Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[johnnyvann840]

He played 12 mpg, and in his final 7 playoff games played 16 mpg until getting hurt. Omer was absolutely an impact player by the end of the season, and against the best team in the conference too.

He was by the end of the season. Hey, I'm one of the guys who think id Omer doesn't fracture his leg, that series is different. But he was also par tof a big rotation of .. Jo, Taj, Boozer, Omer, and Big Sexy.. we had four guys who had started in the league on that team. this year we are not as loaded at the bigs with proven players as people think... if one of Jo or Pau go down for even a month, we are in serious trouble if we deal Taj

I agree, but let me ask a question. Let's say the Suns resign Bledsoe long-term along with the signing of I. Thomas. The Suns need impact players in the front court. Would you do Taj/Snell/Sac pick for Dragic/one of the Morris twins? Then while Morris not anywhere near as good as Taj, you have a good backup PF and Gasol can be the backup Center when not playing PF. We can still develop Mirotic, but get the playmaking guard we need besides Rose? Bulls won't do it, but that is a way to alleviate losing Taj.

I would . Dragic is that good and I like both the twins. That is a tough call. I like Marcus casue he seems to have found his shooting stroke and he rebounds well but he is a tweener.. But I would have to take Kief. He can play the 4 or 5 and can rebound like a demon at times and I like his motor better,

[othawhitemeat]

The Bulls need one more shot creator at the 2 guard or small forward position. I have stated over and over on Burks/Dragic, etc....

However, if the Cavs end up with Lebron, Irving, Love, Verajao, Miller, Ray Allen as the core and somehow lose Waiters, Thompson, Wiggins, etc.. in the trade, outside of Lebron they have an extremely old or injury ridden type team with less depth if they can't get good ring chasers. The Bulls Rose, Noah, and Gasol are injury pragued, but the depth is great this year. We just need to hope for a healthy Rose and some trade for someone like Burks.

Yes, outside of Love and Irving, they would be old...and outside of Bron, an injury risk. But Gasol is 34 and Rose is the biggest injury risk of them all.

We have a lot of players and potential, but a good chunk of our depth is unproven. Also, from a synergy stand point, they blow us out of the water.

Someone mentioned that AV occupies the paint. If AV does....so does Noah. The difference is that they have more outside shooters to clear the paint (Ivring, Bron, Love, and maybe who ever else is at SG...like Miller), and more true ball handlers to drive the lanes (Irving, Bron).

Yes their depth will be thin and we will probably beat them in the regular season. But come post season and shorter rotations, their top tier talent wins. We can only hope that their rookie coach and first time play-off players crap the bed.

I agree that Pau and Rose are injury prone. However, our Front Court is loaded now so we will have players ready to play no matter what. My question is do I think Irving, AV, Love and their shooters will be healthy come playoff time? I just don't know if I see that either. Irving, AV, and Love have missed significant time repeatedly. If they are run clean on depth (especially front court), how are they going to be able to do anything against opponents defensively (especially considering they will be bad already).

Rose and another playmaker are the key to our season. Rose is a huge concern, but so is the health of half of Cleveland's team.

[kingkirk]

But what about the fact that you can't just tell Minnesota to hold onto Martin and we'll call back in December or January? Are you saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades? If not, what is the baseline for what you'd consider acceptable for trading Taj.

I ask this question because clearly a Martin+others deal for Taj+Dunleavy isn't good enough so I wonder what IS good enough to trade Taj.

Then i forget about Martin and look at other SG later on, should it prove to be right that we have a massive hole there.

No, i am not saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades, but unless we're getting something back of quality right now, i am holding onto him.

I am not prepared to give up Taj Gibson for a player that Minnesota doesn't even want to keep on their roster. That doesn't make sense to me.

I've already stated that i would happily give up Dunleavy, Snell & the Cavs pick for Martin. I think that is fair value given they don't want him and are looking at salary dumping him with Love.

Imo, we'd be losing the best player in a Taj for Martin swap.

I like Martin the player, and would have him here, but for the right price. Taj Gibson is not the right price for me personally. Not with the unknowns or questions i have on other areas of our roster.

