International Hoops thread

[Kanyewest]

Wall's a better choice for team USA than Irving or Lillard. Wall actually shot far better on catch and shoot threes than Irving this year. And he shot for a similar number of made threes at a similar percentage overall.

He's a world's better defender and passer than Irving and he can come off the bench and push the tempo better than Irving. The defense alone should be why Wall would make it over Irving. Wall can credibly guard 2s in line ups with Curry and Irving can't. And if they want to full court press, Wall is a much better option than Irving.

I gotta admit, if I was coaching the US team in international play, I'd probably play Curry and Irving a lot together. They'll give up some, but offensively - how do you stop them? They shoot 3's like they're layups, and they both pass and handle well. Their presence opens up the middle for Davis and all the forwards. And international guards aren't generally going to take advantage of their lack of strength.

Irving didn't shoot better than Wall last year though. The only part of the floor Irving was better from was 3-10 feet.

Wall actually shot way better than Irving in catch and shoot threes too. Wall shot above 40 % on those. If you're looking for someone to be able to play off the ball as a 3 pt shooter, Wall can handle it. And he's a better slasher than Irving. And a better defender. And a better passer. And he's stronger and more durable.

There is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall except that Irving played for Coach K at Duke. So again, there is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall.

Good point on Irving's 3 point percentages. I didn't realize that they had dropped in that they were comparable to Wall (36% vs 35%)- although it looks like Irving still put up better 3 point percentages. I wonder how much career numbers sway the decision.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm hearing some rumors that mason plumlee is going to make the team over demarcus cousins. Not surprising....plumlee plays a better team oriented game than the selfish cousins.

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I am starting a rumor that if Mason Plumlee makes the team over DeMarcus Cousins it is because Plumlee played for Coach K at Duke.
Laettner made the Dream Team over Shaq but that was political, too.

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[stevemcqueen1]

I gotta admit, if I was coaching the US team in international play, I'd probably play Curry and Irving a lot together. They'll give up some, but offensively - how do you stop them? They shoot 3's like they're layups, and they both pass and handle well. Their presence opens up the middle for Davis and all the forwards. And international guards aren't generally going to take advantage of their lack of strength.

Irving didn't shoot better than Wall last year though. The only part of the floor Irving was better from was 3-10 feet.

Wall actually shot way better than Irving in catch and shoot threes too. Wall shot above 40 % on those. If you're looking for someone to be able to play off the ball as a 3 pt shooter, Wall can handle it. And he's a better slasher than Irving. And a better defender. And a better passer. And he's stronger and more durable.

There is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall except that Irving played for Coach K at Duke. So again, there is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall.

Good point on Irving's 3 point percentages. I didn't realize that they had dropped in that they were comparable to Wall (36% vs 35%)- although it looks like Irving still put up better 3 point percentages. I wonder how much career numbers sway the decision.

Irving is a pull up jump shooter. Wall doesn't really take pull up threes, mostly just catch and shoot from the wing. Irving has a reputation as a much better jump shooter based off that pull up jumper IMO. Plus he's got smooth, easy form whereas Wall has been inconsistent in his form and release, taking off balance jumpers when he doesn't have to etc.

But those reputations are misleading because the skill team USA is going to be looking for out of their PG is not dribble pull up jumpers. The PGs are going to be secondary scoring options and set up men for the wings and forwards, who are going to be our finishers. When they take threes, it will probably be in catch and shoot situations.

That's what hurts Irving IMO. Catch and shoot is a hole in his arsenal, and it's why I think Colangelo classified him as a pure point. And as Schuhmann pointed out, DeRozan and Hayward didn't shoot well in catch and shoot situations either--why Korver might make it over them even though he's nowhere near as good as them.

Plus you can't totally rely on Derrick Rose. Who is the better option to replicate Rose's role between Wall and Irving?

IMO, Irving is basically a poor man's Curry, lacking the off ball game and elite shooting touch that allows Curry to shift between both guard spots.

[stevemcqueen1]

I'm hearing some rumors that mason plumlee is going to make the team over demarcus cousins. Not surprising....plumlee plays a better team oriented game than the selfish cousins.

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I am starting a rumor that if Mason Plumlee makes the team over DeMarcus Cousins it is because Plumlee played for Coach K at Duke.
Laettner made the Dream Team over Shaq but that was political, too.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Yeah, it'd seem like he made it because he's one of Coach K's guys.

He wouldn't just be making it over Cousins either. It'd be over Drummond too. I get that Plumlee is a different type big than Cousins. But what exactly can Plumlee do that Drummond can't do better?

