Contender with no title or suck 90% of the time with title?

[philly5]

Tanking is actually the worst thing an organization can do to its fans, going into a season with absolutely no hope to win, is devastating. I'm a Laker fan and last year was the toughest its been for me ever since I've been a fan since 96 because I knew we were semi tanking depending on Kobe's health. This season will probably feel a bit better knowing that we are at least trying to compete.

I disagree. The 2013 "tanking" sixers had the exact same odds at winning a title as the previous ten years of 76ers bball when they supposedly were not "tanking"...0%. As an aside, I hate the amount of sh*t philly catches for tearing the team down and rebuilding, a.k.a. tanking. Let's look how the team has taken shape under hinkie. 2013 draft night they trade holiday for noel and 2014 1st(saric), then draft MCW. Then mid-season they dump bum azz Turner and Hawes for a bunch of second round picks + sims. We are talking about evan turner and spencer hawes, these 2 are not close to cornerstones of top level teams, good riddance. The team is light years ahead of where it was just 13 short months ago. The 76ers are certainly not the first team to "tank" and they will not be the last. http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-06-09/1984-nba-draft-rockets-sixers-hakeem-olajuwon-michael-jordan-charles-barkley-pat-williams

[bwgood77]

Most fans probably say the title and being a Bulls fan I can tell you the title is an absolute ecstasy.


But, in reality if you are comparing the far end of each scenario (lets say one or two titles, no dynasty and pretty much 20+ crappy seasons in a 30 year stretch) to a team that (lets say zero titles, makes the playoffs 25 times in a 30 year stretch and has tons of memorable seasons) then I think most fans would have a hell of a lot better fan experience with the 0 title franchise.

Even if they say its all about the title, those fans are probably going to end up more invested and bleeding their franchise colors, also will probably watch a hell of a lot more games out of those 30 years and all in all a better experience.

The 2 title franchise will cling to those title years but in reality most the fans will probably still get pretty disgruntled with their teams constant losing and probably tune in to much less games over the course of that 30 year stretch than the fan of the 0 title but perennial contender franchise.

I agree. As a Suns fan I really started watching them in the mid 80s but REALLY got into them about the time they traded Nance to Cleveland for KJ, and in his second year averaged 20 ppg and 12 apg and led them to the WCF (by the way, what 2nd year player does that? Especially these days. Anyone? They won 28 the year before). Most of the time since then, they have either been in the mix of the 5-8 teams who could win it all (11-12 times) or a 6-8 seed with probably a long shot 7-8 times, barely missed (3 times) and were only really bad three times (luckily the first two times that happened, even though we only got the 9th pick, we took Amare one year and Marion the other. Then Len last summer and who know how he will turn out.

The Warriors I are an example on the other end of the spectrum. Won a title in 75, but in the last 20 years only made the playoffs three times (once in the last two years) and only got past the first round twice (the huge upset of the Mavs in 07 and knocking out Denver last year) but have never really been a contender since 76, the year after they won the finals. But the fans can hang their hat on having that ring and a couple more in the 40s/50s.

I guess most would have preferred being a Warriors fan to a Suns fan all this time but it's just kind of crazy that the mentality is the way it is these days to such a large degree.

[bwgood77]

Winning isn't everything.

But trying to win is.

Exactly

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis[/youtube]

When you start to tank it's tough to build a winning mentality and even though you have a bunch of high picks doesn't guarantee anything....you could be making those high picks for years and years like Charlotte, Minnesota, GS for 20 years, LAC for 20 years, Toronto for a long time, etc...you end up with this instead

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE[/youtube]

[John Long]

Tanking is actually the worst thing an organization can do to its fans, going into a season with absolutely no hope to win, is devastating. I'm a Laker fan and last year was the toughest its been for me ever since I've been a fan since 96 because I knew we were semi tanking depending on Kobe's health. This season will probably feel a bit better knowing that we are at least trying to compete.