[othawhitemeat]

He was by the end of the season. Hey, I'm one of the guys who think id Omer doesn't fracture his leg, that series is different. But he was also par tof a big rotation of .. Jo, Taj, Boozer, Omer, and Big Sexy.. we had four guys who had started in the league on that team. this year we are not as loaded at the bigs with proven players as people think... if one of Jo or Pau go down for even a month, we are in serious trouble if we deal Taj

I agree, but let me ask a question. Let's say the Suns resign Bledsoe long-term along with the signing of I. Thomas. The Suns need impact players in the front court. Would you do Taj/Snell/Sac pick for Dragic/one of the Morris twins? Then while Morris not anywhere near as good as Taj, you have a good backup PF and Gasol can be the backup Center when not playing PF. We can still develop Mirotic, but get the playmaking guard we need besides Rose? Bulls won't do it, but that is a way to alleviate losing Taj.

I would . Dragic is that good and I like both the twins. That is a tough call. I like Marcus casue he seems to have found his shooting stroke and he rebounds well but he is a tweener.. But I would have to take Kief. He can play the 4 or 5 and can rebound like a demon at times and I like his motor better,

To me this is one of those trades really good for both teams (I just don't see the Bulls FO being creative enough to pull it off). Dragic is redundant for the Suns with 2 playmaking guards (if Bledsoe re-signs). Dragic can be our creating shooting guard and backup point (Bulls won't do it cause they have Kirk and signed Brooks). However, Kief would be that great backup PF that I think could flourish under Thibs. I think Burks could be had too if we throw in Snell and the Kings pick or stipulations with the Bulls pick. Heck if we have to substitute Butler (as long as we get Marion - cause he can guard Bron solidly), I would include Butler instead of Snell for either Dragic or Burks

Rose/Dragic/Brooks/Hinrich
Dragic/Hinrich/Butler
Butler/McDermott
Kief/Mirotic
Noah/Gasol

Rose/Hinrich/Brooks
Butler/Burks
McDermott/DunDun
Gasol/Mirotic
Noah/Tajywoo

I mean in this case Burks can be the creator off the bench and be very versatile in minutes playing at end of games or giving us a huge creating lift next to shooters off the bench.

[Polynice4Pippen]

But what about the fact that you can't just tell Minnesota to hold onto Martin and we'll call back in December or January? Are you saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades? If not, what is the baseline for what you'd consider acceptable for trading Taj.

I ask this question because clearly a Martin+others deal for Taj+Dunleavy isn't good enough so I wonder what IS good enough to trade Taj.

Then i forget about Martin and look at other SG later on, should it prove to be right that we have a massive hole there.

No, i am not saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades, but unless we're getting something back of quality right now, i am holding onto him.

I am not prepared to give up Taj Gibson for a player that Minnesota doesn't even want to keep on their roster. That doesn't make sense to me.

I've already stated that i would happily give up Dunleavy, Snell & the Cavs pick for Martin. I think that is fair value given they don't want him and are looking at salary dumping him with Love.

Imo, we'd be losing the best player in a Taj for Martin swap.

I like Martin the player, and would have him here, but for the right price. Taj Gibson is not the right price for me personally. Not with the unknowns or questions i have on other areas of our roster.

It's Oakley for Cartwright all over again. Sounds like you would've turned that deal down too.

[BullsFTW]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/NBARumorPress/status/492692924485087232[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/NBARumorPress/status/492691850873290754[/tweet]

Have we mentioned these tweets?

Obviously we're looking to contend straight away, but I like Thompson and potentially Bennett as pieces. That said, I much prefer to keep all of Mirotic/Taj/McD.

Honestly, the only thing I feel willing to give up right now in a trade is MDJ and pick(s). Otherwise, I want to run with what we've got.

Basically verifies with what Ralph said. Hopefully it pulls through.

[DanTown8587]

But what about the fact that you can't just tell Minnesota to hold onto Martin and we'll call back in December or January? Are you saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades? If not, what is the baseline for what you'd consider acceptable for trading Taj.

I ask this question because clearly a Martin+others deal for Taj+Dunleavy isn't good enough so I wonder what IS good enough to trade Taj.

Then i forget about Martin and look at other SG later on, should it prove to be right that we have a massive hole there.

No, i am not saying Taj Gibson is off the table in all trades, but unless we're getting something back of quality right now, i am holding onto him.

I am not prepared to give up Taj Gibson for a player that Minnesota doesn't even want to keep on their roster. That doesn't make sense to me.

I've already stated that i would happily give up Dunleavy, Snell & the Cavs pick for Martin. I think that is fair value given they don't want him and are looking at salary dumping him with Love.

Imo, we'd be losing the best player in a Taj for Martin swap.

I like Martin the player, and would have him here, but for the right price. Taj Gibson is not the right price for me personally. Not with the unknowns or questions i have on other areas of our roster.

I get that you don't want to deal Taj for Martin but that's not my question. My question is who WOULD you deal Taj for, not who wouldn't.

And for the record, it's not a 1-1 swap and if it was, I'd be against it to.

[DRoseCantStop]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SamAmicoFSO/status/492888722246213633[/tweet]

[DanTown8587]

So Taj's trade value is now equal to Goran Dragic, a guy who just was voted to the All-NBA third team, was a runaway winner for MIP, and just put up a season of 20-6 and had a season that rivals Derrick's MVP years in numbers.

[kingkirk]

It's Oakley for Cartwright all over again. Sounds like you would've turned that deal down too.

I've already noted why i don't agree with this comparison.

[johnnyvann840]

So Taj's trade value is now equal to Goran Dragic, a guy who just was voted to the All-NBA third team, was a runaway winner for MIP, and just put up a season of 20-6 and had a season that rivals Derrick's MVP years in numbers.

I think it's pretty fair. Taj had some accolades last season as well. Runner up for 6th man is on the level 3rd team all NBA. And Taj was a beast in the playoffs and really nearly every time he started and/or played big minutes. But, the main dynamic here is that the Suns are in a spot where they cannot really keep both Dragic and Bledsoe if they pay Bledsoe what he wants and Taj is exactly what the Suns need right now.

[DanTown8587]

So Taj's trade value is now equal to Goran Dragic, a guy who just was voted to the All-NBA third team, was a runaway winner for MIP, and just put up a season of 20-6 and had a season that rivals Derrick's MVP years in numbers.

I think it's pretty fair. Taj had some accolades last season as well. Runner up for 6th man is on the level 3rd team all NBA. And Taj was a beast in the playoffs and really nearly every time he played big minutes. But, the main dynamic here is that the Suns are in a spot where they cannot really keep both Dragic and Bledsoe if they pay Bledsoe what he wants and Taj is exactly what the Suns need right now.

I didn't really expect an argument but somehow 2nd in Sixth Man = top 15 player in the NBA now.

I mean this is out of hand. If it was anyone else I'd assume they were trolling me but I know your affinity for Taj so the problem is I do believe that you think this highly of Taj.

Let me just tell you that Taj Gibson and Goran Dragic are not close in trade value.

[Polynice4Pippen]

It's Oakley for Cartwright all over again. Sounds like you would've turned that deal down too.

I've already noted why i don't agree with this comparison.

You still wouldn't have made that trade though, it's obvious. You wouldn't have been ready to give Horace the starting PF role after an average rookie season. You're not even ready to give Mirotic the back up job and he's a superior prospect to what Horace was. And if you aren't willing to trade Taj for a 19 ppg SG in Martin along with Thompson and Waiters then I find it hard to believe you would've traded a 24-year-old PF averaging 12/13, leading the league in rebounding and a strong defender for an aging center who had been benched and was being phased out of New York.

[DanTown8587]

It's Oakley for Cartwright all over again. Sounds like you would've turned that deal down too.

I've already noted why i don't agree with this comparison.

You still wouldn't have made that trade though, it's obvious. You wouldn't have been ready to give Horace the starting PF role after an average rookie season. You're not even ready to give Mirotic the back up job and he's a superior prospect to what Horace was. And if you aren't willing to trade Taj for a 19 ppg SG in Martin along with Thompson and Waiters then I find it hard to believe you would've traded a 24-year-old PF averaging 12/13, leading the league in rebounding and a strong defender for an aging center who had been benched and was being phased out of New York.

The question I always wondered for that deal is did the Bulls insist on Oakley or did the Knicks? I wonder how the two teams valued Oakley v Grant's long term values.

[johnnyvann840]

So Taj's trade value is now equal to Goran Dragic, a guy who just was voted to the All-NBA third team, was a runaway winner for MIP, and just put up a season of 20-6 and had a season that rivals Derrick's MVP years in numbers.

I think it's pretty fair. Taj had some accolades last season as well. Runner up for 6th man is on the level 3rd team all NBA. And Taj was a beast in the playoffs and really nearly every time he played big minutes. But, the main dynamic here is that the Suns are in a spot where they cannot really keep both Dragic and Bledsoe if they pay Bledsoe what he wants and Taj is exactly what the Suns need right now.

I didn't really expect an argument but somehow 2nd in Sixth Man = top 15 player in the NBA now.

I mean this is out of hand. If it was anyone else I'd assume they were trolling me but I know your affinity for Taj so the problem is I do believe that you think this highly of Taj.

Let me just tell you that Taj Gibson and Goran Dragic are not close in trade value.

No, Taj is not a top 15 player. But guys like Ibaka and Milsap were getting multiple votes for 3rd team and Taj is on their level for sure. Al Jefferson was 3rd team.

I look at it this way Dan. When guys like Manu are Taj's comp and most think he was robbed of beating out the winner who put up 19 PPG . Also, Dragic has been around for 6 years and last season was BY FAR his best.. Can he repeat it? In another system?

But, I agree that the Bulls would have to throw in a future 1st, likely.

[Kaled]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/SamAmicoFSO/status/492888722246213633[/tweet]

Earlier this week there were reports that he preferred Chicago over Cleveland, now its the other way around. I won't believe any of these reports until Love comes forward and says what he actually prefers.

[kingkirk]

I get that you don't want to deal Taj for Martin but that's not my question. My question is who WOULD you deal Taj for, not who wouldn't.

And for the record, it's not a 1-1 swap and if it was, I'd be against it to.

There are 2 teams i'd be keeping an eye with what they're doing with their wings, in particular with the way they play and rely on small ball.

DEN & PHO.

Afflalo, Foye & Chandler are all of interest to me. I would not deal any of them straight up for Gibson, though.

In PHO, i am interested to see what they do with their PG spot. Dragic, with his ability to play both guard spots whilst also being a risk mitigation strategy at point should Rose break down again, i would deal him instantly for Gibson. If a package could be worked out around those two, i'd do it.

Martin was 4th in PPG amongst all SGs last season. I think Gibson is a better player than Martin.

What does that say about the league at that position in general? Maybe we have holes here, but that's possibly a league wide issue, which we may be ignoring.

[Polynice4Pippen]

I've already noted why i don't agree with this comparison.

You still wouldn't have made that trade though, it's obvious. You wouldn't have been ready to give Horace the starting PF role after an average rookie season. You're not even ready to give Mirotic the back up job and he's a superior prospect to what Horace was. And if you aren't willing to trade Taj for a 19 ppg SG in Martin along with Thompson and Waiters then I find it hard to believe you would've traded a 24-year-old PF averaging 12/13, leading the league in rebounding and a strong defender for an aging center who had been benched and was being phased out of New York.

The question I always wondered for that deal is did the Bulls insist on Oakley or did the Knicks? I wonder how the two teams valued Oakley v Grant's long term values.

N.B.A.; Cartwright Traded To Bulls for Oakley
By SAM GOLDAPER
Published: June 28, 1988
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Bill Cartwright, who has never been thrilled with his role as a backup center to Patrick Ewing, got his wish to be traded last night.

The Knicks sent Cartwright, 31 years old, to the Chicago Bulls for 6-foot-8-inch Charles Oakley, one of league's top power forwards. The Knicks also swapped first- and third-round draft choices with the Bulls in today's National Basketball Association draft at the Felt Forum.

The Knicks gave the Bulls their 11th pick in return for Chicago's 19th. In the third round, Chicago will have the 62d choice and New York the 69th. Top Power Forward

''We've obtained one of premier power forwards and rebounders in the N.B.A.,'' said Al Bianchi, the Knicks' general manager. ''We have really solidified the power-forward position. I think we can walk away saying that the Knicks are happy and the Chicago Bulls filled their need for a center.''

Cartwright, who reportedly earns $1.2 million a year, has two years plus an option year remaining on his contract. The 24-year-old Oakley signed a new contract through the 1992-93 season last year. He earns $1 million a year.

The Knicks' major weakness last season was lack of a forward who could score and rebound. They were hoping to draft 6-8 Chris Morris of Auburn, but they were unsure he would be available when they were scheduled to make their first pick.

Rick Pitino, the Knick coach, said Oakley, the Bulls' top draft choice in 1985 out of Virginia Union College, fills the power-forward gap in their lineup.

''I'm ecstatic,'' Pitino said. ''We've acquired one of the top power forwards in the game of basketball. He has strength and youth.''

Oakley, who averaged 12.1 points a game last season, was second to Michael Cage of the Los Angeles Clippers in rebounding. Playing in all 82 games, Oakley had 1,066 rebounds, the most in the league. But in rebounds per game, he lost out to Cage, 13.03 to 13.00.

The Bulls, who won 50 games this season but were eliminated in the opening round of the playoffs by the Detroit Pistons, have long sought a center who can score. There had been reports that they were interested in signing Moses Malone, the Washington Bullets' unrestricted free agent. But the acquisition of Cartwright, who had a 16.78 career scoring average since he came into the league as the Knicks' No. 1 draft choice in 1979, puts an end to the speculation. Relying on Cartwright

''We're happy to acquire the services of a proven low-post scoring center,'' said Jerry Krause, the Bulls' vice president of operations. ''At 31, we feel Bill has excellent years of basketball ahead of him. Also, by obtaining the 11th pick in the draft, we put ourselves in a better position. The development of Horace Grant helped us make such a deal. We feel Horace can be a quality player and develop like Charles Oakley.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/06/28/sport ... akley.html

[kingkirk]

You still wouldn't have made that trade though, it's obvious. You wouldn't have been ready to give Horace the starting PF role after an average rookie season. You're not even ready to give Mirotic the back up job and he's a superior prospect to what Horace was. And if you aren't willing to trade Taj for a 19 ppg SG in Martin along with Thompson and Waiters then I find it hard to believe you would've traded a 24-year-old PF averaging 12/13, leading the league in rebounding and a strong defender for an aging center who had been benched and was being phased out of New York.

If Mirotic gives up 8 & 5 in his first season as back up, like Grant did behind Oakley in his first season, i would be prepared to deal Gibson, like Krause did with Oakley.

Now, before Mirotic has played, for Kevin Martin in a straight swap?

No deal.

[RedBulls23]

I get that you don't want to deal Taj for Martin but that's not my question. My question is who WOULD you deal Taj for, not who wouldn't.

And for the record, it's not a 1-1 swap and if it was, I'd be against it to.

There are 2 teams i'd be keeping an eye with what they're doing with their wings, in particular with the way they play and rely on small ball.

DEN & PHO.

Afflalo, Foye & Chandler are all of interest to me. I would not deal any of them straight up for Gibson, though.

In PHO, i am interested to see what they do with their PG spot. Dragic, with his ability to play both guard spots whilst also being a risk mitigation strategy at point should Rose break down again, i would deal him instantly for Gibson. If a package could be worked out around those two, i'd do it.

Martin was 4th in PPG amongst all SGs last season. I think Gibson is a better player than Martin.

What does that say about the league at that position in general? Maybe we have holes here, but that's possibly a league wide issue, which we may be ignoring.

I'm confused on what those two in bold provide that we already don't have?

Bulls need a guy that can give them the type of offense Martin provides.