RealGM Top 100 List #13

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#81 » by Baller2014 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:42 am

magicmerl wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:When you go from being the primary option on a mediocre team to being the secondary offensive option on a deep team, it's hardly surprising that your efficiency goes up. That's the normal progression. It is a far cry from suggesting Kobe was somehow making Pau play better.

Now now, be fair. Pau's efficiency went up because he was playing with more talented teammates. Given that Kobe was Pau's most talented teammate, I think it's fair to credit Kobe with some of Pau's increased efficiency.


Playing next to Kobe helped take the pressure off Pau, I already said that. But the degree to which it helped has been totally distorted by GC Pan using only a 27 game sample that Pau never reached again, and comparing it to another small sample (that is also not consistent with regular Pau). Pau's TS% in the 2 years before he got to LA (in 06 and 07) was equal to Pau's TS% 2 years after he got to LA (in 2010), and only moderately lower than 2009, so it's obvious the 27 game sample is inappropriate to use.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#82 » by Melodabeast » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:02 am

People are doubting Bryant's defense. They seem to believe all those all-defensive team that are voted on by the coaches came from nowhere, which seems pretty silly. There's a reason he got that defensive rep in the first place. Quick hands, great foot-speed and lateral quickness, knows how to help and recover, fantastic defensive rebounding guard, great length..He has all the tools and he consistently used those tools where it counts the mos: the post-season. I've decided to track his defense in multiple playoff games/finals games where it really matters and where he consistently stepped up, so people can see why he was at least a good defender throughout his prime.


Game 5 2004 vs Spurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHbGDyTc2w

1st Quarter:
--11:30---good help defense. cuts off parker's penetration and force him to pass.

9:05---again, helps on parker's penetration, and strips him forcing him to lose the ball

7:18--duncan gets doubled, kobe cuts off his passing angle, which leads to duncan throwing a tough pass to the weakside. leads to turnover.

2:44--cuts off parker's drive, and quickly recovers to the corner shooter, and forces him to put the ball on the floor

1:38--deflection

2nd Quarter:
9:39 second--excellent defense by both shaq/bryant on a cutting duncan. kobe tips the defensive rebound to shaq.

2:36--tips deflected passed to teammate

3rd quarter:

9:24--great strip of the ball on duncan. forces turnover.

8:52--great strip on duncan by shaq, kobe recovers loose ball

8:23--picture perfect help and recovery. cuts off hedo's penetration,and quickly recovers to bowen forcing him to put the ball on the floor.

8:12--bowen sneaks behind him but bryant quickly recovers and contests. bowen turns it over.

4;46---manu gets the step on george but bryant quickly comes over to help and forces him to give it up.

1:51--contest on brown'st three.miss.

5.5 sec: parker blows by fisher, again,bryant does an excellent job helping and cutting him off.

4th quarter:

8:29--parker blows by fisher. bryant is quickly there to cut him off again.

5:26--hedo gets the step on geroge,but bryant gets a hand in his face and forces a tough shot.

3:27--again, parker penetrates, but both malone and bryant do a great job of cutting off his passing angle, which leads to shot-clock violation

10.4 sec: GREAT ball denial on ginobil.

5.4 sec; again, great ball denial on ginobli. that's two straight plays where he blows up the spurs play for a gino/duncan pick&roll with terrific ball denial.



This is a very good defensive game, especially in terms of team/help defense. I count 2 forced turnovers, a deflection, 4 defensive rebounds, consistently good help and recovery, and the opponent shot 1-5 on shots he contested. Only 2 defensive mistakes in 46 minutes.

2004 Lakers vs Pistons Game 3:
Spends all game chasing Rip Hamilton around and does a very good job imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXxinAr7G9s

8:28--recovers loose ball

3:23--gets through multiple picks, and does a great job contesting rip's shot.forces him into a tough double-pump jumper which he somehow makes.

40.6: again, gets around multiple picks set for rip, and causes a deflection.

33.1: quickly recovers onto wide open billups after near steal. possession ends in a shot-clock violation for detroit.

2nd Quarter:
10:26--Helps and quickly gets back to open Billups forcing him to put the ball on the floor. possession ends with ben wallace jumper...

3:31--great contest on rips shot. forces rip to adjust and pass, which leads to a near turnover

2:31--single-handedly stops the fast break of the pistons.GREAT deflection of rip's pass in transition. loose ball recovered by lakers, which leads to a a basket on the other hand.

