Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Payt10]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

Butler's ability to guard 2/3 helped alleviate Deng's loss on defense. But as soon as we ran into a competent wing tandem in Beal/Ariza, not having Deng hurt big time, as we got eviscerated.

The Bulls in past years have put out a few bad defensive lineups, and once you go past a certain point they indeed become irredeemable and fall apart, even with Thibs as the coach. Generally 3 poor defenders is the breaking point. Which we would be doing much more so without Taj.

Pau Gasol was a bad defender last year, if we believe in the narrative he 'just wasn't trying' and he actually recovers, it will probably only be to average at best.

Tired legs had more to do with the Bulls down fall last year than Deng's absence. They ran out of gas.

[SpinninHouse]

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

Butler's ability to guard 2/3 helped alleviate Deng's loss on defense. But as soon as we ran into a competent wing tandem in Beal/Ariza, not having Deng hurt big time, as we got eviscerated.

The Bulls in past years have put out a few bad defensive lineups, and once you go past a certain point they indeed become irredeemable and fall apart, even with Thibs as the coach. Generally 3 poor defenders is the breaking point. Which we would be doing much more so without Taj.

Pau Gasol was a bad defender last year, if we believe in the narrative he 'just wasn't trying' and he actually recovers, it will probably only be to average at best.

Tired legs had more to do with the Bulls down fall last year than Deng's absence. They ran out of gas.

We also ran out of talent.


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[NecessaryEvil]

If we are trading Taj we are sacrificing defense for real, past the point it can just be covered with more minutes elsewhere like with Omer and Deng. Like our team rank is likely to drop. So for that tradeoff I wouldn't want to put all our eggs just in the basket of grey matter in Dion Waiters head.

And yet, Deng played more but we didn't miss a beat when he left....the glue guy, the key to the defense, the etc. blah blah

The Bulls aren't going to suffer tremendously over the loss of a back-up PF that's unlikely to have the same closing role as in years past.

Taj Gibson is overrated heavily on this board.

Butler's ability to guard 2/3 helped alleviate Deng's loss on defense. But as soon as we ran into a competent wing tandem in Beal/Ariza, not having Deng hurt big time, as we got eviscerated.

I didn't even get past the rest of the post. Bulls would of gotten stomped with our without Luol Deng. We got out TALENTED.

[DanTown8587]

Let's say its Gibson/Dunleavy for Waiters, Martin, and Thompson. Bulls roster would be

Rose/Hinrich/Brooks
Martin/Snell/Waiters
Butler/McDermott
Gasol/Mirotic/Thompson
Noah

That's a legit NBA 12. Now of course there are some risks there. But as a Bulls fan that understands the Bulls can't get a legit superstar right now, this is a great second option. I don't know how all those guys will react. Will Martin be impactful or just stat sheet? Will Waiters ever put it together? Will Thompson progress to a rebounding/defensive 4? How much can Mirotic do and how quickly?

But you know what, there is a potential there to see a legit roster. Plus, if you hit on a couple of those moves, you can then consolidate down the road. And at least, the roster has better balance. Of course you lose the defensive PF in Gibson but you are taking on two wings (Martin and Waiters) and a fairly young big man (Thompson). Also, that deal provides insurance in case Jimmy Butler wants an excessive amount of money in FA next year (a legit possibility considering the FA class + available cap space).

I mean people always talk about the Pistons, Mavericks, etc titles and you don't remember the guys that they acquired and then won with? Detroit won with Billups (a former top 3 pick who was twice traded on three teams in his first four years), Ben Wallace (a throw in with the Grant Hill S&T). Dallas won with Tyson Chandler (a big man who couldn't clearly beat out Nazr Mohammed and Theo Ratliff. Peja was on his way out of basketball. JJ Barea was a Puerto Rican with little regard. You have to find under valued guys in this league and give them a situation where you can get more out of them than others have.

