Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Concept Coop]

To be fair, striving to be and wanting to be the best player should be every basketball players mentality. I think it's a little harsh to shed a negative light on that alone.

He wants to go to a bad team to be the best player on said team. That is very different than wanting to be the best and living your life accordingly--playing, studying, practicing, etc.

My point was that we don't know he isn't doing those things.

That's fine, but it's wasn't the point made. The point was that he wants to go to a bad team so he can be the best player on his team. I don't think that's a good sign.

[Ice the knees]

Taj makes more than Mirotic. Why would we be obligated to play a guy making 6.5 over a guy making 8?

Why would the Bulls be obligated to play a player they've been waiting to bring over for 3 years? You know this guy would have been a top 10 pick this year...And paying him 6.5m to me says a lot more than paying Taj 8m...Also, I think it's important to remember that the Bulls really are looking to move Taj

You brought up the money, so I assumed that's what you meant.

As for the Bulls looking to move Taj--I don't think we know that. They are interested in moving him in a couple potential deals. I don't think that means they're looking to move him in general.

Yes, 6.5m is a lot of money to give to a player you don't plan on playing.

Taj at 8m is from a different Bulls team, which is why I think he's the odd man out

[NecessaryEvil]

But he's still the 4th big on this squad. Not the 4th best, just the 4th big. Noah and Pau are starting and Niko is getting his minutes at that salary.

Taj makes more than Mirotic. Why would we be obligated to play a guy making 6.5 over a guy making 8?

Younger, higher upside and the future of the team perhaps? Because we all know Taj isn't going to be that.

[Rerisen]

My hunch would be that Waiters would be the starter and Martin becomes the spark off the bench. More like a CJ Watson type of player...a utility offensive player

My hunch also is that you would absolutely hate that

Whoever wins the job should play in such a situation, but right now Martin gives more of what we need, considering Jimmy protects him on D.

Waiters is another guy we'd be hoping on takes a big step to fill the role, and we'd just be adding him to already 3 hopefuls in Snell, Butler and McDermott that we are already hoping to win the dice roll with.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Does anyone mind stating what the latest rumor is? bulls willing to trade taj and want waiters and Thompson in return? I can't keep up.

[panthermark]

This is the job of the FO to research a player. A selfish player is different from a player who wants to be great. There is a reason why guys like Rudy Gay, Josh Smith are ridiculed. LeBron wants to be great but also sometimes doesn't care who gets the last shot. Waiters was a perfect addition a two years back to see how he fits on a team which was not going to contend.

It is a very risky move at this phase of the Bulls to get someone like him by losing assets on top of it. He is not going to be happy being a 15 minute contributor nor is he talented enough that the Bulls can let him learn through his mistakes. He is going to be a negative impact player for the team.

That is BY FAR my biggest concern. I've defended Waiters quite a bit, trying to show his splits and how he has gotten better.

BUT....with that "depth" trade, it simply isn't a good plan.
As a "contending" team...we are not in a position to let him "see" if he can be a top option. Plus, the "depth trade" brings in Kevin Martin, a much better pure shooter....and with Kirk, Brooks, Snell, Butler, and McD all on the roster as well....he could be looking at a minutes crunch at at best, 24 minutes a game.

This is a guy who wants to start and will be looking for a pay day in two years.

For this team, it is almost "too much" depth.

Brooks won't see a minute. Snell won't see a minute, and unless TT sucks, Mitoric will barely see the court. McD is in a minutes cruch behind Butler, and Waiters is in a minutes crunch with Martin.

Hopefully the FO would have a consolidation trade lined up...which would be ironic.

[Bandit King]

Why people still messing around with the ideal we can get both Martin and Waiters. Ralph mentioned as an ideal not as reality. People still thinking its even remotely possible.

Waiters would never play cheerleader to Martin or vice versa. You would have to get rid of one of them even if the impossible trade was possible.

[panthermark]

Why people still messing around with the ideal we can get both Martin and Waiters. Ralph mentioned as an ideal not as reality. People still thinking its even remotely possible.

Waiters would never play cheerleader to Martin or vice versa. You would have to get rid of one of them even if the impossible trade was possible.

I think because Philly does not want Martin (unless picks come) according to Ralph, while we were OK taking Martin AND giving picks (yikes!).

I do agree, getting both seems like a log jam at SG. One would have to go.

[Wont PerDont]

Why people still messing around with the ideal we can get both Martin and Waiters. Ralph mentioned as an ideal not as reality. People still thinking its even remotely possible.