I disagree. The 2013 "tanking" sixers had the exact same odds at winning a title as the previous ten years of 76ers bball when they supposedly were not "tanking"...0%. As an aside, I hate the amount of sh*t philly catches for tearing the team down and rebuilding, a.k.a. tanking. Let's look how the team has taken shape under hinkie. 2013 draft night they trade holiday for noel and 2014 1st(saric), then draft MCW. Then mid-season they dump bum azz Turner and Hawes for a bunch of second round picks + sims. We are talking about evan turner and spencer hawes, these 2 are not close to cornerstones of top level teams, good riddance. The team is light years ahead of where it was just 13 short months ago. The 76ers are certainly not the first team to "tank" and they will not be the last. http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-06-09/1984-nba-draft-rockets-sixers-hakeem-olajuwon-michael-jordan-charles-barkley-pat-williams

How? Your team is still **** and your team has no shot at winning for the next 3 years if not more. They could get exciting because you have Noel and next year Embiid will get healthy but thats two losing seasons already. But then by the time Embiid reaches his potential MCW, Noel and some of your young guns will be up for a raise, your GM might not be happy with the results and probably won't think they deserve the max and guess what? you tear the team down again. One quick question how many fans showed up at the Wells Fargo Center last season? How many fans do you think will show up this season? How many games did you watch live? Do you look forward to watching sixers games like you did in the past when they were making the playoffs and you had a good chance at winning a decent amount of games. How quick do your excitement for the season wear off when you are on 5-10 game losing streaks at the beginning of the season after a 4-0 start.

Note: I wasn't taking a shot at the sixers in my initial post because I really could careless what other team tanks or not as long as its not my team tanking, I was only talking about my team from my perspective and from conversations I have had with other laker fans.

[philly5]

Tanking is actually the worst thing an organization can do to its fans, going into a season with absolutely no hope to win, is devastating. I'm a Laker fan and last year was the toughest its been for me ever since I've been a fan since 96 because I knew we were semi tanking depending on Kobe's health. This season will probably feel a bit better knowing that we are at least trying to compete.

I disagree. The 2013 "tanking" sixers had the exact same odds at winning a title as the previous ten years of 76ers bball when they supposedly were not "tanking"...0%. As an aside, I hate the amount of sh*t philly catches for tearing the team down and rebuilding, a.k.a. tanking. Let's look how the team has taken shape under hinkie. 2013 draft night they trade holiday for noel and 2014 1st(saric), then draft MCW. Then mid-season they dump bum azz Turner and Hawes for a bunch of second round picks + sims. We are talking about evan turner and spencer hawes, these 2 are not close to cornerstones of top level teams, good riddance. The team is light years ahead of where it was just 13 short months ago. The 76ers are certainly not the first team to "tank" and they will not be the last. http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-06-09/1984-nba-draft-rockets-sixers-hakeem-olajuwon-michael-jordan-charles-barkley-pat-williams

How? Your team is still **** and your team has no shot at winning for the next 3 years if not more. They could get exciting because you have Noel and next year Embiid will get healthy but thats two losing seasons already. But then by the time Embiid reaches his potential MCW, Noel and some of your young guns will be up for a raise, your GM might not be happy with the results and probably won't think they deserve the max and guess what? you tear the team down again. One quick question how many fans showed up at the Wells Fargo Center last season? How many fans do you think will show up this season? How many games did you watch live? Do you look forward to watching sixers games like you did in the past when they were making the playoffs and you had a good chance at winning a decent amount of games. How quick do your excitement for the season wear off when you are on 5-10 game losing streaks at the beginning of the season after a 4-0 start.

Note: I wasn't taking a shot at the sixers in my initial post because I really could careless what other team tanks or not as long as its not my team tanking, I was only talking about my team from my perspective and from conversations I have had with other laker fans.

Ok, so tell me EXACTLY what they should have done in the last year.

[Westbreezy]

So the question is really: Would you rather be a Celtics fan or a Mavs fan (if the team never won in 2011)?

[sunskerr]

If a team is successful year in and year out (as the Suns seem to be) then you would expect them to win a championship eventually, simply based on results. The Suns are quite the anomaly when it comes to this, having the fourth best historical win percentage with no championship wins. On that fact alone (that they have the 4th best winning percentage) one would expect the Suns to have a championship(s) even without any prior knowledge of their playoffs/finals success (or lack thereof).

Of activate franchises, only 13 championships total have been won in the history of the nba by teams with franchise winning %s of below .500. This total of 13 includes the Knicks who sit at .499.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/#active::8

When you look at it from such a black and white perspective of either winning a championship or not winning a championship, I think the reaction is going to be a little skewed. But clearly being able to contend year in and year out lends itself to more championships. If losing on purpose was successful I would argue that there would be a better distribution of championships. I also believe that the best way to give yourself the best chance of winning a championship is to do well year in and year out (and doing so requires using both the draft and free agency).

