RealGM Top 100 List #13

[lorak]

No offense but you wouldn't be a very good basketball coach.

Great, in deep argumentation! You convinced me!

[Basketballefan]

As for Karl Malone yeah he does have longevity on Moses but he wasn't the playoff performer Moses was and has the lesser peak imo. Again lets not just dismiss 3 mvps and FMVP because we feel like it. I mean he did sweep Kareem and Magic in the finals, Karl Malone had 2 chances at a ring an failed both times and miserably at that.

Miserably?

In 97 they lost by 2 1st game, by 2 games 5 and by 4 game 6.
In 98 they lost by 5 game 2, by 4 game 4 and by 1 game 6.

I don't think this is near to fail miserably.

I meant as far as his performance, he had a 49 TS% in the 97' finals. That's garbage efficiency for anyone especially a big man.

[ardee]

Spoiler:

People are doubting Bryant's defense. They seem to believe all those all-defensive team that are voted on by the coaches came from nowhere, which seems pretty silly. There's a reason he got that defensive rep in the first place. Quick hands, great foot-speed and lateral quickness, knows how to help and recover, fantastic defensive rebounding guard, great length..He has all the tools and he consistently used those tools where it counts the mos: the post-season. I've decided to track his defense in multiple playoff games/finals games where it really matters and where he consistently stepped up, so people can see why he was at least a good defender throughout his prime.


Game 5 2004 vs Spurs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEHbGDyTc2w

1st Quarter:
--11:30---good help defense. cuts off parker's penetration and force him to pass.

9:05---again, helps on parker's penetration, and strips him forcing him to lose the ball

7:18--duncan gets doubled, kobe cuts off his passing angle, which leads to duncan throwing a tough pass to the weakside. leads to turnover.

2:44--cuts off parker's drive, and quickly recovers to the corner shooter, and forces him to put the ball on the floor

1:38--deflection

2nd Quarter:
9:39 second--excellent defense by both shaq/bryant on a cutting duncan. kobe tips the defensive rebound to shaq.

2:36--tips deflected passed to teammate

3rd quarter:

9:24--great strip of the ball on duncan. forces turnover.

8:52--great strip on duncan by shaq, kobe recovers loose ball

8:23--picture perfect help and recovery. cuts off hedo's penetration,and quickly recovers to bowen forcing him to put the ball on the floor.

8:12--bowen sneaks behind him but bryant quickly recovers and contests. bowen turns it over.

4;46---manu gets the step on george but bryant quickly comes over to help and forces him to give it up.

1:51--contest on brown'st three.miss.

5.5 sec: parker blows by fisher, again,bryant does an excellent job helping and cutting him off.

4th quarter:

8:29--parker blows by fisher. bryant is quickly there to cut him off again.

5:26--hedo gets the step on geroge,but bryant gets a hand in his face and forces a tough shot.

3:27--again, parker penetrates, but both malone and bryant do a great job of cutting off his passing angle, which leads to shot-clock violation

10.4 sec: GREAT ball denial on ginobil.

5.4 sec; again, great ball denial on ginobli. that's two straight plays where he blows up the spurs play for a gino/duncan pick&roll with terrific ball denial.



This is a very good defensive game, especially in terms of team/help defense. I count 2 forced turnovers, a deflection, 4 defensive rebounds, consistently good help and recovery, and the opponent shot 1-5 on shots he contested. Only 2 defensive mistakes in 46 minutes.

2004 Lakers vs Pistons Game 3:
Spends all game chasing Rip Hamilton around and does a very good job imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXxinAr7G9s

8:28--recovers loose ball

3:23--gets through multiple picks, and does a great job contesting rip's shot.forces him into a tough double-pump jumper which he somehow makes.

40.6: again, gets around multiple picks set for rip, and causes a deflection.

33.1: quickly recovers onto wide open billups after near steal. possession ends in a shot-clock violation for detroit.

2nd Quarter:
10:26--Helps and quickly gets back to open Billups forcing him to put the ball on the floor. possession ends with ben wallace jumper...

3:31--great contest on rips shot. forces rip to adjust and pass, which leads to a near turnover

2:31--single-handedly stops the fast break of the pistons.GREAT deflection of rip's pass in transition. loose ball recovered by lakers, which leads to a a basket on the other hand.

