OT - Coach Draft Big Board

[HotelVitale]

2. Doc
With a ring on his finger and consistently building contenders with different teams he has cemented himself in everybody's top 5. He just happens to be number 2 on my own list. I like the toughness, competitiveness, and passion he brings with a killer defense always on the court at all times.

I don't know about this. I imagine Doc is a good enough coach, but none of his teams have ever overachieved. When he had weak talent the teams performed weakly, when he had elite talent the teams looked elite. The season before the Allen/KG/Pierce/Rondo teams, he coached the Celtics through the worst two months in NBA history. And he had some decent talent too--Rondo, Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, in addition to half a season of Pierce--more than this year's post-break 76ers who had one real NBA player (Thad Young), a decent rookie (MCW) and a bunch of d-leaguers. The year before that, his Pierce-led teams was pretty bad as well. Then he only squeezed one title out of a team with three MVP candidates and a solid supporting cast--that't not bad but it's not impressive, since we would've talked about that team as a huge failure if it didn't win at least one title. As those teams declined, he didn't do anything to make them perform beyond their station or anything, despite the fact that KG, Allen, and Pierce were all sort of sub-coaches beneath him. And this year he only took a Clippers team--that was considered a top-4 title contender--to a 6-game second round. They weren't better than the Thunder, but Rivers didn't push them over the top or anything. They performed as well as they should have, no better or worse.

He never has clever offensive systems, and he just uses the relatively simple defense that Thibs invented. This year, the Clips' D didn't substantially improve over the year before. I'm not hating on the guy--I bet he's really really good at personality management and solid at basic coaching stuff--I just don't see him as an elite coach because he hasn't pulled off the sort of overachieving results that guys like Thibs, Carlise, or Pop have.

[epheisey]

2. Doc
With a ring on his finger and consistently building contenders with different teams he has cemented himself in everybody's top 5. He just happens to be number 2 on my own list. I like the toughness, competitiveness, and passion he brings with a killer defense always on the court at all times.

I don't know about this. I imagine Doc is a good enough coach, but none of his teams have ever overachieved. When he had weak talent the teams performed weakly, when he had elite talent the teams looked elite. The season before the Allen/KG/Pierce/Rondo teams, he coached the Celtics through the worst two months in NBA history. And he had some decent talent too--Rondo, Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, in addition to half a season of Pierce--more than this year's post-break 76ers who had one real NBA player (Thad Young), a decent rookie (MCW) and a bunch of d-leaguers. The year before that, his Pierce-led teams was pretty bad as well. Then he only squeezed one title out of a team with three MVP candidates and a solid supporting cast--that't not bad but it's not impressive, since we would've talked about that team as a huge failure if it didn't win at least one title. As those teams declined, he didn't do anything to make them perform beyond their station or anything, despite the fact that KG, Allen, and Pierce were all sort of sub-coaches beneath him. And this year he only took a Clippers team--that was considered a top-4 title contender--to a 6-game second round. They weren't better than the Thunder, but Rivers didn't push them over the top or anything. They performed as well as they should have, no better or worse.

He never has clever offensive systems, and he just uses the relatively simple defense that Thibs invented. This year, the Clips' D didn't substantially improve over the year before. I'm not hating on the guy--I bet he's really really good at personality management and solid at basic coaching stuff--I just don't see him as an elite coach because he hasn't pulled off the sort of overachieving results that guys like Thibs, Carlise, or Pop have.

Seems like Rivers is very good at managing, not so much at coaching. That's a valuable ability, if matched with the proper assistants. Perhaps a whole coaching staff draft would be an appropriate topic if it weren't so in depth....

[Entourage27]

2. Doc
With a ring on his finger and consistently building contenders with different teams he has cemented himself in everybody's top 5. He just happens to be number 2 on my own list. I like the toughness, competitiveness, and passion he brings with a killer defense always on the court at all times.

