Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Pace is about possessions, not shot attempts. No one is saying West could take 22-23 shots in this era, but instead that what West DID do in his career wasn't at that pace.
ushvinder88 wrote:Dirk will be a good candidate for spots 15-20, but I think its way too early to discuss him. Just look at his head to head numbers against duncan and garnett, its pretty one sided against him. They often got the better of dirk in their matchups. Larry Bird and Kobe are the two names that should be debated here, but of course this is a kobe hating website, so he will drop off on this list.
ushvinder88 wrote:Dirk will be a good candidate for spots 15-20, but I think its way too early to discuss him. Just look at his head to head numbers against duncan and garnett, its pretty one sided against him. They often got the better of dirk in their matchups. Larry Bird and Kobe are the two names that should be debated here, but of course this is a kobe hating website, so he will drop off on this list.
Honestly I would be pretty shocked if kobe doesnt get voted 11th or 12th, at the end of the day alot of these guys here dont have enough playoff runs past the 2nd round. All time rankings should be based on what happened, not hypotheticals. If Bill Russell and Magic are getting voted in early despite the fact that both had stacked teams which inflates thier greatness, then why is kobe getting punished?
Chuck Texas wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
Dirk
I've only seen Dirk talked about to say either 1) Bird was like him but better, or 2) why isn't Dirk being talked about?
I think its fair to simply say no one thought Dirk was worthy of being in the top 10 so no one bothered making Dirk-related posts. If I'm remembering correctly he hasn't received a single vote yet.
And I mentioned him once or twice in relation to KG just because I personally find it hard to see a meaningful gap between the 2 player to the degree you and others do. So I think if we talk KG we should talk Dirk If you had KG in the top 3, I think? and Dirk somewhere outside of 11 that's a big gap and so your point #2 looms large and you wouldn't see the need. I think more and more posters are starting to see Dirk compare more favorably to KG tho I think still clearly behind him in most eyes.
I actually made a couple of small Dirk posts in teh #10 thread not to make a case for him because I don't think he deserved it, but simply to start getting him into the conversation. If we don't talk about him at all for a dozen threads and then those of us who view him higher than some others who have been getting a lot of traction try and bring him up its naturally going to be harder to get people to be open to Dirk when comparing him to people like KG who have been in the conversation almost from the beginning.
I will continue to sprinkle in some more posts about Dirk that aren't an attempt to persuade people to vote for him but more to just give some more perspective on his career that I think frequently gets lost because we have a few key Dirk talking points and we never go much further than that. I think I can add some other things to at least think about especially as it relates to the other players of his era. I hope to do the same with Dallas-era Nash another kind of lost zone that deserves a longer look imo.
But as a big Dirk guy I'm still convinced there are players who deserve to be ranked higher so I won't be going too in depth on him yet because I don't want to be repeating a bunch of posts for 3 or 4 or 5 more threads when he doesnt get voted in.
Moonbeam wrote:I think it's a little unfair to use TS% in comparing modern players with the benefit of the 3-point line to players from before the 3-point line. I imagine that Kobe's advantage in TS% would evaporate and perhaps even become a deficit in comparison to Jerry West.
Does anyone have the league-average TS% figures from West's prime and Kobe's prime?
For the record, I'm leaning to Jerry West for #11, but my mind is far from made up. I know win shares aren't perfect, but West has a pretty clear edge over Kobe there, and it grows further for postseason play.
tsherkin wrote:GC Pantalones wrote:Its not the misses (even though I do believe in the Kobe assist. I've chucked up crap knowing a teammate will pull it down if I missed) its the makes. A missed Kobe shot and Fisher shot is that same but Kobe is missing less than Fisher. If Kobe takes a shot at 40% that his teammates makes at 33% he's helping the team if that's the best look they can get that possession.
The wording there is off. From 01-10, Kobe was MISSING 12 shots per game (and similar in the years which followed). Fisher's career-high FGA/g is 10.8, one of two seasons with double-digit attempts, so Kobe is missing a lot more.
Yeah, Fisher is worse inside of the arc, but a bad shot wouldn't be a lot better dor Kobe than Fisher when you consider the actual percentages involved. Kobe brings valuable shot generation and is noticeably more efficient than a guy like Iverson, but your 33% stat is arbitrary and not relevant.
tsherkin wrote:GC Pantalones wrote:Well overall Aldridge still had a ORTG you wouldn't expect from the best player and first option on a great offense.
