OKC Starting SG?

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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#101 » by bbms » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:15 pm

bondom34 wrote:Just finally got to catch up and read this article.......it shows nothing, sorry. According to this the best offense should be the Spurs, followed by none other than CHARLOTTE! Passing in and of itself isn't good, it's just passing. It's like saying dribbling is bad so teams that dribble a lot are bad.

Noone here, myself included, is saying Brooks takes no blame. I've been vocal about wanting an offensive assistant to put in some new stuff, but some fans seem to do nothing but blame him every time the team loses no matter what. The guy is clearly better than many NBA coaches now and guys who are out of jobs. Sloan's teams certainly didn't lack for talent, nor did Karl's. Brooks has developed young talent better than Brown, shown more on offense than Brown, and about as much on defense. Some fans just don't want to do 1 of 2 things: First, admit the other team is better. Second, blame the players. Is it possible maybe that the Spurs are a little better? After KD, Russ, and Ibaka, that their 4-10 were just better than OKC's 4-10? Is it possible that maybe just maybe KD wasn't very good in the playoffs, Ibaka missed time, Thabo disappearred entirely, noone on the bench could buy a basket, Russ was on and off, and Ibaka hurt? NOPE! FIUR BROOKS!

Sorry, but blaming the coach is an age old NBA tradition, and it's senseless. I get the guy isn't perfect, that's fine. But clearly the players want to ride with him, he's done well to this point, and sometimes, that says as much as I can possibly say.


You're reading it in a wrong perspective. The arcticle never meant to quantify scoring, or how good an offense is. The project the arcticle is based on, is on a counting of how much successful passes and movements on the ball are made on a possession/possession lenght basis. This is a way to quantify how much ball movement (and involvement of the whole lineup on building up plays). This was never an attempt to rank the best offenses, because each offense is build on very different players. For example, a team can execute a play or possession very well, but have really bad finishers and scorers, thus, it'll not score well. And this is why most of the teams can't have high scoring numbers despite having a well structured team.

This is an arcticle that directly applies to the argument that says that there is more good coaching/team play in the league than there are top teams in the league. Thunder ranks bad on team play, but ranks the highest on scoring talent. You should check again the insight on Grizzlies vs Thunder. One team operated the ball movement really well, executed a well-run offense, but hit the barrier of lack of scoring optins, while the other had poorly executed the ball, but had two of the league's best individual scorers. But the outcome is simple: Grizzlies had a good defensive team and the outcome was roughly the same, as they nullified our individual scoring, the result of that was a much closer series than it should be. Would it be the same if we had a Bobcats-like offense scheme, except for better scorers/finishers in Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka? That's the true questioning the arcticle brought up.

Sometimes the score sheet doesn't make justice to the offensive scheme. Thunder is one of them. Bulls are one of them. Wizards are one of them. And the list goes on, Hawks, Grizzlies, Warriors (on the the uglier aspect), Denver (on the uglier aspect). the teams that balance both, reach true excellence on offense, like Spurs, Mavs, Miami, Portland. I say balance, not excellence, because there's an interesting aspect on this analysis: teams with the worse scorers, tend to pass more, because there's no one that "knows how to put in the basket", or the "finisher", or the matador, but if you are over reliant on the matador, you shouldn't just go straight to him and wait something happen, like the Thunder does, because that makes the offense too predictable, and leads to few clean looks to the stars - which is why the Thunder's offense underperformed heavily in the last two playoffs. Lack of ball movement makes your star, Durant, take the ball on the worst positions possible to score, which is horrible to do in the playoffs, since game plans are stronger.

Also, more ball movement, less skilled players, more turnovers. Which is why I'm a huge advocate for a big time pass-oriented (or development of passing skills) bigs. Passing bigs helps the ball movement so much, and makes the offense much more unpredictable. This is why the Thunder used to be so dominant with a healthy Collison - check his ORAPM (6th among PFs last season, in his arguably worst season in the past years). Ball movement makes this offense explode in a qualitative and quantitative approach.

This is the best chance for Brooks to win the championship, with the everlasting Spurs possibly unmotivated with the ring, and Miami's fall. If he doesn't win this year, Thunder might never win under this poor orchestrated team.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#102 » by bondom34 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:31 pm

bbms wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Just finally got to catch up and read this article.......it shows nothing, sorry. According to this the best offense should be the Spurs, followed by none other than CHARLOTTE! Passing in and of itself isn't good, it's just passing. It's like saying dribbling is bad so teams that dribble a lot are bad.

Noone here, myself included, is saying Brooks takes no blame. I've been vocal about wanting an offensive assistant to put in some new stuff, but some fans seem to do nothing but blame him every time the team loses no matter what. The guy is clearly better than many NBA coaches now and guys who are out of jobs. Sloan's teams certainly didn't lack for talent, nor did Karl's. Brooks has developed young talent better than Brown, shown more on offense than Brown, and about as much on defense. Some fans just don't want to do 1 of 2 things: First, admit the other team is better. Second, blame the players. Is it possible maybe that the Spurs are a little better? After KD, Russ, and Ibaka, that their 4-10 were just better than OKC's 4-10? Is it possible that maybe just maybe KD wasn't very good in the playoffs, Ibaka missed time, Thabo disappearred entirely, noone on the bench could buy a basket, Russ was on and off, and Ibaka hurt? NOPE! FIUR BROOKS!

Sorry, but blaming the coach is an age old NBA tradition, and it's senseless. I get the guy isn't perfect, that's fine. But clearly the players want to ride with him, he's done well to this point, and sometimes, that says as much as I can possibly say.