38th second--great play. moves his feet to get in front of rip, and then uses his long arms to poke the ball away. leads to 2 on the other end.

15th second--again, rips attempts to drive. kobe uses his great foot speed to beat him to the spot. forces a charge call. this is the 3rd turnover forced by bryant in the first half alone.

rip scores 12 pts on 11 shots and has 4 turnovers in the first half.

3rd quarter:

10:49: chases rip through multiple picks and then has a good contest on his jumper

9:01: strips and steals the ball from rip.

6:15--terrific ball denial on hamilton. at this point rip is pretty much being completely shut out of the offense

2:46--helps on billups drive and quickly recovers to hamilton, who attempts to drive, but again bryant moves his feet and beats him to the spot.

4th quarter:

*lakers take bryant off rip in this quarter and put kareem rush on him. hamilton has his best quarter of the game and suddenly looks much more comfortable. blows completely by rush on 4-5 possesions, two for easy layups.for people who say man-to-man defense doesn't matter...watch how bad rip looks through 3 quarters with bryant on him compared to the 4th quarter with rush defending him. have no idea why phil switched*

*phil takes kareem rush out at the 1:09 mark.puts bryant back on him*


56 sec: rip gets the step but bryant recovers and forces a miss.

Overtime:

4-22: great contest on rahsheed wallace's missed jumper.

1:04: good help and then contest on hamilton's three

Overall, this is another very strong outing defensively. His primary assignment in Rip Hamilton goes 10-15 for 26 points and has 5 turnovers. Bryant ends up with 3 turnovers forced (2 steals, and a charge drawn), 2 deflections, 4 defensive rebounds and he spends almost the entire game chasing Rip around and holds him to 10-25 for 26 pts with 4 turnovers. What more do you want from the guy...


2001 NBA Finals Game 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I5DvTw15aE

*Spends almost the first half guarding and hounding and applying pressure on Aaron McKie, who won the 6th man of the year that season*

9:54--iverson shakes off fisher in transition with a great spin move
and goes up for the jumper but Bryant is immediately with a great contest. Iverson has to re-adjust in mid-air and passes it off.

6:00--great contest on mutombo's shot. mutombo blows the dunk

3:25--cuts off mckie's penetration with his lateral quickness,leads to turnover,recovers looseball

3:12--good team defense. shaq and fisher trap iverson, who swings it. mutombo dives to the rim, but bryant is there to cut off the pass, then sprints to run mckie off the three-point line.

7.3 seconds--iverson gets doubled. swings it to snow. bryant runs him off the 3-pt line and then then cuts off his drive.

2nd Quarter:

11:40--snow beats shaw off the dribble and goes up for layup but bryant rotates over from the weakside, jumps and contests. snow hits a ridiclous high-arching floater. great shot by snow. good help defense by bryant.

11:05--picture perfect rotations by the entire laker team including bryant. force a turnover. good ****.

7:55--horry goes over to trap iverson.bryant digs down and pick's up horry's man, then sprints to a open mckie and runs him off the 3-pt line. this is team excellant fundamental team defense.

4:12--switches on to iverson, moves his feet on the drive, then pokes the ball away out of bounds

2:36--helps on iverson penetration, then contest's iverson's tough jumper

1:00--gets in front of snow,moves his feet, and bothers him. snow dribbles it out of bounds. forced turnover.

27 sec--great ball denial on iverson, then a great contest on iverson's three later in the possession. leads to a fastbreak dunk

7 sec--terrific ball denial on iverson again. leads to a ugly possession by the sixers.

3rd quarter:

7:07--terrific block on aaron mckie's jumper

4:04--cuts off snow. pokes the ball away. deflection

1:07--cuts off snow, who goes up for the jumper. bryant jumps and blocks it. ball deflected to fisher.

4th quarter:

11:27--bryant picks up loose ball after a great defensive block by fox.


7:28--bryant comes over from the weakside and cuts off iverson's baseline penetration. iverson is forced to pass it off. leads to turnover.

6:46--bryant comes over and strips mutombo. recovers the ball. 2nd forced turnover of the game by bryant.

4:26--comes over and contests mutombo's hook shot

That's 2 steals, 2 blocks, several deflections, 2 forced turnovers overall, and 7 defensive rebounds. Another fantastic defensive outing.

