[POLL] Kevin Garnett: Where do you rank him?

[lorak]

Spoiler:

The funniest thing about the 08 celtics is the amount of impact guys want to attribute to Garnett. He produced sub par defenses for most of his career, then he goes to play for the best defensive coach of our generation, and suddenly he's referred to as a defensive god. The same defensive coach who has shown his abilty to produce elite defensive teams in chicago (regardless of how injured his roster is)consistently without KG, something KG hasn't been able to do without Thibs.

The thing is that while Thibodeau's defenses in Chicago were very good, they weren't as good as Celtics with KG on the floor:

Code: Select all

YEAR   w/ KG   CHI
2008   -10,2   ---
2009   -9,7   ---
2010   -5,5   ---
2011   -9,2   -7
2012   -6,7   -6,3
2013   -6,6   -2,7
2014   -3,3   -6,2


-9 or -10 is all time GOAT level stuff and it's not like without KG Celtics were also as good (or even close to that):

Code: Select all

YEAR   w/o KG
2008   -6,1
2009   -2,5
2010   -0,9
2011   -2,9
2012   -5,2
2013   2,4
2014   2,4


So except of 2012 KG improved his teams defenses on all time great level and without him Thibodeau's defensive schemes simply weren't as effective - even in Chicago, when he had so good defensive players like Deng and Noah.

Except you're attributing this to the impact of 1 player for some strange reason. Regardless of weather he was on or off the floor, it's impossible to Isolate KG's impact from the schemes he was running. What you're basically saying is that the defense of the celtics wasn't as good when Boston went Small when KG wasn't in the game. Thats like saying if there's a drop off defensively when Noah is out the game it means he's the mastermind behind the defense and not Thibs. In reality, unless KG and Noah are playing outside of Thibs defensive schemes, there's no way to separate them from the schemes they were running. Whiles on the other hand Thibs has produced elite defenses without either of them at a given time.

Again your stat is basically punishing Thibs for not having a back up who had the size and speed, to defend the paint like he needs in his system.

You are missing the point, so maybe simple question will help you - why these amazing Thibs schemes didn't produce as good defensive result in Chicago (even with Noah on the floor, so no need to talk about backups) as in Boston with KG?

[WhateverBro]

I don't like that way of thinking cause it's basically punishing the Pistons for producing 4 less points because the league averge wasn't as high. Also by that regard the Pacera would somehow be a better defensive team than the Pistons

Different rules, offenses are more advanced etc. If you want a clear picture, you have to compare numbers to league average.

The league scored alot less in general during the early 00s, and IIRC, the 03-04 season was the lowest scoring season during the 00s.

[Purch]

Spoiler:

The thing is that while Thibodeau's defenses in Chicago were very good, they weren't as good as Celtics with KG on the floor:

Code: Select all

YEAR   w/ KG   CHI
2008   -10,2   ---
2009   -9,7   ---
2010   -5,5   ---
2011   -9,2   -7
2012   -6,7   -6,3
2013   -6,6   -2,7
2014   -3,3   -6,2


-9 or -10 is all time GOAT level stuff and it's not like without KG Celtics were also as good (or even close to that):

Code: Select all

YEAR   w/o KG
2008   -6,1
2009   -2,5
2010   -0,9
2011   -2,9
2012   -5,2
2013   2,4
2014   2,4


So except of 2012 KG improved his teams defenses on all time great level and without him Thibodeau's defensive schemes simply weren't as effective - even in Chicago, when he had so good defensive players like Deng and Noah.

Except you're attributing this to the impact of 1 player for some strange reason. Regardless of weather he was on or off the floor, it's impossible to Isolate KG's impact from the schemes he was running. What you're basically saying is that the defense of the celtics wasn't as good when Boston went Small when KG wasn't in the game. Thats like saying if there's a drop off defensively when Noah is out the game it means he's the mastermind behind the defense and not Thibs. In reality, unless KG and Noah are playing outside of Thibs defensive schemes, there's no way to separate them from the schemes they were running. Whiles on the other hand Thibs has produced elite defenses without either of them at a given time.

