Butler vs Singler

[Cowology]

Butler will come off the bench, but I would like to see him play the Michael Curry role; provide veteran leadership at the start of the game but play limited (16-18) minutes.

Singler may be more productive and can take the Corliss share of the minutes, but who else on this team is going to provide any sort of calming influence or direction? Jennings? Drummond? Singler? Smith? Monroe? KCP? Meeks?

Don't underestimate the value of leadership with a young team.

[Piston Pete]

I expect Butler to start, but split minutes with Singler.

24/24 split would not surprise me at all.

And if one gets hot on any particular night, he could earn extra time and likely play the entire 4th quarter to close out that night's game.

[Q00]

Butler will come off the bench, but I would like to see him play the Michael Curry role; provide veteran leadership at the start of the game but play limited (16-18) minutes.

Singler may be more productive and can take the Corliss share of the minutes, but who else on this team is going to provide any sort of calming influence or direction? Jennings? Drummond? Singler? Smith? Monroe? KCP? Meeks?

Don't underestimate the value of leadership with a young team.

This is why Butler is likely to start in my opinion. His leadership and defense is more valuable to the starting lineup than anything Singler provides, and Butler is even the better shooter. So unless he's just physically incapable of starting, I think its an easy decision to go with Butler. Being that he played 25 mpg last year, I don't see any reason to believe he isn't physically capable.

Plus I don't think he turned down contenders to come to a lotto team just to be a cheerleader on the bench anyways.

Also it shouldn't be forgotten how awful Singler is defensively. If Monroe is resigned and Jennings starts along with Singler, that could be even worse of a defense than last year.

Jennings/Singler/Monroe...I think 2 of those 3 are going to have to come off the bench if we want to be a good defense. Ideally, I'd bring all 3 off the bench in favor of Augustin/Butler/Smith.

[epheisey]

This is why Butler is likely to start in my opinion. His leadership and defense is more valuable to the starting lineup than anything Singler provides, and Butler is even the better shooter. So unless he's just physically incapable of starting, I think its an easy decision to go with Butler.

Plus I don't think he turned down contenders to come to a lotto team just to be a cheerleader on the bench.

Also it shouldn't be forgotten how awful Singler is defensively. If Monroe is resigned and Jennings starts along with Singler, that could be even worse of a defense than last year.

Jennings/Singler/Monroe...I think 2 of those 3 are going to have to come off the bench if we want to be a good defense. Ideally, I'd bring all 3 off the bench in favor of Augustin/Butler/Smith.

I doubt any contender was offering him 4.5m/yr. Was he actually offered a deal by another team?

[Q00]

This is why Butler is likely to start in my opinion. His leadership and defense is more valuable to the starting lineup than anything Singler provides, and Butler is even the better shooter. So unless he's just physically incapable of starting, I think its an easy decision to go with Butler.

Plus I don't think he turned down contenders to come to a lotto team just to be a cheerleader on the bench.

Also it shouldn't be forgotten how awful Singler is defensively. If Monroe is resigned and Jennings starts along with Singler, that could be even worse of a defense than last year.

Jennings/Singler/Monroe...I think 2 of those 3 are going to have to come off the bench if we want to be a good defense. Ideally, I'd bring all 3 off the bench in favor of Augustin/Butler/Smith.

I doubt any contender was offering him 4.5m/yr. Was he actually offered a deal by another team?

OKC and LAC both wanted him.

[aad]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

[Finn McCool]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

[Q00]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

Did you watch OKC during the playoffs at all?

I watched almost every one of their playoff games and had a complete opposite reaction to Butler. All I saw was a guy going out of his way to cheer his teammates and being a great leader on and off the court every game. In fact that was what stood out the most. There was absolutely nothing to indicate he was affecting their chemistry negatively. Nothing but positive signs in that regard. So much so that Durant was practically begging him to resign.

Chemistry aside, since when is not shooting a lot a bad thing for a bench player? I mean, better to not shoot enough than too much, right? He was role player. Some nights role players get a bunch of shots, others they don't get any. You can't say a guy is failure because he happened to only take 1 shot in 1 game.

[epheisey]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

Watch KD's MVP speech and then tell me how he dissolved team chemistry...

[Finn McCool]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

Did you watch OKC during the playoffs at all?

I watched almost every one of their playoff games and had a complete opposite reaction to Butler. All I saw was a guy going out of his way to cheer his teammates and being a great leader on and off the court every game. In fact that was what stood out the most. There was absolutely nothing to indicate he was affecting their chemistry negatively. Nothing but positive signs in that regard. So much so that Durant was practically begging him to resign.

Chemistry aside, since when is not shooting a lot a bad thing for a bench player? I mean, better to not shoot enough than too much, right? He was role player. Some nights role players get a bunch of shots, others they don't get any. You can't say a guy is failure because he happened to only take 1 shot in 1 game.

Brother Pistons fan, you seem to have taken a lot of what I stated out of context.

I watched the OKC series... perhaps not as intensely as you.

My sentiments about Butler may not be accurate, as they are a prediction. I think it would be a whole lot easier to be a 'team guy' on a team that has enough talent to be in the Conference Finals.... don't you? However, he is now on a team that has years of dysfunction/disharmony and 6 seasons of not seeing .500%. That's a completely different animal.

