Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Polynice4Pippen]

I wasn't all that impressed with our big free agent signing....not by himself. The problem simply isn't who guards Love. It is the mis-matches and lanes that he creates.

Noah is the teams best big defender and best rebounder. Love pulls him 20 feet from basket while Irving and Bron are playing off each other or running 1/5 or 3/5 pick and rolls with AV.

And what about the problems we'll have with generating offense at the end of games with only one perimeter guy who can create their own offense and provide volume scoring? We can talk all the defense we want, but we're not a championship team until we upgrade that position, simple as that.

Have faith in this dude.




HE COMIN'

So have faith in McDermott but have absolutely no faith in Mirotic to even be ready for back up minutes?

[panthermark]

If Taj plays down the stretch against Love defensively, then Pau sits. And if our big free agent signing is on the bench at the end of games like Boozer then was it really that great of a signing? Besides, Joakim will be the one guarding Love, and he'll do just fine.

I wasn't all that impressed with our big free agent signing....not by himself. The problem simply isn't who guards Love. It is the mis-matches and lanes that he creates.

Noah is the teams best big defender and best rebounder. Love pulls him 20 feet from basket while Irving and Bron are playing off each other or running 1/5 or 3/5 pick and rolls with AV.

And what about the problems we'll have with generating offense at the end of games with only one perimeter guy who can create their own offense and provide volume scoring? We can talk all the defense we want, but we're not a championship team until we upgrade that position, simple as that.

Like I said originally, to an extent I agree with you. My solution to your question.

Go balls deep for Love.

If we don't get him and the Cavs get him....we will have to play turtle ball. That is why I want Love first....and if not, go after Martin with MDJ/Snell and keep Taj. We may need both Taj and Noah on the court.

[Shill]

And what about the problems we'll have with generating offense at the end of games with only one perimeter guy who can create their own offense and provide volume scoring? We can talk all the defense we want, but we're not a championship team until we upgrade that position, simple as that.

Have faith in this dude.




HE COMIN'

So have faith in McDermott but have absolutely no faith in Mirotic to even be ready for back up minutes?

Mirotic can give us backup minutes. Pau just gave us a unique opportunity to improve the team, IMO.


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[AKfanatic]

So who sits at the end of games; Taj or Pau? It's a great dilemma for a coach to have, true. At best Taj closes out half the games, maybe a little more. Kevin Martin would close out 99% of the games at SG.

Would he really? Zero chance that Thibs closes out games with Rose (if healthy), Butler, and Hinrich? Or butler/dunleavy? maybe snell shows improved D and Thibs closes games with Snell/Butler. Choices, choices, choices... We as fans may prefer specific players or combinations of players at the end of games, Thibs could care less what we prefer. One thing we do know, given the choice to close a game with D or O, Thibs more likely than not will go with D.

But those are all clearly inferior lineups to a backcourt of Rose and Martin. Rose/Hinrich/Butler in the 4th quarter against an elite defensive team is not going to cut it, sorry. Rose and Martin together allows you the option of adding a defensive guy with them (Butler, Hinrich) or a shooter (McDermott, Snell) or even another offensive guy (Brooks). As long as Butler and Noah are on the floor we'd be closing out games with defense.

Are they the inferior option to Thibs though? That's the real question. If he doesn't trust Martin on the defensive end of the court, does anyone really believe he'd be closing games? As I said, we as fans can scream until we're blue in the face as to whom should be closing out a game, and I'm sure there will be many times we disagree with whom he (Thibs) has out there in crunch time, in the end it'll be Thibs making the decision. I'd be willing to bet, if we had Martin, Butler, Snell, Hinrich, and a healthy Rose, that more often than not Martin would be grabbing pine next to Snell at the end of games.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Have faith in this dude.




HE COMIN'

So have faith in McDermott but have absolutely no faith in Mirotic to even be ready for back up minutes?

Mirotic can give us backup minutes. Pau just gave us a unique opportunity to improve the team, IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I agree that both Mirotic and McBuckets are ready to provide back up minutes. Which is why I could live with losing Taj in exchange for a SG who can give us starter minutes, playmaking and legit volume scoring, especially if we could get back another young big (Dieng or Thompson) to give us front court depth off the bench.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Would he really? Zero chance that Thibs closes out games with Rose (if healthy), Butler, and Hinrich? Or butler/dunleavy? maybe snell shows improved D and Thibs closes games with Snell/Butler. Choices, choices, choices... We as fans may prefer specific players or combinations of players at the end of games, Thibs could care less what we prefer. One thing we do know, given the choice to close a game with D or O, Thibs more likely than not will go with D.

