RealGM Top 100 List #13

Baller2014 · Post #341 » by **Baller2014** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:29 pm

I considered that prior to the run off, but ultimately I chose to stick with Malone.

Post #342 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:29 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Kobe has 10/24 votes which is not a majority so it looks like a runoff between Kobe Bryant and Karl Malone

I need to pay more attention to these deadlines. I want to get as much info as I can out of the threads before voting.

Run-off Vote: Kobe Bean Bryant

It's tough because Malone was so good for so long. Really really good. And if we ignore team results he would already be off the board imo. Both guys stand out among those last for their ability to amass RS stats. For the grief he gets as a PS performer, he stacks up pretty well next to Kobe.

But at some point we have to look at what Kobe was able to accomplish as a guard. Key supporting player on 3 titles, 2 titles as the best player, massive RS scoring numbers. Showcased an ability to be a stopper when he was young. Was a playmaker for much of his career playing with Fisher as his primary PG. Fierce competitor. Hard worker. He's polarizing and so we can get awfully focused on his flaws and we miss all the things he does really well.

Jim Naismith · Post #343 » by **Jim Naismith** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:33 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:Im not saying you are wrong about Moses maybe being the better player, but I don't think this particular argument is very convincing. The sample size is one series apiece and you chose the worst series of Admiral's career(at least from a narrative standpoint). Can you maybe find some more examples where you think Admiral was subpar defensively?

Besides Hakeem, I can't think of any elite playoff center whom Robinson defended before Duncan's arrival.

Post #344 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:34 pm

Baller2014 wrote:This will be interesting, because there were a lot of voters who didn't get in to vote in time, but who posted in the last 2 threads, so we're likely to see close to 35-40 people end up voting than 24. I think some of the Jerry West/Dr J/Dirk supporters made a big mistake not voting in time. They might have been an even more favourable run off choice here.

What does this even mean?

Baller2014 · Post #345 » by **Baller2014** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:35 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
Kobe has 10/24 votes which is not a majority so it looks like a runoff between Kobe Bryant and Karl Malone

I need to pay more attention to these deadlines. I want to get as much info as I can out of the threads before voting.

Technically you had another 30 mins till 5pm, so a bit unlucky there.

I post a count after 5PM Eastern Time. For reference, it is now 7:21 here. penbeast0

Post #346 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:36 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Chuck Texas wrote:Im not saying you are wrong about Moses maybe being the better player, but I don't think this particular argument is very convincing. The sample size is one series apiece and you chose the worst series of Admiral's career(at least from a narrative standpoint). Can you maybe find some more examples where you think Admiral was subpar defensively?

Beside Hakeem, I can't think of any elite playoff center whom Robinson defended before Duncan's arrival.

This was my point. He doesnt have to play an elite playoff center to have massive defensive impact. His numbers are absolutely undeniable in this regard in the RS, so unless you can show specifically differently, it seems like he probably did the same in the playoffs.

A center's defensive value isn't limited to man defense against another center.

Baller2014 · Post #347 » by **Baller2014** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:36 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
Baller2014 wrote:This will be interesting, because there were a lot of voters who didn't get in to vote in time, but who posted in the last 2 threads, so we're likely to see close to 35-40 people end up voting than 24. I think some of the Jerry West/Dr J/Dirk supporters made a big mistake not voting in time. They might have been an even more favourable run off choice here.

What does this even mean?

That candidate might have had a good chance of winning, if only their supporters had voted for them. For instance, I saw John post how he wanted to vote for Dr J at this spot, but he didn't because he "didn't think he'd win". In fact, if he and a few of the Dr J fans had voted for him here, he might well have won.

Post #348 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:38 pm

so what? I thought we all agreed the project would be better served without strategic voting or attempts at voter manipulation. Or did I imagine that?

Jim Naismith · Post #349 » by **Jim Naismith** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:41 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Chuck Texas wrote:Im not saying you are wrong about Moses maybe being the better player, but I don't think this particular argument is very convincing. The sample size is one series apiece and you chose the worst series of Admiral's career(at least from a narrative standpoint). Can you maybe find some more examples where you think Admiral was subpar defensively?

Beside Hakeem, I can't think of any elite playoff center whom Robinson defended before Duncan's arrival.

This was my point. He doesnt have to play an elite playoff center to have massive defensive impact. His numbers are absolutely undeniable in this regard in the RS, so unless you can show specifically differently, it seems like he probably did the same in the playoffs.

A center's defensive value isn't limited to man defense against another center.

I'm not sure if Robinson was effective in limiting Karl Malone in the 1994 and 1996 series.

