Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[DanTown8587]

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Define decent impact.

How many european rookie big men came over and played 1600 minutes in the year, listed by PER

Ilgauskas - 19.7
Kirilinko - 19.5
P. Gasol - 19.5
Radja - 18.2
M. Gasol -16.7
Scola - 16.1
Smits -15.6
Kukoc - 15.4

No one is asking Mirotic to play like an all-star or do something that hasn't happened for lesser prospects

[Rerisen]

I want scoring as well, but Kevin Martin is now the boards new fascination at the 2 ever since Afflalo was dealt.

The team needs an offensive SG. We don't have one.

We have Tony Snell (10 pts/36, .489TS% last year) and Jimmy Butler.

Pretending one of those guys is going to bust out as some sure thing, or even likely, or as if its not a hole, or that its easy to produce a legit SG, when we haven't been able to scrounge even a mediocre one up for 5 years since BG left, would be pretty crazy thinking to me.

And yet... fair bet our championship hopes rely on exactly that happening. Producing a SG out of nowhere. Or a great SF, which forces Jimmy to SG, which might be less ideal due to defensive rotations.

People aren't fascinated with Kevin Martin, they are trying to find ways to fill the biggest and most obvious hole on the team. That's what they are fascinated with, the gaping hole.

You try to get involved and get Martin for some combination of Dunleavy or Snell and/or picks (or of course, as a tag-a-long with the much more important Love). If you can't, like with Afflalo, you move on keep trying to find another answer for the hole. If you find a better option, then you think about upgrading what you'll give up.

[RedBulls23]

I think there is a good chance that he has a positive impact if he's given a role as the season goes on. Obviously there will be an adjustment period, but it would be disappointing if he didn't get at least 15 mins a game. I would even like to see him get 20.

Mirza Teletovic is the best comp and he won it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague_Rising_Star

No he didn't. Maybe you are thinking of Bargnani? I forgot about him.

[Polynice4Pippen]

He played 10 MPG

He played 12 mpg, and in his final 7 playoff games played 16 mpg until getting hurt. Omer was absolutely an impact player by the end of the season, and against the best team in the conference too.

He was by the end of the season. Hey, I'm one of the guys who think id Omer doesn't fracture his leg, that series is different. But he was also par tof a big rotation of .. Jo, Taj, Boozer, Omer, and Big Sexy.. we had four guys who had started in the league on that team. this year we are not as loaded at the bigs with proven players as people think... if one of Jo or Pau go down for even a month, we are in serious trouble if we deal Taj

Eh we don't know this. Again, you have to project. Guys have stepped up before. Omer would've stepped up if need be. When we traded Tyrus, Taj was ready to step up. We're not talking wild card summer league guys here, we're talking the best prospect in Europe. He'll be fine as a back up PF behind two potential all-stars.

[ChiBulls09]

If we get Gorgui Dieng and/or Tristan Thompson back, that would greatly help mitigate the loss of Gibson. Dieng already shown in his rookie year that he can be a good rebounder, hustle guy, and probably a good defender (I don't watch TWolves games). TT, on the other hand, size wise he's practically a Taj-lite. Under Thibs, he'll probably be groomed into a Taj 2.0 or even better, he's still young. I think Taj + Mike D. (Or whomever) for KMart, Waiters?, Dieng/TT (or both?) would be a decent deal.

[kingkirk]

Whose providing those points now? It's someone even less proven and less sure. Right now its probably Mike Dunleavy. He has no hope to get even 17 a game for us.

I'm just looking at if a player can upgrade us or not. He could.

If Minny wants to unload him as much as people say, and he's such crap that no one wants, then it should be easy for us to get in the deal as a 3rd team and not give up much at all right? Clearly not Taj Gibson.

No one is providing those points, and i've already stated countless times that there is a role here for Martin, but let's also face reality.

Martin has flaws and his incumbent wants to salary dump him. If he was a sure fire bet, Flip would want to keep him around, especially if we're to believe he wants to win now.