If you guys want to trade Taj Gibson at his peak trade value, today is that day. If you feel that this deal isn't good that's fine, just realize that Taj is unlikely to build his trade value playing 20-25 minutes and playing with two other PF on the roster. And please provide another plan other than "well let's see if McDermott is ready" because counting on a rookie drafted #11 to be a top flight wing scoring option on a playoff contender is something that has never happened in the history of the league.

[panthermark]

^I understand that...but for a "contender" in its win now window, Taj is the kind of player (over Thomas and Mitoric) you want in the rotation.

I'm still meh on the depth trade because you bump half of your depth out of the rotation, and I don't know how Waiters would react to such restricted minutes.

I think I prefer something like MDJ and Snell for Martin (and I think that is actually giving up too much).

I also hope we can sign Marion and someone like Nazr for cheap.

Edit:
I guess if it came down to no moves at all, or the "depth" trade...I would probably take it, hold my nose, and hope for the best.

[Costa78]

Let's say its Gibson/Dunleavy for Waiters, Martin, and Thompson. Bulls roster would be

Rose/Hinrich/Brooks
Martin/Snell/Waiters
Butler/McDermott
Gasol/Mirotic/Thompson
Noah

That's a legit NBA 12. Now of course there are some risks there. But as a Bulls fan that understands the Bulls can't get a legit superstar right now, this is a great second option. I don't know how all those guys will react. Will Martin be impactful or just stat sheet? Will Waiters ever put it together? Will Thompson progress to a rebounding/defensive 4? How much can Mirotic do and how quickly?

But you know what, there is a potential there to see a legit roster. Plus, if you hit on a couple of those moves, you can then consolidate down the road. And at least, the roster has better balance. Of course you lose the defensive PF in Gibson but you are taking on two wings (Martin and Waiters) and a fairly young big man (Thompson). Also, that deal provides insurance in case Jimmy Butler wants an excessive amount of money in FA next year (a legit possibility considering the FA class + available cap space).

I mean people always talk about the Pistons, Mavericks, etc titles and you don't remember the guys that they acquired and then won with? Detroit won with Billups (a former top 3 pick who was twice traded on three teams in his first four years), Ben Wallace (a throw in with the Grant Hill S&T). Dallas won with Tyson Chandler (a big man who couldn't clearly beat out Nazr Mohammed and Theo Ratliff. Peja was on his way out of basketball. JJ Barea was a Puerto Rican with little regard. You have to find under valued guys in this league and give them a situation where you can get more out of them than others have.

If you guys want to trade Taj Gibson at his peak trade value, today is that day. If you feel that this deal isn't good that's fine, just realize that Taj is unlikely to build his trade value playing 20-25 minutes and playing with two other PF on the roster. And please provide another plan other than "well let's see if McDermott is ready" because counting on a rookie drafted #11 to be a top flight wing scoring option on a playoff contender is something that has never happened in the history of the league.

I've been against trading Taj, but I gotta admit the depth that this trade would add to our SG, not to mention an Athletic, young PF in TT....I would be all over this deal if I were GarPax.

[Chi town]

^I understand that...but for a "contender" in its win now window, Taj is the kind of player (over Thomas and Mitoric) you want in the rotation.

I'm still meh on the depth trade because you bump half of your depth out of the rotation, and I don't know how Waiters would react to such restricted minutes.

I think I prefer something like MDJ and Snell for Martin (and I think that is actually giving up too much).

I also hope we can sign Marion and someone like Nazr for cheap.

Edit:
I guess if it came down to no moves at all, or the "depth" trade...I would probably take it, hold my nose, and hope for the best.

Snell is too much for Martin when he is being shopped as a contract.

[DanTown8587]

^I understand that...but for a "contender" in its win now window, Taj is the kind of player (over Thomas and Mitoric) you want in the rotation.

I'm still meh on the depth trade because you bump half of your depth out of the rotation, and I don't know how Waiters would react to such restricted minutes.

I think I prefer something like MDJ and Snell for Martin (and I think that is actually giving up too much).

I also hope we can sign Marion and someone like Nazr for cheap.

Edit:
I guess if it came down to no moves at all, or the "depth" trade...I would probably take it, hold my nose, and hope for the best.