Baller2014 · Post #350 » by **Baller2014** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:45 pm

Chuck Texas wrote:so what? I thought we all agreed the project would be better served without strategic voting or attempts at voter manipulation. Or did I imagine that?

Quite so. Which is why I didn't switch my vote, even though (as Drza pointed out) it would have given Dr J (the guy I was torn over picking here) arguably a better chance to win than Malone.

Interestingly, John would probably have been better served voting the way his heart felt, not strategically.

I'm not sure I like Karl Malone's chances here, but I guess I'll get some more data ready for people to read.

Basically, I think people should pick Karl Malone for the following reasons:
1) His peak is better:
Malone's peak season in 1992:
Regular season- 28ppg, 11.2rpg, 3apg, 599. TS%
Playoffs (over 16 games) 29-11-3 on 62TS%

Kobe's peak season in 2001:
Regular season- 28.5ppg, 5.9rpg, 5apg, 552. TS%
Playoffs (over 16 games) 29-7-6 on 55TS%

Malone looks clearly better. That's before we factor in his notably higher defensive impact, and his lack of negatives poisoning the team. That's pretty damning for mine, because Malone kills Kobe longevity wise too. I suppose some people could argue Kobe's peak was later (after the rules changed to benefit him, which in and of itself is troubling), but if you do then you're ceding an even greater defensive advantage to Malone, because Kobe's D in his later years had gotten a lot worse.

2) The best part of his prime is better, even if we look at just the playoffs (where Malone was weaker):
Kobe's 06-10 stretch (after they changed the rules to help him) is 29.8 PPG/5.7 RPG/5.4 APG 57%TS
Karl Malone's 88-93 stretch is 28.5ppg/11.9rpg/2.3 on 56TS%, all while playing brutal man and post D

3) Karl Malone's long prime is clearly better and more consistent (Kobe's 06-10 run kind of stands alone with 2001 in terms of efficiency)

4) Karl seems to have an advantage everywhere; better impact by a large margin on D in the RS and PS, clearly better on O in the RS, comparable on O in the PS, much more longevity, no negatives hurting his team like Kobe often had, just as many or more accolades, etc. I don't see what Kobe's case is over K.Malone.

Post #351 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:45 pm

Jim,

Im going to drop this. We are on to Kobe v Karl and despite me mentioning team defense in every post you want to ignore that and make it about man defense. No real point in continuing this as we are talking past each other.

Post #352 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:46 pm

DQuinn1575 wrote:Additional info

The aba teams won zero playoff series in 1977

All 4 teams did worse in 1977 in regular season

The sixers had 2 aba Mvps in McGinnis and Erving and couldn't win nba title. Nba teams with 2 Mvps are super teams like 71 bucks 86 celtics 83 sixers 87 lakers

All these plus the two studies are fact based

spurs that had vastly improving 24 year olds kenon and gervin - both excellent players so yes they did get better.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It feels to me like you're just seeing your role here as to add additional points here in the direction you believe. You know they aren't the whole picture, but they are true and hence you believe they are worth saying.

I look at what you're saying though and it's just massively cherry picked.

Just looking at the first statement: No ABA teams won a series in 1977.

Well yeah, but there were only 4 ABA with winning records in the ABA, only 3 of them went over to the NBA, and only 2 of them were basically left intact.

Of those two teams:
One was the Spurs who didn't win in a series in the ABA playoffs, and who were a 5 seed in the NBA not expected to win. Were they closer to the mean than the previous year? Sure, so was the team that beat them in the playoffs, the defending NBA champion Celtics.

The other of those teams got a bye in the first round and then hit Portland team that was about to win the title and announce itself as a juggarnaut (however briefly).

And of course, that Portland team had an ABA player as its 2nd best player, and the team they played in the finals had an ABA player as its best player.

I don't know, to me it's just so clear cut that the image you're presenting when you make a statement like this is not remotely similar to what any objective person would come up with based on analyzing the performance of ABA teams in the NBA, so it feels less to me like a point moving us closer to a complete picture, and more like something that tries to halt analytical progress in that regard.

ThaRegul8r · Post #353 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 10:57 pm

dautjazz wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
dautjazz wrote: but he did have one of the greatest Finals performances of all time, and what is considered by some the best performance on the losing end ever, his 1998 Finals performance.

Really? I've never heard anyone mentioning '98 Malone as the best finals performance ever, on the losing team. He certainly played well in those finals, much better than he did in '97 (when Rodman was often able to guard him effectively 1 on 1, just like Sheed against Duncan in the 2005 finals), but still, Malone pretty much averaged his usual numbers in the '98 finals - 25/10.5/4 on 55% TS, with a little more turnovers than usual - that's a very good stuff, don't get me wrong, but it's nothing extraordinary. For example, it's not even close to 1966 or 1969 West or 1977 Dr. J as far as the best finals performances on the losing team. Honestly, I'd definitely take 1972 Walt Frazier over 1998 Karl, too - Clyde averaged 23/8/8 on almost 59% from the field, and locked down Jerry West at the same time.