Martin is a good player, but he has questions and holes in game, just like most of our guys on our roster. That's not to say don't get him by unloading Dunleavy and whatever, but let's temper expectations, which are quickly growing and noting him as the final piece to the 2014-15 puzzle.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

Not sure why you're using this as your example.

Oakley and Grant were teammates for a season. We traded Oakley because we knew what he had in Grant and had seen him play in the pros.

We knew what we had in him. We don't right now in Mirotic.

If Krause had traded Oakley the day Grant rolled up to CHI before even playing a minute, then you'd have a point, but that wasn't the case.

Both were here in the 87-88 season.

If Taj is moved at the deadline, or in the off season for the SG piece when we know what we have with Mirotic, your point would be pertinent.

We didn't know if Horace Grant was ready to be a starting PF any more than we know if Mirotic is ready to be a back up, that's just revisionist history. Charles Oakley was a 24-year-old rebounding and defensive monster who also scored 13 ppg. Horace was a raw late lottery pick with a slender frame. He wasn't any sure thing. Krause projected and took a chance, traded to balance his roster out and took the lesser player. And it made his team better.

[johnnyvann840]

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Define decent impact.

How many european rookie big men came over and played 1600 minutes in the year, listed by PER

Ilgauskas - 19.7
Kirilinko - 19.5
P. Gasol - 19.5
Radja - 18.2
M. Gasol -16.7
Scola - 16.1
Smits -15.6
Kukoc - 15.4

No one is asking Mirotic to play like an all-star or do something that hasn't happened for lesser prospects

I've seen too many hyped up Euro busts and I would like to see him play first.. that's all

and Toni really struggled badly his rookie year... i don't care what his PER was. It was rough. I was there.

[kingkirk]

The team needs an offensive SG. We don't have one.

We have Tony Snell (10 pts/36, .489TS% last year) and Jimmy Butler.

Pretending one of those guys is going to bust out as some sure thing, or even likely, or as if its not a hole, or that its easy to produce a legit SG, when we haven't been able to scrounge even a mediocre one up for 5 years since BG left, would be pretty crazy thinking to me.

And yet... fair bet our championship hopes rely on exactly that happening. Producing a SG out of nowhere. Or a great SF, which forces Jimmy to SG, which might be less ideal due to defensive rotations.

People aren't fascinated with Kevin Martin, they are trying to find ways to fill the biggest and most obvious hole on the team. That's what they are fascinated with, the gaping hole.

You try to get involved and get Martin for some combination of Dunleavy or Snell and/or picks. If you can't like with Afflalo, you move on keep trying to find another answer for the hole. If you find a better option, then you think about upgrading what you'll give up.

Why can't we wait and see what we actually have instead of going nuts right now in July trying to fix every single problem we have whilst potentially creating new ones?

Why do we have to have our ideal SG available to us now?

Afflalo may be available again later in the season given he is already on record stating that he will test free agency.

Why can't we wait to see what we have in McDermott, Snell, Butler, Mirotic, Gasol and even Rose?

This team has too many question marks to start making consolidation moves to fill holes that may/may not exist.

[Rerisen]

Martin is a good player, but he has questions and holes in game, just like most of our guys on our roster. That's not to say don't get him by unloading Dunleavy and whatever, but let's temper expectations, which are quickly growing and noting him as the final piece to the 2014-15 puzzle.

No, no, people are saying he's the final piece? If he comes with Kevin Love, he might be.

Not by himself. By himself if he comes and scores 18 PPG on high efficiency that's still no lock. We'd still need Pau Gasol to be a legit 2nd option.

[dumbell78]

Would you have traded Charles Oakley for Bill Cartwright?

If I had MJ and Scottie already and a young Horace hell yes! I dont have them on this 2014 so Taj>Scarecrow.

The two situations are not even in the same universe sorry brother.

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

Bulls got greater TEAM value for him because Horace + plus the emergence of Scottie made up even more of the difference. Bulls knew what they had in that trio, Charles was holding back Horace an it was proven after the trade. We just needed a body at the center spot that could do the dirty work.

