RealGM Top 100 List #13

[drza]

Spoiler:

Now now, be fair. Pau's efficiency went up because he was playing with more talented teammates. Given that Kobe was Pau's most talented teammate, I think it's fair to credit Kobe with some of Pau's increased efficiency.

Playing next to Kobe helped take the pressure off Pau, I already said that. But the degree to which it helped has been totally distorted by GC Pan using only a 27 game sample that Pau never reached again, and comparing it to another small sample (that is also not consistent with regular Pau). Pau's TS% in the 2 years before he got to LA (in 06 and 07) was equal to Pau's TS% 2 years after he got to LA (in 2010), and only moderately lower than 2009, so it's obvious the 27 game sample is inappropriate to use.

Career ORTG for Pau from 05-11:
05 - 112
06 - 111
07 - 115
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126
10 - 120
11 - 123

There is a clear increase once he gets to LA.

You stopping at 2011 made me curious, so I went and looked up Pau's ORTG in 2012 - 2014. And it brings up a Devil's advocate question: how much of that increase once he gets to LAL should be attributed to Phil Jackson and the triangle offense? Because if you put a bit more detail and continue your chart of Pau''s ORTGs through the years:

05 - 112 Memphis
06 - 111 Memphis
07 - 115 Memphis
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
10 - 120 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
11 - 123 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
12 - 112 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil
13 - 107 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil and Pau injuries
14 - 102 Lakers with no Kobe, no Phil and Pau Injuries

It's always difficult to tease out patterns, but it sure looks to me that Phil Jackson and the Triangle offense were more the limiting factor for Pau's huge efficiency bump than Kobe was. In 2012 Kobe and Pau were both present and healthy enough to play almost every game, but Phil was gone and Pau's efficiency fell all the way back to the level that it used to be in Memphis.

Plus, this is a narrative that makes some sense, right? Pau was seemingly born to play in the Triangle with his passing ability and comfort making decisions. To an extent, Odom was too for similar reasons. And the Triangle has to-date proven to be the best offense for harnessing mega-high scoring SGs into a strong team offense.

I'm not saying having a talented teammate like Kobe wasn't helpful to Pau's efficiency...I'd think that it may have played a benefit as well. But at a first pass, it certainly looks like the sea-change difference was more about Pau getting integrated into the Triangle.

[Reservoirdawgs]

I think some of those numbers might be skewed (superficially) in Barkley's favour weren't league average Ortgs and TS% generally higher during his career (obviously it changes year to year).

Initially I was going to include the difference in league average, but I couldn't find a website that could simplify it for me versus me going through BBR and doing it year by year for both players. Since I don't have hours to do that, I dropped it. It's my understanding that the first parts of Dirk's career would be dealing with a lower league average than Barkley (around 99-03 or so) but then have it go higher...I have no idea if that is reasonable or not.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm not really sure what the stats say (RAPM, Synergy, or otherwise), but I personally thought his defense was awful in 2012. I recall there being a thread where I posted something to the effect of "I hope Kobe makes 1st Team All-Defense just to piss people off" ... and sure enough, he did.

I thought Metta's defense was terrible as well, but certain "advanced" stats suggest that he was pretty awesome which makes me want to avoid them altogether.

These years were tough to gauge for me, mainly because outside Metta/Kobe, you had Pau/Bynum underperforming on D, and Fisher who was horrific. If I remember correctly, I think Kobe had great isolation defensive numbers, and his weakest numbers came off screens which makes me think of the Fisher dynamic and how bad he was at switching. Kobe was also on way too many PGs, which I think became an issue in his post-prime seasons. Against SGs he was still really good, but PGs became too quick for him. Same for Metta against quick players, i thought he was great when he could use his size.

[MistyMountain20]

How about a more rational discourse? He was a good defender in his prime, even elite. Then he became a good defender when he wanted to be (kind of like LeBron from last season), and for the last few seasons has been a one-way player. He clearly did not deserve some of the all-defense accolades, especially the ones in 11 and 12.

