Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[DRoseCantStop]

I think u should forget about love, ur team is already great

NO.

MUST HAVE LOVE.

[panthermark]

And the Bulls front office thinks the upgrade is Waiters. The Bulls love him and have been trying to nab him since the draft. .

BTW Deng regressed on that team last yr as well and cost him money. That's the thing people miss imo. It's that getting those players on a, real team can help.

Heck didn't Kyrie regress too?

I can see the "talent" in Waiters. But I don't understand the Bulls logic.
Different team...but we tried it with Tyrus. Didnt' work.
Big Ben became an ass....had to dump him.
We didn't want JR Smith.
James Johnson wasn't even a true headcase, but he got stuck in the dog house.


It seems like we are not that kinda of team....but maybe Nate showed them something (about needing talent)? Who knows...

[Jcool0]

See myth thread(s)...

Almost every championship team had:
1. Great all-around defense (at least top 10 in efficiency)
2. Consistent low-post scoring
3. Above average rim protection

Depth with borderline all-stars or top-heavy shallowness with superstars don't really matter, only as long they matter in any of the three traits.

Did you type that with a staright face?

I mean, the first 3 items you listed are true...

But almost all of them had major top end talent. The Spurs and Pistons were the teams that had the "least" top end talent. The Piston's used record breaking defense and a short rotation. This most recent Spurs team set a record in the Finals for shooting percentages...and their "talent level" had more to do with age than actual talent being that the core of All-Stars/Superstar has been together for a dozen years and had already won 3 rings together.

WE ARE NOT THE SPURS.

Dallas won with only one "top end talent" and pretty good depth.

[Chi town]

No made up and to be quite honest I'm shocked by the negative views on both Waiters and Thompson. To me this seems like Homer talk on this page.

Bottom line is its Cleveland who doesn't want to send those guys to Chicago helping the Bulls out. I find all these post of late comical since I know the real story.

I've defended Waiters in the past, and he would scare me to death as a 4th option on the Cavs roster (behind Bron, Love, and Ivring). But I'm not all that crazy about him on this roster as our possible 2nd option behind Rose. He would make a great 6th man, but it appears he does not want that role.

6th man.. YES. 2nd option... NO!

[panthermark]

The beloved Taj Gibson is a career 9pts, 6rebs, 15per and 51% ts. So looking at the stats you put above, thanks btw, made my work easier. Yes I sit back and laugh at what people expect for Taj..

news flash guys the Bulls went out and spent over 12 mil, all our money on Taj s position.

About that news flash...

Where is the $12M coming from? I'm guessing Gasol is going to play a lot of center...and from what you said earlier...he (Gasol) was supposed to come with Melo. Not to mention the fact that Taj was in on signing Melo.

I do wonder if the issue with Real Madrid forced Chicago's hand? (I wonder if they really wanted to wait another year to sign Mitoric?) That would have made far more sense.

[panthermark]

Dallas won with only one "top end talent" and pretty good depth.

I know this sound worse than how I mean it (because it is over the web), but....are you making that up?

Dallas indeed had one star, but they used one of the shortest rotations in recent history in the finals.

It was literally a 7 man rotation.

Dirk - 40.4
Kidd - 37.4
Chandler - 37.3
Marion - 35.8
Terry - 32.6
Barea - 21.4
Stevenon - 17.2

That is basically it....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... inals.html

[Chi town]

And the Bulls front office thinks the upgrade is Waiters. The Bulls love him and have been trying to nab him since the draft. .

BTW Deng regressed on that team last yr as well and cost him money. That's the thing people miss imo. It's that getting those players on a, real team can help.

Heck didn't Kyrie regress too?

I can see the "talent" in Waiters. But I don't understand the Bulls logic.
Different team...but we tried it with Tyrus. Didnt' work.
Big Ben became an ass....had to dump him.
We didn't want JR Smith.
James Johnson wasn't even a true headcase, but he got stuck in the dog house.


It seems like we are not that kinda of team....but maybe Nate showed them something (about needing talent)? Who knows...