You can't be "win now" with a wing rotation of McDermott, Butler, Dunleavy, Snell, Hinrich. Also, it's much more win now to trade Taj for Martin as Martin is the lesser player of the two but fills a much larger need on this roster than Taj does. As for the trade, it does a lot of things

1. Allows Jimmy to play the 3, his natural position
2. It lessens the pressure on McDermott to be a scorer and play heavy minutes in year 1
3. Gives the Bulls younger options (Waiters is 22, Thompson 23)
4. Gives the Bulls a backup plan in case they don't like what Jimmy wants to get paid

I tend to think that trading a starting PF and a starting wing for a good wing scorer and two young players who have shown flashes is a good deal for Chicago. It's not some "everyone run to the phone and get Silver on the line" but most trades rarely are.

[AkronsFinest91]

Dion doesn't sound like a guy who feels he's going to be traded

http://www.csnnw.com/nba/waiters-mainta ... t-two-cavs

LAS VEGAS – Dion Waiters is enormously confident in his abilities to produce on the basketball court. It’s one of the main reasons why he’s one of the best young scorers in this league.

That’s why his response to a Twitter question asking if he would accept a role of coming off the bench -- following the Cavaliers drafting No.1 overall pick Andrew Wiggins and the signing LeBron James -- should surprise no one.

Waiters replied an emphatically, “Nooooooooo.”

On Monday, following Day 1 of TEAM USA training camp, when CSNNW.com followed up on the matter, Waiters didn’t back down from his stance to be inserted into the starting lineup come next season.

“I want to start and I believe that I should at the two,” Waiters told CSNNW.com.

During Summer League, Wiggins, if retained, says he views himself as a shooting guard rather than a three, which is a smart thing to say considering the position that new guy plays. So, if the roster currently constructed is the roster three months from now, Wiggins and Waiters will be battling it out.

Never one to mince words, Waiters elaborated on why he felt it was necessary to let his feelings become known via Twitter.

“I just say how I feel,” he said. “I’m going to do whatever is best for the team, of course, but at the end of the day, I’m a man and I’m confident in myself. I’ve always been a guy that gives it right to you. I’ve never been a guy that plays that political stuff. I was brought up that way. I’m straightforward. I give my honest opinion. I’m not going to sit here and hide. They asked a question and I tell you.”

This isn’t to be taken the wrong way. Waiters isn’t demanding to be a starter. He believes he’s the right person for the job. There’s a difference, there. Nothing malicious intended and his new head coach doesn’t see anything wrong, either.

“I think that Dion is a guy that believes in his abilities and really, really wants to be a great player at the highest level,” Cavaliers head coach David Blatt said. “There’s nothing wrong with that. I think that’s a positive that he desires to be an elite guy and really wants to win at the same time. That’s what’s important to me.”

Waiters just isn’t talking about starting, he’s putting in the work. He says he has lost 10-12 pounds since the last game of the season thanks to a new diet he’s dedicated to. The results are a lighter, more athletic 6-4 guard.

The addition of James is going to make life easier for Waiters and others. That’s exactly why he wants to make sure he’s in the best possible shape to reap the benefits of playing off of a first ballot future Hall-of-Famer.

“Expectations are going to be huge next season,” Waiters said. “Soldout arenas every night. We got to get used to that and enjoy the moment. We can’t get too high or too low. I think it’s a great opportunity for everybody. LeBron is arguably the best player in the game so I have to make sure I bring it on a nightly. I’m ready.”

[bennjuiced34]

Of course he sounds like he's staying, well, because right now he is. Maybe he's a guy who doesn't pay attention to trade rumors or maybe he has no idea he's even possibly on the block.

He's a Cav right now so obviously he's going to answer questions assuming he's going to be on the team all year long.

[kingkirk]

I have a tough time believing that Tristan Thompson will be leaving the Cavs.

Assuming they land Love, we give Minny Taj and receive Martin, Waiters & TT, there is no credible post defender on that Cleveland roster, not to mention no real big worthy of minutes outside of Love & AV.