This is roughly how I always felt about it. Kobe stopped playing defense on a nightly basis when Shaq was traded, then picked it up again in 08, but continued to decline as he aged. Prime Kobe could play very good defense but didn't always choose to. I don't believe that the DRAPM lines up with that, but I am not really convinced by it suggesting that he never played impact defense.

This is where I'm at too. 2000-04 Kobe was an elite defender, 2005-2007 Kobe was below average mainly because of a lack of effort (and he could turn it on when he wanted too), and 2008-2010 Kobe was elite again. He probably deserved only 8 All D teams but are we seriously focusing more heavily on the defense he played in 3 seasons (or 6 counting 2011-2013) especially when he wasn't contending and in some cases was old?

I don't see any way Kobe from 2000-2010 is not an all D caliber player on a contender. Every one of those seasons he played great D in he was contending and all of those seasons he played bad was when he wasn't contending and had super weak rosters around him.

Well that's the thing, people here are saying that Kobe was not an impact defender and I get it, you have these advance stats that correlate well for certain players and it would be very easy if we had an objective standard we can measure everybody on. And I credit those for trying to find it and tracking down that information because that's not easy. But my issue comes when I know that if certain defensive measures were not taken with Kobe, the Lakers would not have fared as well. That's my issue, it's not just anecdotal or an"eye test", these things happened and are being glossed over, lessened or outright ignored.

[PaulieWal]

How about a more rational discourse? He was a good defender in his prime, even elite. Then he became a good defender when he wanted to be (kind of like LeBron from last season). He clearly did not deserve some of the all-defense accolades, especially the ones in 11 and 12. AUF brought up Wade but Wade was clearly much the better defender of the two in 11 and 12 and made Miami's defense elite with James and Bosh.

I am seeing more and more Kobe voters now say that the all-defense teams were legit, maybe as some sort of push back because he still hasn't been voted in?

1) I keep seeing people use "Kobe voters" as if posters who voted for Kobe since #9 haven't been voting for others throughout this project or something. Not sure why this is constantly implied.

2) Kobe's synergy stats in 2011/12 were good, why was his All-D not deserved? And before you bring up RAPM, remember that Wade is about the same there.

1) I am not trying to make it a Kobe vs. others thing. I would have personally voted for him around the 9-11 spot if I had a vote, ahead of KG and Dirk even after learning a great deal about KG. Appreciate his game more but still think Kobe was better. In fact, in my other reply to you I said I have KG and Dirk as equals and a bit behind Kobe.

2) I wasn't going to use RAPM but it was obvious that Kobe's defense slipped considerably after 2010. In 2011 he was playing on a bum knee and clearly wasn't putting any effort into defense. In 2012 he looked extremely slow athletically after the procedure in Germany. I know he was putting up offensive numbers but I remember a lot of people were saying this might be the end of Kobe because of how slow he looked. Then he came back in 13 looking as athletic as he had in a while.

I didn't know this was even a discussion to be honest. 11 and 12 were the last two years when Wade was still an elite 2 way player. In 11 and 12 him and James made the Miami defense pretty darn good with James playing at a DPOY level in 12. I didn't think there was an argument to be had about Wade being better than Kobe defensively those two years. I mean it wasn't even close IMO. I agree with semi-sentinent.

If you think Kobe deserved those all-defensive selections in 11 and 12 then all the more power to you but don't be surprised when most people discount them (even Kobe fans).

[An Unbiased Fan]

Spoiler:

Playing next to Kobe helped take the pressure off Pau, I already said that. But the degree to which it helped has been totally distorted by GC Pan using only a 27 game sample that Pau never reached again, and comparing it to another small sample (that is also not consistent with regular Pau). Pau's TS% in the 2 years before he got to LA (in 06 and 07) was equal to Pau's TS% 2 years after he got to LA (in 2010), and only moderately lower than 2009, so it's obvious the 27 game sample is inappropriate to use.

Career ORTG for Pau from 05-11:
05 - 112
06 - 111
07 - 115
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126
10 - 120
11 - 123

There is a clear increase once he gets to LA.