38th second--great play. moves his feet to get in front of rip, and then uses his long arms to poke the ball away. leads to 2 on the other end.

15th second--again, rips attempts to drive. kobe uses his great foot speed to beat him to the spot. forces a charge call. this is the 3rd turnover forced by bryant in the first half alone.

rip scores 12 pts on 11 shots and has 4 turnovers in the first half.

3rd quarter:

10:49: chases rip through multiple picks and then has a good contest on his jumper

9:01: strips and steals the ball from rip.

6:15--terrific ball denial on hamilton. at this point rip is pretty much being completely shut out of the offense

2:46--helps on billups drive and quickly recovers to hamilton, who attempts to drive, but again bryant moves his feet and beats him to the spot.

4th quarter:

*lakers take bryant off rip in this quarter and put kareem rush on him. hamilton has his best quarter of the game and suddenly looks much more comfortable. blows completely by rush on 4-5 possesions, two for easy layups.for people who say man-to-man defense doesn't matter...watch how bad rip looks through 3 quarters with bryant on him compared to the 4th quarter with rush defending him. have no idea why phil switched*

*phil takes kareem rush out at the 1:09 mark.puts bryant back on him*


56 sec: rip gets the step but bryant recovers and forces a miss.

Overtime:

4-22: great contest on rahsheed wallace's missed jumper.

1:04: good help and then contest on hamilton's three

Overall, this is another very strong outing defensively. His primary assignment in Rip Hamilton goes 10-15 for 26 points and has 5 turnovers. Bryant ends up with 3 turnovers forced (2 steals, and a charge drawn), 2 deflections, 4 defensive rebounds and he spends almost the entire game chasing Rip around and holds him to 10-25 for 26 pts with 4 turnovers. What more do you want from the guy...


2001 NBA Finals Game 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I5DvTw15aE

*Spends almost the first half guarding and hounding and applying pressure on Aaron McKie, who won the 6th man of the year that season*

9:54--iverson shakes off fisher in transition with a great spin move
and goes up for the jumper but Bryant is immediately with a great contest. Iverson has to re-adjust in mid-air and passes it off.

6:00--great contest on mutombo's shot. mutombo blows the dunk

3:25--cuts off mckie's penetration with his lateral quickness,leads to turnover,recovers looseball

3:12--good team defense. shaq and fisher trap iverson, who swings it. mutombo dives to the rim, but bryant is there to cut off the pass, then sprints to run mckie off the three-point line.

7.3 seconds--iverson gets doubled. swings it to snow. bryant runs him off the 3-pt line and then then cuts off his drive.

2nd Quarter:

11:40--snow beats shaw off the dribble and goes up for layup but bryant rotates over from the weakside, jumps and contests. snow hits a ridiclous high-arching floater. great shot by snow. good help defense by bryant.

11:05--picture perfect rotations by the entire laker team including bryant. force a turnover. good ****.

7:55--horry goes over to trap iverson.bryant digs down and pick's up horry's man, then sprints to a open mckie and runs him off the 3-pt line. this is team excellant fundamental team defense.

4:12--switches on to iverson, moves his feet on the drive, then pokes the ball away out of bounds

2:36--helps on iverson penetration, then contest's iverson's tough jumper

1:00--gets in front of snow,moves his feet, and bothers him. snow dribbles it out of bounds. forced turnover.

27 sec--great ball denial on iverson, then a great contest on iverson's three later in the possession. leads to a fastbreak dunk

7 sec--terrific ball denial on iverson again. leads to a ugly possession by the sixers.

3rd quarter:

7:07--terrific block on aaron mckie's jumper

4:04--cuts off snow. pokes the ball away. deflection

1:07--cuts off snow, who goes up for the jumper. bryant jumps and blocks it. ball deflected to fisher.

4th quarter:

11:27--bryant picks up loose ball after a great defensive block by fox.


7:28--bryant comes over from the weakside and cuts off iverson's baseline penetration. iverson is forced to pass it off. leads to turnover.

6:46--bryant comes over and strips mutombo. recovers the ball. 2nd forced turnover of the game by bryant.

