Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Polynice4Pippen]

So Taj is a role player, a high quality back up. How is trading a back up for a legit starting SG, another high quality SG prospect and a lower level back up big man some sort of travesty? Especially when you have another PF in place you're paying over $5 million who's dominated a professional league for the past few years.

Why is Taj are role player and Martin not? Because he had the opportunity to start last season?

When Martin was last in the playoffs, he was a 6th man as well, and he was ordinary.

You make a trade to based on a fair value at worst. Martin for Taj isn't fair value imo, no matter what role Gibson is supposedly assigned to by some on this board in July.

Martin for Dunleavy, Snell and whatever makes sense, because that is equal value given Minnesota want to dump his ass.

I never said Martin wasn't a role player. But he's a role player at a position we desperately need. Taj isn't. And you don't just make trades on fair value, you make them based on whether they will improve your team or not but improving a weakness. Martin would improve a weakness, Mirotic would make sure we don't fall off at back up PF. When the 1988 Bulls traded a young Charles Oakley for an aging Bill Cartwright, do you think Jerry Krause kicks himself knowing Oakley went on to be a much more productive individual player? He made the move that balanced his roster out and ultimately made the Bulls complete and a championship team, even if it was to bring in a flawed but necessary skill set for a superior, younger talent. Horace Grant was ready to step in for Oakley just as Mirotic is ready to step in for Taj.

[kingkirk]

Who cares about Dwayne Wade, we aren't getting Dwayne Wade. No one we brought in this year to score is going to hurt a team like Wade would.

We need shooting, spacing, and much more volume scoring. Ideally efficiency. He does all that.

I suppose my Wade comment was as pertinent as your one about Dunleavy before then? If so, we're square.

We don't have a reliable 2nd option right now! And if we do, then we don't have a reliable 3rd!

No, we don't have a reliable 2nd option now, and we won't all season long. Kevin Martin certainly isn't a reliable 2nd option, and on any given night, our 2nd and 3rd options will differ.

Martin doesn't change this premise, especially as he gets on in age, just like Gasol, which you routinely point out but omit here.

Yes Gibson is a better player, you don't trade Gibson for Martin straight up.

It's not reason to go off on tirades about Martin. If they said Martin for Dunleavy and some junky future pick, I'd say say yes before they could reconsider.

This is what i've been arguing over the last 3 pages. Show me where i have gone on a tirade about Martin. Pointing out his flaws or not subscribing to this theory that he is a gem offensively piece is not going on a tirade.

That team doesn't function without Durant and Westbrook, and they lost Westbrook that year in the playoffs.

Sure, but that team still has Serge Ibaka & Kevin Durant. If Kevin Martin is a great SG option, with his 19 a game on good efficiency, i'd expect more from him that the ghost act he pulled.

Agreed on Taj, but totally irrelevant to a logical evaluation of Martin. Half of what I'm reading people would prefer just keeping MDJ as our starter, because Kmart is being made out like John Lucas or something.

That's not true at all. The majority of time Martin is referenced, it's in direct comparison to Taj and our gluttony up front.

Perhaps their is a minority that would prefer Snell & Dunleavy over Martin, but that's all it is, a minority.

The Martin backers lose traction once Gibson's name is mentioned, which has been the case over the last few pages, not Dunleavy & scraps for Martin.

[dumbell78]

If they really valued Taj they would have given him the starting spot for real.

I've seem this stated by others, in various ways, a few times.

Perhaps they value him as a 6th man. It could be that they see the energy he brings and prefer him in a role that allows him to expend his energy in that frenetic way players off the bench often do. Or perhaps they, like many fans would prefer a more accomplished offensive player starting next to Jo with the option of bringing in Taj when Jo takes a seat and losing none of the defensive edge. Value isn't based on starting or coming off the bench. I mean do we really, truly believe they valued Carlos more last season because he started?

Clearly this board is speaking for Thibs and the FO in that they dont value Taj that much.

Let me guess the same guys that have this train of thought also can say without a doubt Pop and the Spurs have never really valued Manu either since he has been on the bench his whole career.

Starting or not Taj's impact will be more pronounced that Pau or Nikola, its that simple. He means a whole lot to Thibs system. The fact that he's selfless and willing to ride the bench is vital to what Thibs is doing. Im not giving him up for scarecrow KMart.