2002 WCF Game 4 vs Kings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkJGUgb ... 255EF80098

*Bibby has been destroying Fisher all series, and continues to do so in the 1st half. He's wrecking havoc. Bryant switches on to him in the second half and completely shuts him down, and the Kings offense falls off a cliff*

Here's a article on the game: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/may/27 ... p-adande27
He shut off the spigot of Sacramento's offensive flow, point guard Mike Bibby, and reintroduced the Lakers to the concept of defense in the process.

"It started in practice Saturday, when he told Coach Phil Jackson that he was willing to take on the assignment of guarding Bibby. Something had to be done, because Bibby has been tearing through the Lakers the way Shawn Green took out the Milwaukee Brewer pitching staff. Jackson was reluctant.

"He said he didn't want to wear me out the entire game, but I reminded him that's what I did for this team two years ago, was chase little guards around," Bryant said. "I'd be more than willing to give myself up to benefit the team if that's what he wanted me to do.

"If that's what Phil wants me to do, I'm going to do it."

Finally, Jackson had no choice after Bibby continued to torch Derek Fisher and Lindsey Hunter in the first quarter of Game 4.

Bibby made five of his first six shots. He didn't rack up the assists, but his ability to get by the Laker guards wrecked the Laker defense and enabled his teammates to shoot open jumpers."

"Down by 24 points, Jackson finally put Bryant on Bibby in the second quarter."

But Bryant worked to deny Bibby the ball. He hustled to stay in front of him. He harassed him all over the court when Bibby dribbled.

After scoring 14 points in the first 17 minutes, Bibby had only seven the rest of the way. The Kings went from scoring 40 points in the first quarter to scoring 34 in the second half.

"You've got to really thank Kobe for that," Horry said. "He put some pressure on Bibby, the offensive flow kind of stalled. Kobe put a lot of pressure on Bibby and interrupted their groove."


*Bryant switches on to Bibby in the second half of Game 4 with the Lakers down 65-50*

*Bibby is coming off an amazing 1st half. 18 pts on 8/11 shooting*

11:30--bryant hounds bibby into help,bibby misses, bryant gets the defensive rebound 0-2

10:07--again, bryant all over bibby. forces him to give the ball up.

8:37--bryant and horry trap bibby. leads to turnover

8:15--bryant gets around multiple picks. sticks to bibby like glue. bibby forced to pass. at this point the kings offense looks totally discombulated.

8:00--good ball denial by bryant

6:25--bryant continues to be all over bibby. his length and athletism is clearly bothering him

4:25--again, bryant gets around multiple picks. bibby forced to settle for long two, which he misses.

4:10--bryant doubles webber and quickly recovers to bibbby, who is forced to pass to jackson on the wing.jackson throws up a airball.

3:24--bryant recovers loose ball

On the bench for the rest of the quarter. bibby goes 0-3 for 2 pts with Bryant defending him this quarter.

4th Quarter:
11:33--bryant gets around multiple off-ball picks set for jackson, then denies penetration. jackson forced to pass back out..

9:25--again, bryant gets through multiple picks set for jackson, then stops his drive.

7:20--double on webber and quick recovery to the shooters

4:00--good ball denial again

3:37--bryant pressures bibby all the way upcourt. cuts off penetration and again bibby is forced to pass to a covered divac on the wing.

3:00--bryant knocks the ball away from divac. forced turnover.

2:33--bryant pressures bibby. gets under back pick and denys the drive by bibby who is forced to again pass out to a covered webber with only seconds left on the clock. webber passes back to bibby, who shoots the jumper. GREAT contest by bryant and bibby shoots the airball. terrific defensive sequence by kobe.

1:54--bryant rotates after the double on webber by fisher. cut's off hedo's penetration and does a good job contesting hedo's tough jumper,which he somehow makes.



Bibby finished the 2nd half 1-5 for 3 points in the second half, with Bryant on him for the huge majority. Kings offense only scores 34 in the seond half after 65 in the 3rd.

This was another excellent defensive performance by Bryant.Not only with the on-ball/man-to-man defense on Bibby, but he also had 3 blocks, 2 steals, 4 defensive rebounds, and a forced turnover.


How anybody can watch these games and say he's not at least a *good defender* is beyond me.

I've included YT links if you want to check them out.