4:26--comes over and contests mutombo's hook shot

That's 2 steals, 2 blocks, several deflections, 2 forced turnovers overall, and 7 defensive rebounds. Another fantastic defensive outing.

2002 WCF Game 4 vs Kings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkJGUgb ... 255EF80098

*Bibby has been destroying Fisher all series, and continues to do so in the 1st half. He's wrecking havoc. Bryant switches on to him in the second half and completely shuts him down, and the Kings offense falls off a cliff*

Here's a article on the game: http://articles.latimes.com/2002/may/27 ... p-adande27

He shut off the spigot of Sacramento's offensive flow, point guard Mike Bibby, and reintroduced the Lakers to the concept of defense in the process.

"It started in practice Saturday, when he told Coach Phil Jackson that he was willing to take on the assignment of guarding Bibby. Something had to be done, because Bibby has been tearing through the Lakers the way Shawn Green took out the Milwaukee Brewer pitching staff. Jackson was reluctant.

"He said he didn't want to wear me out the entire game, but I reminded him that's what I did for this team two years ago, was chase little guards around," Bryant said. "I'd be more than willing to give myself up to benefit the team if that's what he wanted me to do.

"If that's what Phil wants me to do, I'm going to do it."

Finally, Jackson had no choice after Bibby continued to torch Derek Fisher and Lindsey Hunter in the first quarter of Game 4.

Bibby made five of his first six shots. He didn't rack up the assists, but his ability to get by the Laker guards wrecked the Laker defense and enabled his teammates to shoot open jumpers."

"Down by 24 points, Jackson finally put Bryant on Bibby in the second quarter."

But Bryant worked to deny Bibby the ball. He hustled to stay in front of him. He harassed him all over the court when Bibby dribbled.

After scoring 14 points in the first 17 minutes, Bibby had only seven the rest of the way. The Kings went from scoring 40 points in the first quarter to scoring 34 in the second half.

"You've got to really thank Kobe for that," Horry said. "He put some pressure on Bibby, the offensive flow kind of stalled. Kobe put a lot of pressure on Bibby and interrupted their groove."

*Bryant switches on to Bibby in the second half of Game 4 with the Lakers down 65-50*

*Bibby is coming off an amazing 1st half. 18 pts on 8/11 shooting*

11:30--bryant hounds bibby into help,bibby misses, bryant gets the defensive rebound 0-2

10:07--again, bryant all over bibby. forces him to give the ball up.

8:37--bryant and horry trap bibby. leads to turnover

8:15--bryant gets around multiple picks. sticks to bibby like glue. bibby forced to pass. at this point the kings offense looks totally discombulated.

8:00--good ball denial by bryant

6:25--bryant continues to be all over bibby. his length and athletism is clearly bothering him

4:25--again, bryant gets around multiple picks. bibby forced to settle for long two, which he misses.

4:10--bryant doubles webber and quickly recovers to bibbby, who is forced to pass to jackson on the wing.jackson throws up a airball.

3:24--bryant recovers loose ball

On the bench for the rest of the quarter. bibby goes 0-3 for 2 pts with Bryant defending him this quarter.

4th Quarter:
11:33--bryant gets around multiple off-ball picks set for jackson, then denies penetration. jackson forced to pass back out..

9:25--again, bryant gets through multiple picks set for jackson, then stops his drive.

7:20--double on webber and quick recovery to the shooters

4:00--good ball denial again

3:37--bryant pressures bibby all the way upcourt. cuts off penetration and again bibby is forced to pass to a covered divac on the wing.

3:00--bryant knocks the ball away from divac. forced turnover.

2:33--bryant pressures bibby. gets under back pick and denys the drive by bibby who is forced to again pass out to a covered webber with only seconds left on the clock. webber passes back to bibby, who shoots the jumper. GREAT contest by bryant and bibby shoots the airball. terrific defensive sequence by kobe.

1:54--bryant rotates after the double on webber by fisher. cut's off hedo's penetration and does a good job contesting hedo's tough jumper,which he somehow makes.



Bibby finished the 2nd half 1-5 for 3 points in the second half, with Bryant on him for the huge majority. Kings offense only scores 34 in the seond half after 65 in the 3rd.