That, and he is chummy with Lebron.

TT won't be dealt imo. They need him, even with Love there.

[Synciere]

For the life of me I don't understand why the Bulls would give up their depth for Love. If you're the Wolves, do you do this deal without Mirotic and McD involved??


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[Rerisen]

For the life of me I don't understand why the Bulls would give up their depth for Love. If you're the Wolves, do you do this deal without Mirotic and McD involved??

I find it interesting how people use the word depth.

If the Bulls traded for Love, and presumably Martin as well seems likely, the 'depth' of their starting 5 would become immeasurably better, like top 3 in the league better.

Right now our starting depth is bad, because our wings have no proven high quality, only average and unproven players.

If we traded for Love and Kmart, we would lose some depth in the 2nd unit, yes, but gain depth in the more important starting 5. And even then the bench would still not be terrible, but at least average considering it would have the best big backup in the game maybe in Gasol and a fairly decent backup PG in Hinrich. Brooks and Snell will probably be serviceable as well. So no one would be absolutely terrible.

[cubd8]

I have a tough time believing that Tristan Thompson will be leaving the Cavs.

Assuming they land Love, we give Minny Taj and receive Martin, Waiters & TT, there is no credible post defender on that Cleveland roster, not to mention no real big worthy of minutes outside of Love & AV.

That, and he is chummy with Lebron.

TT won't be dealt imo. They need him, even with Love there.

I don't think keeping Thompson would be the stumbling block in the end. I think right now, Cleveland, is trying to make a deal with Wiggins and Bennett, and nobody wants Bennett. I think they will bend if it comes down to it, but right now, it's a poker game. I doubt their best offer has come forward. Outside of Chicago, who is involved with this? With Love unwilling to commit long-term, Minnesota is probably not getting the offers they thought they would be gettting.

[AKfanatic]

For the life of me I don't understand why the Bulls would give up their depth for Love. If you're the Wolves, do you do this deal without Mirotic and McD involved??

I find it interesting how people use the word depth.

If the Bulls traded for Love, and presumably Martin as well seems likely, the 'depth' of their starting 5 would become immeasurably better, like top 3 in the league better.

Right now our starting depth is bad, because our wings have no proven high quality, only average and unproven players.

If we traded for Love and Kmart, we would lose some depth in the 2nd unit, yes, but gain depth in the more important starting 5. And even then the bench would still not be terrible, but at least average considering it would have the best big backup in the game maybe in Gasol and a fairly decent backup PG in Hinrich. Brooks and Snell will probably be serviceable as well. So no one would be absolutely terrible.

This is where I'm a bit confused. If we got a return of Love and Martin we would have the upgrade at Love, but Martin, at least in my eyes, doesn't add "starting depth". He's also average. Given we'd probably lose Butler and Mirotic and/or McDermott, our depth at the wing remains as shaky as before. Of course there are other iterations of the trade that add a guy like Waiters according to "insiders" speculation (wake me when Carmelo signs) but even then you are starting Martin(or waiters), Dunleavy, and Love with Noah and Rose...is that really some great championship caliber team given that those same rumors state Minnesota wants both Taj and Butler to go with one of the M&M rookies (as well as picks and other)?

There seems to be a lot of opinion about improved talent in the starting five spoken as fact, it's all opinion until proven differently. I'm skeptical.

[Chi town]

I remain very skeptical of CHI getting any player from CLE and vice versa. Just don't see why they would help each other in any trade.

Cavs don't want to play against a movitvated Waiters. I can see where a third team like PHI comes in and CLE gets love and MIN gets Wiggins and Thad Young and Sixers get Waiters.

[Wont PerDont]

For the life of me I don't understand why the Bulls would give up their depth for Love. If you're the Wolves, do you do this deal without Mirotic and McD involved??

I find it interesting how people use the word depth.

If the Bulls traded for Love, and presumably Martin as well seems likely, the 'depth' of their starting 5 would become immeasurably better, like top 3 in the league better.

Right now our starting depth is bad, because our wings have no proven high quality, only average and unproven players.