[Polynice4Pippen]

I hear you.. Just sayin that if we dealt Taj for a mediocre wing and an unproven 4 or even somebody like TT from CLE.. Its a huge downgrade and now we still have only 3 guys at the 4 and 5 who have ever played in teh NBA, but only two of who we know can really play, but now a scrubbish guy, and a rookie from Europe who we cannot expect much from this year.

Completely disagree. Noah, Gasol and Mirotic can handle the majority of the PF/C minutes. Niko has been a great player in Europe, got a pretty decent contract from us, Gar/Pax are high on him, turned down top 10 picks for him. They believe in him. Thompson would be fine as the 4th big. Meanwhile, Martin would instantly be our best scoring wing, an upgrade we're in desperate need of. Can't see how that can be objectively argued.

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Omer Asik?

[Polynice4Pippen]

If they really valued Taj they would have given him the starting spot for real.

I've seem this stated by others, in various ways, a few times.

Perhaps they value him as a 6th man. It could be that they see the energy he brings and prefer him in a role that allows him to expend his energy in that frenetic way players off the bench often do. Or perhaps they, like many fans would prefer a more accomplished offensive player starting next to Jo with the option of bringing in Taj when Jo takes a seat and losing none of the defensive edge. Value isn't based on starting or coming off the bench. I mean do we really, truly believe they valued Carlos more last season because he started?

Clearly this board is speaking for Thibs and the FO in that they dont value Taj that much.

Let me guess the same guys that have this train of thought also can say without a doubt Pop and the Spurs have never really valued Manu either since he has been on the bench his whole career.

Starting or not Taj's impact will be more pronounced that Pau or Nikola, its that simple. He means a whole lot to Thibs system. The fact that he's selfless and willing to ride the bench is vital to what Thibs is doing. Im not giving him up for scarecrow KMart.

Would you have traded Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright?

[Rerisen]

The Martin backers lose traction once Gibson's name is mentioned, which has been the case over the last few pages, not Dunleavy & scraps for Martin.

Sad thing is I think this FO is shopping Taj, and we are probably going to get ripped off.

Everyone is busy investing into this monster frontline build and I don't think its what the FO envisioned at all, nor that they think the team is actually balanced.

I think the Melo plan went south and we are left picking up the pieces.

Part of that might be clearing the way for Mirotic to be a rotation player and finding any old makeshift SG, or combo of SGs to stick in there.

If this happens, I'm going to be even more livid that we didn't sign Stephenson. Because Taj is worth better than that, but sadly they have put themselves in a position where someone is odd man out.

[johnnyvann840]

The other thing I really don't like about him is the way he doesn't give a **** if his guy blows by him, shoots over him.. doesn't matter to him. He never goes hard. And he's only great shooter from the left elbow and right corner... he's not good frodm anywhere else and I think good defenses know this and take away his spots.. He's been a part of so many bad team he gets a lot of garbage stats too.

Look at his 2013 shot chart. He's hot from virtually all over. Shooters have fluctuations like that year to year.

Is his scoring inflated? Possibly a couple points, but he's still clearly a much higher volume scorer than someone like Korver or MDJ.

If he came here with Love, I doubt we'd need more than 15-16 a game from him, and he'd do that easy. And if his scoring does come down, fair chance his efficiency goes back up.

Do you even question why no teams want this guy? He is a guy the freaking Minnesota Timberwolves want to "dump" on us. think about that for a second. We are talking about a cast off from OKC and Minny to come be a big part of our team. I just cant see any situation where I want him on the floor over Jimmy or MDJ.

[johnnyvann840]

Completely disagree. Noah, Gasol and Mirotic can handle the majority of the PF/C minutes. Niko has been a great player in Europe, got a pretty decent contract from us, Gar/Pax are high on him, turned down top 10 picks for him. They believe in him. Thompson would be fine as the 4th big. Meanwhile, Martin would instantly be our best scoring wing, an upgrade we're in desperate need of. Can't see how that can be objectively argued.

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Omer Asik?

He played 10 MPG

[dumbell78]

I've seem this stated by others, in various ways, a few times.

Perhaps they value him as a 6th man. It could be that they see the energy he brings and prefer him in a role that allows him to expend his energy in that frenetic way players off the bench often do. Or perhaps they, like many fans would prefer a more accomplished offensive player starting next to Jo with the option of bringing in Taj when Jo takes a seat and losing none of the defensive edge. Value isn't based on starting or coming off the bench. I mean do we really, truly believe they valued Carlos more last season because he started?