Well ESPN for one regarded them very high. I know, ESPN is BSPN, w/e, just a source of someone that speaks very highly of Malone's 1998 Finals performance. BTW these rankings are since the NBA/ABA merger.

Game 5 of the 1998 finals was considered the best performance by a player that didn't win the series.
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/st ... arl-malone

Malone's 1998 series in 18th.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... nces-11-20

This is the kind of thing I hate, though the fact that you're a Jazz fan is relevant.

So, one guy listing one game of Malone as "the single best performance by a player whose team didn't win the series" "since the merger", and one guy saying Malone's '98 was "my choice as the best by a losing player in the post-merger era" = "considered by some the best performance on the losing end ever"? Since when did "post NBA/ABA merger" equal "ever"? (Since Kevin Love's "record" double-double streak, apparently. For some reason, a lot of people have problems grasping the concept of "all-time" or "ever.") That list was never claimed to be comprehensive, yet you're listing it as evidence of something that was never said. The guy you cited never stated Malone's 1998 Finals performance was "the best performance on the losing end ever." That's a blatant falsification.

Like I said before, if a player is truly great, then there won't be any need for embellishment. The unvarnished truth should be more than sufficient. When you have to resort to stating things that aren't true and easily disproven (by those who bother to check), it must mean the player in question must not have much of a case.

Post #354 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 11:17 pm

Baller2014 wrote:That candidate might have had a good chance of winning, if only their supporters had voted for them. For instance, I saw John post how he wanted to vote for Dr J at this spot, but he didn't because he "didn't think he'd win". In fact, if he and a few of the Dr J fans had voted for him here, he might well have won.

ftr, I'm if anything trying to avoid thinking like this. I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, but it can really cause problems.

Most likely for me, I'm going to end up voting against Kobe in runoffs for as long as he's still on the ballot (simply because I expect he'll get in very soon, and I know I rate him a bit lower than most). It's not my goal though to lower Kobe's ranking, and if Kobe were to lose this runoff, and other threads go similarly, then we'd have an issue where all the non-Kobe guys are having there ordering determined by really low pluralities. When this happens if makes the rankings less informative, which I'd prefer to avoid.

So yeah, if anything I'm hoping Kobe gets in here for entirely pragmatic reasons...but I won't vote for a guy for such reasons because that's actually the worst kind of strategic voting.

magicmerl · Post #355 » by **magicmerl** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 11:51 pm

Owly wrote:Post 307 I cast a tentative vote for Robinson (sorry, I didn't bold it and left it as somewhat of a footnote of a much larger post).

Thanks, I've noted it and you will be in the next tally (in a few hours time).

ceiling raiser · Post #356 » by **ceiling raiser** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 11:53 pm

I'm not sure if I'll be voting in the runoff, but I don't know how I feel about Malone as a candidate. I would lean Kobe here, but I haven't thought too much about this particular comparison.

Kobe has great longevity, but it's an advantage for Malone. Malone is a big man, but the two things I most like to see from a big--anchoring your defense and shot creation from the low post--aren't things he exhibited as much as I'd like (the two big men I was considering for my vote, Dirk who I ultimately settled on and Robinson, both were terrific in at least one of the two). While I shouldn't weight stylistic considerations too much, I think both are vital in assembling a strong team, and if you're not getting one from one of your bigs, it becomes more difficult to find those parts on your roster, since they're traditional big man traits. So if you go with a specialist, you're probably going to congest the paint, when you really don't want much more than one player without some semblance of 3pt range on the floor in today's league. So while portability isn't one of Kobe's extreme strengths, it isn't for Malone either IMO. Just my thinking at the moment.

kayess · Post #357 » by **kayess** » Fri Aug 1, 2014 11:58 pm

I hope Kobe gets in so people can finally stop whining and the level of discussion can improve.

Guys we did it! We lowered Kobe's ranking!

ShaqAttack3234 · Post #358 » by **ShaqAttack3234** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 12:04 am

Obviously, I'm sticking with Kobe.

I have Malone borderline top 20ish personally. Just not dominant enough for me, and the postseason performances leave something to be desired.

Check out some of these losses and declines for prime Malone.