BTW, here another article about Bryant holding shutting down and holding Iverson scoreless for an entire half:
Kobe Bryant's defense didn't just neutralize Allen Iverson's offense, it completely shut it down.

Bryant held Iverson scoreless in the second half and scored his team's final six points Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their seventh straight win, 87-84 over the Philadelphia 76ers.



http://onlineathens.com/stories/022100/ ... 0029.shtml
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#83 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:15 pm

magicmerl wrote:
Spoiler:
penbeast0 wrote:Personally I lean to DRob, but can see the Malone arguments based on longevity.
This is my feeling too. David Robinson at his peak was basically better than Malone's peak, in the same way that Shaq peaked higher than Duncan but Duncan was consistently excellent for far longer. I went with Duncan then and I have to go with Mailman now for the same reason.

However, during Robinson's peak from 94-96, he put together staggering win share totals. But the kicker for me is, in his three best years, here's what happened to him in the playoffs:

Code: Select all

1994 playoff matchup (Karl would go on to lose to Hakeem in the conference finals)
Playr  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg GmSc
David .471 .411  8.4 24.0 15.5 17.4 1.1  4.6   9.6 29.0 104  107  15.1
Karl. .561 .482 10.3 22.7 17.3  7.7 2.1  1.2   7.1 33.3 118   97  22.7

1995 playoff matchup, both players crushed by Hakeem
Player  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg GmSc
Hakeem .606 .573  3.8 22.9 14.1 23.8 0.9  4.6  10.0 37.9 116  112  25.8
Karl.. .550 .471  8.5 34.4 20.3 16.9 1.8  0.9   9.3 33.0 114  118  23.0

Hakeem .590 .563  7.2 25.4 16.3 27.4 1.6  7.0  12.2 36.8 111  101  28.2
David. .553 .449 10.1 20.4 15.3 11.0 2.0  4.1  17.3 28.5 106  107  17.9

1996 playoffs (Karl loses to Jordan in the finals)
Playr  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg GmSc
Karl. .493 .447  8.7 21.1 15.1 23.2 2.0  1.8   7.9 34.8 108   97  17.9
David .526 .475 12.6 19.5 16.0 14.7 2.8  5.1  11.3 29.6 107  107  15.8


1994: Karl Malone beats David Robinson
1995: They both get beaten by Hakeem, although Karl makes a better show of it
1996: Karl Malone beats David Robinson

David has a far shorter career. And when he was objectively 'better' than Karl in the regular season, Malone still had the better of him in the playoffs. Karl directly outplayed David (at David's peak)in the playoffs when both 94 and 96, and indirectly in 95, by putting up a better showing vs Hakeem.

My vote is for Karl Malone.


That's pretty convincing. You may have changed my mind on that matchup.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#84 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:20 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I'm pretty skeptical of Moses, though I'll admit to the kind of uncertainty in methods here that comes often with players from the past. He got All-D on a defense that was absolutely torched by the league (another case of people overrated individual rebounds?), while clearly having a length problem, and as a scorer, well, if Barkley had joined the 76ers a bit sooner, wouldn't they have been better off with him playing the role that got the MVP during the '83 season?


So what you're saying is . . .

1) Moses lacks defense and length.

2) Charles Barkley would have been a better replacement.


I'm saying Barkley's better at the thing Moses is good at.


Better passer too, but appreciably worse at defense and leadership and defense in a big is particularly important.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#85 » by lorak » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:44 pm

Melodabeast wrote:

Game 5 2004 vs Spurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHbGDyTc2w

1st Quarter:
--11:30---good help defense. cuts off parker's penetration and force him to pass.


Lets look at first part of that game and EVERY Lakers defensive possessions:

Spoiler:
1. 11:30 - yes, his help D was ok, but only at first stage of the play. Notice, that Spurs possessions didn't end with Parker's pass, but Kobe's defense did - and that's bad thing. The moment Hedo had passed to Bowen and George rotated to Bowen, Kobe should have rotated to wide open Turkoglu, but he give up and doesn't do anything. Lakers didn't lost points on that play, but that doesn't change the fact that Bryant's defense wasn't good. On that play Spurs corner player (Bowen) didn't pass back to open man, but on most possessions he would and in these kind of situations Kobe would be late, because he finished defending the moment Parker had passed the ball.

