Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Harmoo]

What's with these horrible trade ideas concerning Taj for Kevin Martin ?

The Wolves want to dump Martin, there's no reason why Dunleavy (and whatever it takes to cover salary differential) wouldn't get it done.

As for Dieng, he's bad with some okay upside.

Unless the Bulls are getting back Love, they shouldn't be moving Taj, Mirotic or the White Larry Bird.

Taj is to much to give up for a 6"7, 19 ppg sg shooting 38% from three.

Dieng is bad but could be OKAY at some point

McDermott is the white larry bird

anddddddd the overrating of Bulls players continue all the while underrating every other teams pieces.

That's nonsense.

Kevin Martin is not some second option or some dirk (pun) for the hole that is the lack of second offensive creator.

I'm guessing that you're just looking at stats and not at his game. His handles aren't anything to write home about, his shot is nice but he's not some go-to guy when the shotclock is winding down unless he's baiting the refs with his rip-thru move.

The Bulls primarily need another player that can handle the ball for extended periods of time, create plays for others (Martin is a mediocre passer and unwilling) and when the shotclock is winding down, take his defender off the dribble and create a quality shot.

Want an example? Go watch the 2013 OKC playoffs, he disappeared when he was required to step into a role outside of "heres ball pls shoot now"

He's a good shooter and that's about it.

I'm not even going to discuss his salary, or his sieve-like defense.

There's a reason why Minnesota is dumping him for change and it's not because he's the starting SG on a championship roster.

I watch an idiotically large amount of different team's games and I don't believe I'm underrating Kevin Martin.

[Shill]

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm a big believer in Snell and McDermott. I wouldn't be surprised if this is our lineup in two years:

C Noah
PF Mirotic
SF McDermott
SG Snell
PG Rose

If the young gunners pan out, that is a devastating lineup to deal with.

[pb-ceo]

Only two ways I trade Gibson to Minnesota.

1) We get back Love.
2) We get back Martin and Dieng.

I'm very high on Dieng. I think him and Mirotic will be a perfect compliment on the 2nd unit.

Rose/Hinrich/Brooks
Martin/Snell
Butler/McDermott/Dunleavy
Gasol/Mirotic
Noah/Dieng

I think that is ECF favorites even if Love goes to Cleveland. Those pieces fit very well together. Plus we have a clear succession plan at basically every position.

How does this work in a 3 team deal not 100% sure. But probably something like:

Bulls out: Gibson
Bulls in: Martin and Dieng

Cleveland in: Love
Cleveland out: Wiggins, Bennett, Waiters, & 1st rd pick

Minny out: Love, Martin, Dieng
Minny in: Wiggins, Gibson, Waiters, Bennett, and Cleveland 1st

MINN has no leverage to get all that. they have squat. Klove has ALL the leverage. All he has to do is say "I will only sign extension with X" and MINN must deal with them. there is no way CLE is going to give up a #1 wiggins beennett and waiters for Llove who they could just sign when he becomes a FA. MINN is posturing. They are eventually going to have to get real. The deal is going to likely be wiggins bennet and a #1. If you listen to most recent zach lowe podcast he suggests that MINN would be lucky to get wiggins for klove, considering the history of these situations when a player has all the leverage.

MINN has a lot of incentive to deal love before the season starts. If he is on the roster he will be a massive distraction. MINN is in a position to start fresh and rebrand the team, and begin to build around wiggins and bennet. There is immense value for MINN and CLE to get this trade done before camp starts. If love is in a MINN uniform come opening day it will be a bitter reminder that MINN has failed as an organization and when fans go to games they will be cheering for a player who wants OUT on the next train.

[Shill]

What's with these horrible trade ideas concerning Taj for Kevin Martin ?

The Wolves want to dump Martin, there's no reason why Dunleavy (and whatever it takes to cover salary differential) wouldn't get it done.

As for Dieng, he's bad with some okay upside.

Unless the Bulls are getting back Love, they shouldn't be moving Taj, Mirotic or the White Larry Bird.

Taj is to much to give up for a 6"7, 19 ppg sg shooting 38% from three.