But those are all clearly inferior lineups to a backcourt of Rose and Martin. Rose/Hinrich/Butler in the 4th quarter against an elite defensive team is not going to cut it, sorry. Rose and Martin together allows you the option of adding a defensive guy with them (Butler, Hinrich) or a shooter (McDermott, Snell) or even another offensive guy (Brooks). As long as Butler and Noah are on the floor we'd be closing out games with defense.

Are they the inferior option to Thibs though? That's the real question. If he doesn't trust Martin on the defensive end of the court, does anyone really believe he'd be closing games? As I said, we as fans can scream until we're blue in the face as to whom should be closing out a game, and I'm sure there will be many times we disagree with whom he (Thibs) has out there in crunch time, in the end it'll be Thibs making the decision. I'd be willing to bet, if we had Martin, Butler, Snell, Hinrich, and a healthy Rose, that more often than not Martin would be grabbing pine next to Snell at the end of games.

So then why did Thibs ride Korver at the end of games over superior defenders like Bogans, Brewer and Butler? Martin would be out there at the end of games with Derrick and it would give us an offensive dynamic we haven't had since the Rose/Gordon/Salmons run when even the great Celtics defense had trouble containing that offense.

[Axl Rose]

we're still arguing about that mythical Taj trade Ralph made up?

More like we're still arguing over finally replacing your boy BG.

he'll never be replaced in my heart

[AKfanatic]

But those are all clearly inferior lineups to a backcourt of Rose and Martin. Rose/Hinrich/Butler in the 4th quarter against an elite defensive team is not going to cut it, sorry. Rose and Martin together allows you the option of adding a defensive guy with them (Butler, Hinrich) or a shooter (McDermott, Snell) or even another offensive guy (Brooks). As long as Butler and Noah are on the floor we'd be closing out games with defense.

Are they the inferior option to Thibs though? That's the real question. If he doesn't trust Martin on the defensive end of the court, does anyone really believe he'd be closing games? As I said, we as fans can scream until we're blue in the face as to whom should be closing out a game, and I'm sure there will be many times we disagree with whom he (Thibs) has out there in crunch time, in the end it'll be Thibs making the decision. I'd be willing to bet, if we had Martin, Butler, Snell, Hinrich, and a healthy Rose, that more often than not Martin would be grabbing pine next to Snell at the end of games.

So then why did Thibs ride Korver at the end of games over superior defenders like Bogans, Brewer and Butler? Martin would be out there at the end of games with Derrick and it would give us an offensive dynamic we haven't had since the Rose/Gordon/Salmons run when even the great Celtics defense had trouble containing that offense.

1. Korver actually tried on defense, Martin has yet to meet a defensive set he couldn't lazily screw up. Then again, maybe it's a lack of actual defensive teams around him...I don't know.

2. Bogans and Brewer brought absolute zero on the offensive end, Butler had yet to prove himself capable. There's a solid chance Butler shows to be closer to year 2 Butler than last season Butler. If that's the case, he'll be in games.


Regardless of what I, you, or anyone else assumes and speculates on, we don't know. Maybe Martin joins the Bulls and we become an arse kicking machine, maybe Thibs chokes him out after multiple defensive lapses. I wouldn't mind him + pieces for Taj. I wouldn't swap the two straight up at this point. Not without knowing what Niko can give us. As of right now our depth in the front court consists of 3 guys, two of which have been battling injuries. I could just imagine the all caps posts pertaining to GarPax if Noah went down, Niko wasn't ready, and we had no Taj. Though I suppose Nazr or Chris Richards could always be waiting in the wings to save our front court.

[bpchamp23]

Jalen Rose?

That wasn't Pax, it was Krause and I would say that Brad Miller and Ron Artest whom we gave up were better than Jalen.

Jalen was better at the time, but Artest was on his way to something very solid and ultimately became better. Krause thought Jalen would be enough to put us over the top. We weren't even close to being ready to be a playoff team when that deal was made. No idea what Krause was thinking, other than he was tired of watching us struggle to score.

He had to sell tickets. He nneded a proven player to market.

Jalen is the reason I started to watch the Bulls religiously as a young kid. As much fun as it was watching Ron Mercer hit that game-tying three in the Shaq/Brad Miller game -- Krause got the best player in the deal. Jalen could ball. He put up great numbers in the 2000 finals versus the Lakers. 30+ points twice, one 29 point game, shot 47% overall. The Pacers get knocked out in the first round by Iverson the following postseason --- and then boom, traded 8 months later. Prime of his career. Never on a contender again. It's a damn shame.

