The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[toucansma]

Ask yourself, "why is this coming out of the northwest and not locally?

Good question.

The declining salaries is a non factor to me. That is strictly the ability of the Suns to put more money on this years cap to make future years less so they can remain competitive. They did this with Tucker and Thomas. 4/48 is 48 whether its 4 x 12 or 10.5, 11.5, 12.5, 13.5 or declining like 13.5, 12.5 11.5, 10.5. Granted, in year , he might think he is underpaid but in year 1,he is overpaid. The contract set up is easily explainable with a real agent.

Bledsoe and Paul need to understand its not the Suns, its not the RFA - it is the market. And until otherwise, the Suns KNEW the most they would pay for Bledsoe is 4/63. To think that 5/84 was ever on the able is asinine and stupid. This wasn't Carmelo who could get offers from LA or the Bulls to make the Knicks go 5/122.

Bledsoe was NEVER going to get more than 4/63 and that should have been his starting point.

I think explore the trade market. Its obvious Bledsoe will go where he gets paid.

No you do not explore the trade market - it is not the Suns job. If Bledsoe's agent wants him elsewhere and can work out a S&T that would be acceptable to the Suns so be it. Agents do this all the time. My guess is that he has tried and like his negotiating tactics, has come up with zero.

This "irreparable relationship" reeks of desperation and affirms that his agent has no clue what he is doing. it sounds like he is two years old and is threatening to take his ball and bat home.

[JDLAW]

I will believe this when it is reported by someone other than Dave King. Has Coro ever reported this? I do not think any one has leaked out actual numbers from the last negotiation.

I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say lately, but this insistence on Coro being the only legit source, the suggestion that accurate information can't come from outside local media - these sorts of opinions aren't worthy of the strong language that characterizes your prose.

Cosmo - it is not just Coro. I have been following this locally, and all media reports from the time of the trade. I have yet to see anyone other than King report Bledsoe asked for a max in 2013 negotiations. It might be true, but being the skeptic that I am, i need to see more than a blogger named Dave King, whose"reporting" is that of mixed opinion and fact and whose track record is a little spotty.

[Cutter]

I will believe this when it is reported by someone other than Dave King. Has Coro ever reported this? I do not think any one has leaked out actual numbers from the last negotiation.

But even if this were true, it only goes to show just how unrealistic his agent is.

I think Bright Side gets a bad rap around here. They've come a long way in the past few years. Dave is a credentialed member of the media and I really only trust Coro & Gambo for Suns information ahead of him. Regarding Bledsoe's contract demands, I'm not sure it's his agent. I think it's Eric. He has the ultimate belief in himself. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but at some point he has to face reality and either sign for what the market is giving him or not. Just my 2 cents.

If he really has the ultimate belief in himself as you say, he'll just take the QO.

Perfect. Bledsoe has a clear choice before him.

[carey]

If he really has the ultimate belief in himself as you say, he'll just take the QO.

I think he's considering it. There's a difference though in belief in your game and belief in your body which has already had 3 injuries to the same knee. I have a feeling this thing doesn't get resolved until September sometime.

[SideSwipe]

Not true, ever ask anyone if Lebron was worth his contract? Durant? Even Love? There is a problem in the league with guys capping out. When a team can have Lebron at the same price as Gordon Hayward (basically) there is an issue.

This comes from over-regulation of salaries. If you have to regulate (debatable), I think to make this right, the league should set a standard amount of $$ that any franchise can spend altogether (Operations, Marketing, player salaries- everything) and see what teams can do within that context. Maybe something like $100 mil.

All of this other business with capping out would really be diminished because you could pay Lebron the $70mil he is worth, and Hayward would still be at $15. Teams would have to constrain their other spending though, based on the marquee player they want. Cap space would mean significantly more, teams would have to look at their internal costs, and couldn't rely on external deals (tv, League-money) to use as operating capital for the team.

From there bonuses should be based on the wins the team generates, with extra significant shares for playoff wins and conference championships- currently pay for performance is way too limited in this league, and that's why there are so many yoke contracts and players considered busts.

Tanking would also go out the window. The better your team does, even if they don't make the playoffs, the better players, coaches, staff and everybody will do financially. Players could hold shares and be part owners in the league they are a part of, and get a dividend from those shares of league profits above and beyond their regular pay. The league does better, their dividend goes up, everybody wins. It seems it would be a better alignment of interests, vs. owner/ player relationship currently. This would also help minimize the big-market vs small market issue somewhat except for endorsement deals. This would also provide better long-term prospects for players after their playing careers are done. Dividends means payouts in perpetuity so long as the shares are held and not sold.