And1! This is exactly what I am thinking. I was all about Waiters last year in a Deng deal and think he could be a great 6th man scoring piece. I like his bulldog mentality and I've often thought he may be a byproduct of CLE and Kyrie's lack of leadership and hero ball.

What makes me nervous is his crazy tweets. Dude has no filter. Little self awareness.

If his talent could be channeled in our culture then he could be a piece that puts us over the top. I get that. But.... we shall see.

Ralph, I'd love to know that you and FO think about him. Praying for your continued recovery and success on your next operation.

[kuly1990]

The beloved Taj Gibson is a career 9pts, 6rebs, 15per and 51% ts. So looking at the stats you put above, thanks btw, made my work easier. Yes I sit back and laugh at what people expect for Taj..

news flash guys the Bulls went out and spent over 12 mil, all our money on Taj s position.

cmon man, what is this?

[Jcool0]

Dallas won with only one "top end talent" and pretty good depth.

I know this sound worse than how I mean it (because it is over the web), but....are you making that up?

Dallas indeed had one star, but they used one of the shortest rotations in recent history in the finals.

It was literally a 7 man rotation.

Dirk - 40.4
Kidd - 37.4
Chandler - 37.3
Marion - 35.8
Terry - 32.6
Barea - 21.4
Stevenon - 17.2

That is basically it....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... inals.html

And in the Western Conference finals:

Dirk Nowitzki - 40.5
Jason Kidd - 36.7
Shawn Marion: 33.5
Jason Terry: 33
Tyson Chandler: 31.8
DeShawn Stevenson: 20.8
Jose Barea: 16.9
Peja Stojakovic: 16.3
Brendan Haywood: 14.9

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I'd be excited if we could pull off Taj+MDJ for Waiters+Thompson.

Noah(32)/Gasol(16)/Bairstow
Gasol(14)/Mirotic(17)/Thompson(17)
Jimmy(16)/McDermott(32)
Waiters(32)/Jimmy(16)/Snell
Rose(35)/Hinrich or Brooks(13)

Rose: 35
Noah, Jimmy, McDermott, Waiters: 32
Gasol: 30
Mirotic, Thompson: 17
Hinrich or Brooks: 13

[FecesOfDeath]

Did you type that with a staright face?

I mean, the first 3 items you listed are true...

But almost all of them had major top end talent. The Spurs and Pistons were the teams that had the "least" top end talent. The Piston's used record breaking defense and a short rotation. This most recent Spurs team set a record in the Finals for shooting percentages...and their "talent level" had more to do with age than actual talent being that the core of All-Stars/Superstar has been together for a dozen years and had already won 3 rings together.

WE ARE NOT THE SPURS.

Those three previous Spurs championships were won in a totally different fashion, before Popovich totally re-hauled the offense in 2010-2011.

Certainly, top-end, superstar talent is a very common element among championship teams, but teams with top-end, superstar talent but lacking in any of those three elements are very likely not going to win a championship.

Barkley was MVP and his team had the best record, but the Suns lacked a rim protector to keep the Bulls from scoring inside with ease. The Jazz couldn't get past the Bulls despite having a consistent low-post threat and great rim-protection, because their overall defense wasn't good enough. In fact, the biggest tests the Bulls faced in their championship seasons (92 and 93 Knicks, 98 Pacers) were very, very good in those three areas.

[Rerisen]

You wouldn't look at Taj Gibson's stat averages to find his true value, as 75% of his value is on defense. And without him, we won't have any above average defenders at PF or backup center.

[Rerisen]

Wait a minute the Bulls love Waiters but were scared of Lance Stephenson? Utterly bizarre.

Considering Lance is actually a proven positive performer with efficient offense and playmaking and Waiters is all potential, but right now hindered by poor shot selection, an over sized ego, and attitude problem where he couldn't get along with the team's best player and thought it should be 'his team' instead.

According to a source close to Waiters, he "wants out" of Cleveland and "prefers to go to Philly because he thinks he'd be the best player on the team. That's his mindset."

So he wanted to go to Philly, a team that stunk with no prospects for winning anytime soon because he would be the best player...