That being said, teams do have highs and lows spanning years. I have not looked into it but its a safe bet to say the teams with higher franchise win % have shorter lows. I also do not know how much the team franchise win % vs number of championships is distorted by the early success of the Lakers/Celtics in the league's formative years, as well as any changes in the draft format may have had.

[John Long]

I disagree. The 2013 "tanking" sixers had the exact same odds at winning a title as the previous ten years of 76ers bball when they supposedly were not "tanking"...0%. As an aside, I hate the amount of sh*t philly catches for tearing the team down and rebuilding, a.k.a. tanking. Let's look how the team has taken shape under hinkie. 2013 draft night they trade holiday for noel and 2014 1st(saric), then draft MCW. Then mid-season they dump bum azz Turner and Hawes for a bunch of second round picks + sims. We are talking about evan turner and spencer hawes, these 2 are not close to cornerstones of top level teams, good riddance. The team is light years ahead of where it was just 13 short months ago. The 76ers are certainly not the first team to "tank" and they will not be the last. http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2014-06-09/1984-nba-draft-rockets-sixers-hakeem-olajuwon-michael-jordan-charles-barkley-pat-williams

How? Your team is still **** and your team has no shot at winning for the next 3 years if not more. They could get exciting because you have Noel and next year Embiid will get healthy but thats two losing seasons already. But then by the time Embiid reaches his potential MCW, Noel and some of your young guns will be up for a raise, your GM might not be happy with the results and probably won't think they deserve the max and guess what? you tear the team down again. One quick question how many fans showed up at the Wells Fargo Center last season? How many fans do you think will show up this season? How many games did you watch live? Do you look forward to watching sixers games like you did in the past when they were making the playoffs and you had a good chance at winning a decent amount of games. How quick do your excitement for the season wear off when you are on 5-10 game losing streaks at the beginning of the season after a 4-0 start.

Note: I wasn't taking a shot at the sixers in my initial post because I really could careless what other team tanks or not as long as its not my team tanking, I was only talking about my team from my perspective and from conversations I have had with other laker fans.

Ok, so tell me EXACTLY what they should have done in the last year.

I don't know know but fans do need to demand more from their organization's front office to put a better product on the floor, that's why the GMs get paid the big bucks.

[baubo]

Ok, so tell me EXACTLY what they should have done in the last year.

Kept Hawes and re-sign him to a $50mil contract. Kept Turner for $5mil/yr. Trade for Josh Smith. Sign Isaiah Thomas. You know, anything that can get you 30-40 wins because I'm sure that's what 99% of fans want their teams in Philly situation to do.

[bwgood77]

Ok, so tell me EXACTLY what they should have done in the last year.

Well, in my opinion, I think they had a pretty good young team (of course the trade for Bynum messed it up) but I guess it depends on how good and creative you think your GM is.

For example, the Suns barely missed the playoffs but ended up with TJ Warren who some think could be better than Jabari Parker (was in college).

It depends on if you want to create a winning mentality.

I am really interested though to see how it all works out for Philly. I thought it was an interesting move last year, because trading an all star for a couple of picks is risky. I know many pundits thought it was a great move, and it might be, but who knows how good Noel and Saric will end up being? The could be the next Thabeet and Vesely. I know, that's doubtful, but you never know.

I think the Noel and Embiid picks were good, and I think the Saric pick was kind of odd, because it means you are pretty much punting away the next two seasons completely. But I imagine Hinkie has his eye on Mudiay for next year and if he gets him that will be an interesting squad. Many of the top guys next year are bigs, so if they miss on Mudiay it will be interesting. I'm sure a good 2/3 will emerge at some point this season.

You just never know how these guys will pan out. I'm interested to see.

[Liver_Pooty]

Ill take being in the mix every year way before a ring every 30 years or so. 30 years is an insanely long time.. By in the mix I am assuming you mean a perennial top 3-4 seed and not a treadmill team.