Clearly this board is speaking for Thibs and the FO in that they dont value Taj that much.

Let me guess the same guys that have this train of thought also can say without a doubt Pop and the Spurs have never really valued Manu either since he has been on the bench his whole career.

Starting or not Taj's impact will be more pronounced that Pau or Nikola, its that simple. He means a whole lot to Thibs system. The fact that he's selfless and willing to ride the bench is vital to what Thibs is doing. Im not giving him up for scarecrow KMart.

Would you have traded Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright?

If I had MJ and Scottie already and a young Horace, hell yes! I dont have them on this 2014-2015 roster so Taj>Scarecrow.

The two situations are not even in the same universe sorry brother.

[Polynice4Pippen]

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Omer Asik?

He played 10 MPG

He played 12 mpg, and in his final 7 playoff games played 16 mpg until getting hurt. Omer was absolutely an impact player by the end of the season, and against the best team in the conference too.

[kingkirk]

Well I still don't understand that. Just because Taj is better than Martin I don't get why his scoring is 'hollow'.

If it's because he doesn't score like Wade... well that should be a given, none of the players in the discussion are close to a healthy Wade and I'm not sure why anyone would need it explained that Martin doesn't affect an offense like a healthy Wade.

Every single player on our team's scoring is also 'hollow' then beside Derrick Rose. Because we have no one else as versatile as Wade. Doug McDermott and Mirotic will good chance be 'hollow' scorers as well by that comparison.

I don't know what you don't understand re this comment. His 19 points are not impactful for me. There is 19 points, then there is 19 points.

It's like OJ Mayo all over again. The guy can score and is a good individual offensive talent, but is he a good to great team offensive player?

A knock on our team is that were a great regular season team, but fall over come playoff time. Martin doesn't strike you as someone similar if his role on this team is to provide 17-19 a game?

I want scoring as well, but Kevin Martin is now the boards new fascination at the 2 ever since Afflalo was dealt.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Clearly this board is speaking for Thibs and the FO in that they dont value Taj that much.

Let me guess the same guys that have this train of thought also can say without a doubt Pop and the Spurs have never really valued Manu either since he has been on the bench his whole career.

Starting or not Taj's impact will be more pronounced that Pau or Nikola, its that simple. He means a whole lot to Thibs system. The fact that he's selfless and willing to ride the bench is vital to what Thibs is doing. Im not giving him up for scarecrow KMart.

Would you have traded Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright?

If I had MJ and Scottie already and a young Horace hell yes! I dont have them on this 2014 so Taj>Scarecrow.

The two situations are not even in the same universe sorry brother.

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

[Rerisen]

Do you even question why no teams want this guy? He is a guy the freaking Minnesota Timberwolves want to "dump" on us. think about that for a second. We are talking about a cast off from OKC and Minny to come be a big part of our team. I just cant see any situation where I want him on the floor over Jimmy or MDJ.

The Thunder did win 60 games with him playing 28 mpg. I think they didn't want to pay him because they are a small market team that watches their budget and were hopeful on younger guys they had. But those young guys ended up not playing as well, and even worse in the playoffs the next year. They probably could have used him, instead of continuing to run ancient Fisher out there and broken down Caron Butler.

[kingkirk]

I never said Martin wasn't a role player. But he's a role player at a position we desperately need. Taj isn't. And you don't just make trades on fair value, you make them based on whether they will improve your team or not but improving a weakness. Martin would improve a weakness, Mirotic would make sure we don't fall off at back up PF. When the 1988 Bulls traded a young Charles Oakley for an aging Bill Cartwright, do you think Jerry Krause kicks himself knowing Oakley went on to be a much more productive individual player? He made the move that balanced his roster out and ultimately made the Bulls complete and a championship team, even if it was to bring in a flawed but necessary skill set for a superior, younger talent. Horace Grant was ready to step in for Oakley just as Mirotic is ready to step in for Taj.

You can't say with any conviction in July, before the season has even begun, that Nikola Mirotic is ready to step in for Taj Gibson from day one, especially with the injury histories of both Noah and Gasol.

That's not true at all and nothing more than an assumption.

I have no issue moving Taj for the right player, but doing so based on an assumption that Mirotic is good to go is flawed.