If we traded for Love and Kmart, we would lose some depth in the 2nd unit, yes, but gain depth in the more important starting 5. And even then the bench would still not be terrible, but at least average considering it would have the best big backup in the game maybe in Gasol and a fairly decent backup PG in Hinrich. Brooks and Snell will probably be serviceable as well. So no one would be absolutely terrible.

I think that would be more a case of how you are using the term. Most people refer to depth as the players on your roster beyond the starting 5.

[BrooklynBulls]

I have a tough time believing that Tristan Thompson will be leaving the Cavs.

Assuming they land Love, we give Minny Taj and receive Martin, Waiters & TT, there is no credible post defender on that Cleveland roster, not to mention no real big worthy of minutes outside of Love & AV.

That, and he is chummy with Lebron.

TT won't be dealt imo. They need him, even with Love there.

If you look at the statistics, Thompson is the opposite of a post defender. He allowed 59% at the rim last season. He is a reasonable pick and roll defender, but he gets posted up very easily and does not alter or block many shots.

Even if they get Love, they will find themselves in DESPERATE need of a big who defends. Because Varejao, for all his rebounding and hustle, is closer to Love defensively than Noah. And Thompson has the reputation because god, he's not a very good offensive player so he MUST be a good defender, right? No. He's just a meh player overall.

[panthermark]

This is where I'm a bit confused. If we got a return of Love and Martin we would have the upgrade at Love, but Martin, at least in my eyes, doesn't add "starting depth". He's also average. Given we'd probably lose Butler and Mirotic and/or McDermott, our depth at the wing remains as shaky as before. Of course there are other iterations of the trade that add a guy like Waiters according to "insiders" speculation (wake me when Carmelo signs) but even then you are starting Martin(or waiters), Dunleavy, and Love with Noah and Rose...is that really some great championship caliber team given that those same rumors state Minnesota wants both Taj and Butler to go with one of the M&M rookies (as well as picks and other)?

There seems to be a lot of opinion about improved talent in the starting five spoken as fact, it's all opinion until proven differently. I'm skeptical.

Seems fairly simple.
Martin fits a need. He scored 19.1 ppg last year as an (over-matched) 2nd option. He is a career 17.9 ppg scorerand a career 38.5% shooter from deep. He also has a career TS% of .591. (Although some of that was inflated with his rip through move that is no longer allowed).
Martin as a 3rd option would be outstanding.
I'm also not sure if we would lose Butler because he has to be paid next year. One of the original (and verified) rumors were McD, Mirotic, and Taj. We also know they are looking to dump Martin as well (so include MDJ).
From a "balance" standpoint, that might be the best starting 5 in the NBA. It would be nice if they were all superstart two-way players, but we are not getting that.
What you do have is an efficient offense with a couple of plus defenders (bit of an understatement as one is the DPOY and the other is All NBA defense). Marion is still out there. A splayer like him (plus Snell and Kirk) can cover your wings for the limited amount of time Butler and/or Martin are not on the floor.

And nother nice thing is that with the exception of injury, special play, or blow-out, Two of your three bigs (Lvoe, Noah, Gasol) will always be on the court. It would be the best big man rotation in the league that few teams could match up with. It "almost" makes you forget that from a scoring standpoint, that Rose/Martin backcourt is one of the best in the league as well.

Did I mention that those 3 big men have Spurs like passing ability?

[TruthSerum]

I remain very skeptical of CHI getting any player from CLE and vice versa. Just don't see why they would help each other in any trade.

Cavs don't want to play against a movitvated Waiters. I can see where a third team like PHI comes in and CLE gets love and MIN gets Wiggins and Thad Young and Sixers get Waiters.

Fans get confused and try to conflate rumors and interests when they're in fact, separate actions. Just like all that nonsense of Gasol and Melo together when anyone with common sense knew Melo represented Plan A and Gasol was Plan B.

We want Love, King James also wants Love. When it goes down, we will not be helping our biggest foe in the Central and possibly the East get their man. Period.