2. 11:03 what is that?! Back to the player he is defending? Doesn't look good, even if we consider that Bowen was probably still in Spurs backcourt (because if that's the case, then he should have help on Duncan).

3. 10:30 overhelps, gambles and leaves his man open screwing Lakers defensive rotations. Very bad D.

4. 10:00 nothing to judge here, because he's on weak side and doesn't do much (good or bad).

5. 9:35 same as #4

6. 9:15 very good help D, stopped fast break.

7. 8:40 overhelping again, Malone was already in good position, yet Kobe leaves his man (and probably lost track of where he is) and that lead to Bowen's open3.

8 8:00 same as #4 and #5

9. 7:30 nothing flashy, but good , fundamentally sound team D - that's how he should defending instead of constantly overhelping

10. 6:50 again, nothing flashy, but sound team D


So overall 10 possessions on defense, on 4 of them his D was bad (overhelping or lack of effort), on 3 nothing to judge because he was on weak side, on 1 very good D and on 2 sound team D.

Doesn't look like positive impact on defense. He definitely was capable of playing good D (play #6), but quite often would rather try risky plays or give up (#1, #2, #3, #7) instead of playing fundamentally sound team defense (like possessions #9 and #10). I know, it's just 10 possessions, but I don't have time to watch more right now and really it doesn't look inconsistent with data we have about his defense - so that he was rather around average defensive player. or even with negative impact (what's not surprising considering how often he had been breaking team D).

--------
For me it's probably between Kobe and DRob. But I can also see Dirk, West, Dr J or even Barkley at this spot. Definitely not Karl Malone (or Moses, for that matter)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#86 » by Baller2014 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:59 pm

If there was ever a series which would be bad at measuring Kobe's D, the 2004 Spurs series would be it. The Spurs shooters couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that series, despite throwing up near record numbers of 3's. Rasho was useless on O too. The result was that the Lakers could get away with giving up space and doubling Duncan at will, because the Spurs shooters weren't hitting anything.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#87 » by DQuinn1575 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:24 pm

Baller2014 wrote:If there was ever a series which would be bad at measuring Kobe's D, the 2004 Spurs series would be it. The Spurs shooters couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that series, despite throwing up near record numbers of 3's. Rasho was useless on O too. The result was that the Lakers could get away with giving up space and doubling Duncan at will, because the Spurs shooters weren't hitting anything.


Where do you have Kobe rated? Who do you have in front of him that's left?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#88 » by Baller2014 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:28 pm

The only locks I have ahead of him are Karl Malone and Dr J. D.Rob peaked higher, but with his weak longevity I'd struggle to rank him ahead. I like to stay open minded for people's reasons of course, but I'd certainly expect Kobe to make the top 15.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#89 » by drza » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:37 pm

shutupandjam wrote:
drza wrote:Who's best at their best?
Box Score Statistics

Regular season, 10 year primes per100 possessions
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 36.8 pts (59.3% TS), 14.5 reb, 5 ast, 4 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 33.3 pts (58.8% TS), 15.9 reb, 4 ast, 3.9 TO

Playoffs, 10 year primes per 100 possessions
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 35 pts (52.9%), 15 reb, 4.4 asts, 3.7 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 30 pts (54.6%), 16.1 reb, 3.8 ast, 3.7 TO


Curious why you're leaving out blocks and steals, Robinson's primary advantages in the box score...


A couple of reasons, none of them sinister. First, this snippet is cut-and-pasted from the box score comparison that I did with like 8 players a couple of threads back. When I did it I was first comparing offenses, plus I had older players like Oscar and West on the list and they didn't have block/steals number. And I don't really love blocks/steals as a measure of defense anyway, so instead I tried to describe Robinson's big defensive advantage in other ways in the post.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#90 » by drza » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:07 pm

Would also love to see a LOT more talk about Dr. J. He's definitely worthy of heavy consideration here, but as yet he's only received fringe mentions. I'd love to do a breakdown of him (maybe vs. West), but it's work hours and I don't know if I'll get to it any time soon. But I'd love to see more about the good Doc, and how he compares with the other players getting discussed.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#91 » by Notanoob » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:08 pm

After seeing RayBan-Sematra post on West vs. Kobe, I don't think that I can vote for Kobe over him. I just don't see Kobe's advantage as a player over him.