Rants don't come in paragraph form.....

But seriously, you need to relax....

[JDLAW]

One other comment for the author of this gem. His team - the Blazers had a near identical impasse with Batum a couple of years ago. It was just as nasty, but Batum's agent was able to secure an offer sheet, which the Blazers matched as they said they would all along.

I do not know where he comes up with the judgmental crap he spews, but he of all people should know the relationship is not irreparable once the contract has been signed.

[BobbieL]

No you do not explore the trade market - it is not the Suns job. If Bledsoe's agent wants him elsewhere and can work out a S&T that would be acceptable to the Suns so be it. Agents do this all the time. My guess is that he has tried and like his negotiating tactics, has come up with zero.

I would agree that Paul has contacted teams, presented Bledsoe, the teams are interested until the numbers come up. I am sure many teams would be interested in Bledsoe at what the Suns are offering - but not at 4/63 or 5/84 type numbers

Bledsoe cannot get 5/84 from any other team but the Suns. The most he can get on a S&T is 4/63.

Oh, that's for clarification. I thought the Suns could S&T him for their max.

Well anyway, even at 4/63, I don't think teams are interested. Bledsoe/Paul - need to lower the numbers to 4/56 and go from there.

[BobbieL]

If he really has the ultimate belief in himself as you say, he'll just take the QO.

I think he's considering it. There's a difference though in belief in your game and belief in your body which has already had 3 injuries to the same knee. I have a feeling this thing doesn't get resolved until September sometime.

Hmm, one year 3.7 meaning you will really have to play it at the top of your game and be healthy

or

with a little negotiation, can probably get 4 years, 50m if willing to structure it to the Suns cap liking

decisions, decisions..

his choice though

[bwgood77]

Not true, ever ask anyone if Lebron was worth his contract? Durant? Even Love? There is a problem in the league with guys capping out. When a team can have Lebron at the same price as Gordon Hayward (basically) there is an issue.

This comes from over-regulation of salaries. If you have to regulate (debatable), I think to make this right, the league should set a standard amount of $$ that any franchise can spend altogether (Operations, Marketing, player salaries- everything) and see what teams can do within that context. Maybe something like $100 mil.

All of this other business with capping out would really be diminished because you could pay Lebron the $70mil he is worth, and Hayward would still be at $15. Teams would have to constrain their other spending though, based on the marquee player they want. Cap space would mean significantly more, teams would have to look at their internal costs, and couldn't rely on external deals (tv, League-money) to use as operating capital for the team.

From there bonuses should be based on the wins the team generates, with extra significant shares for playoff wins and conference championships- currently pay for performance is way too limited in this league, and that's why there are so many yoke contracts and players considered busts.

Tanking would also go out the window. The better your team does, even if they don't make the playoffs, the better players, coaches, staff and everybody will do financially. Players could hold shares and be part owners in the league they are a part of, and get a dividend from those shares of league profits above and beyond their regular pay. The league does better, their dividend goes up, everybody wins. It seems it would be a better alignment of interests, vs. owner/ player relationship currently. This would also help minimize the big-market vs small market issue somewhat except for endorsement deals. This would also provide better long-term prospects for players after their playing careers are done. Dividends means payouts in perpetuity so long as the shares are held and not sold.

I was thinking the same thing. I was reading that and stopped, and thought it was a good post, so kept going, but then thought "man, if this was split into 4 paragraphs I bet twice as many people would read it."

[Sunsdeuce]

One other comment for the author of this gem. His team - the Blazers had a near identical impasse with Batum a couple of years ago. It was just as nasty, but Batum's agent was able to secure an offer sheet, which the Blazers matched as they said they would all along.

I do not know where he comes up with the judgmental crap he spews, but he of all people should know the relationship is not irreparable once the contract has been signed.

Your right. But one thing that bothers me is his complete lack of interest in the community that supported him all year.


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[bwgood77]

One other comment for the author of this gem. His team - the Blazers had a near identical impasse with Batum a couple of years ago. It was just as nasty, but Batum's agent was able to secure an offer sheet, which the Blazers matched as they said they would all along.

I do not know where he comes up with the judgmental crap he spews, but he of all people should know the relationship is not irreparable once the contract has been signed.

That was resolved a bit quicker though. Batum signed the offer sheet on July 15th. Pekovic is probably a better example. If this was a regular agent I wouldn't give this holdout much thought because I would assume they would eventually come to an agreement, even if it was in September. But with Rich Paul, I just don't know. He's never negotiated one contract, and they really seem to believe he is worth the max. They don't really have any leverage though, so I can't see what they can do at this point. But I agree with what you mentioned...this likely would be water under the bridge, especially with the fans, once the season is underway. Bledsoe may hold some resentment, especially if Dragic ends up getting significantly more, but he can get over it or get traded.