Dieng is bad but could be OKAY at some point

McDermott is the white larry bird

anddddddd the overrating of Bulls players continue all the while underrating every other teams pieces.

That's nonsense.

Kevin Martin is not some second option or some dirk (pun) for the hole that is the lack of second offensive creator.

I'm guessing that you're just looking at stats and not at his game. His handles aren't anything to write home about, his shot is nice but he's not some go-to guy when the shotclock is winding down unless he's baiting the refs with his rip-thru move.

The Bulls primarily need another player that can handle the ball for extended periods of time, create plays for others (Martin is a mediocre passer and unwilling) and when the shotclock is winding down, take his defender off the dribble and create a quality shot.

Want an example? Go watch the 2013 OKC playoffs, he disappeared when he was required to step into a role outside of "heres ball pls shoot now"

He's a good shooter and that's about it.

I'm not even going to discuss his salary, or his sieve-like defense.

There's a reason why Minnesota is dumping him for change and it's not because he's the starting SG on a championship roster.

I watch an idiotically large amount of different team's games and I don't believe I'm underrating Kevin Martin.

You're not.

I am not a Martin fan AT ALL. I see what you see.

[Concept Coop]

We wouldnt just be getting Martin. Another SG and an athletic big from either team is a deal u don't reject in my eyes.

You guys dont want to lose Taj, under any circumstances. I get it lol.

Which is most valuable:

A- Taj, McD, Snell (Stay put) -- CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
B - Taj, Martin (Trade McD+Snell for Martin)--CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
C - Martin, Thompson, Waiters (Trade Taj+McD+Snell for Martin, Thompson, Waiters)--Help CLE get Love and pay lux tax.

I don't see how anyone can pick option 3.

[Southpaw]

Turning Taj and MDJ into Martin, Waiters and Dieng is a good deal for us. Even if it means Love is heading to CLE.
Martin and Dieng will mitigate the loss of Taj and MDJ while we get a shot at turning Waiters into a professional basketball player. Thibs and the gang can do it IMO.

[Concept Coop]

MINN has no leverage to get all that. they have squat.

Look at the leverage that NYC had with Melo this off-season. Look at the leverage DEN had when they delt Melo to NY in the first place--at the deadline no less.

MINN has plenty of leverage. If Love doesn't want to walk away from 20+ million dollars, he'll need MINN to play ball. He might prefer CLE to CHI (or GS, or LA, etc) today, but if CHI allows him an extra 20+ million--that'll change. That is the leverage that MINN has over CLE.

[Krausenator]

I'd do the Taj + MDJ for Martin/Waiters/TT and/or Dieng....

Since we ain't getting LeBron, no more Melo, Love looks unlikely, Durant would favour DC if he leaves OKC (in the future FA windows)... I fell we could field Gasol in for his contract and try to homerun Anthony Davis as our next franchise guys a few years from now (hopefully he'd want to play for his home team)...

If Jabari pans out perhaps chase him too.....


Oh pipe dreams......

[bad knees]

People don't like Martin. Well, let's turn to tearing down Waiters for a few pages.

Taj for Waiters and Dieng works too, salary wise.

Waiters can create his own shot, and would be dynamite on our second team, along with Hinrich, Mc3, Mirotic and Dieng.

He's a head case, but seems like a prime candidate for the Thibs/Noah/Rose/Butler/MDJ maturity school.

So how about Taj for Waiters, Dieng and a Cavs 1st?

[pb-ceo]

MINN has no leverage to get all that. they have squat.

Look at the leverage that NYC had with Melo this off-season. Look at the leverage DEN had when they delt Melo to NY in the first place--at the deadline no less.

MINN has plenty of leverage. If Love doesn't want to walk away from 20+ million dollars, he'll need MINN to play ball. He might prefer CLE to CHI today, but if CHI allows him an extra 20+ million--that'll change. That is the leverage that MINN has over CLE.

MELO wanted to be in NY and that organisation made a horrific mistake by dismantling the team to get MELO. it was a disastrous decision to give up that much. DEN "played" for fools one of the worst FO in the association. LOVE wants out. He wants no part of MINN. That's a distraction for MINN, who needs to start fresh and re-brand. MINN has no leverage. They are posturing and in the end they will deal with CLE because that's where love wants to go. And it happens that they can potentially get a superstar to MINN who would never come as a FA.