Waiters would never play cheerleader to Martin or vice versa. You would have to get rid of one of them even if the impossible trade was possible.

I think because Philly does not want Martin (unless picks come) according to Ralph, while we were OK taking Martin AND giving picks (yikes!).

I do agree, getting both seems like a log jam at SG. One would have to go.

Let's just make the deal with Minny for Martin and be done with it. Stay in the mix for Love, but outside of acquiring him I think our best team going forward is keeping Taj and adding Martin for MDJ + Snell, etc. if that's legitimately on the table. And I gotta think it is if Minny is looking to salary dump Martin on Philly. I personally think Mirotic and McDermott are going to share the 3 for much of the minutes this season anyway, so I think Taj being excess is overstated.

Rose/Brooks/Hinrich
Martin/Jimmy
McD/Jimmy/Mirotic
Gasol/Taj/Mirotic
Noah/Gasol/Taj

SUCH a versatile squad! different lineups for EVERY situation and everybody gets decent minutes. Consolidate as necessary at the deadline or next offseason.

[EastBayFJ]

The rumour of Minny wanting Thad Young is interesting - Sixers are also a good dumping ground for unwanted contracts

Having a White Chocolate guard like Rubio with athletes like Young and Lavine is interesting. A more mobile big like Gorgui Dieng would work better with that core than a plodder like Pekovic.

What the Wolves would then need is a highly efficient scoring wing who isn't a bad athlete

If I'm the Wolves I'd seriously consider McDermott, Gibson and Dunleavy for Love and Budinger- but with Dunleavy and our 2015 1st round pick going to Philadelphia with Shabazz Mohammed and Luc Richard Mbah Moute with cash considerations also going the Wolves way

I would also try and follow up a Eric Bledsoe sign and trade , where the Suns would also need to include Miles Plumlee by dangling Nikola Pekovic and Kevin Martin

BULLS

Noah
Love
Marion
Butler
Rose

Gasol
Mirotic
Budinger
Snell
Hinrich

Bairstow
Brooks


PHILADELPHIA

Noel
Saric
Dunleavy
Richardson
MCW

Vanardo
Moultrie
Mbah Moute
Wroten
Maynor

Embid ( IL )
Williams

Ultimately Philly trot out a starting 5 of

Embid
Noel
Saric
2015 Lottery Pick
MCW

With a boat load of cap space - not bad

WOLVES

Plumlee
Gibson
McDermott
Bledsoe
Rubio

Dieng
Young
Brewer
Lavine

Pretty high octane core with great defensive potential and some great scoring options in McDermott and Bledsoe

SUNS

Pekovic
Morris
Tucker
Dragic
Thomas

6th : Martin

Len
Morris
Green
Goodwin

Tolliver
Randolph

With Pek locked in at $12M , Martin at $7M , Dragic at $8M per and Isiah Thomas locked in at decent money and young talent in the Morris twins , Len and Goodwin - and their hustler / glue guy in Tucker they have good structure to add picks and manage payroll very well while still being a very competitive team

[fleet]

FWIW I dont believe the Bulls are trying to get a players like Waiters for Gibson. I believe they would shop Taj, just not for this kind of return.They wouldn't even risk much money without giving up assets for Lance. Hard to believe they would dump an asset like Taj and 1st rounders for the chance that Waiters can fight people in practice, or take on salary like Martin. I'm not buying.

EDIT: The Bulls are in a strong position. From their POV, they arent going to trade Gibson for deals that dont fit their team profile. They can do fine as is.

[Jayme96]

If you're getting Love and keeping Noah and Gasol, it makes more sense to trade Mirotic than McDermott.

[kingkirk]

I don’t really have an opinion on the whole Waiters thing (one worth arguing over), for several reasons:

1. I have no idea what trade we’re talking about, and I would be surprised if everyone who is discussing this topic is talking about the same trade e.g. is it Martin/Waiters/TT for Taj/MDJ, is it a different iteration?

2. I don’t think it will happen so I won’t be wasting energy on debating it endlessly


That said, there is clear up side to Waiters over any other player that has been linked to us, be it by report or trades on this board.

I am ‘meh’ on Dion Waiters. He is at the cross roads of his career where he can be humbled, work hard and make it as a pro, or continue down the self inflated path and be a worthy addition to a team like SAC or DET where he would fit right in with their ‘culture’.

It’s his choice, whatever team he ends up on next season.

That said, if you ask a lot of Cavs fan about their team last season, they will say that Irving was just as bad, if not worse with his hero ball and selfish play in comparison to Waiters, who actually ran the offense better for them.