I'd take Chuck over Karl and Dirk, considering that we're talking about offensive big men. While Chuck was certainly a negative on defense, his offensive advantage over both of those guys is enormous. I can't imagine that Chuck was so bad on defense that it covered the gap between their offense. We're talking about a guy who volume scored 28.3ppg on 66.5TS%! And he wasn't just some isolation scorer, he was a great passer out of double teams, and unlike Malone, he kept scoring in the playoffs.

I don't think that Chuck peaked higher than Robinson, but I'd like to see the comparison made if anyone thinks that he has a case.

So how about West vs. Dr. J, peak for peak? I really don't know enough about Dr. J to compare him myself, especially since he peaked in the ABA.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#92 » by colts18 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:19 pm

For those saying that Robinson didn't have much of an impact in 99.

During the playoffs that season his on court +/- was 19.5 points per 100 possessions (Duncan was 9.6). That 19.5 figure is by far the best figure for anyone since 1997 that played 30+ MPG.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#93 » by DQuinn1575 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:41 pm

[quote="Notanoob"]After seeing RayBan-Sematra post on West vs. Kobe, I don't think that I can vote for Kobe over him. I just don't see Kobe's advantage as a player over him.

quote]

I'm thinking that with Baylor and later with Wilt, West played almost every year with one of the top 5 players in the league.

The one title he did win, he did not play well in the playoffs - he is fifth on the team in winshares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1972.html

I think statistically they are pretty even.
I'll give West a pass on not beating Celtics versus Kobe winning with Shaq.

That still leaves Kobe as leader of 2 championship teams versus West being a co-leader (with Wilt) on one.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#94 » by Notanoob » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:45 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm thinking that with Baylor and later with Wilt, West played almost every year with one of the top 5 players in the league.

The one title he did win, he did not play well in the playoffs - he is fifth on the team in winshares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1972.html

I think statistically they are pretty even.
I'll give West a pass on not beating Celtics versus Kobe winning with Shaq.

That still leaves Kobe as leader of 2 championship teams versus West being a co-leader (with Wilt) on one.
I don't really fault him for not winning titles, I mean, he was excellent in the Finals against a team generally considered the GOAT defense, and in his later years his team dealt with injuries (Baylor) and of course Wilt clashed with his coach early on.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#95 » by Eglend » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:45 pm

Notanoob wrote:After seeing RayBan-Sematra post on West vs. Kobe, I don't think that I can vote for Kobe over him. I just don't see Kobe's advantage as a player over him.

I'd take Chuck over Karl and Dirk, considering that we're talking about offensive big men. While Chuck was certainly a negative on defense, his offensive advantage over both of those guys is enormous. I can't imagine that Chuck was so bad on defense that it covered the gap between their offense. We're talking about a guy who volume scored 28.3ppg on 66.5TS%! And he wasn't just some isolation scorer, he was a great passer out of double teams, and unlike Malone, he kept scoring in the playoffs.

I don't think that Chuck peaked higher than Robinson, but I'd like to see the comparison made if anyone thinks that he has a case.

So how about West vs. Dr. J, peak for peak? I really don't know enough about Dr. J to compare him myself, especially since he peaked in the ABA.


I'd disagree with you regarding Chuck vs Dirk. Chuck's advantage in volume scoring is negated IMO by Dirk's low turnover percentage combined with the incredible spacing that he provides. Add to that Dirk's better defense, and I'd argue that Dirk's impact was greater. I think it's pretty close between them, and you can't really go wrong with either, as they were both elite playoff performers.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#96 » by Black Feet » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:47 pm

lorak wrote:
Melodabeast wrote:

Game 5 2004 vs Spurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHbGDyTc2w

1st Quarter:
--11:30---good help defense. cuts off parker's penetration and force him to pass.


Lets look at first part of that game and EVERY Lakers defensive possessions:

Spoiler:
1. 11:30 - yes, his help D was ok, but only at first stage of the play. Notice, that Spurs possessions didn't end with Parker's pass, but Kobe's defense did - and that's bad thing. The moment Hedo had passed to Bowen and George rotated to Bowen, Kobe should have rotated to wide open Turkoglu, but he give up and doesn't do anything. Lakers didn't lost points on that play, but that doesn't change the fact that Bryant's defense wasn't good. On that play Spurs corner player (Bowen) didn't pass back to open man, but on most possessions he would and in these kind of situations Kobe would be late, because he finished defending the moment Parker had passed the ball.