You stopping at 2011 made me curious, so I went and looked up Pau's ORTG in 2012 - 2014. And it brings up a Devil's advocate question: how much of that increase once he gets to LAL should be attributed to Phil Jackson and the triangle offense? Because if you put a bit more detail and continue your chart of Pau''s ORTGs through the years:

05 - 112 Memphis
06 - 111 Memphis
07 - 115 Memphis
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
10 - 120 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
11 - 123 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
12 - 112 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil
13 - 107 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil and Pau injuries
14 - 102 Lakers with no Kobe, no Phil and Pau Injuries

It's always difficult to tease out patterns, but it sure looks to me that Phil Jackson and the Triangle offense were more the limiting factor for Pau's huge efficiency bump than Kobe was. In 2012 Kobe and Pau were both present and healthy enough to play almost every game, but Phil was gone and Pau's efficiency fell all the way back to the level that it used to be in Memphis.

Plus, this is a narrative that makes some sense, right? Pau was seemingly born to play in the Triangle with his passing ability and comfort making decisions. To an extent, Odom was too for similar reasons. And the Triangle has to-date proven to be the best offense for harnessing mega-high scoring SGs into a strong team offense.

I'm not saying having a talented teammate like Kobe wasn't helpful to Pau's efficiency...I'd think that it may have played a benefit as well. But at a first pass, it certainly looks like the sea-change difference was more about Pau getting integrated into the Triangle.

Pau wasn't the same after the debacle with his GF in 2011, and 2012 was the lockout year where efficiency took a tumble league-wide. the 2-man game he had with Kobe was the big reason for his increased efficiency in LA, not the Tri. Notice, the jump is immediate(before Pau even learned the Tri).

[drza]

Would anyone else care to weigh in on Dirk? In my comp with Kobe I currently have them essentially tied. I'd love to hear some other opinions.

I'm a fan of Dirk's, but don't see how its tied when Kobe is better offensively, and defensively than him. This again goes back to the Kobe vs Bird comparison where I'm not sure how Bird was better either.

Dirk's one real advantage is a higher TS%, but that came in lower volume. Kobe is the superior playmaker, and Dirk has never really impressed me in that regard. Defensively, Dirk was not good until Avery came there. He was decent in his prime, but again, not Kobe's level on that side of the court. Pre-Prime/Prime/Post-Prime, again Kobe has the advantage.

I can respect that you might have that opinion. But for clarity sake, my "tied" reference was the outcome of that overly long post that I made comparing Dirk and Kobe on a bunch of different levels. Whether it was looking at the box score data, the qualitative-type descriptions, the +/- data or focusing more on the playoffs I really wasn't seeing a lot of separation in either direction. Pretty much every part of the comparison, as far as I could tell, essentially came down to a pick 'em on preference. That's why I asked for more in depth opinions comparing the two. I know that you might feel that Kobe was better on offense and defense, but that isn't helping me so much in my decision. I need to know why you feel that way, specifically comparing Kobe with Dirk in a way that shows me that Kobe is clearly better.

[Notanoob]

Okay, so I'll go ahead and vote for Dirk Werner Nowitzki.

I'm actually surprised (pretty sure Chuck feels the same way) that I voted for KG over Dirk, but at this point, I think Nowitzki's case is as good as anyone's. He actually plays BETTER in the playoffs than in the regular season, when you look at his career numbers (at least as good), which has to count for something, especially considering how difficult his competition was in the 2000s Western conference. His supporting casts were good, but not great, and he was always the main focal point of opposing gameplans, yet he was able to handle it extremely well (outside of a few bad series, but who didn't have a bad playoff series in his career?). His scoring average goes up in the postseason (22.5 to 25.6), on basically the same efficiency, about 58% TS, as does his rebounding (8.1 to 10.1). I truly believe that he's probably one of the 10 best playoff performers in NBA history. He looks pretty good in RAPM, and to me, the most valuable thing that it indicates is the fact that his defense was more or less a positive for almost his entire career. It means that he basically didn't have any weaknesses. He's not particularly great in a lot of aspects (unlike KG), but he's definitely an elite scorer and overall offensive player, too (not a great passer, but takes outstanding care of the ball and makes simple, fundamentally sound passes, doesn't risk turning the ball over).