[Rupert Murdoch]

Without question, I would rather be a contender with no titles than suck 90% of the time with one title. I root for a baseball team (Baltimore Orioles) that had 14 consecutive losing seasons and even if they win the World Series this year, it still won't take away the pain of all those losing seasons. There's no worse feeling in sports than constant losing. It feels like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You have to deal with opposing fan bases laughing at your team and you can do nothing to defend them. It's just terrible. I would take being a consistent contender every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[BigtimeNBAfan]

Stockton and Malone have statues outside of their arena in Utah despite never winning a title. Everybody wants titles, but there is something for always having winning seasons and being in contention year in and year out. Having one title and sucking for 20 years would be great for one moment, but miserable for the rest of it.

[marcusaurelius]

This is an interesting choice between two scenarios. However, you do realize that many/most teams are bad most of the time and never win a title. So where is that choice for the fan?

[Rupert Murdoch]

This is an interesting choice between two scenarios. However, you do realize that many/most teams are bad most of the time and never win a title. So where is that choice for the fan?

Let's put it this way. If the Clippers win the championship this year, would you rather have been a Clippers fan for the last 25 years or a Phoenix Suns fan? I know which choice I would pick and it sure ain't being a Clippers fan.

[bwgood77]

Ill take being in the mix every year way before a ring every 30 years or so. 30 years is an insanely long time.. By in the mix I am assuming you mean a perennial top 3-4 seed and not a treadmill team.

Well I think it would be more like I outlined for the Suns in one of my recent posts. Over a 25 year period, the were contenders about 12 times, a bottom seed long shot 7 times, barely missed playoffs 3 times, and stunk three times (luckily got Amare and Marion with the two picks, even with the 9th pick both times). Now that I think of it, it's crazy we never had better than the 9th pick for that long until last year.

[bwgood77]

This is an interesting choice between two scenarios. However, you do realize that many/most teams are bad most of the time and never win a title. So where is that choice for the fan?

Let's put it this way. If the Clippers win the championship this year, would you rather have been a Clippers fan for the last 25 years or a Phoenix Suns fan? I know which choice I would pick and it sure ain't being a Clippers fan.

Over the entire 25 years, a Suns fan no question. This year I would obviously rather be a Clips fan, but I wouldn't choose the Clips fan for 25 years just because of this year. And the thing is, they don't have any better chance than the Suns did at least 5-8 times over those 25 years, so good luck. Even if you are really good, it still takes some luck and there are probably at least 3 teams with better odds of winning it all than the Clips, and few others with close to equal odds. So a 15% chance is still a long shot.

[Liver_Pooty]

Ill take being in the mix every year way before a ring every 30 years or so. 30 years is an insanely long time.. By in the mix I am assuming you mean a perennial top 3-4 seed and not a treadmill team.

Well I think it would be more like I outlined for the Suns in one of my recent posts. Over a 25 year period, the were contenders about 12 times, a bottom seed long shot 7 times, barely missed playoffs 3 times, and stunk three times (luckily got Amare and Marion with the two picks, even with the 9th pick both times). Now that I think of it, it's crazy we never had better than the 9th pick for that long until last year.

Try being a Bobcats fan the past 10 years.

Hornets had a decent little run in the 90s though.

[RRFB]

I'd much rather be competitive year after year. Being a Nuggets fan for the majority of the '90s was just awful. We were so bad for so many years that one title wouldn't have been worth it if we had to go straight back to being bad. Playing in the playoffs for ten straight years was 1000x more enjoyable even though we only came remotely close to a championship one of those years.

[Gmoney3]

The other huge aspect of this scenario is the age of the fan. If you were in your 20's and absolutely loved the early 80's 76ers then being that age and able to fully follow a championship ring winning squad might be worth the abundant mediocre years the 76ers have had in the last 30 years.

So a 25 year old in 1983 might rather be a 76ers fan than the Suns who have had tons of fun teams but no ring.

But, if you were 5 years old or maybe not even born in 1983 then good chance you would rather trade spots with a Suns fan in this time period.



A similar scenario off the top of my head was my dad was in HS for the 1985 Bears and he wouldn't trade being a Bears fan for anything. I think because of the dominance of the 85 Bears in a time period in his life that he understood football and was a rabid fan means more to him than if the Bears were to win back to back titles right now. So, no chance he would trade his Bears fanhood even with all the crap teams we endured of the 90's for another team that was consistently good but never got the ring.

But, me being born in 89 that ring will obviously never mean as much to me (considering I wasn't even alive, but of course I love the 85 Bears) as it means to my pops.