[Concept Coop]

news flash guys the Bulls went out and spent over 12 mil, all our money on Taj s position.

But what does it really mean? They invested in Mirotic before Taj looked like a potential starting option. They were going to sign him regardless.

As for Pau--he was a very team friendly deal. I don't take that as the team going out of their way to replace Taj; rather, liked what Pau could offer at the price. They had clearly been in contact with someone from Pau's camp for sometime--we were Pau's #1, and, due to cost, he seemed to be our #2 (Melo). I fully expect Pau to replace Taj in the starting lineup, and get more minutes in the playoffs. But, again, what does that really say about the FO's view of Taj, especially considering his fair contract?

[Mech Engineer]

Wait a minute the Bulls love Waiters but were scared of Lance Stephenson? Utterly bizarre.

Considering Lance is actually a proven positive performer with efficient offense and playmaking and Waiters is all potential, but right now hindered by poor shot selection, an over sized ego, and attitude problem where he couldn't get along with the team's best player and thought it should be 'his team' instead.

I agree. It seems like a plan to make Cleveland give up more assets. And, Lance would have come cheaper in terms of assets and has proved that he can play well in the playoffs. Waiters was part of a horrible team and had bad attitude on top of it. By the time Waiters realizes his role, Derrick might be 30 years old.

This is so ridiculous that it must be one of Gar Forman's BS projects to lead Cleveland astray in their eagerness to do whatever LeBron wants.

[panthermark]

Dallas won with only one "top end talent" and pretty good depth.

I know this sound worse than how I mean it (because it is over the web), but....are you making that up?

Dallas indeed had one star, but they used one of the shortest rotations in recent history in the finals.

It was literally a 7 man rotation.

Dirk - 40.4
Kidd - 37.4
Chandler - 37.3
Marion - 35.8
Terry - 32.6
Barea - 21.4
Stevenon - 17.2

That is basically it....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... inals.html

And in the Western Conference finals:

Dirk Nowitzki - 40.5
Jason Kidd - 36.7
Shawn Marion: 33.5
Jason Terry: 33
Tyson Chandler: 31.8
DeShawn Stevenson: 20.8
Jose Barea: 16.9
Peja Stojakovic: 16.3
Brendan Haywood: 14.9

You are almost making my point for me. They used 9 guys (and Peja sucked), with their top players still getting heavy minutes. How does that help Chicago? What guys are you gonig to play for 17 minutes that are going to help us? The best players are "usually" the starters...hence they start.
Pulling our starters (who are NOT top end players) at 30 minutes so their less skilled back-ups can get 18 minutes instead of 11 minutes MAKES NO SENSE. Dallas is als a bit of an odd duck. Stevenson was the starter, but basically for defense only...kind like Thabo. We need top end talent FIRST.

Even a 9 man rotation does not work for us withthe depth trade. Mirotic would not play, and one of the wings will get squeezed out (I'm assuming Butler would play +36).

[Southpaw]

It's awesome when my source breaks a story days before Stein. Philadelphia and Chicago are the two possible teams in a 3 way and both want Waiters. Problem with Philly is they aren't willing to give up picks in a deal.

Ralph - Is Chicago trying to acquire Love or just be the 3rd team?

Both. The Bulls either want Love or make sure Cleveland gives up as much as possible.

Minny IMO wants Gibson and Wiggins which is why I think Cleveland and Love is more likely.

The Bulls would swap Gibson for Waiters and Thompson in a heart beat. Also willing to take on Martin and sending out others, picks to make it work. Cleveland knows Bennett sucks and is trying to push him instead

Thanks for the info Ralph, hope you're feeling better.

I like both scenarios for the bulls. I'd obviously love to have Love but a Gibson + filler (MDJ?) for Waiters, Thompson and Martin is a plus deal for us. Martin and Thompson can lessen the impact of losing Taj and MDJ while Waiters becomes an X factor.

[Betta Bulleavit]

The beloved Taj Gibson is a career 9pts, 6rebs, 15per and 51% ts. So looking at the stats you put above, thanks btw, made my work easier. Yes I sit back and laugh at what people expect for Taj..

news flash guys the Bulls went out and spent over 12 mil, all our money on Taj s position.