One of the funnest b-ball games I've ever been to was back in March 2003. Clippers and Bulls. Jalen had one hell of a game. He did the head bump thing a few times after a bucket, obviously trolling Darius Miles and Quentin Richardson. Cool time as a kid seeing all those guys live.

[EastBayFJ]

Lebron James will never leave the cavaliers again. He wants to maximize off of the TV deal. He said in his letter that he knows they wouldn't win immediately and that his patience would be tested. Doesn't sound like a guy that's planning on leaving home again after emphatically stating I'M COMING HOME.

Love is going to the Cavs unless they mess it up themselves.

If that's the case then Wiggins is included .

If not - he's not

Does Love or LMA or any other expiring free agent next summer sign short because of the TV deal ?

And if this is a compelling reason then why didn't Melo sign short ?

You could be right . Its just that I don't think you are - and until its absolutely definitive and he's inked long - if I'm Camp Love I don't sign long in Cleveland

Are you a new NBA fan or have you been watching for awhile? How often do you see teams refuse to trade players who absolutely want out? If I'm Love, I certainly have a conversation with LeBron about his intentions. However, I need my guaranteed money now because I don't make the money LeBron makes off the court. If LeBron leaves and the team goes into rebuild mode, my agent will make sure that the team knows that I will not be a good soldier sitting around that team. Love has to sign the long term deal. As do most other player's in the league. They don't have the coin already saved up like LeBron or the earning potential to take a risk like LeBron can.

My man ....we're talking the same thing - that's why I said I don't see Love signing a long term deal in Cleveland

I had said earlier in the exchange with Evil - that on that basis ( for the high liklihood that he needs guaranteed bucks now ) that I don't see him in Cleveland at all for the very reason of James's long term uncertainty.

The percentage of unlikihood I quoted ( of Love being in Cleveland at all ) was 99%

[Polynice4Pippen]

Are they the inferior option to Thibs though? That's the real question. If he doesn't trust Martin on the defensive end of the court, does anyone really believe he'd be closing games? As I said, we as fans can scream until we're blue in the face as to whom should be closing out a game, and I'm sure there will be many times we disagree with whom he (Thibs) has out there in crunch time, in the end it'll be Thibs making the decision. I'd be willing to bet, if we had Martin, Butler, Snell, Hinrich, and a healthy Rose, that more often than not Martin would be grabbing pine next to Snell at the end of games.

So then why did Thibs ride Korver at the end of games over superior defenders like Bogans, Brewer and Butler? Martin would be out there at the end of games with Derrick and it would give us an offensive dynamic we haven't had since the Rose/Gordon/Salmons run when even the great Celtics defense had trouble containing that offense.

1. Korver actually tried on defense, Martin has yet to meet a defensive set he couldn't lazily screw up. Then again, maybe it's a lack of actual defensive teams around him...I don't know.

2. Bogans and Brewer brought absolute zero on the offensive end, Butler had yet to prove himself capable. There's a solid chance Butler shows to be closer to year 2 Butler than last season Butler. If that's the case, he'll be in games.


Regardless of what I, you, or anyone else assumes and speculates on, we don't know. Maybe Martin joins the Bulls and we become an arse kicking machine, maybe Thibs chokes him out after multiple defensive lapses. I wouldn't mind him + pieces for Taj. I wouldn't swap the two straight up at this point. Not without knowing what Niko can give us. As of right now our depth in the front court consists of 3 guys, two of which have been battling injuries. I could just imagine the all caps posts pertaining to GarPax if Noah went down, Niko wasn't ready, and we had no Taj. Though I suppose Nazr or Chris Richards could always be waiting in the wings to save our front court.

Point is to at least give Thibs options at the SG position. If he wants to go defense, that's his choice. If he wants to have some offense and a proven scorer, he has that option as well with Martin.

And I just find it interesting that no one believes Mirotic is capable of even back up minutes at this point. Norris Cole came right in and handled back up minutes for Miami. Adams did the same for OKC, Kawhi Leonard handled starting right away for San Antonio. And Mirotic makes considerably more money than all those guys, is older, a professional and has far more experience than all of those guys. If we got Thompson back in a Taj deal then we'd maintain enough front court depth and be able to deal with a short term injury to Jo with Thompson being experienced and able to step in and play alongside Pau.

[Rerisen]

Gasol didn't leave LA and the promise of more riches to sit on a bench for Taj friggin Gibson.

Does Thibs care what he left for? He's here now and will abide by the rules of Mr. T. You think Carlos Boozer left Utah and All Star appearances to sit on the bench behind Taj Gibson? No he did not, but he did anyway.

Because this is our coach, Mr T - and the T is for Turtle.

[TheStig]

And what about the problems we'll have with generating offense at the end of games with only one perimeter guy who can create their own offense and provide volume scoring? We can talk all the defense we want, but we're not a championship team until we upgrade that position, simple as that.

Have faith in this dude.




HE COMIN'

So have faith in McDermott but have absolutely no faith in Mirotic to even be ready for back up minutes?

Yeah I don't get why everyone here rights off Mirotic. GarPax were getting top 10 pick offers for him this summer. I think long term, he projects better than Dougie.

[NecessaryEvil]

Gasol didn't leave LA and the promise of more riches to sit on a bench for Taj friggin Gibson.

Does Thibs care what he left for? He's here now and will abide by the rules of Mr. T. You think Carlos Boozer left Utah and All Star appearances to sit on the bench behind Taj Gibson? No he did not, but he did anyway.

Carlos Boozer left Utah getting outplayed by Paul Milsap on a regular basis. I honestly didn't even think Boozer would make it through his contract as a Chicago Bull and I was right since 2010 (although a tad late in my assumption).

Pau Gasol's situation is nothing like Boozer's and never will be. He's just a much better player than Taj Gibson.

[Chi town]

So is the mystery player that Ralph is referring to?

[Concept Coop]

Carlos Boozer left Utah getting outplayed by Paul Milsap on a regular basis. I honestly didn't even think Boozer would make it through his contract as a Chicago Bull and I was right since 2010 (although a tad late in my assumption).

I live in Utah, watch a lot of Jazz games, and this simply isn't true. Milsap was a better defender, but not above average overall, due to his lack of length. Milsap was playing great and a lot fans that wanted Milsap over Boozer based on cost. After Boozer left, however, Milsap couldn't live up, offensively.

Boozer was a quality signing at the time. Perhaps it was the system's influence on his numbers were underated--same with D.Williams--but he was in his prime and a bordline all-star at the time--and a better player than Paul Milsap.

[Chi]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Sources close to Love have said they were urging people to dial back the “Cleveland or else” message and that while Love seems open to all three of the situations being seriously considered – Cleveland, Golden State and Chicago, he is not willing to commit long-term to any of them as a first action. The ideal action is to hit free agency in July and ink a new long-term deal. The team that trades for him can give him the biggest financial package since they will have his Bird rights. Basketball Insiders

[Payt10]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Sources close to Love have said they were urging people to dial back the “Cleveland or else” message and that while Love seems open to all three of the situations being seriously considered – Cleveland, Golden State and Chicago, he is not willing to commit long-term to any of them as a first action. The ideal action is to hit free agency in July and ink a new long-term deal. The team that trades for him can give him the biggest financial package since they will have his Bird rights. Basketball Insiders

Speaks to what Windhorst has been saying and another guy (can't remember his name) were saying a few days ago. Hard to imagine the Bulls being serious about acquiring Love without a guarantee of an extension. Cleveland doesn't care because they have to do what Lebron wants.

[panthermark]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Sources close to Love have said they were urging people to dial back the “Cleveland or else” message and that while Love seems open to all three of the situations being seriously considered – Cleveland, Golden State and Chicago, he is not willing to commit long-term to any of them as a first action. The ideal action is to hit free agency in July and ink a new long-term deal. The team that trades for him can give him the biggest financial package since they will have his Bird rights. Basketball Insiders

That is good AND bad news for all three teams, but bad news for the Wolves.

If he isn't going to commit long term....time to scale back those offers.

Love is making this hard on Minny.

He is basically saying "trade me to one of these 3 teams...but because I won't commit long term to any of them, they won't give up a lot of assets. Oh, and if you don't trade me, I'm walking next year to LA.....good luck!"

[panthermark]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Sources close to Love have said they were urging people to dial back the “Cleveland or else” message and that while Love seems open to all three of the situations being seriously considered – Cleveland, Golden State and Chicago, he is not willing to commit long-term to any of them as a first action. The ideal action is to hit free agency in July and ink a new long-term deal. The team that trades for him can give him the biggest financial package since they will have his Bird rights. Basketball Insiders

Speaks to what Windhorst has been saying and another guy (can't remember his name) were saying a few days ago. Hard to imagine the Bulls being serious about acquiring Love without a guarantee of an extension. Cleveland doesn't care because they have to do what Lebron wants.

If I'm Cleveland, and he isn't committing long term....I'm not giving up Wiggins. Especially if Bron only signed a 2 year deal.

What a cluster-fudge.