Again your stat is basically punishing Thibs for not having a back up who had the size and speed, to defend the paint like he needs in his system.

You are missing the point, so maybe simple question will help you - why these amazing Thibs schemes didn't produce as good defensive result in Chicago (even with Noah on the floor, so no need to talk about backups) as in Boston with KG?

Think about what you're asking. Youre asking why a team that played Carlos Boozer for 30+ minutes a night didnt produce the same level of defense as a Boston team filed with defensive players. The fact that they produced elite defenses whiles depending on a soft defensive liability in their front court is an even stronger support of Thibs genuis. And it's not like D-rose was putting Rondo like pressure on ball handlers

[ceiling raiser]

I don't like that way of thinking cause it's basically punishing the Pistons for producing 4 less points because the league averge wasn't as high. Also by that regard the Pacera would somehow be a better defensive team than the Pistons

Different rules, offenses are more advanced etc. If you want a clear picture, you have to compare numbers to league average.

The league scored alot less in general during the early 00s, and IIRC, the 03-04 season was the lowest scoring season during the 00s.

Also, the graphic is only through January. For the entire year, I think Indy was -7.4.

[WhateverBro]

I don't like that way of thinking cause it's basically punishing the Pistons for producing 4 less points because the league averge wasn't as high. Also by that regard the Pacera would somehow be a better defensive team than the Pistons

Different rules, offenses are more advanced etc. If you want a clear picture, you have to compare numbers to league average.

The league scored alot less in general during the early 00s, and IIRC, the 03-04 season was the lowest scoring season during the 00s.

Also, the graphic is only through January. For the entire year, I think Indy was -7.4.

Yeah, they obviously collapsed during the second half of their season. Hehe, kind of amazing that they managed to pull out such a great defensive season even with how they played during the second half of the season.

[ardee]

7-10 on my list.

This man has an agenda...

How can KG be voted only from 7-10?

He should be no 1. He was a top 5 player from 1998-2013. His 1998 and 1999 seasons were better than Kobe in his peak year of 2006. If his weakest seasons were better than peak Kobe, his strongest are better than peak Jordan. His RAPM also was higher than Jordan's, so that should settle any debate.

[Blast Tyrant]

Spoiler:

??????????
Walton has no business anywhere near the top 20, he only had a few healthy seasons.

Yeah but he was the best player in the world at the time. (Aside from Kareem) He was KG before KG. Leading the league in rebounds and blocks, being a big man with a mid range game and great passing. I see your side of it, being that he had zero longevity. But his 77 season is better than Garnett's 04 season in my opinion.

Walton's injury issues were so bad he only had two somewhat healthy prime seasons (77, 78) and played less than 500 games over his entire career. And he only played 65 and 58 games in 77 and 78. I just don't see how he could be anywhere near Top 15-20.

I can totally see your side of that. To me, his peak (albeit very short) was simply transcendent. I can totally understand people having Garnett above him just based on longevity, but if I had to take one of them in their prime it's Walton.

[lorak]

Think about what you're asking. Youre asking why a team that played Carlos Boozer for 30+ minutes a night didnt produce the same level of defense as a Boston team filed with defensive players.

Haha, it's really interesting how you see reasons why Bulls weren't better, but at the same time don't see (or rather don't want to admit) reasons why Celtics were so good. So for me it's EOT.

[Purch]

Think about what you're asking. Youre asking why a team that played Carlos Boozer for 30+ minutes a night didnt produce the same level of defense as a Boston team filed with defensive players.

Haha, it's really interesting how you see reasons why Bulls weren't better, but at the same time don't see (or rather don't want to admit) reasons why Celtics were so good. So for me it's EOT.

Thats the thing. I see completley different pieces on both, with one constant elevating them to elite level. And yes the Celtics had better defensive pieces than the bulls , I don't see what I haven't admitted about that. If you want me to point at KG as the biggest factor to the celtics defense, there's no way I could do that with his history of anchoring sub par defenses, whiles playing 40 minutes a game in most of them. Especilly considering Thibs ability to produce elite defenses with what we both consider worst defensive players.

[Matt15]

I have him ranked between 15-20.

[JordansBulls]

Top 20 to 25

[ceiling raiser]

Gun to my head, top 5 to 8, in the mix with some of the other GOAT bigs.

[Joao Saraiva]

Instead of complaining about the results of the RealGM 100 - why don't you provide solid evidence that he is in fact not as good as some of his peers? I've been reading throught he whole project and thread after thread just keeps making Garnett stronger, while the majority of supporters of other players are whining about the results, rather than showing what makes other players a better choice than KG.

Just look at the thread for the 11th spot. I find it mind boggling that people can actually question KG at 11th place after the discussions held in that thread. He's a polarizing figure because he's not your typical all-time player (volume scoring, winning) but that does not mean that he isn't an all-time player. Tim Duncan would most likely suffer from the same thing if he was drafted by a team as poorly ran as Minnesota.

KG/Malone/Dirk//Barkley (I won't bring Duncan here because I think it's general consensus that Duncan is the better player)
Years with at least 25PPG. Reg season/Playoffs
KG: 0/1 (only played one round)
Barkley: 5/6
Malone: 12/12
Dirk: 5/9

Garnett is the one who scores less in volume. This is a fact. And does he compensate with effciency?
Garnett's best ts% is 58.9 and in the playoffs it's 56.9 with a 1st round exit. Seasons above KG for the other PFs:
Barkley: 8/9
Malone: 8/3 (two of them with more than 10 games in the playoffs)
Dirk: 5/8

So all the other PFs have reached much higher ts% than KG. Taking regular seasons samples (because all of them play a lot of games) they all have at least 5 seasons above KG's best. And they're scoring more volume.

Garnett is BY FAR the worse scorer among these 4 players.

Rebounding:
Seasons above 10 RPG: season/playoffs
KG: 9/10
Barkley: 15/12
Malone: 10/12
Nowitzki: 0/8

So KG is the 2nd best rebounder of the group (yes I think Barkley is the better one, KG 2nd and Malone 3rd). He only loses one season to Malone in 10RPG seasons but KG peaked higher as a rebounder. You can look at RPG at their best of TRB% and it will go along with the statement. However Malone is not that far from KG in terms of rebounding.

Playmaking: I'd say Malone, KG, Barkley and Dirk haven't got big gaps between them as playmakers. You might give them a lot of different ranking but none are relevant for seeing who's the best player since the gaps are small.

Let's also see some advanced stats. PER
Seasons above 25 PER: season/playoffs
KG: 5/3 (2 post seasons are 25 PER and best 25.5)
Barkley: 7/5 (post seasons best at 27.8 on 10 games)
Malone: 9/2 (similar post season best in PER as KG)
Dirk: 4/6 (best at 28.4)

PER says Barkley and Dirk are the best players of the bunch. PER is not a perfect stat. It also says Malone is usually a better RS performer than KG but he drops his production in the playoffs, making it similar to KG.
1. Barkley
2. Dirk
3. Malone
4. KG

Above 20 WS/48 seasons: REG Season/playoffs:
KG: 5/1
Barkley: 10/6
Malone: 12/2
Dirk: 8/6

1. Dirk (he's the only one close to 30WS/48 in playoff time, his best seasons are clearly the best between these guys)
2. Barkley
3. Malone
4. KG

Unless Kevin Garnett is god on D, he's not even better than Duncan, Malone, Barkley and Dirk. How can he be the 5th best PF I've seen playing and be 11 on an all time list? And you go as far as saying 7-10? Sorry but that's too high for Kevin Garnett.

Cs better than KG: Russell, KAJ, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem
PFs: Malone, Barkley, Duncan, Dirk
SFs: LeBron, Bird
SGs: Jordan, Kobe Bryant
PGs: Magic Johnson (I'd say a few more more but it's debatable because of KG's impact on D).

So absolutely no way KG is #11.

[Jaivl]

Unless Kevin Garnett is god on D

He is. Or at least a superhero. Or at least insanely better than Barkley, way better than Dirk and clearly better than Malone.

[Rapcity_11]

7-10 on my list.

This man has an agenda...

How can KG be voted only from 7-10?

He should be no 1. He was a top 5 player from 1998-2013. His 1998 and 1999 seasons were better than Kobe in his peak year of 2006. If his weakest seasons were better than peak Kobe, his strongest are better than peak Jordan. His RAPM also was higher than Jordan's, so that should settle any debate.

If you're tired of talking about KG and keep whining about where other posters rank him, maybe stop reading/posting in KG threads?

[Joao Saraiva]

Unless Kevin Garnett is god on D

He is. Or at least a superhero. Or at least insanely better than Barkley, way better than Dirk and clearly better than Malone.

I'm even wondering how Gasol was successfull against God in the NBA finals of 2010. Or how LeBron got so many great games against Boston when it's so difficult in the paint vs KG.

KG is great on D, but let's not act like Malone was liability there. KG is the best of the group but the margin does not compensate a ton of areas where KG is the worse player.

Dirk is a diferent kind of PF but he elevates his game a ton in the playoffs. I'll take Dirk's impact and spacing for other players in a heartbeat over KG's defensive impact.

[Black Feet]

15-20 don't see him being better than Malone or D-Rob or even Dirk but those players don't have the same cult following on this site.

[Jaivl]

Unless Kevin Garnett is god on D

He is. Or at least a superhero. Or at least insanely better than Barkley, way better than Dirk and clearly better than Malone.

I'm even wondering how Gasol was successfull against God in the NBA finals of 2010. Or how LeBron got so many great games against Boston when it's so difficult in the paint vs KG.

I wonder how Thurmond could stop prime Kareem, or how LeBron couldn't attack the basket against Dallas, etc. All players have highs and lows, for godness sake. Post-prime KG being outplayed in a couple of games/series proves absolutely nothing.

I'll take Dirk's impact and spacing for other players in a heartbeat over KG's defensive impact.

Well, do it. But don't ridiculize the people who don't (and this doesn't go only for you).

[HeartBreakKid]

Unless Kevin Garnett is god on D

He is. Or at least a superhero. Or at least insanely better than Barkley, way better than Dirk and clearly better than Malone.

I'm even wondering how Gasol was successfull against God in the NBA finals of 2010. Or how LeBron got so many great games against Boston when it's so difficult in the paint vs KG.

KG is great on D, but let's not act like Malone was liability there. KG is the best of the group but the margin does not compensate a ton of areas where KG is the worse player.

Dirk is a diferent kind of PF but he elevates his game a ton in the playoffs. I'll take Dirk's impact and spacing for other players in a heartbeat over KG's defensive impact.

2010 was Garnett's comeback from a major injury, that was probably the worst season of his career before last season, is him being out played by peak Pau Gasol really that much of a downer? Not like Malone never been outplayed either.

I don't understand how James having all time great games against Boston means anything. Not sure if you've heard, but that James guy is pretty good.

[ardee]

7-10 on my list.

This man has an agenda...

How can KG be voted only from 7-10?

He should be no 1. He was a top 5 player from 1998-2013. His 1998 and 1999 seasons were better than Kobe in his peak year of 2006. If his weakest seasons were better than peak Kobe, his strongest are better than peak Jordan. His RAPM also was higher than Jordan's, so that should settle any debate.

If you're tired of talking about KG and keep whining about where other posters rank him, maybe stop reading/posting in KG threads?

If someone ranks the GOAT that low I'll definitely whine.

How can anyone think KG is out of the top 3? He was a better offensive player than Dirk at everything but scoring, a better scorer than TD and a better defender than Russell with better longevity than Karl Malone.

Easy GOAT for me. The project lost credibility by ranking him at 11.

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