What you're asking now is to trade someone like Horace Grant (when you already dont have a Scottie Pippen) for a guy like Danny Ainge and expect Danny to be your 2nd option next to MJ. BTW- Im just throwing Ainge out there because he came to mind quickly as a KMart type guy that could shoot it.

[DanTown8587]

Tony Snell per 36
10.1 points
9.8 shots
.384 FG%
.320 3pt%
.489 TS%

Jimmy Butler per 36
12.2 points
9.9 shots
.397 FG%
.283 3pt%
.522 TS%

Mike Dunleavy per 36
12.9 points
10.8 shots
.430 FG%
.380 3pt%
.549 TS%

Kevin Martin per 36
21.5 points
16.9 shots
.430 FG%
.387 3pt%
.553 TS%

One of those at percentages/volume is not like the other

[johnnyvann840]

Tony Snell per 36
10.1 points
9.8 shots
.384 FG%
.320 3pt%
.489 TS%

Jimmy Butler per 36
12.2 points
9.9 shots
.397 FG%
.283 3pt%
.522 TS%

Mike Dunleavy per 36
12.9 points
10.8 shots
.430 FG%
.380 3pt%
.549 TS%

Kevin Martin per 36
21.5 points
16.9 shots
.430 FG%
.387 3pt%
.553 TS%

One of those at percentages/volume is not like the other

Dunleavy just needs more shots, that's all.

[Polynice4Pippen]

If I had MJ and Scottie already and a young Horace hell yes! I dont have them on this 2014 so Taj>Scarecrow.

The two situations are not even in the same universe sorry brother.

Oakley won the rebounding title in 1988, 12 ppg, 13 rebs per game, just 24-years-old. Cartwright meanwhile was Ewing's back up in New York, 11 ppg, 5 rebs per game, 30-years-old. You really think Bulls got equal value for Oakley in 1988?

Bulls got greater TEAM value for him because Horace + plus the emergence of Scottie made up even more of the difference. Bulls knew what they had in that trio, Charles was holding back Horace an it was proven after the trade. We just needed a boy at the center spot that could do the dirty work.

What you're asking now is to trade someone like Horace Grant (when you already dont have a Scottie Pippen) for a guy like Danny Ainge and expect Danny to be your 2nd option next to MJ. BTW- Im just throwing Ainge out there because he came to mind quickly as a KMart type guy that could shoot it.

Revisionist history. Pippen and Grant both had relatively mediocre rookie years in 1988. They were anything but sure things. Krause projected them based on why he drafted them in the first place, not because of anything great they showed as rookies. Oakley was easily our 2nd best player in 1988.

[kingkirk]

We didn't know if Horace Grant was ready to be a starting PF any more than we know if Mirotic is ready to be a back up, that's just revisionist history. Charles Oakley was a 24-year-old rebounding and defensive monster who also scored 13 ppg. Horace was a raw late lottery pick with a slender frame. He wasn't any sure thing. Krause projected and took a chance, traded to balance his roster out and took the lesser player. And it made his team better.

We didn't know if Horace would be who he was, but we knew at worst, he was an NBA caliber big man, putting up 8 & 5 in his rookie season.

That was fact.

With Mirotic, we know nothing. Yes, we knew Grant was an NBA back up but weren't sure on his starting capabilities, but we know nothing of Nikola.

If Nikola is an 8 & 5 guy this season, then i agree, the situations are comparable.

He hasn't even played an NBA minute yet. He could be a spud. He could be a star. Who knows?

The point is, until we see what this team can do, how it fits and what we need, we don't know. Kevin Martin isn't a big enough reason to 'project' forward by dealing Gibson for Martin.

He just isn't.

[Swarles Xavier]

If not Martin who are the other SG's out there that you see who can fill our hole? Any news on Alec burks? With gordon hayward staying their backcourt seems crowded.

[DanTown8587]

In the history of the league, only one, Pay Gasol, out of all the Euro's , EVER.. have been even a decent impact player their first year here. Asking Mirotic to come into a very difficult system to learn on D, pick up a new culture and game...it's MUCH different, and be a big part of a contending team.. It's foolish to do and leaving our big rotation that exposed is foolish. We would struggle mightily and maybe even ruin Niko.

Define decent impact.

How many european rookie big men came over and played 1600 minutes in the year, listed by PER

Ilgauskas - 19.7
Kirilinko - 19.5
P. Gasol - 19.5
Radja - 18.2
M. Gasol -16.7
Scola - 16.1
Smits -15.6
Kukoc - 15.4

No one is asking Mirotic to play like an all-star or do something that hasn't happened for lesser prospects

I've seen too many hyped up Euro busts and I would like to see him play first.. that's all

and Toni really struggled badly his rookie year... i don't care what his PER was. It was rough. I was there.

No one is saying Mirotic has to be dynamic but to be a 20 minute per game backup? That's not a high bar, especially for a 24 year old Mirotic.

No one is asking to dump Taj but the Bulls need scoring on the perimeter. Give me a more available or better scorer than Martin and I'd take that deal. But this deal doesn't just swap 1-1, it gives the Bulls potentially another PF to replace Taj (albeit not as good) in the future AND it might give the Bulls a lotto ticket SG in Waiters too.

How much value do you guys think Taj has in this league?

[Rerisen]

Why do we have to have our ideal SG available to us now?

Because they might not be available later. Martin might be a cheap throw in they just need a 3rd team for. To miss that opportunity could be bad.

As many flaws as he has, the SG market is sparse, and when you narrow it to just good offensive ones, has to be less than 10 probably in the whole league that have a proven track record of what we need.

If we wait till the deadline and its obvious we need more scoring on the wing, I'd hate to have to just dump Taj for someone like Dion Waiters because the team clearly sees its a problem and has to do something.

Even worse, if there are big hints of a problem, but the team keeps piling up wins anyway (similar to the train at the end of the dark tunnel that was Bogans) and the FO is just too scared to make a change or disrupt chemistry, even though its obvious Derrick Rose is the entire catalyst for the offense again, and that if any playoff team can successfully strategize against him, it will be curtains for us.

[Polynice4Pippen]

We didn't know if Horace Grant was ready to be a starting PF any more than we know if Mirotic is ready to be a back up, that's just revisionist history. Charles Oakley was a 24-year-old rebounding and defensive monster who also scored 13 ppg. Horace was a raw late lottery pick with a slender frame. He wasn't any sure thing. Krause projected and took a chance, traded to balance his roster out and took the lesser player. And it made his team better.

We didn't know if Horace would be who he was, but we knew at worst, he was an NBA caliber big man, putting up 8 & 5 in his rookie season.

That was fact.

With Mirotic, we know nothing. Yes, we knew Grant was an NBA back up but weren't sure on his starting capabilities, but we know nothing of Nikola.

If Nikola is an 8 & 5 guy this season, then i agree, the situations are comparable.

He hasn't even played an NBA minute yet. He could be a spud. He could be a star. Who knows?

The point is, until we see what this team can do, how it fits and what we need, we don't know. Kevin Martin isn't a big enough reason to 'project' forward by dealing Gibson for Martin.

He just isn't.

If we don't even know that Mirotic is a back up NBA PF then why did we give him almost $20 million? Why did we turn down top 10 picks for him? Why did we make him a promise not to trade him? Gar/Pax strongly believe he'll be a player, and at the least know he can handle back up minutes the way Horace and Omer did as rookies.

[ChiBulls09]

I actually just looked up TT's stats on wiki... Sign me up for this guy! Player 1: 6'9 225. 13 points/7 boards in roughly 29 mins per game. Also played all 82 games. Player 2: 6'9 238. 12 points/9 boards per game in roughly 31 mins per game. Also played all 82 games. Player 2 is Tristan Thompson, he's actually bigger than Taj and actually put up better stats in roughly the same amount of playing time. He's also 6-7 years younger! Holy cow, I feel like some of you guys too in love with Taj... If we get TT and KMart (who can start at the 2 right away) that's a pretty big upgrade IMO.