1990 Season- 31 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.7 TO, 0.6 bpg, 1.5 spg, 56.2 FG%, 62.6 TS%, 82 games
1990 1st round vs Phoenix- 25.2 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.4 TO, 2.2 spg, 1 bpg, 43.8 FG%, 50.5 TS%, 5 games

1991 Season- 29 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 3 TO, 1 bpg, 1.1 spg, 52.6 FG%, 59.6 TS%, 82 games
1991 WCSF vs Portland- 29.6 ppg, 14.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.6 TO, 42.4 FG%, 52.4 TS%, 5 games

1993 Season- 27 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.9 TO, 1 bpg, 1.5 spg, 55.2 FG%, 61.2 TS%, 82 games
1993 1st round vs Seattle- 24 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2 apg, 4 TO, 0.4 bpg, 1.2 spg, 45.4 FG%, 52.8 TS%, 5 games

1994 Season- 25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 4 apg, 2.9 TO, 1.5 bpg, 1.5 spg, 49.7 FG%, 55 TS%, 82 games
1994 WCF vs Houston- 26 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.2 TO, 0.6 bpg, 0.6 spg, 43.3 FG%, 50.5 TS%, 5 games

1996 Season- 25.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.4 TO, 0.7 bpg, 1.7 spg, 51.9 FG%, 57.5 TS%, 82 games
1996 WCF vs Seattle- 27 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 5.1 apg, 2.7 TO, 0.4 bpg, 2.1 spg, 47.5 FG%, 50.1 TS%, 7 games

1997 Season- 27.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.8 TO, 0.6 bpg, 1.4 spg, 55 FG%, 60 TS%, 82 games
1997 Finals vs Bulls- 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.3 TO, 0.3 bpg, 1.7 spg, 44.3 FG%, 48.5 TS%, 6 games

1999 Season- 23.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.3 TO, 0.6 bpg, 1.3 spg, 49.2 FG%, 57.7 TS%, 49 games
1999 WCSF vs Portland- 20.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.2 TO, 0.8 bpg, 1.3 spg, 43 FG%, 49.6 TS%, 6 games

2000 Season- 25.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 TO, 0.9 bpg, 1 spg, 50.9 FG%, 58.2 TS%, 82 games
2000 WCSF vs Portland- 23.8 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 4 apg, 2.6 TO, 0.8 bpg, 0.8 spg, 44.1 FG%, 52.5 TS%, 5 games

Forget how often he was well below 55 TS%, look at how often he was hovering right around or below that 50 TS% mark! And this is just the series Karl lost. If someone wants to bring up a poor shooting series Kobe won, I can throw in some more for Malone. At some point, regardless of what people think about karl's help, you have to look at his play and ask yourself, was the Mailman delivering himself in the playoffs? Most people at the time didn't think so, and this reputation didn't just appear out of nowhere.

Karl was showing a bit more signs of decline by 2001, so I didn't include that one, but that was another trademark Mailman decline. So yeah, you can take Karl and his playoff disappearing acts, begging the media for an MVP ect. I'll take Kobe destroying tough Western Conferences, raising his game in the playoffs, posting 4 truly great playoff runs and racking up rings.

Post #359 » by **Moonbeam** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 12:05 am

I missed the deadline as well, and was on a razor's edge between Jerry West and Julius Erving.

This runoff features a player I openly dislike in Kobe, and a player I like in Karl Malone, playing for a team that has been my 2nd favorite in the league since 1990. I feel that Karl had an excellent career, and his regular season performances are sterling. I give Kobe the edge in postseason performance. This disparity is supported by my Weighted Prime Win Shares per game metric, so it becomes a question of how to weigh up regular season vs. postseason. A key part of my vote is the eye-opening analysis from Elgee in which Kobe faced good defenses a much higher proportion of the time in both the regular season and especially in the playoffs, and that tilts the balance in his favor.

Vote: Kobe Bryant

An Unbiased Fan · Post #360 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Sat Aug 2, 2014 12:49 am

fpliii wrote:I'm not sure if I'll be voting in the runoff, but I don't know how I feel about Malone as a candidate. I would lean Kobe here, but I haven't thought too much about this particular comparison.

Kobe has great longevity, but it's an advantage for Malone. Malone is a big man, but the two things I most like to see from a big--anchoring your defense and shot creation from the low post--aren't things he exhibited as much as I'd like (the two big men I was considering for my vote, Dirk who I ultimately settled on and Robinson, both were terrific in at least one of the two). While I shouldn't weight stylistic considerations too much, I think both are vital in assembling a strong team, and if you're not getting one from one of your bigs, it becomes more difficult to find those parts on your roster, since they're traditional big man traits. So if you go with a specialist, you're probably going to congest the paint, when you really don't want much more than one player without some semblance of 3pt range on the floor in today's league. So while portability isn't one of Kobe's extreme strengths, it isn't for Malone either IMO. Just my thinking at the moment.

Don't forget, Kobe is an exceptional post player too.

Spoiler: