Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Rerisen]

His 19 PPG and efficiency numbers are as hollow as they come.

I have no clue what this even means.

Martin has been scoring high volume on high efficiency in this league since he came in. While he would average a couple less on great teams, it doesn't mean he doesn't have legit scoring talent.

I'd like to see Mike Dunleavy average 24 points on the Kings, or even 20 on the Rockets.

It's not his fault he was asked to be a first option over his head, no more than it's Deng's that we asked him to be a 2nd over his head.

You can say he's bad on defense, or doesn't rebound or critique other parts of his game, but that has nothing to do with the value of his points.

Hollow points to me are someone like Corey Maggette who makes his team worse on offense despite good numbers. Martin made his team's offense better.

The wolves had a 112.2 OFF RTG with Martin on the floor. That's better than the Spurs and Heat. I wish we could find some 'hollow' scoring like that.

[Polynice4Pippen]

They value him as an asset, a key player. But they obviously don't feel that they're set for the next 5 years at starting PF.

Whilst all that may true, Gibson is being linked to names such as Love, a player better than him. They may be prepared to move him, so long as it makes sense.

Martin is not a better player than Taj so i doubt that would ever happen.

Martin is better than any SG on our roster though. Meanwhile Bulls would still be strong at PF with Gasol and Mirotic. Taj is clearly expendable. So are Pau and Niko for that matter. 3 PF's and no SG's doesn't help anyone. If we got Thompson or Dieng back in a Taj trade I'd do it.

[Stratmaster]

This is the part Gar/Pax apparently don't understand since they've brought in an all-star PF this offseason, another highly touted PF, and are now inquiring about yet another PF.

The thing is they know just like we do Taj is not just limited to PF and we don't really know if Love has been the target or if it's someone else. I just think the FO would be crazy to think we could Love without giving up McD and Nikola 2 guys that they worked so hard to get.

I'm a fan of Taj. But it's hard for me to believe the front office is as sold on Taj as many around here claim when they continue to pursue and bring in one PF after another. Certainly they aren't sold on Taj as a starter.

Exactly. They never have been sold on Taj as a starter. I've never been sold on Taj as a starter. They got Gasol because they feel they are in a position to win now and don't want to have Mirotic starting yet, but they are clearly looking at Mirotic and hoping he will be the long term starter. I would love to have Mirotic starting (if he pans out) with Taj as the backup. It just doesn't look like the timing and situation turned out right for that to happen.

[TheGOATRises007]

What's the latest guys?

[AKfanatic]

This is the part Gar/Pax apparently don't understand since they've brought in an all-star PF this offseason, another highly touted PF, and are now inquiring about yet another PF.

They brought in a Euro they've had the rights to for awhile, drafted him probably envisioning an eventual combo with taj, also drafted before Taj improved offensively. They brought in a vet that plays both C and PF. I don't think either of those moves say "we don't think Taj is very good". Funny how much fans downplay the same guy they worried about getting on a defensive team and taking the Bulls into the lux. tax, a guy that had a legitimate case for sixth man of the year. Taj is very talented and seems to play well in big games, that's something that can't be overstated enough. He plays with a chip on his shoulder and an aggression in big games that I wish all our players played with. I'm all for trading him for some real value, Kevin Martin isn't it. Kevin Martin and pieces? Then it could get interesting.

I'll give you the Mirotic signing, although he was perfect trade bait if they felt they were set at PF. The Gasol signing makes it pretty clear Gar/Pax don't believe Taj is a starter. I mean it's not like Portland or the Clippers would've gone after starting PF's. You have Taj, you have Mirotic, but you still go after Pau? And now you have all 3 of those guys but you're still going after Love? Very odd.

I'm sure he's available for the right deal, I just think some are vastly underestimating his worth as a player. Bringing in Pau is bringing in a skilled big man, on the one side of the court that we could always use more of. I do wonder if they wanted Niko this year as opposed to next...with his turmoil late with RM, it may have been a now or never situation.

I do think if a deal that they see as upgrading the team now and in the future presents itself, Taj will be the odd man out. He seems the natural guy to be shopping around, for the right price.

[NecessaryEvil]

His 19 PPG and efficiency numbers are as hollow as they come.

I have no clue what this even means.

Martin has been scoring high volume on high efficiency in this league since he came in. While he would average a couple less on great teams, it doesn't mean he doesn't have legit scoring talent.

I'd like to see Mike Dunleavy average 24 points on the Kings, or even 20 on the Rockets.

It's not his fault he was asked to be a first option over his head, no more than it's Deng's that we asked him to be a 2nd over his head.

You can say he's bad on defense, or doesn't rebound or critique other parts of his game, but that has nothing to do with the value of his points.

Hollow points to me are someone like Corey Maggette who makes his team worse on offense despite good numbers. Martin made his team's offense better.

Indeed..

On top of that, he gets to play in a structured motion offense under Thibs with a star pg & legit big in the paint. Kevin Martin would easily be our 3rd option and maybe would even fall to fourth if Mirotic or McDermott break out.

Doesn't play D but can score?

[Shill]

His 19 PPG and efficiency numbers are as hollow as they come.

I have no clue what this even means.

Martin has been scoring high volume on high efficiency in this league since he came in. While he would average a couple less on great teams, it doesn't mean he doesn't have legit scoring talent.

I'd like to see Mike Dunleavy average 24 points on the Kings, or even 20 on the Rockets.

It's not his fault he was asked to be a first option over his head, no more than it's Deng's that we asked him to be a 2nd over his head.

You can say he's bad on defense, or doesn't rebound or critique other parts of his game, but that has nothing to do with the value of his points.

Hollow points to me are someone like Corey Maggette who makes his team worse on offense despite good numbers. Martin made his team's offense better.

The wolves had a 112.2 OFF RTG with Martin on the floor. That's better than the Spurs and Heat. I wish we could find some 'hollow' scoring like that.

He wasn't asked to be a first option on the Thunder.

He wilted in the playoffs (usually where cheesy foul-drawers get exposed).

And if he made offenses better, he must've made defenses equally worse because there's been virtually zero difference in the records of the teams he's played for before, during, and after his stint.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Rerisen]

He wasn't asked to be a first option on the Thunder.

He wilted in the playoffs (usually where cheesy foul-drawers get exposed).

Sort of like James Harden in the Finals?

I'd look at Scott Brooks and their simpleton offense for that. Oh and losing Westbrook might have made a difference. Seeing how that made Martin the 2nd option, when he should be a 3rd.

And if he made offenses better, he must've made defenses equally worse because there's been virtually zero difference in the records of the teams he's played for before, during, and after his stint.

He isn't a superstar, merely adding him as a top scoring option to your team amid other changes year to year isn't going to show some massive 10 game impact or something.

The hilarious thing about people crapping on him, is we will be gushing all over McDermott or Mirotic if they have career scoring numbers even close to Martin (20.9 pts/36, .591 TS%). They probably won't be much better on defense either.

We need players exactly like Martin, proven shooting and scorers. And not low volume snipers like Dunleavy or Korver either. We have no 2nd or 3rd option solved right now, we need volume and efficiency. He has both. We have enough defense. Yet all we have brought in is mostly unproven rookies and guys that have recently been inefficient. Hardly a position to throw stones.

[Shill]

He wasn't asked to be a first option on the Thunder.

He wilted in the playoffs (usually where cheesy foul-drawers get exposed).

Sort of like James Harden in the Finals?

I'd look at Scott Brooks and their simpleton offense for that.

And if he made offenses better, he must've made defenses equally worse because there's been virtually zero difference in the records of the teams he's played for before, during, and after his stint.

He isn't a superstar, merely adding him as a top scoring option to your team amid other changes year to year isn't going to show some massive 10 game impact or something.

The hilarious thing about people crapping on him, is we will be gushing all over McDermott or Mirotic if they have career scoring numbers even close to Martin. They probably won't be much better on defense either.

We need players exactly like Martin, proven shooting and scorers. We have enough defense. Yet all we have brought in is mostly unproven rookies and guys that have recently been inefficient. Hardly a position to throw stones.

James Harden was shook. He was missing wide open mid-range jumpers and breakaway LAYUPS. The Heat decided to let him shoot until he started hitting shots and he didn't. Brooks is a simpleton, but Harden crapping the bed wasn't a function of that.

I just don't understand why Martin keeps getting moved if he's such an efficient scorer on a good contract. The Thunder wanted no part of him, and Flip wants to move him ONE YEAR AFTER ACQUIRING HIM.

If Flip is in "win now" mode, why is he so desperate to move such a reasonable contract?

Caveat emptor.

[kingkirk]

Bulls have devalued Taj by signing a guy in front of him and behind him. Teams we are dealing with are going to know we want to unload him for perimeter balance and try to stiff us.

Why is there someone in front of him? Why is it not possible that both Pau & Taj see 25 minutes a game?

Is that really someone in front of him in the traditional sense?

[Rerisen]

I just don't understand why Martin keeps getting moved if he's such an efficient scorer on a good contract. The Thunder wanted no part of him, and Flip wants to move him ONE YEAR AFTER ACQUIRING HIM.

If Flip is in "win now" mode, why is he so desperate to move such a reasonable contract?

Caveat emptor.

Because he's a bad defender, which makes him slightly overpaid. But luckily we have Jimmy Butler to cover the best opposing wing. Isn't that the plan with Doug anyway? Or is McDermott going to be guarding LeBron James, Paul George, Kawhi and Carmelo, even if he is ready to help offensively?

Also if they are trading out Love, there isn't much point to a 31 year old SG moving out of his prime. A team that could use him should be in a 'win now' situation. We are, Minny is not.

Even if Flip still wants to compete post Love trade, I think, he knows they aren't winning a title with Kevin Martin. Heck, they aren't winning one even if they keep Love.

[Shill]

Flip Saunders one year ago:


The Timberwolves were last in the league in 3-point shooting last season. The 6-foot-7 Martin shot a career-high 42.6 percent from behind the arc with the Thunder. He has averaged 20-plus points per game in five of his nine seasons in the NBA.

His production decreased with the Thunder, but Saunders chalked that up to the presence of Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. Saunders also brushed off any concern about Martin's defense, praising his shooting touch as a defensive weapon of its own.

"As Coach said, he feels in his system we can chalk in 18 points," Saunders said, referring to Martin's career scoring average.

Martin is expected to sign a four-year deal in the $30 million range, sources close to the process previously told ESPN.com's Marc Stein.


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9471752/kevin-martin-luke-ridnour-trade-involving-minnesota-timberwolves-oklahoma-city-thunder-milwaukee-bucks-official


Something's rotten in Denmark.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Bulls have devalued Taj by signing a guy in front of him and behind him. Teams we are dealing with are going to know we want to unload him for perimeter balance and try to stiff us.

Why is there someone in front of him? Why is it not possible that both Pau & Taj see 25 minutes a game?

Is that really someone in front of him in the traditional sense?

Pau is clearly a more accomplished player than Taj. He will be our starting PF next season. So yes, he's in front of Taj. Taj remains a 6th man candidate though, but Pau's the starter.

[Rerisen]

Bulls have devalued Taj by signing a guy in front of him and behind him. Teams we are dealing with are going to know we want to unload him for perimeter balance and try to stiff us.

Why is there someone in front of him? Why is it not possible that both Pau & Taj see 25 minutes a game?

Is that really someone in front of him in the traditional sense?

That's inefficient use of both. Well below even what we need for more rest. We are just pouring money down the drain paying guys at 30 mpg+ salaries, then losing 5 minutes on the back end of two different players due to over crowding. Other teams are getting 30-35 mpg out of such roles and salaries, and aren't sacrificing crappy wing depth to do it.

If Taj was traded to a team like Minny he would probably play 32-35 mpg and be perfectly capable and productive doing it as one of the mid tier starting PFs in the league.

[Shill]

I just don't understand why Martin keeps getting moved if he's such an efficient scorer on a good contract. The Thunder wanted no part of him, and Flip wants to move him ONE YEAR AFTER ACQUIRING HIM.

If Flip is in "win now" mode, why is he so desperate to move such a reasonable contract?

Caveat emptor.

Because he's a bad defender, which makes him slightly overpaid. But luckily we have Jimmy Butler to cover the best opposing wing. Isn't that the plan with Doug anyway? Or is McDermott going to be guarding LeBron James, Paul George, Kawhi and Carmelo, even if he is ready to help offensively?

Also if they are trading out Love, there isn't much point to a 31 year old SG moving out of his prime. A team that could use him should be in a 'win now' situation. We are, Minny is not.

Even if Flip still wants to compete post Love trade, I think, he knows they aren't winning a title with Kevin Martin. Heck, they aren't winning one even if they keep Love.

He's a bum on defense. At least Dougie is going to try hard. That's why I legitimately think Doug could be a better defender from day one.

And if Minny were trying to get a piece like Taj Gibson (29 years old), that tells me they still want to be competitive right away.

Tossing Martin for a bag o' bones flies in the face of that.

[Rerisen]

He's a bum on defense. At least Dougie is going to try hard.

Are you describing Kevin Martin or Pau Gasol?

Because Pau hurt the Lakers defense more than Martin did the Wolves.

But I'm sure we'll hear some excuses, since only one of them is wearing a Bulls jersey now.

[johnnyvann840]

This is the part people don't understand. Taj is a really good player even at his age that everyone always wants to bring up.

This is the part Gar/Pax apparently don't understand since they've brought in an all-star PF this offseason, another highly touted PF, and are now inquiring about yet another PF.

And yet, the Bulls still only have 3 players on the roster at the 4 and 5 that have any NBA experience AT ALL! It's not we are loaded withg guys that are going to play over Taj. Jesus people. You all watched thegames. You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The Bulls and Gar and Pax are still very high on Taj. Thibs still is still talking like he may still start him. He wantsw to see the team on the floor first.

I'll put it on the line right now and say that I'll bet anyone right now, that Taj is a Bull on opening night, possibly even starting over Pau. Not likely, but it wouldnt surprise me. Not only that, I'll go ahead and say that he leads the team in minutes out of all the PF's and C's. go ahead and bookmark this... any takers?

[NecessaryEvil]

He's not starting over Pau Gasol opening night unless Pau isn't physically capable to do so. He's just not the better player. Of course Thibs wanted to play Gibson more minutes than Boozer, what other choice did he have??

[Rerisen]

You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The FO doesn't get Thibs approval on moves first, otherwise Deng would still be here.

Rumors are they don't want Mirotic 'Boozered' and it might mean Taj is out.

It sounds like that was already the plan with Gasol and Melo being a package deal that fell through.

The Bulls getting involved here as 3 way team makes more sense in that vein than straight up for Love.

If they really valued Taj they would have given him the starting spot for real.

[johnnyvann840]

You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The FO doesn't get Thibs approval on moves first, otherwise Deng would still be here.

Rumors are they don't want Mirotic 'Boozered' and it might mean Taj is out.

It sounds like that was already the plan wit Gasol and Melo being a package deal that fell through.

The Bulls getting involved here as 3 way team makes more sense in that vein than straight up for Love.

If they really valued Taj they would have given the starting spot for real.

So, do you want to bet, or not?