I admit that it came down to Kobe vs Dirk for me, and with Nowitzki's longevity not being far off Bryant's at this point, and him apparently being a better teammate, better for team chemistry, I'm going with Dirk in a close decision.

If that's the case, I'd like you to reconsider your vote for West.

He was a more efficient player when you adjust for era, and considering his reputation as a shooter I would not worry how he'd translate.

Pace adjusted, Kobe has the volume advantage, but who's to say that West couldn't handle a higher volume? Imagine if Baylor wasn't taking more shots than him all the time during his prime.

He was the better playmaker, considering that he could actually play PG.

He was likely a better defender, given his rep, and check his averages in his last season- 2.6 steals and .7 blocks. Last time Kobe got that many BPG was his 05 season, and Kobe was half West's age at that point! Kobe's never gotten 2.6spg either. I know that using these stats to approximate defense is generally a pretty poor idea, but for a guard to be picking up those kinds of stats at his age is astounding.

The longevity game isn't insurmountable- West played 14 seasons and was an all-star every year, a very good player, until his last, but he didn't start playing in the NBA until he was 22, at which point Kobe was a 4 year veteran.

He raised his game in the playoffs regularly, excelling against the Celtic's dynasty defense, while Kobe struggled sometimes facing great defenses in the playoffs.

[An Unbiased Fan]

How about a more rational discourse? He was a good defender in his prime, even elite. Then he became a good defender when he wanted to be (kind of like LeBron from last season). He clearly did not deserve some of the all-defense accolades, especially the ones in 11 and 12. AUF brought up Wade but Wade was clearly much the better defender of the two in 11 and 12 and made Miami's defense elite with James and Bosh.

I am seeing more and more Kobe voters now say that the all-defense teams were legit, maybe as some sort of push back because he still hasn't been voted in?

1) I keep seeing people use "Kobe voters" as if posters who voted for Kobe since #9 haven't been voting for others throughout this project or something. Not sure why this is constantly implied.

2) Kobe's synergy stats in 2011/12 were good, why was his All-D not deserved? And before you bring up RAPM, remember that Wade is about the same there.

1) I am not trying to make it a Kobe vs. others thing. I would have personally voted for him around the 9-11 spot if I had a vote, ahead of KG and Dirk even after learning a great deal about KG. Appreciate his game more but still think Kobe was better. In fact, in my other reply to you I said I have KG and Dirk as equals and a bit behind Kobe.

2) I wasn't going to use RAPM but it was obvious that Kobe's defense slipped considerably after 2010. In 2011 he was playing on a bum knee and clearly wasn't putting any effort into defense. In 2012 he looked extremely slow athletically after the procedure in Germany. I know he was putting up offensive numbers but I remember a lot of people were saying this might be the end of Kobe because of how slow he looked. Then he came back in 13 looking as athletic as he had in a while.

I didn't know this was even a discussion to be honest. 11 and 12 were the last two years when Wade was still an elite 2 way player. In 11 and 12 him and James made the Miami defense pretty darn good with James playing at a DPOY level in 12. I didn't think there was an argument to be had about Wade being better than Kobe defensively those two years. I mean it wasn't even close IMO. I agree with semi-sentinent.

If you think Kobe deserved those all-defensive selections in 11 and 12 then all the more power to you but don't be surprised when most people discount them (even Kobe fans).

Ok, but you just said, "In 11 and 12 him and James made the Miami defense pretty darn good with James playing at a DPOY level in 12." I fully agree Lebron was the better defender those years. What I don't see is Wade being better simply because he was on Miami next to Bron. Kobe's iso defense numbers were great. I'm not saying he was near prime level on D, or that i would ahve had a problem if he didnt' even make the 11/12 teams. I think guys like T.Allen, Thabo were hurt by mpg, so Kobe got in. Alot of the other guards out there are all offense these days, so 2-way players are becoming scarce. its just the way things worked out those years.