Only if you look at nothing but team ORTG and assume; LMA rocked a 108 this year, uncharacteristically low, probably due to usage, but again, team construction made that happen. Few turnovers plus lots of threes and offensive rebounding. He blew on the offensive glass, but 7.2% TOG against 29.8% USG matters, a lot.
Portland was about team, not so much individual offensive excellence.
That said, Lillard? 20.7 ppg, second leading scorer. 116 ORTG against 25.0% USG, and that certainly mattered as well, as did matthews and batum (as supporting cast, 113-118 ORTG).
Food for thought. It takes a lot more than usual to build a great offense that way, more than a first-pass look otherwise indicates.
Melodabeast wrote:this spot should be go to bryant.
DannyNoonan1221 wrote:GC Pantalones wrote: General consensus, my thinking, and even the RPOY project puts Kobe over KG from 2001-2010. I mean a few thought KG was better at the time but the most thought Kobe was better.
The difference doesn't have to be much for it to be clear. 2 is clearly over 3 but on a infinite scale its a small difference - but a distance nonetheless.
With West he's great but he's not a Kobe. It was a weaker era and his team was stacked. With Moses I see his game, what he accomplished, etc. and come out impressed but his impact doesn't seem to be so amazing when looking at how teams did without him and with him outside of 83.
Alright, so Moses falls behind of Kobe because of team success. Fair enough. West played in a weaker era- not going to fight you there. I am not giving you the "stacked team" argument though. Kobe won 3 straight titles with Shaq and PJ. Not sure how much more stacked his team could be. And would Kobe be here if he only had two titles?
Also, don't agree that a small difference is "noticeably" or "flat out". I don't mean to nitpick, but it seems very generic to just claim he was better and not support it. Again, while KG supporters have moved him up on my list almost 10 spots, I am still picking Kobe over him. But to say he is clearly better seems a little near-sighted; it is very difficult in my opinion to distinguish how much impact KG's defense really has on the overall game in order to make up what he lacks on offense. Not only is it harder to track defensive impact, but the media and general fans love people who can score points. Add that up with being in LA, winning titles with Shaq and coming straight out of high school playing the same position as a retiring MJ and you have the dream situation for anyone who wants a relatively inflated legacy.
Melodabeast wrote:Spoiler:
Baller2014 wrote:Melodabeast wrote:this spot should be go to bryant.
Welcome new poster.
If you think we should vote on Kobe, could you please explain what sort of penalty you're applying for his huge negative off-court intangibles (see my post on page 1). Nobody has done this since it was brought up way back in thread #5.
Baller2014 wrote:Melodabeast wrote:this spot should be go to bryant.
Welcome new poster.
If you think we should vote on Kobe, could you please explain what sort of penalty you're applying for his huge negative off-court intangibles (see my post on page 1). Nobody has done this since it was brought up way back in thread #5.
ardee wrote:Baller2014 wrote:Melodabeast wrote:this spot should be go to bryant.
Welcome new poster.
If you think we should vote on Kobe, could you please explain what sort of penalty you're applying for his huge negative off-court intangibles (see my post on page 1). Nobody has done this since it was brought up way back in thread #5.
It's been repeated time and time again that those off court issues are the reason he wasn't voted for at no. 6 or 7 and has actually dropped this low.
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GC Pantalones wrote:tsherkin wrote:GC Pantalones wrote:Its not the misses (even though I do believe in the Kobe assist. I've chucked up crap knowing a teammate will pull it down if I missed) its the makes. A missed Kobe shot and Fisher shot is that same but Kobe is missing less than Fisher. If Kobe takes a shot at 40% that his teammates makes at 33% he's helping the team if that's the best look they can get that possession.
The wording there is off. From 01-10, Kobe was MISSING 12 shots per game (and similar in the years which followed). Fisher's career-high FGA/g is 10.8, one of two seasons with double-digit attempts, so Kobe is missing a lot more.
Yeah, Fisher is worse inside of the arc, but a bad shot wouldn't be a lot better dor Kobe than Fisher when you consider the actual percentages involved. Kobe brings valuable shot generation and is noticeably more efficient than a guy like Iverson, but your 33% stat is arbitrary and not relevant.
I mean he'd make a late clock jumper at a more efficient rate than Fisher (and he'd consistently create a better look). That's extremely valuable and it would make your numbers worse than if you took less of those shots but it doesn't make you less valuable.