This was another excellent defensive performance by Bryant.Not only with the on-ball/man-to-man defense on Bibby, but he also had 3 blocks, 2 steals, 4 defensive rebounds, and a forced turnover.


How anybody can watch these games and say he's not at least a *good defender* is beyond me.

I've included YT links if you want to check them out.

BTW, here another article about Bryant holding shutting down and holding Iverson scoreless for an entire half:
Kobe Bryant's defense didn't just neutralize Allen Iverson's offense, it completely shut it down.

Bryant held Iverson scoreless in the second half and scored his team's final six points Sunday to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their seventh straight win, 87-84 over the Philadelphia 76ers.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/022100/ ... 0029.shtml

[Reservoirdawgs]

I'd take Chuck over Karl and Dirk, considering that we're talking about offensive big men. While Chuck was certainly a negative on defense, his offensive advantage over both of those guys is enormous. I can't imagine that Chuck was so bad on defense that it covered the gap between their offense. We're talking about a guy who volume scored 28.3ppg on 66.5TS%! And he wasn't just some isolation scorer, he was a great passer out of double teams, and unlike Malone, he kept scoring in the playoffs.

I'll take a stab at Dirk vs. Chuck.

Dir Nowitzki 15-year sample (1141 games, 41645 minutes):
PER: 23.6
TS%: 58.3 (approximately 16 FGA/game)
eFG%: 51.6
TRB%: 12.8
AST%: 13.3
TOV%: 8.6
ORtg: 116.9

Charles Barkley 15-year sample (1053 games, 38710 minutes)
PER: 24.5
TS%: 60.7 (approximately 15 FGA/game)
eFG%: 55.3
TRB%: 18.3
AST%: 17.7
TOV%: 14.9
ORtg: 118.8

Hmm...I honestly don't have an argument for Dirk over Chuck here. Chuck is certainly the better scorer and his TRB% is just unreal. The other thing that surprised me was that Barkley had a 17.7 AST%. I'm too young to have seen Philadelphia Barkley, but my memory of Barkley on his last legs on the Suns and then Rockets was that he was not a great passer. Clearly that was incorrect. His TOV% is pretty high, but when he does everything else right it is hard to fault him for just that one area.

What if we look at the postseason?

Dirk Nowitzki (135 games, 5544 minutes):
PER: 23.8
TS%: 57.1
eFG%: 48.4
TRB%: 13.8
AST%: 11.5
TOV%: 9
ORtg: 116.9

Charles Barkley (110 games, 4441 minutes):
PER: 24.4
TS%: 59.6
eFG%: 54.4
TRB%: 18.1
AST%: 17.1
TOV%: 13
ORtg: 118.3

Again...showing the numbers out of context, I can't make an argument for Dirk over Chuck. Dirk has some great stats but as far as offense is concerned, Barkley is the better player. Honestly, it's a VERY short list of people who are better offensively than Barkley, particularly in his prime.

Since I have argued for Dirk for the #12 (now #13) ranking, I would lean on Dirk's superior defense and something I've hesitated spending too much time on for most players - attitude issues. For defense, Dirk is clearly the better player. Barkley just didn't give a damn on defense, something he has admitted himself, something his coaches and teammates have pointed out, and something that is readily apparent when you watch the games. Now, the question was whether Dirk's superiority on defense trumps Barkley's superiority on offense. To be quite honest - I don't know. Unfortunately we don't have RAPM data to compare DRAPM and overall RAPM for Barkley and Dirk and I'm not comfortable with my own analysis of Barkley's defense since I was nine years old when he last played more than 70 games (1995-96 season). My assumption is that Dirk's better defense is larger than the gap between the offense for the two players, but I can't prove it.

However, when bringing up Barkley I would point to attitude issues as a negative. I know that penbeast has already mentioned some of Barkley's past issues so I won't go as far into it, but I would say it's a problem when you have a player getting in fights with fans, throwing them through windows, and spitting on fans. Reading the Dream Team book by Jack McCollough is really interesting - even though Barkley was one of the best players in the world, the coaches were VERY hesitant about including him simply because of his well-known attitude issues and aloofness. That really says a lot to me that when coming up with the best players in the US to represent the Dream Team it wasn't his ability but his attitude that made him a near-miss.