[E-Balla]

Spoiler:

Playing next to Kobe helped take the pressure off Pau, I already said that. But the degree to which it helped has been totally distorted by GC Pan using only a 27 game sample that Pau never reached again, and comparing it to another small sample (that is also not consistent with regular Pau). Pau's TS% in the 2 years before he got to LA (in 06 and 07) was equal to Pau's TS% 2 years after he got to LA (in 2010), and only moderately lower than 2009, so it's obvious the 27 game sample is inappropriate to use.

Career ORTG for Pau from 05-11:
05 - 112
06 - 111
07 - 115
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126
10 - 120
11 - 123

There is a clear increase once he gets to LA.

You stopping at 2011 made me curious, so I went and looked up Pau's ORTG in 2012 - 2014. And it brings up a Devil's advocate question: how much of that increase once he gets to LAL should be attributed to Phil Jackson and the triangle offense? Because if you put a bit more detail and continue your chart of Pau''s ORTGs through the years:

05 - 112 Memphis
06 - 111 Memphis
07 - 115 Memphis
08 Memphis - 114
08 Lakers - 128
09 - 126 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
10 - 120 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
11 - 123 Lakers with Kobe and Phil
12 - 112 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil
13 - 107 Lakers with Kobe but no Phil and Pau injuries
14 - 102 Lakers with no Kobe, no Phil and Pau Injuries

It's always difficult to tease out patterns, but it sure looks to me that Phil Jackson and the Triangle offense were more the limiting factor for Pau's huge efficiency bump than Kobe was. In 2012 Kobe and Pau were both present and healthy enough to play almost every game, but Phil was gone and Pau's efficiency fell all the way back to the level that it used to be in Memphis.

Plus, this is a narrative that makes some sense, right? Pau was seemingly born to play in the Triangle with his passing ability and comfort making decisions. To an extent, Odom was too for similar reasons. And the Triangle has to-date proven to be the best offense for harnessing mega-high scoring SGs into a strong team offense.

I'm not saying having a talented teammate like Kobe wasn't helpful to Pau's efficiency...I'd think that it may have played a benefit as well. But at a first pass, it certainly looks like the sea-change difference was more about Pau getting integrated into the Triangle.

Pau was washed up by then. After his performance in the 2011 playoffs everyone knew it and he never played at the level he did before (also Pau was injured most of 2012 too). He shot 42% from the field in the 2011 playoffs and there were even rumors that he was playing bad because either Shannon Brown slept with his girlfriend or Vanessa Bryant convinced her to leave Pau. Pau said it wasn't true and that he had tired legs (I totally believe him) but it's clear he didn't fall off gracefully but instead he hit his post prime like a brick wall.

Now I will say the triangle helped too (I made a note to say Kobe and Phil helped him elevate his game) but Kobe was the main playmaker in that offense and he helped Pau a lot. Pau fell off before Phil left (in the playoffs) and Kobe might not have been such a great teammate outside the triangle but just like the only other SG to get selected (and the only other SG in contention) he played in a great offensive system where they moved the ball (Jerry West and the Princeton offense/MJ and the Triangle being the other 2). If I didn't hold it against Jordan and I'm not going to hold it against West I won't hold it against Kobe.

A quick trip to the NBA stats page can fix this (this uses NBA.com's horrid pace calculation so his efficiency will be lower than it should be):

Pau with Kobe 2009: 114.1 ORTG
Pau without Kobe: 100.7 ORTG

Pau with Kobe 2010: 109.7 ORTG
Pau without Kobe: 103.8 ORTG

Pau with Kobe 2011: 111.3 ORG
Pau without Kobe: 104.1 ORTG

Pau ORTG in 2007: 106.5
Pau ORTG in last full season with Memphis (full meaning he played at least 2500 minutes so 2006): 104.3 ORTG

Basically without Kobe on the floor Pau was regular old Memphis Pau. I checked for Kobe too and he didn't get any more efficient with Pau out there with him fwiw.

[RebelWithACause]

I think some of those numbers might be skewed (superficially) in Barkley's favour weren't league average Ortgs and TS% generally higher during his career (obviously it changes year to year).

Initially I was going to include the difference in league average, but I couldn't find a website that could simplify it for me versus me going through BBR and doing it year by year for both players. Since I don't have hours to do that, I dropped it. It's my understanding that the first parts of Dirk's career would be dealing with a lower league average than Barkley (around 99-03 or so) but then have it go higher...I have no idea if that is reasonable or not.