I don't know about this. I imagine Doc is a good enough coach, but none of his teams have ever overachieved. When he had weak talent the teams performed weakly, when he had elite talent the teams looked elite. The season before the Allen/KG/Pierce/Rondo teams, he coached the Celtics through the worst two months in NBA history. And he had some decent talent too--Rondo, Al Jefferson, Tony Allen, Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, in addition to half a season of Pierce--more than this year's post-break 76ers who had one real NBA player (Thad Young), a decent rookie (MCW) and a bunch of d-leaguers. The year before that, his Pierce-led teams was pretty bad as well. Then he only squeezed one title out of a team with three MVP candidates and a solid supporting cast--that't not bad but it's not impressive, since we would've talked about that team as a huge failure if it didn't win at least one title. As those teams declined, he didn't do anything to make them perform beyond their station or anything, despite the fact that KG, Allen, and Pierce were all sort of sub-coaches beneath him. And this year he only took a Clippers team--that was considered a top-4 title contender--to a 6-game second round. They weren't better than the Thunder, but Rivers didn't push them over the top or anything. They performed as well as they should have, no better or worse.

He never has clever offensive systems, and he just uses the relatively simple defense that Thibs invented. This year, the Clips' D didn't substantially improve over the year before. I'm not hating on the guy--I bet he's really really good at personality management and solid at basic coaching stuff--I just don't see him as an elite coach because he hasn't pulled off the sort of overachieving results that guys like Thibs, Carlise, or Pop have.

I said he should be cemented in everybody's top 5 but I just so happened to see him at 2. You named all of the negatives about this guy but brought none of the positive to weigh it all out. We haven't seen a coach like Rivers since Chuck Daly. The way he has the ride or die atmosphere in his locker rooms is about the same of Daly's. Those Boston Celtics back in '08 one of the greatest teams in our generation. Everyone gives the Heat an excuse on how that they lost because that was the 1st year they all played together, but when the Celtics do it, they are only meeting expectations. That Celtics team was built defense first and giving players some control of the offense and that was similer to the Daly Pistons and made the Bad Boys the Bad Boys. It's those elements that I feel Doc has to his coaching game that signifies his Daly comparison and being a top coach in the NBA.

The Clippers were also going through adversity with the whole Donald Sterling saga distracting the guys to get what's really more important done. Doc even said in an interview after one of the games against the Warriors that the situation affected them. While all that going on he still managed a Clippers team in one of the toughest Western conference we've seen in years go from a 1st round exit team all the way to the second round team going 6 games with the MVP Kevin Durant and company. The western conference is a dog fight to get out of every year as all teams are practically considered contenders. Rivers might have had probelms in the past but now that he is a more experienced coach he knows what to do in certain situations.

[HotelVitale]

I said he should be cemented in everybody's top 5 but I just so happened to see him at 2. You named all of the negatives about this guy but brought none of the positive to weigh it all out...

Not really, I just said that his teams have never overachieved. He never made a bad team mediocre, a mediocre team solid, a solid team great, etc. To my mind, that means he's not necessarily a top-5 coach--he might be great, but looking at his teams and records alone, he's just a guy that inherited some really good situations and didn't blow them. (Pretty much none of us see what he or other coaches do on a daily basis so we can't really judge how much a team's success or failure is due to them. Much harder to judge quality for coaches than players).

Everyone gives the Heat an excuse on how that they lost because that was the 1st year they all played together, but when the Celtics do it, they are only meeting expectations.

Not following you here: the Celtics only won one title, the Heat won two. And the Heat would've been lambasted by every media outlet in the country if the big three had only won one in their time together. You're giving Doc big credit for doing worse than Spoelstra overall, and that was my point: the Celtics were a great team so it's not at all surprising that they won one title. If they'd won three, then Doc gets a huge boost, but winning one with that roster to me just means that he's probably at least a pretty good coach. Doesn't make you a no-brainer top coach in the league.

he still managed a Clippers team in one of the toughest Western conference we've seen in years go from a 1st round exit team all the way to the second round team going 6 games with the MVP Kevin Durant and company. The western conference is a dog fight to get out of every year as all teams are practically considered contenders.

Still not following... He had a very very good team this year with two guys who finished in the top 7 for MVP and a strong supporting cast, and you're saying that reaching the second round was a great outcome? Again, I don't think Rivers is a bad coach or anything, but if a team that has the LAC's overall talent didn't make the second round it would be widely considered a giant failure. I don't think you get many extra accomplishment points for avoiding disaster.

I get that you like his personality and style and I don't begrudge that or anything. He's won a title and he always seems to get the respect of his players, and that's great. These lists are all subjective: I'm indifferent to his personality or style which leaves me with only his resume, and that evidence alone doesn't convince me he's elite. (Or rather it is only if you make excuses or arguments).