With Dirk, you don't have any of that. Barkley is certainly the better offensive player, but Dirk is the player I would feel more comfortable with on my team. My assumption is that Dirk's defensive edge is higher than the offensive edge, but I can't prove it. I feel he's a better teammate who won't be a headache to deal with. I'm certainly willing to be swayed...researching Barkley continues to amaze me at what an offensive powerhouse he was.

[E-Balla]

In 08 the Lakers were 35-20 without Pau despite having a team full of scrubs, a very skilled Odom, and constantly injured help (Bynum and Rad Vlad). They traded for Pau Gasol and here you can see the true value of Kobe and Phil (together).

Ok, see this is just wrong. The 2008 Lakers were a long way from a "team of scrubs" as a support cast. Bynum played like an all-star, he was putting up 13-10-2 in only 28mpg and looking fantastic. Odom was an all-star quality player, even if he never made a team. Fisher was 33, still young enough to fill the role of solid vet player. Radman was a decent enough player, he had just gotten paid because teams recognised his value as a role player. To call Radman a scrub is disingenuous. Farmer and Turiaf were young, but they gave the team good energy off the bench and played well. Neither was a scrub. Vujanic played like a scrub at some points in his career, but not in 2008. This was his contract year, and he played well enough to get paid. Lakers fans in the know often distinguish between "contract year Vujanic" and regular Vujanic. So the support cast certainly did not suck, and was obviously well coached.

Your analysis of their pre-Pau record is also misleading. The team was only 9-7 in games Bynum/Pau didn't play. It was only when Bynum, playing like an all-star big, or Pau (playing like an all-nba big) were on the court that the Lakers looked like a contender, so Kobe didn't carry them anywhere that year. Interestingly Bynum and Pau never played together, because Bynum got hurt not long before Pau arrived. Just to focus in on Bynum again, once he got the starter gig he was even better than his overall stats make him out to be (he was putting up 15-11-2 as a starter on 675 TS%, and the Lakers were 17-8 while he started). Obviously once Pau arrived they ripped it up like never before.

I forgot about Fish but notice I said scrubs and. I didn't call it a team full of scrubs I called it Vlad, Bynum, Odom, (forgot about Fish) and scrubs like Sasha, Farmar, Turiaf (all of who were not good). They also had a 3.3 SRS without both Bynum and Pau (19 game sample). That's a 51 Pythagorean win team. With literally 3 above crap players on the roster outside of Kobe.

Pau went from averaging 19/9/3 to 19/8/4 in less time. Nothing major until you see his efficiency. His TS jumped from 57 to 64 and his ORTG from 114 to 128. That wasn't a sample size thing either because the next season Pau led the league in ORTG. He was never that efficient before playing with Kobe and their teamwork has always been regarded as top of the line. The most memorable thing about that first Finals win without Shaq was how well Pau and Kobe were clicking (even in the numbers you can tell Pau took more of a finisher role and Kobe distributed more).

When you go from being the primary option on a mediocre team to being the secondary offensive option on a deep team, it's hardly surprising that your efficiency goes up. That's the normal progression. It is a far cry from suggesting Kobe was somehow making Pau play better. To me it looked like Pau was playing much like he always had, like back when he led 3 mediocre Grizzlies teams to the playoffs (an interesting contrast to Kobe's 3 year run from 05-07, which was markedly less successful). Part of that TS% increase is also obviously an anomaly, probably produced by the small sample size. He was back down to 617TS% the following year, and then 593TS% the year after that. I think the 2 full seasons before and after 08 are a lot more accurate than the 27 game sample in 08 you try to use. Pau's TS% the two full seasons before he got to the Lakers was 594TS% and 593TS%, so the increase is not at all as you make it out to be (in fact his 06 and 07 TS% is equal with his 2010 TS%). The 09 increase is in line with the marginal increase in efficiency you'd expect when a player goes from being the man on offense on a mediocre team, to being the 2nd option on a stacked team (and a team where Odom is the 3rd best player, 4th when Bynum is healthy, is clearly a stacked team; to say nothing of the other solid players on those Laker teams). The 27 game sample in 08 just looks like an anomaly that he never came close to again.