Why did you post those numbers in the first place, if you know your information is incomplete?

Barkley during his 15 years: league average TS 53.5 % TS
Dirk during his 15 years: league average TS 53.0 % TS

ORTG difference should be about 1 point if going by league average.

Some other questions regarding you post?
Why do you select a few advanced metrics, but leave out others such as FTR, USG etc..
Why no stats to show volume?

[Jim Naismith]

Statistical peaks of various big men

Code: Select all

Player             Season   ORB   DRB    TRB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV    PTS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Duncan        2001-02   3.3   9.4   12.7   3.7   0.7   2.5   3.2   25.5
Kevin Garnett     2003-04   3.0  10.9   13.9   5.0   1.5   2.2   2.6   24.2
Karl Malone       1989-90   2.8   8.3   11.1   2.8   1.5   0.6   3.7   31.0
Moses Malone      1981-82   6.9   7.8   14.7   1.8   0.9   1.5   3.6   31.1
Shaquille O'Neal  1999-00   4.3   9.4   13.6   3.8   0.5   3.0   2.8   29.7
David Robinson    1993-94   3.0   7.7   10.7   4.8   1.7   3.3   3.2   29.8

[drza]

I wonder if we're beginning to overlook defense in favor of offense at this point in the project. A couple of questions:

Did David Robinson's defense suffer in the playoffs?

Was David Robinson's offense in the playoffs any worse than Bill Russell's?

Assuming the answer to both these questions is no, what specifically did Russell provide that was so much better than Robinson that Russell could be voted in at #3 and Robinson will likely not be in the top 15?

The underlined is the biggest unanswered question that I still have with Robinson. I alluded to it in that marathon post. I'd love to see some type of breakdown of the offenses that the Spurs faced in the postseason, their expected values and their actual performance against Robinson's Spurs. That's not necessarily rigorous because team performance isn't nearly as granular as I'd like...I wish we had a way to be more specific to Robinson himself.

The reason that this is on my mind is that I remember once, years ago, trying to figure out how much Robinson may have been contributing when his scoring wasn't working. And I think I did a quick pass of maybe 1994...whatever year his shooting was struggling the most. Anyway, in that series it seems like both Karl Malone individually and the Jazz team as a whole performed better offensively than I would have expected which made me question whether or not Robinson may have been struggling on defense as well as offense in that particular postseason. What I need to see (and hopefully I'll have time to do) is whether a) the defensive performance really was that bad in that particular year and b) whether that type of postseason defensive slip was habitual or just a fluke thing.

[FJS]

As for Karl Malone yeah he does have longevity on Moses but he wasn't the playoff performer Moses was and has the lesser peak imo. Again lets not just dismiss 3 mvps and FMVP because we feel like it. I mean he did sweep Kareem and Magic in the finals, Karl Malone had 2 chances at a ring an failed both times and miserably at that.

Miserably?

In 97 they lost by 2 1st game, by 2 games 5 and by 4 game 6.
In 98 they lost by 5 game 2, by 4 game 4 and by 1 game 6.

I don't think this is near to fail miserably.

I meant as far as his performance, he had a 49 TS% in the 97' finals. That's garbage efficiency for anyone especially a big man.

Maybe he had not the luck to play with two 20ppg scorers like Moses did with andrew toney and dr j. This help to have less focused defenses in him.
Still he did fairly well vs hakeem and barkley, shaq and campbell or duncan and Robinson in 97 and 98.

[colts18]

Pau wasn't the same after the debacle with his GF in 2011, and 2012 was the lockout year where efficiency took a tumble league-wide. the 2-man game he had with Kobe was the big reason for his increased efficiency in LA, not the Tri. Notice, the jump is immediate(before Pau even learned the Tri).

The 2 man game had little to do with Gasol's efficiency bump.


Here are Pau's numbers during the 09 and 10 seasons with and without Kobe on the court (per 36 minutes):

With: 18-10-3, .606 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .609 TS%

He was simply a better player (in a better system). Nothing to do with 2 man game.