What happens if he isn't? Your back up bigs are 2 rookies in Bairstow & Mirotic, and suddenly a strength just went to a weakness.

[johnnyvann840]

Omer Asik?

He played 10 MPG

He played 12 mpg, and in his final 7 playoff games played 16 mpg until getting hurt. Omer was absolutely an impact player by the end of the season, and against the best team in the conference too.

He was by the end of the season. Hey, I'm one of the guys who think id Omer doesn't fracture his leg, that series is different. But he was also par tof a big rotation of .. Jo, Taj, Boozer, Omer, and Big Sexy.. we had four guys who had started in the league on that team. this year we are not as loaded at the bigs with proven players as people think... if one of Jo or Pau go down for even a month, we are in serious trouble if we deal Taj

[Rerisen]

It's like OJ Mayo all over again. The guy can score and is a good individual offensive talent, but is he a good to great team offensive player?

OJ Mayo has never been very efficient, not even close to Martin

A knock on our team is that were a great regular season team, but fall over come playoff time. Martin doesn't strike you as someone similar if his role on this team is to provide 17-19 a game?

Whose providing those points now? It's someone even less proven and less sure. Right now its probably Mike Dunleavy. He has no hope to get even 17 a game for us.

I'm just looking at if a player can upgrade us or not. He could.

If Minny wants to unload him as much as people say, and he's such crap that no one wants, then it should be easy for us to get in the deal as a 3rd team and not give up much at all right? Clearly not Taj Gibson.

[RedBulls23]

Omer Asik?

He played 10 MPG[/quote]
In general though Nikola is not comparable to Asik, because Nikola has had a better career over seas thus far. Remember, Nikola was a guy that won the euroleague rising star award back to back for example.

Other guys that won are Rudy Fernandez, Danilo Galanari, and Ricky Rubio.

I think there is a good chance that he has a positive impact if he's given a role as the season goes on. Obviously there will be an adjustment period, but it would be disappointing if he didn't get at least 15 mins a game. I would even like to see him get 20.

[Polynice4Pippen]

I never said Martin wasn't a role player. But he's a role player at a position we desperately need. Taj isn't. And you don't just make trades on fair value, you make them based on whether they will improve your team or not but improving a weakness. Martin would improve a weakness, Mirotic would make sure we don't fall off at back up PF. When the 1988 Bulls traded a young Charles Oakley for an aging Bill Cartwright, do you think Jerry Krause kicks himself knowing Oakley went on to be a much more productive individual player? He made the move that balanced his roster out and ultimately made the Bulls complete and a championship team, even if it was to bring in a flawed but necessary skill set for a superior, younger talent. Horace Grant was ready to step in for Oakley just as Mirotic is ready to step in for Taj.

You can't say with any conviction in July, before the season has even begun, that Nikola Mirotic is ready to step in for Taj Gibson from day one, especially with the injury histories of both Noah and Gasol.

That's not true at all and nothing more than an assumption.

I have no issue moving Taj for the right player, but doing so based on an assumption that Mirotic is good to go is flawed.

What happens if he isn't? Your back up bigs are 2 rookies in Bairstow & Mirotic, and suddenly a strength just went to a weakness.

At some point you have to project, now don't you? You don't know until you know. Once upon a time we projected a 22-year-old Horace Grant and his 8 ppg, 5 rebs would be ready to fill in for the best rebounder and one of the best defenders in the league in Charles Oakley. Front offices have to be able to project, and as much time as Gar/Pax have spent evaluating and pursuing Mirotic, I think they are at least projecting him to be a reliable back up PF, especially if they're turning down top 10 picks for him.

[johnnyvann840]

I think there is a good chance that he has a positive impact if he's given a role as the season goes on. Obviously there will be an adjustment period, but it would be disappointing if he didn't get at least 15 mins a game. I would even like to see him get 20.

Mirza Teletovic is the best comp and he won it too.

[kingkirk]

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

Not sure why you're using this as your example.

Oakley and Grant were teammates for a season. We traded Oakley because we knew what he had in Grant and had seen him play in the pros.

We knew what we had in him. We don't right now in Mirotic.

If Krause had traded Oakley the day Grant rolled up to CHI before even playing a minute, then you'd have a point, but that wasn't the case.

Both were here in the 87-88 season.

If Taj is moved at the deadline, or in the off season for the SG piece when we know what we have with Mirotic, your point would be pertinent.