Its not common for a player's raw production and efficiency to both go up and his TS was an anomaly but he had a 128 ORTG in those 27 games and a league leading 126 ORTG in 2009. His production overall was actually worse in those 27 games than the next season. Compared to the 112-115 ORTGs he had in Memphis that's kind of a big deal.

Is hard to find other players who played so well in different situations (with Phil being his only constant).

This is a weird comment. Kobe basically succeeded in two situations:
1) Playing next to Shaq in a triangle system Phil coached, and
2) Playing next to Pau/Odom in a triangle system Phil coached.
I fail to see the differences. There were changes around the edges, but Kobe substantially played in the same situations for all his success (and in the case of Kobe and Shaq there is certainly an element of "they succeeded in spite of not wanting to work together" not because of a magical chemistry that made them synergise or something.

He had 3 completely separate rosters he's won with and 2 separate rosters he's won a ring with. The only carry over from his early years was Fish and the only carry over from the middle years was Odom. A Pau/Odom frontcourt was completely different than Shaq and the team dynamic was completely different (they ran everything through Kobe the second time around).

[E-Balla]

Too bad DRTG means nothing. Read up on how its calculated and I bet you'll never use it again in this context (especially in this context).

Hey, I know it's based on box score stats and those don't capture defense very well. But I still think that it's telling that Kobe is the WORST on his team, which coincides with the eyeball narrative of him conserving energy on defense so he can consume more possessions on offense.

Just as telling as Bruce Bowen constantly having the lowest DRTG on the Spurs. It means absolutely nothing when used as a comparison between teammates. Nada, zilch, zero.

[E-Balla]

When you go from being the primary option on a mediocre team to being the secondary offensive option on a deep team, it's hardly surprising that your efficiency goes up. That's the normal progression. It is a far cry from suggesting Kobe was somehow making Pau play better.

Now now, be fair. Pau's efficiency went up because he was playing with more talented teammates. Given that Kobe was Pau's most talented teammate, I think it's fair to credit Kobe with some of Pau's increased efficiency.

Playing next to Kobe helped take the pressure off Pau, I already said that. But the degree to which it helped has been totally distorted by GC Pan using only a 27 game sample that Pau never reached again, and comparing it to another small sample (that is also not consistent with regular Pau). Pau's TS% in the 2 years before he got to LA (in 06 and 07) was equal to Pau's TS% 2 years after he got to LA (in 2010), and only moderately lower than 2009, so it's obvious the 27 game sample is inappropriate to use.

Career ORTG for Pau from 05-11:
05 - 112
06 - 111
07 - 115
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126
10 - 120
11 - 123

There is a clear increase once he gets to LA.

[E-Balla]

To people doubting Kobe's defense look at his DRAPM (because this number is probably the only reason you doubt him) from 08-10. Now he was seen as a better defender from 00-04 (I believe he was) and we all know he could turn it on when need be plus he always played defense in the playoffs. At this point I don't feel like his defense is that big an issue.

[colts18]

It's really funny how this guy makes really intelligent posts and people just ignore it because it doesn't jibe with what they want to believe.

It's because the guy is a troll who is a previously banned poster. Posters here don't want to engage with known trolls.

[semi-sentient]

Too bad DRTG means nothing. Read up on how its calculated and I bet you'll never use it again in this context (especially in this context).

Hey, I know it's based on box score stats and those don't capture defense very well. But I still think that it's telling that Kobe is the WORST on his team, which coincides with the eyeball narrative of him conserving energy on defense so he can consume more possessions on offense.

Just as telling as Bruce Bowen constantly having the lowest DRTG on the Spurs. It means absolutely nothing when used as a comparison between teammates. Nada, zilch, zero.

Yeah, I've never seen any particular use for individual dRtg. Bowen being dead last or near the bottom for multiple seasons throws up a huge red flag and should be reason enough for people stop using it for comparisons.

[MistyMountain20]

post removed -- contentless baiting

[ardee]

It's really funny how this guy makes really intelligent posts and people just ignore it because it doesn't jibe with what they want to believe.

It's because the guy is a troll who is a previously banned poster. Posters here don't want to engage with known trolls.

But does that take away from the content of THIS post?

He took the effort to analyze dozens of plays from 5 different games, I don't see why that should be considered trolling.