[PaulieWal]

Ok, but you just said, "In 11 and 12 him and James made the Miami defense pretty darn good with James playing at a DPOY level in 12." I fully agree Lebron was the better defender those years. What I don't see is Wade being better simply because he was on Miami next to Bron. Kobe's iso defense numbers were great. I'm not saying he was near prime level on D, or that i would ahve had a problem if he didnt' even make the 11/12 teams. I think guys like T.Allen, Thabo were hurt by mpg, so Kobe got in. Alot of the other guards out there are all offense these days, so 2-way players are becoming scarce. its just the way things worked out those years.

There was no implication anywhere that Wade was simply better because he was playing next to LeBron. The point was that Wade and James made the Miami defense elite in 11 and 12. Bosh hadn't become the "smallball" center for Miami yet and Miami relied on the defensive wing pressure of Wade and James. The larger point was that Wade was clearly the better defender in 11 and 12 and I don't think it was close when compared to Kobe.

[Notanoob]

I wonder if we're beginning to overlook defense in favor of offense at this point in the project. A couple of questions:

Did David Robinson's defense suffer in the playoffs?

Was David Robinson's offense in the playoffs any worse than Bill Russell's?

Assuming the answer to both these questions is no, what specifically did Russell provide that was so much better than Robinson that Russell could be voted in at #3 and Robinson will likely not be in the top 15?

For the record, I believed that Robinson was possibly a better player than Russel was. I believe that Russel got a boost for dominating his era the way he did.

[magicmerl]

Why would coaches care about reputation? They gameplan around players on a nightly basis, and watch more game film than any of us. Why hasn't Wade gotten "rep" votes? Why haven't other great defenders gotten "rep" votes?

At the time of the award balloting what most coaches care about is doing their actual job (winning games) so I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of them mail it in with safe picks that 'everybody knows'. All picking an unconventional view could do is create more work in terms of having to answer questions from reporters about why they picked a less mainstream option.

[E-Balla]

Pau wasn't the same after the debacle with his GF in 2011, and 2012 was the lockout year where efficiency took a tumble league-wide. the 2-man game he had with Kobe was the big reason for his increased efficiency in LA, not the Tri. Notice, the jump is immediate(before Pau even learned the Tri).

The 2 man game had little to do with Gasol's efficiency bump.


Here are Pau's numbers during the 09 and 10 seasons with and without Kobe on the court (per 36 minutes):

With: 18-10-3, .606 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .609 TS%

He was simply a better player (in a better system). Nothing to do with 2 man game.

Check the turnovers. Pau coughed the ball up a lot more without kobe on the floor. I posted his ORTG with and without Kobe from 09-11 earlier and his ORTG increase is almost entirely due to Kobe according to those numbers (I say it's 80% Kobe 20% triangle because Kobe without the triangle isn't as dynamic a playmaker).

[Reservoirdawgs]

Why did you post those numbers in the first place, if you know your information is incomplete?

Barkley during his 15 years: league average TS 53.5 % TS
Dirk during his 15 years: league average TS 53.0 % TS

ORTG difference should be about 1 point if going by league average.

Some other questions regarding you post?
Why do you select a few advanced metrics, but leave out others such as FTR, USG etc..
Why no stats to show volume?

Easy...because I had already done the work of going through their data on BBR and I thought that I could easily find the league average on BBR or another site. It wasn't until I had already done the meat of the post and was searching for league average that I realized I couldn't find a way to reasonably do it without it taking hours. Fortunately, someone was able to provide the numbers that I needed.

I typically avoid showing volume stats like PPG, AST, rebounds, etc because by themselves they are somewhat meaningless and you need a LOT of context to explain it. Could I have done it since I was providing advanced stats as some context? Sure, it just would have meant putting in a little more time than I had (I'm at work and my boss was hovering around my office, so I had to focus my attention on my audit). It's the same with why I showed some advanced metrics but left out some others. Since I was having to go from my spreadsheet to RealGM and back to the spreadsheet, I chose the metrics that I believe were the most important in the interest of time. The USG% was almost the same for both players so I didn't see any reason to put that in as well.