I am not pro Waiters at this point, so please don’t respond to me with any Lance Stephenson crap. I don’t want to hear it, but I think the comments on Waiters in this thread, whilst some critiques have merit, others have been overly harsh.

[Rerisen]

Why people still messing around with the ideal we can get both Martin and Waiters. Ralph mentioned as an ideal not as reality. People still thinking its even remotely possible.

Waiters would never play cheerleader to Martin or vice versa. You would have to get rid of one of them even if the impossible trade was possible.

I think because Philly does not want Martin (unless picks come) according to Ralph, while we were OK taking Martin AND giving picks (yikes!).

I do agree, getting both seems like a log jam at SG. One would have to go.

Dunleavy would be going, this would allow Butler to play more 3 exclusively with McDermott.

Probably pushes Snell out of the rotation unless he has made a big leap. (Let's admit, he was mostly bad last year).

Having 2 scoring options added, both somewhat questionable, is better than one imo.

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

[NecessaryEvil]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

[AKfanatic]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

and Butler was missing games before Deng left, then taking over the iron man minutes Deng left. We don't have the mobile, high energy, athletic replacement for Taj on the roster at the moment. Taj has been a huge part of our defense going back to the bench mob. He, like Noah, not only controls the paint on the defensive end, but also switches onto wings, recovers on 3 point shooters, and blows up pick and rolls.

If you keep on losing what it is that supplies your strength, you eventually lose your strength.

[Chi town]

I don’t really have an opinion on the whole Waiters thing (one worth arguing over), for several reasons:

1. I have no idea what trade we’re talking about, and I would be surprised if everyone who is discussing this topic is talking about the same trade e.g. is it Martin/Waiters/TT for Taj/MDJ, is it a different iteration?

2. I don’t think it will happen so I won’t be wasting energy on debating it endlessly


That said, there is clear up side to Waiters over any other player that has been linked to us, be it by report or trades on this board.

I am ‘meh’ on Dion Waiters. He is at the cross roads of his career where he can be humbled, work hard and make it as a pro, or continue down the self inflated path and be a worthy addition to a team like SAC or DET where he would fit right in with their ‘culture’.

It’s his choice, whatever team he ends up on next season.

That said, if you ask a lot of Cavs fan about their team last season, they will say that Irving was just as bad, if not worse with his hero ball and selfish play in comparison to Waiters, who actually ran the offense better for them.

I am not pro Waiters at this point, so please don’t respond to me with any Lance Stephenson crap. I don’t want to hear it, but I think the comments on Waiters in this thread, whilst some critiques have merit, others have been overly harsh.

I tend to agree that Kyrie is at fault. Reports were that Kyrie made rules he himself didn't abide by. I'm meh on Waiters too.

I prrsianlly have Dragic as my best option.

[NecessaryEvil]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

and Butler was missing games before Deng left, then taking over the iron man minutes Deng left. We don't have the mobile, high energy, athletic replacement for Taj on the roster at the moment. Taj has been a huge part of our defense going back to the bench mob. He, like Noah, not only controls the paint on the defensive end, but also switches onto wings, recovers on 3 point shooters, and blows up pick and rolls.

If you keep on losing what it is that supplies your strength, you eventually lose your strength.

Great points but...

If Taj is moved, I trust that the front office of the Chicago Bulls KNOWS what they are doing.

[SteelerSpartan]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

I disagree. Those mins on MDJ and Butler are not sustainable

Both Noah and Gasol need another defensive guy behind them given their injury history

I dont like very many of the Love trades Ive seen around here...lateral moves at best that would require more retooling

And Any Taj/MDJ/Snell/+picks trade with MIN and Clev has to have Dieng coming back or I dont do it

Really Im tired of the FA and trade talks.....just give me a decent defensive back up for Jimmy and Im ready to roll with what we got this year

[Rerisen]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

Butler's ability to guard 2/3 helped alleviate Deng's loss on defense. But as soon as we ran into a competent wing tandem in Beal/Ariza, not having Deng hurt big time, as we got eviscerated.

The Bulls in past years have put out a few bad defensive lineups, and once you go past a certain point they indeed become irredeemable and fall apart, even with Thibs as the coach. Generally 3 poor defenders is the breaking point. Which we would be doing much more so without Taj.

Pau Gasol was a bad defender last year, if we believe in the narrative he 'just wasn't trying' and he actually recovers, it will probably only be to average at best.