[MistyMountain20]

post removed -- contentless baiting

But it's okay for another poster to call someone else a troll? C'mon.

[Reservoirdawgs]

What about Baller?

This has been brought up many times, but he's basically being ignored...kind of like what was happening with Melodabeast. Although I see Lorak went through parts of his post and broke it down and disagreed with his findings. I can't watch the video analysis because I'm at work, but on the service I'll trust someone else's opinion over a known troll until I can look it over myself.

[PaulieWal]

Is it just my computer or is this page broken? Looks weird.

[MistyMountain20]

What about Baller?

This has been brought up many times, but he's basically being ignored...kind of like what was happening with Melodabeast. Although I see Lorak went through parts of his post and broke it down and disagreed with his findings. I can't watch the video analysis because I'm at work, but on the service I'll trust someone else's opinion over a known troll until I can look it over myself.

But that's not exactly true. Posters have engaged in discussion with him - are they being swayed by him? I doubt it, most posters could see that he has an agenda. But his rhetoric does cast a certain atmosphere of discussion and it hasn't been conducive

[semi-sentient]

What about Baller?

This has been brought up many times, but he's basically being ignored...kind of like what was happening with Melodabeast. Although I see Lorak went through parts of his post and broke it down and disagreed with his findings. I can't watch the video analysis because I'm at work, but on the service I'll trust someone else's opinion over a known troll until I can look it over myself.

He's being ignored by the more seasoned, less biased posters, but he's influencing others and still has a vote.

[An Unbiased Fan]

To people doubting Kobe's defense look at his DRAPM (because this number is probably the only reason you doubt him) from 08-10. Now he was seen as a better defender from 00-04 (I believe he was) and we all know he could turn it on when need be plus he always played defense in the playoffs. At this point I don't feel like his defense is that big an issue.

It's just strange really. Like we're being told what we saw, and what we know is all wrong because DRAPM says so. That all the NBA greats, coaches, GMs, scouts, are just fooled. Nevermind that Synergy defensive stats have backed up Kobe's defensive reputation consistently over the years.

Would anyone else care to weigh in on Dirk? In my comp with Kobe I currently have them essentially tied. I'd love to hear some other opinions.

I'm a fan of Dirk's, but don't see how its tied when Kobe is better offensively, and defensively than him. This again goes back to the Kobe vs Bird comparison where I'm not sure how Bird was better either.

Dirk's one real advantage is a higher TS%, but that came in lower volume. Kobe is the superior playmaker, and Dirk has never really impressed me in that regard. Defensively, Dirk was not good until Avery came there. He was decent in his prime, but again, not Kobe's level on that side of the court. Pre-Prime/Prime/Post-Prime, again Kobe has the advantage.

[magicmerl]

People are doubting Bryant's defense. They seem to believe all those all-defensive team that are voted on by the coaches came from nowhere, which seems pretty silly. There's a reason he got that defensive rep in the first place.

I think you're misunderstanding a position you don't hold. Kobe was great at defense during the first 3-peat. His defensive rep and awards during that time are well earned. However, once Shaq was run out of town and Kobe didn't have to share the ball any more, he coasted on defense so he had more energy for offense.

I would argue that his defensive awards since that time are largely based on rep and not merited by reality.

[shutupandjam]

I wonder if we're beginning to overlook defense in favor of offense at this point in the project. A couple of questions:

Did David Robinson's defense suffer in the playoffs?

Was David Robinson's offense in the playoffs any worse than Bill Russell's?

Assuming the answer to both these questions is no, what specifically did Russell provide that was so much better than Robinson that Russell could be voted in at #3 and Robinson will likely not be in the top 15? Better teammates? Robinson played 13 years in the NBA if we don't count the 1997 season, exactly as many as Russell.Yet Robinson's longevity is questioned more because he took a backseat in scoring to Duncan. I wonder if we'd question his longevity as much if he hadn't been his team's offensive anchor for his first 8 years. (ftr, I'm not trying to make the argument that Robinson had great longevity, but I think it's better than some make it out to be)

A hypothetical that I'm curious to get opinions on: Bill Russell switches places with David Robinson, how does each one do? Does anyone actually believe Russell would win a title with the pre-Duncan Spurs? Or that Robinson's Celtics wouldn't be dominant?