For a good example of what fans were thinking of a similar holdout, I found this thread from last year at this time on the TWolves board talking about the Pekovic negotiation....viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1263027&start=344

Also, I asked this earlier, and I don't think anyone answered. Do you know if a FA has ever let the QO expire and continue to holdout/negotiate into the season? This would seem the only way a player might have leverage, because then you are impacting the team's season and results. NFL players use this tactic quite a bit.

[bigfoot]

Your post is not angry. The action proposed comes off that way and comes off a bullying when the other side is boxed in. I have been in many negotiations and under these circumstances, this tactic is viewed as confrontational and bullying and is used when the sides are angry.

Like it or not, if Bledsoe is to remain with the Suns, he needs to be brought back into the fold (team and community) and needs to feel as though he has accomplished something with this failed (from his part) negotiation.

I agree. This needs to be a win-win situation for both the Suns and Bledsoe. Employees need to feel valued and employers need great employees. Both sides need to step away from ridiculous demands and meet somewhere in the middle.

In what way is the Suns side a ridiculous demand? $12 million a year isn't ridiculous on the low side whatsoever.

First Kyle Lowery ... the baseline is three years older than Bledsoe. Second Lowery played in a notoriously weaker conference than Bledsoe. His numbers this year are inflated by playing in the Leastern conference. Second the max Bledsoe can get this year is $14.7M ... the Suns could split they difference. Third we saw that the Suns were nearly a 55 win team with Bledsoe on the court ... Lowery's team won the same number as the Suns 48 in a weaker conference. Are the Suns not giving him an opt out in the fourth year? We don't know anything about this? It simple ... both side need to get together and meet in the middle. We will not be overpaying because the the TV rights are going to be rebid in two years. The cap space will be going way up.

[Cutter]

I don't think Bledsoe playing one healthy year automatically makes him a max cat. He still has a significant injury history to over come. As a matter of fact, there is a good chance he never overcomes the stigma of having so many knee injuries, regardless of how many 82 games years he plays.

[SunsFanSSOL]

Coro just posted the article on AZCentral, although he didn't confirm or deny whether it was true (he doesn't know). Anyways, if Bledsoe signs the QO, is he able to be traded?

[JDLAW]

Coro just posted the article on AZCentral, although he didn't confirm or deny whether it was true (he doesn't know). Anyways, if Bledsoe signs the QO, is he able to be traded?

It does not say anything new. If he signs a QO he can be traded, but Bledsoe obtains a right to approve any trade.

[letsgosuns]

The local guys really have no inside information regarding the Suns anymore. Ryan McDonough keeps everything behind closed doors. It seems like all the moves he makes come from out of nowhere.

[Sunsdeuce]

Coro just posted the article on AZCentral, although he didn't confirm or deny whether it was true (he doesn't know). Anyways, if Bledsoe signs the QO, is he able to be traded?

It does not say anything new. If he signs a QO he can be traded, but Bledsoe obtains a right to approve any trade.

Yeah, I was going to post the article but it's just information everyone already new.


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[Sunsdeuce]

The local guys really have no inside information regarding the Suns anymore. Ryan McDonough keeps everything behind closed doors. It seems like all the moves he makes come from out of nowhere.

Gambo would have the best info but he is focused right now on football (thank you baby Jesus for bringing football back).


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[bwgood77]

Brightside (I think) posted an article a few days ago showing that if Bledsoe took the QO, and then got a max deal after that, that the most his 4 year total could be is something like $52, which is only $4 more than we are already offering and that is with a huge risk of injury AND no guarantee of even getting the max if you are healthy.

But if we were willing to accept a 52 counteroffer, taking the QO is basically ridiculously stupid because you really never make back your money in any circumstance.

[bwgood77]

The local guys really have no inside information regarding the Suns anymore. Ryan McDonough keeps everything behind closed doors. It seems like all the moves he makes come from out of nowhere.

Gambo would have the best info but he is focused right now on football (thank you baby Jesus for bringing football back).

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I'm so ready for football. I always get amped for preseason, and then it starts and I have a big letdown and think damn I need some REAL football, than I get more eager for it to start. The Cards should be really deep and better everywhere except at the damn LB position. If they would have kept Dansby and Washington wouldn't keep messing up, I think they'd have a really good chance of winning the division, even though it probably has arguably the two best teams in the league in it.