About that news flash...

Where is the $12M coming from? I'm guessing Gasol is going to play a lot of center...and from what you said earlier...he (Gasol) was supposed to come with Melo. Not to mention the fact that Taj was in on signing Melo.

I do wonder if the issue with Real Madrid forced Chicago's hand? (I wonder if they really wanted to wait another year to sign Mitoric?) That would have made far more sense.

In this particular situation, I'm not really sure that it matters where the money came from. The fact of the matter is that the Bulls spent almost every cent of what they had to upgrade a position (F/C) that Taj figured to play a role in. This, despite the fact that everyone knows how badly they needed a second creator on the wing. Does this mean that the Bulls don't like Taj? Of course not. However, it does lend credence to the idea that they feel like Taj is the most tradeable/replaceable piece on the roster. And if he wasn't that before free agency, he almost certainly is now. I think that Ralph's point is that the Bulls might like the idea of being able to turn Taj into another serviceable big that wont create as much of a log jam up front all while acquiring that second creator that we all seem to feel like the Bulls should be going after.

[Ice the knees]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To0JIyG9UC0[/youtube]

Not sure how people don't like this guy. He didn't miss one shot in this video!!!

First I've really checked Waiters out I am embarrassed to say. Now it's a Youtube clip so I obviously cannot comment on his BBIQ or attitude or anything like that. But from that video it's easy to get an idea what kind of player Waiters is...He looks to be an aggressive north to south guard that likes to lose his defender in traffic...screens, stop and go on the PnR, and just blaze by guys 1 on 1. Reminds me a little of Tyreke, a player I have always liked for the Bulls.

And I get that players like Reke and Waiters don't have the most aesthetically pleasing games. I think we all agree players like Nash, Paul, Curry, Dirk who play the game in a more geometrical way and have crisp jumpers are much more palatable.

But guys like Reke and Waiters, while not efficient and often reckless, are always looking to get to the rim. Those of you who have played know that aggressive players that look to attack always require defensive attention (especially in the NBA when guys are finishing above the rim) and it's tiresome.

Sure you know you can out think them, and strong defensive teams will expose them, but at the same time you HAVE to guard them. A dunk is a dunk. Strong coaching will put guys like that in a position to succeed. Thibs will take some of the thinking of the the way for Waiters and give him opportunities to take advantage of guys.

Waiters, I can guarantee you, is a tough cover. He's going to occupy the other team's 2 guard when he's in there and he's going to keep defense just as honest as our shooters.

Also, there is a slight bias here when comparing Taj and Waiters...but that's not something that can be changed

[TheStig]

So to summarize:

1. I want out of Minnesota.
2. i want out of Minnesota before my contract with them is up.
3. I only want to go to a team with a chance at a championship.
4. I see only 3 teams I am interested in. GSW, Bulls, Cavs
5. But I won't sign an extension with any of them. I want them to give up their most prized future assets, and then I'll decide next season if I still want to play for them. Even if I do still want to play for them, I will leverage free agency to get the biggest contract available, and if they don;t give in to my demands i am gone.

The more i see this farce unfold, the less interested I am. I say run away as fast as you can from this guy. If you can be a 3rd party in a trade that sends him elsewhere and allows you to get the wing you need...go for it.

This guy is a total egomaniac.

He won't sign an extension this summer because next summer he is eligible for 30% of the cap instead of 25%. Why lose 5% right off the bat. I'm sure he will give strong assurances to whoever he gets traded too.

Exactly. "I want out of my contract. I want to pick the team I go to. I want all the risk to be with everyone else involved and all the reward to be with me. I won't take a dime less than I would get if I actually HONORED my contract". Screw him.

How does he want out of his contract? He said that he was opting out next year and that if they want to get value they should trade him. He didn't publicly demand a trade. He quietly went to the FO and told him his plans for the future. Minny has the option to keep him this year and him walking next year. The ball is in their court. He isn't forcing anything. Nothing from Love indicates he won't be in camp and ready to play this year for the Wolves. He is living up to his deal.