And besides, I think it'd be silly to rule out Cousins just because he's different than Davis and not a jet in the open floor. Fact is, we might need a low post scorer in some games. It's not going to be all jumpers and fast breaks. Cousins is also a much better rebounder and would help us control the glass more. And we're also going to want a body like Cousins's or Drummond's against teams like Brazil or Spain.

I would be shocked if Plumlee made the team over Cousins or Drummond. Faried and Millsap too. All of them would be better options IMO.

[Kanyewest]

This article states the argument for Plumlee over Cousins.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/p ... ut-cousins

It also seems that Drummond is only an average rim protector. I would categorize Milsap and Faried as 4s who aren't going to be good rim protectors.

[Wizardspride]

Kyrie's fans are grasping.....


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1338742&start=160

[Ruzious]

Irving didn't shoot better than Wall last year though. The only part of the floor Irving was better from was 3-10 feet.

Wall actually shot way better than Irving in catch and shoot threes too. Wall shot above 40 % on those. If you're looking for someone to be able to play off the ball as a 3 pt shooter, Wall can handle it. And he's a better slasher than Irving. And a better defender. And a better passer. And he's stronger and more durable.

There is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall except that Irving played for Coach K at Duke. So again, there is really no good reason to take Irving over Wall.

Good point on Irving's 3 point percentages. I didn't realize that they had dropped in that they were comparable to Wall (36% vs 35%)- although it looks like Irving still put up better 3 point percentages. I wonder how much career numbers sway the decision.

Irving is a pull up jump shooter. Wall doesn't really take pull up threes, mostly just catch and shoot from the wing. Irving has a reputation as a much better jump shooter based off that pull up jumper IMO. Plus he's got smooth, easy form whereas Wall has been inconsistent in his form and release, taking off balance jumpers when he doesn't have to etc.

But those reputations are misleading because the skill team USA is going to be looking for out of their PG is not dribble pull up jumpers. The PGs are going to be secondary scoring options and set up men for the wings and forwards, who are going to be our finishers. When they take threes, it will probably be in catch and shoot situations.

That's what hurts Irving IMO. Catch and shoot is a hole in his arsenal, and it's why I think Colangelo classified him as a pure point. And as Schuhmann pointed out, DeRozan and Hayward didn't shoot well in catch and shoot situations either--why Korver might make it over them even though he's nowhere near as good as them.

Plus you can't totally rely on Derrick Rose. Who is the better option to replicate Rose's role between Wall and Irving?

IMO, Irving is basically a poor man's Curry, lacking the off ball game and elite shooting touch that allows Curry to shift between both guard spots.

Yes, Irving is a lot like Curry. I'm inclined to give Irving a pass for last season because he played with an inept organization (which might win the NBA Championship next season, but that's another story) that imploded. Remember, someone who started his career as impressively as Irving did is most likely going to end up more than good. Also, he's more hybrid guard than point guard, and Cleve basically had nobody "ept" enough to share the play-making duties - or even pass adequately. If he doesn't dramatically improve his stats this season, I'll eat my words.

[stevemcqueen1]

Yes, Irving is a lot like Curry. I'm inclined to give Irving a pass for last season because he played with an inept organization (which might win the NBA Championship next season, but that's another story) that imploded. Remember, someone who started his career as impressively as Irving did is most likely going to end up more than good. Also, he's more hybrid guard than point guard, and Cleve basically had nobody "ept" enough to share the play-making duties - or even pass adequately. If he doesn't dramatically improve his stats this season, I'll eat my words.

Irving's impressive rookie season is the benchmark of his good play I guess since he's gotten worse each year since.

Irving's problems stem not just from his situation, but his individual weaknesses too. Which is an acknowledgement that he's a lesser player than Wall IMO. HE'S not a good passer and he's supposed to be the PG and the one who makes everyone else better. If not him, then who is going to do it? Better PGs don't need LeBron James to come in and make their teams work. HE'S the one who is an awful defensive player, one of the worst in the league. HE'S the one who is supposed to be the team leader and foundation piece and he's killed at least one, maybe two coaches and threatened to leave and feuded with Dion Waiters.

I don't buy the bad teammates excuse for Irving without acknowledging Wall's situation as well. Wall didn't play with any other offensive creators his first three seasons. ****, he didn't really have a good one to play with last year when the team was actually good. He did it all. And ****, prior to the trade for Nene, I'm not sure Wall played with a single other player that could even be a regular starter for another team. Come to think of it, Wall didn't play with another starting caliber NBA player before Nene, because no one else on those teams ended up being a starter for us or anywhere else.