Can you explain to me why he wouldn't have gone back to OKC with Durant begging??? Most aged vets would take a significant pay cut to remain with a contender. Please state any facts you might have. Conjecture really does nothing to prevail in a debate.

I used the last game as an example of how he doesn't care and became disengaged with a game that meant very little. It is not the basis of why I said the pick up was a huge fail on SVG. Allow me to clarify, I thought we needed to upgrade the SF forward position with a capable starter. All I have read about in several forums and several threads is how at his age he shouldn't be given starter minutes... or just flat out should come off the bench. It should have been clear that an upgrade at the position should log quality starter minutes... not splitting them down the midlle with Singler.

Over my brief time on this forum, I have come to like your posts more often than not... and more often than others. It should come to no surprise that evntually we wuld not see things in the same light. Let's try to not let this little difference of opinion ruin the respect we might have for each other. We can open up this discussion around the Allstar break... where we'll have a better understanding of how Caron's presence has affected the team... positively or negatively.

Peace.

[Finn McCool]

Butler had a bad playoffs but hes far from washed up he can still play people forgetting he dropped 30 on us last season and he dropped 38 on philly

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

Watch KD's MVP speech and then tell me how he dissolved team chemistry...

I never stated that he dissolved team chemistry in OKC... but congratulations on getting me to watch that speech which consisted of KD thanking Caron for writing some words on a piece of paper. If I declare you a winner of our short debate, will you tell us all how old you are?

[epheisey]

I am on the opposite side of things concerning Butler. I'll bet he is more likely to end up being an intregal part of what dissolves team chemistry. He doesn't care. BTW, if you look at all of the games where he scored 15 pts. or more last season, you'd notice they come against the bottom 10 defensive teams and/or lottery teams. Did you see his last game of the season? 18 mins on the floor and took 1 shot. Huge FAIL for SVG picking up Caron. IMHO.

Watch KD's MVP speech and then tell me how he dissolved team chemistry...

I never stated that he dissolved team chemistry in OKC... but congratulations on getting me to watch that speech which consisted of KD thanking Caron for writing some words on a piece of paper. If I declare you a winner of our short debate, will you tell us all how old you are?

Ok. So he's never had a history of destroying team chemistry, but he's going to come to the Pistons, in the twilight years of his career, to fill a known role of veteran leader, and NOW he's going to become harmful to team chemistry? There is no logic in him becoming a problem.

He wasn't brought in to score. He wasn't brought in to be a volume shooter. He's here to provide veteran guidance with a goal to turn around the culture in the locker room, which hopefully permeates throughout the whole organization.

The point I was making from the KD speech was that he was only on the team for a very short period of time, and he clearly made a huge impact on the second best player in the NBA. If he can influence a player of that caliber, he shouldn't have a problem having a positive influence on our young roster.

I'm 24. Don't see how that applies. Asking how old someone is simply sounds childish in itself. But now it's out there.

[Finn McCool]

Watch KD's MVP speech and then tell me how he dissolved team chemistry...

I never stated that he dissolved team chemistry in OKC... but congratulations on getting me to watch that speech which consisted of KD thanking Caron for writing some words on a piece of paper. If I declare you a winner of our short debate, will you tell us all how old you are?

Ok. So he's never had a history of destroying team chemistry, but he's going to come to the Pistons, in the twilight years of his career, to fill a known role of veteran leader, and NOW he's going to become harmful to team chemistry? There is no logic in him becoming a problem.

He wasn't brought in to score. He wasn't brought in to be a volume shooter. He's here to provide veteran guidance with a goal to turn around the culture in the locker room, which hopefully permeates throughout the whole organization.

The point I was making from the KD speech was that he was only on the team for a very short period of time, and he clearly made a huge impact on the second best player in the NBA. If he can influence a player of that caliber, he shouldn't have a problem having a positive influence on our young roster.

I'm 24. Don't see how that applies. Asking how old someone is simply sounds childish in itself. But now it's out there.

I wanted to establish what age of a person I was debating with. Your posts remind me of my 22 year old son. And yes, it was a slight, back-handed insult for bringing up the KD speech as some sort of irrefutable retort.

In KD's speech it seemed as if he said something positive about every player on the team as to how they influenced him. I didn't finish the video. I don't think there was any clear indication that Butler had some rare/special influence.

You continue to state things as some kind of fact. Unless you have priviledged information on how SVG veiws Butler's future, could you at least refrain from stating things as an absolute? I think we can all agree that Butler is expected to have a role in leadership.

If Caron's only benefit is to be a symbol of leadership, then my assessment is only more resounding. He needs to exemplify a leadership on the floor. Making correct decisions and being the guy that can hit important shots.

As far as Butler's history... he is on his 8th team of his career. He did not last with the Bucks... even though one would think that being close to home to play his final seasons on another team that NEEDED leadership would be ideal.

It raises my level of suspicion about him why the Thunder didn't retain him. I stated that I don't think he cares. Most players play the game to win... to be champions. They even take huge pay cuts to remain with a contender just for the chance. Is it that he doesn't care about winning? If so, that would be huge strike against him. Is he so full of character that he couldn't wait to find a place that was truly dysfunctional to make a difference? I digress.

Like I said above in another post. We can re-open a discussion about Butler's influence around the Allstar break.

Peace.