[Concept Coop]

People don't like Martin. Well, let's turn to tearing down Waiters for a few pages.

He was never worthy of the pick used on him. Without the appeal of getting a "former top 5 pick"--what value does he carry with us fans? Just look at his numbers--he's not very good, costs too much, and is already crying about coming off the bench.

You don't take him for free at $5, let alone send Taj Gibson for him.

[Shill]

People don't like Martin. Well, let's turn to tearing down Waiters for a few pages.

Taj for Waiters and Dieng works too, salary wise.

Waiters can create his own shot, and would be dynamite on our second team, along with Hinrich, Mc3, Mirotic and Dieng.

He's a head case, but seems like a prime candidate for the Thibs/Noah/Rose/Butler/MDJ maturity school.

So how about Taj for Waiters, Dieng and a Cavs 1st?

I'm part of the fringe that believes we have enough right now.

However, I do think we have a dilemma with Taj and Butler down the road. They're defensive specialists who might see their roles/value diminish rather quickly.

[DanTown8587]

We wouldnt just be getting Martin. Another SG and an athletic big from either team is a deal u don't reject in my eyes.

You guys dont want to lose Taj, under any circumstances. I get it lol.

Which is most valuable:

A- Taj, McD, Snell (Stay put) -- CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
B - Taj, Martin (Trade McD+Snell for Martin)--CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
C - Martin, Thompson, Waiters (Trade Taj+McD+Snell for Martin, Thompson, Waiters)--Help CLE get Love and pay lux tax.

I don't see how anyone can pick option 3.

Because it's not like the Bulls are facilitating Love to Cleveland, they're simply going to get something out of the deal and help themselves.

This isn't like Chicago was called in to make a deal happen that wasn't going to happen, Minnesota wanted to see if they could upgrade the Thompson/Waiters package and for them, that means Taj.

People keep telling me about Taj and what's his role on this team? 20 minutes a night as a defensive big? Martin has the role of being able to come in and give you scoring. Is he some elite scorer like Harden? Of course he isn't.

Taj Gibson has played 44 career playoff games and scored 15+ points only twice (Washington Game 2, 4)

Martin had a "terrible, disappearing" playoffs and scored 15+ 5 times and was +42 for the playoffs in OKC in 11 games.

The Bulls have no one who can score 20 feet away from the basket besides Rose and hopefully McDermott. Martin might not be Wade/Harden, but he can at least score for himself away from the rim.

Durant/Westbrook in 2013
5864 points in 5144 possessions (114.0)
2530 points in 2136 possessions with Martin (118.4)
3334 points in 3008 possessions without Martin (110.8)

[Concept Coop]

MELO wanted to be in NY and that organisation made a horrific mistake by dismantling the team to get MELO. it was a disastrous decision to give up that much. DEN "played" for fools one of the worst FO in the association. LOVE wants out. He wants no part of MINN. That's a distraction for MINN, who needs to start fresh and re-brand. MINN has no leverage. They are posturing and in the end they will deal with CLE because that's where love wants to go. And it happens that they can potentially get a superstar to MINN who would never come as a FA.

Melo wanted NY and the money--that's why NY made the deal. They couldn't trust Melo to pick NY over DEN, CHI, and LA (and whomever else was in play) at the expense of 20+ million dollars.

Same situation; Love might want Cleveland over Chicago, LAL, and GS today. But if Minny is only willing to play ball with CHI--Love would have to walk away from 20 million to go to CLE over CHI. That's 20 million dollars worth of leverage and nothing to write off.

[bad knees]

We wouldnt just be getting Martin. Another SG and an athletic big from either team is a deal u don't reject in my eyes.

You guys dont want to lose Taj, under any circumstances. I get it lol.

Which is most valuable:

A- Taj, McD, Snell (Stay put) -- CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
B - Taj, Martin (Trade McD+Snell for Martin)--CLE doesn't get Love/Pays more for Love
C - Martin, Thompson, Waiters (Trade Taj+McD+Snell for Martin, Thompson, Waiters)--Help CLE get Love and pay lux tax.