2. 11:03 what is that?! Back to the player he is defending? Doesn't look good, even if we consider that Bowen was probably still in Spurs backcourt (because if that's the case, then he should have help on Duncan).

3. 10:30 overhelps, gambles and leaves his man open screwing Lakers defensive rotations. Very bad D.

4. 10:00 nothing to judge here, because he's on weak side and doesn't do much (good or bad).

5. 9:35 same as #4

6. 9:15 very good help D, stopped fast break.

7. 8:40 overhelping again, Malone was already in good position, yet Kobe leaves his man (and probably lost track of where he is) and that lead to Bowen's open3.

8 8:00 same as #4 and #5

9. 7:30 nothing flashy, but good , fundamentally sound team D - that's how he should defending instead of constantly overhelping

10. 6:50 again, nothing flashy, but sound team D


So overall 10 possessions on defense, on 4 of them his D was bad (overhelping or lack of effort), on 3 nothing to judge because he was on weak side, on 1 very good D and on 2 sound team D.

Doesn't look like positive impact on defense. He definitely was capable of playing good D (play #6), but quite often would rather try risky plays or give up (#1, #2, #3, #7) instead of playing fundamentally sound team defense (like possessions #9 and #10). I know, it's just 10 possessions, but I don't have time to watch more right now and really it doesn't look inconsistent with data we have about his defense - so that he was rather around average defensive player. or even with negative impact (what's not surprising considering how often he had been breaking team D).

--------
For me it's probably between Kobe and DRob. But I can also see Dirk, West, Dr J or even Barkley at this spot. Definitely not Karl Malone (or Moses, for that matter)

Sorry but melo's analysis was much better, for example on the first play you say he should have rotated to Hedo but he did the right thing by going for the rebound after seeing Bowen take the shot. I won't get into the rest because I don't have time for it now.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#97 » by Basketballefan » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:53 pm

I think guys like Dr J and Moses Malone need more traction.

Karl Malone is not better than either one of them imo, let alone better than Kobe.

No way Drob should be mentioned before Moses imo, Moses was a better playoff performer, and has better longevity. I don't like to ring count but he also did win a title as the man while Drob was second banana to Duncan. Drob couldn't make the Finals until Duncan rolled around. Also Moses' 3 mvps weren't just by accident, i know a lot of posters don't like to use accolades, they are not everything but i don't see how its wise to just throw them out the window.

As for Karl Malone yeah he does have longevity on Moses but he wasn't the playoff performer Moses was and has the lesser peak imo. Again lets not just dismiss 3 mvps and FMVP because we feel like it. I mean he did sweep Kareem and Magic in the finals, Karl Malone had 2 chances at a ring an failed both times and miserably at that.

Karl Malone and Drob were great don't get me wrong i just think its a little ridiculous they are being argued over Kobe, Dr J and Moses. DROB should be going more in the 18-21 range imo, as opposed to 13-15.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#98 » by lorak » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:56 pm

Black Feet wrote:Sorry but melo's analysis was much better, for example on the first play you say he should have rotated to Hedo but he did the right thing by going for the rebound after seeing Bowen take the shot.


Kobe's bad defense started after Parker's pass, so before Bowen's shot! (Besides there was no need for him to go after rebound.)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#99 » by FJS » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:12 pm

Basketballefan wrote:
As for Karl Malone yeah he does have longevity on Moses but he wasn't the playoff performer Moses was and has the lesser peak imo. Again lets not just dismiss 3 mvps and FMVP because we feel like it. I mean he did sweep Kareem and Magic in the finals, Karl Malone had 2 chances at a ring an failed both times and miserably at that.



Miserably?

In 97 they lost by 2 1st game, by 2 games 5 and by 4 game 6.
In 98 they lost by 5 game 2, by 4 game 4 and by 1 game 6.

I don't think this is near to fail miserably.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #13 

Post#100 » by Black Feet » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:14 pm

lorak wrote:
Black Feet wrote:Sorry but melo's analysis was much better, for example on the first play you say he should have rotated to Hedo but he did the right thing by going for the rebound after seeing Bowen take the shot.


Kobe's bad defense started after Parker's pass, so before Bowen's shot! (Besides there was no need for him to go after rebound.)

So in the one second it took the ball to get from Parker to Bowen? No need to go for the rebound? No offense but you wouldn't be a very good basketball coach.

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