Wall is just better than Irving. In almost every way that matters. He deserves to make Team USA over Irving because he's better. It surprises and frustrates me when people equate Irving with Wall. Or worse, actually think he's better.

[Induveca]

Let's see what happens. Wall has the Cousins synergy, Irving has synergy with Coach K. Which one wins? No clue.

Gotta love speculation.

[stevemcqueen1]

Wall was awful in the first half. No rhythm with anyone except DeRozan whatsoever. The coaches didn't do him any favors putting him with Hayward, and two guys who don't belong on the floor with the rest of the camp in Korver and Plumlee. Plumlee has been awful trying to run PnRs with Wall. And Korver/Hayward have no chemistry with Wall yet.

But Wall is hurting himself bad with some brain dead turnovers. And Lillard is scoring on him. Lillard outplayed Wall pretty bad and right now, looks like he's in the lead for that third PG spot behind Rose and Curry. Lillard looks good.

Beal looks good too. I don't know if he's been better than DeRozan and Thompson, but he's held his own.

[Kanyewest]

Wall was awful in the first half. No rhythm with anyone except DeRozan whatsoever. The coaches didn't do him any favors putting him with Hayward, and two guys who don't belong on the floor with the rest of the camp in Korver and Plumlee. Plumlee has been awful trying to run PnRs with Wall. And Korver/Hayward have no chemistry with Wall yet.

But Wall is hurting himself bad with some brain dead turnovers. And Lillard is scoring on him. Lillard outplayed Wall pretty bad and right now, looks like he's in the lead for that third PG spot behind Rose and Curry. Lillard looks good.

Beal looks good too. I don't know if he's been better than DeRozan and Thompson, but he's held his own.

Agreed 100%. Wall's team is awful (in comparison to the other team) but some of those turnovers were terrible. Just based on this game so far, Wall doesn't deserve to make it. Although Irving hasn't done much either.

[Induveca]

Wall playing like complete garbage. Irving has the spot easily. Ironically Wall is just playing too slow, telegraphing everything.

[Illmatic12]

Wall played himself out of a spot, no question. He just looks uncomfortable out there

Beal has been good, I feel like he's gonna draw a lot more FTs this season. Playing solid D also

[stevemcqueen1]

Wall playing like complete garbage. Irving has the spot easily. Ironically Wall is just playing too slow, telegraphing everything.

Irving? He hasn't done much either. Lillard was the one who stood out to me.

[doclinkin]

Wall looking thick, slow, no energy, no defense. Dame Lillard is making the case for that spot I think. Tough to beat the Dukie Irving, but he's making things happen.

Beal too looks unremarkable, a nice shot or play here and there, but nothing stand-out.

[Illmatic12]

So apparently Drew Gooden is playing for Finland in the WC

[Induveca]

Wall playing like complete garbage. Irving has the spot easily. Ironically Wall is just playing too slow, telegraphing everything.

Irving? He hasn't done much either. Lillard was the one who stood out to me.

Irving has just looked far more comfortable....and already has some USA experience and the full attention of Coach K.

Can't see him picking Lillard over Irving.

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[stevemcqueen1]

Wall looked a lot better in the third quarter. Consequently, so did Plumlee, who thoroughly outplayed Anthony Davis.

Davis has sucked so far. Wall set him up for three bunnies and he **** each of them up. The oop that he stopped short on and Plumlee caught. And two drives that pulled Davis's man and he just butter fingered the passes.

Davis has been our worst big man tonight. We need to take Cousins and Faried and we need to consider taking a fourth big IMO.

[stevemcqueen1]

Wall looking thick, slow, no energy, no defense. Dame Lillard is making the case for that spot I think. Tough to beat the Dukie Irving, but he's making things happen.

Beal too looks unremarkable, a nice shot or play here and there, but nothing stand-out.

Wall played well in the third quarter with that line, but there are still communication issues. On two Irving drives Plumlee rotated over to cover him and left Wall on Cousins. The problem is Wall has no shot at keeping Cousins off the glass and Cousins got the offensive rebound both times.

But he's been full court pressing and he did keep Kyrie in check and come up with a steal. There were two more spots where I thought he could have gotten a steal if he'd sold out for them. And he should have.

In general, he did his job that quarter. He pushed the tempo and made stuff happen for his big men and Curry, they just missed the opportunities. That can get ironed out. He looked like a PG with that line up.

Beal has played very well. He's been the two guard you want and created some baskets. Problem for him is that DeRozan and Klay Thompson looked REALLY good.

[stevemcqueen1]

Paul George has been the worst player on the floor tonight.