I don't see how anyone can pick option 3.

You keep saying that Taj/MDJ for Martin/Thompson/Waiters puts the Bulls into the lux tax. Not this year, correct? The trade only adds about $5M to the Bulls total salary this year, and they are more than $10M from the $77M tax line. Are you talking about future years? Because: (1) the cap is about to explode; and (2) paying the tax for a couple of years doesn't matter if we avoid the tax this upcoming year, because avoiding the tax this past year and the upcoming year will take us out of Repeater Tax jeopardy for at least two seasons.

[Concept Coop]

Because it's not like the Bulls are facilitating Love to Cleveland, they're simply going to get something out of the deal and help themselves.

We can get Martin without moving Taj. So, if it's a 3 way deal--yes; that's exactly what we're doing--facilitating Love to Cleveland.

[Rerisen]

I'm part of the fringe that believes we have enough right now.

Just curious what kind of year that statement constitutes for players that will have to be our 2nd and 3rd options. Because to me, it would have to be something like this at minimum:

Gasol, 2nd option: 19 PPG, .565 TS%
McDermott, 3rd option (becomes starter): 15 PPG, .570 TS%, 60% assisted

Both targets seem lofty and beyond my expectations for those players this year.

[MrFortune3]

I wouldn't say Minnesota has no leverage and that Kevin Love has it all.
There are only a few teams with the assets that Minny will require to deal him.
Cleveland is desperate to appease James and ensure he doesn't leave again. This gives Minny all the leverage they need.
The only place they can get a potential superstar is through dealing with Cleveland.

Me personally, I would have hung up the phone as soon as they uttered An, wouldn't even let them get to the drew part of his name.
You will end up sacrificing far too much to get Love, however I can understand the temptation of having Love, Irving and James on the team as your core moving forward.

[bad knees]

People don't like Martin. Well, let's turn to tearing down Waiters for a few pages.

He was never worthy of the pick used on him. Without the appeal of getting a "former top 5 pick"--what value does he carry with us fans? Just look at his numbers--he's not very good, costs too much, and is already crying about coming off the bench.

You don't take him for free at $5, let alone send Taj Gibson for him.

He averaged 16 pts, 3 reb, and 2.8 assists in 30 minutes per game last year. He shot 37% from 3. He creates his own shot. And he's 22. He needs to get his head out of his a** and develop a better attitude about team-first and defense. Who better to make that happen than Thibs/Noah/Rose/Butler?

[pb-ceo]

MELO wanted to be in NY and that organisation made a horrific mistake by dismantling the team to get MELO. it was a disastrous decision to give up that much. DEN "played" for fools one of the worst FO in the association. LOVE wants out. He wants no part of MINN. That's a distraction for MINN, who needs to start fresh and re-brand. MINN has no leverage. They are posturing and in the end they will deal with CLE because that's where love wants to go. And it happens that they can potentially get a superstar to MINN who would never come as a FA.

Melo wanted NY and the money--that's why NY made the deal. They couldn't trust Melo to pick NY over DEN, CHI, and LA (and whomever else was in play) at the expense of 20+ million dollars.

Same situation; Love might want Cleveland over Chicago, LAL, and GS today. But if Minny is only willing to play ball with CHI--Love would have to walk away from 20 million to go to CLE over CHI. That's 20 million dollars worth of leverage and nothing to write off.

except MINN "only wants to deal with CHI" is a fantasy created by the mind of overzealous bulls fans. MINN already leaked that they prefer the CLE deal to any that is on the table. And the Love camp has already leaked he would like to play with Lebron in Cle.

These fantasy three way trades are simply that. Something that capologists are conjuring up from their vivid imaginations. Remember what we were going to offer Melo? a Short term deal as a bridge to a max contract with the team when the salary cap gets raised. That's what Love could hold over MINN if they try to play hardball. Love is gone whether they trade him or not. If Love was simply about the money he would stay in MINN where they can offer him the most.

MINN can either have wiggins or let Love go for nothing. Another team must be certain that Love will extend with them or they don't give up those assets. And they won't have that certainty. All signs point to a CLE MINN deal in 30-45 days.