You're reading it in a wrong perspective. The arcticle never meant to quantify scoring, or how good an offense is. The project the arcticle is based on, is on a counting of how much successful passes and movements on the ball are made on a possession/possession lenght basis. This is a way to quantify how much ball movement (and involvement of the whole lineup on building up plays). This was never an attempt to rank the best offenses, because each offense is build on very different players. For example, a team can execute a play or possession very well, but have really bad finishers and scorers, thus, it'll not score well. And this is why most of the teams can't have high scoring numbers despite having a well structured team.

This is an arcticle that directly applies to the argument that says that there is more good coaching/team play in the league than there are top teams in the league. Thunder ranks bad on team play, but ranks the highest on scoring talent. You should check again the insight on Grizzlies vs Thunder. One team operated the ball movement really well, executed a well-run offense, but hit the barrier of lack of scoring optins, while the other had poorly executed the ball, but had two of the league's best individual scorers. But the outcome is simple: Grizzlies had a good defensive team and the outcome was roughly the same, as they nullified our individual scoring, the result of that was a much closer series than it should be. Would it be the same if we had a Bobcats-like offense scheme, except for better scorers/finishers in Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka? That's the true questioning the arcticle brought up.

Okay then......so I guess I just have no idea what you're trying to get at. I'd like more off ball movement as well, but this didn't prove anything other than the Thunder don't pass as much as other teams. They were still the 7th ranked offense in the NBA. The 6 teams above them had different methods of execution as well, some teams are just better equipped to handle certain styles of play. The issue against Memphis wasn't lack of passing, it was lack of a scoring threat anywhere other than the starting lineup.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#103 » by bbms » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:36 pm

Read this trhough. It's insightful. You're smart, you'll understand what that means.

To be the 7th best ranked defense or the 30th doesn't make much difference when you factor in a favorable/unfavorable matchup. History shows that. Look at how many times a top 5 offense in scoring totally crumbled against a poor matchup. And guess what? The simpler (more concentrated usage, less ball movement), the easier to counter.

edits:

Also check my edit, look what I'm talking about Collison and his superstar impact RAPM-wise on the above post.

The thing on the Memphis Grizzlies series is, as the Thunder insisted on making simple sets of getting Durant the ball on the top of the key and passing in the mid post, it became easy to read and predictable all Durant's movements, and that helped Tony Allen to frustrate Durant's attempts to get the ball and score. That shook Durant's confidence, and after a two or three games of neutralizing the league's top scoring threat, Durant even started to look bad technically. It's intangible, but I call that undermining his confidence.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#104 » by Space Dracula » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:15 pm

Zach Lowe had a nice line in one of his recent articles that I think is pertinent to this Scott Brooks discussion:

Anyone proclaiming a counterfactual outcome with certainty is usually selling you garbage.

Observing the facts of the matter, i.e. Scott Brooks' success with the Thunder, the offense reaching record-breaking levels in 2012-13 despite losing a Top 20 player, 3/4 WCF appearances and perhaps as many as three Finals appearances barring injuries to key players. Some compelling objective data in coach specific RAPM (which ranks him #1 in the league). Little in the way of locker room drama associated with him.

Scott Brooks detractors have some avenues to poke holes in those facts. "Anyone with Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka would do as well". "The offense fails in the playoffs when it matters". And of course a plethora of subjective views. These all range from counterfactual (offense failing in playoffs) to untestable (anyone could coach this team to success).

Most Brooks detractors are unable to acknowledge that their arguments are counterfactual, and therefore have a larger element of uncertainty. Yet a discussion with most of them will often, in my experience, involve proclamations of 100% certainty. It's certainly possible that Brooks has had a lucky run with uncommonly strong rosters. But absolving Brooks from a large part in the team's success is "proclaiming a counterfactual outcome" as we have no data on Brooks with other rosters and little data on how players perform away from Brooks' teams. The one player for whom we do have significant data (Nick Collison) absolutely exploded into a +/- superstar almost as soon as Brooks took the helm.

In the end it's a circular argument. It's easy to show why Brooks is a fine coach because the results speak for themselves. I was a Brooks detractor until he improved the offense to legendary heights after losing James Harden; without the benefit of an All Star cast of assistants (looking at you Doc Rivers). That was impressive. Since then he's developed in unexpected ways; becoming way more willing to explore lineup changes and different combinations last season in the midst of some injuries. Detractors have some ammunition, a lot of it subjective, to back up their claims. But they are inherently counterfactual, and their unwillingness to admit any uncertainty makes me believe -- like Zach Lowe says -- they are selling garbage.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#105 » by bondom34 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:53 pm

bbms wrote:Read this trhough. It's insightful. You're smart, you'll understand what that means.

To be the 7th best ranked defense or the 30th doesn't make much difference when you factor in a favorable/unfavorable matchup. History shows that. Look at how many times a top 5 offense in scoring totally crumbled against a poor matchup. And guess what? The simpler (more concentrated usage, less ball movement), the easier to counter.

edits:

Also check my edit, look what I'm talking about Collison and his superstar impact RAPM-wise on the above post.

The thing on the Memphis Grizzlies series is, as the Thunder insisted on making simple sets of getting Durant the ball on the top of the key and passing in the mid post, it became easy to read and predictable all Durant's movements, and that helped Tony Allen to frustrate Durant's attempts to get the ball and score. That shook Durant's confidence, and after a two or three games of neutralizing the league's top scoring threat, Durant even started to look bad technically. It's intangible, but I call that undermining his confidence.


Read what Space Dracula says the post below yours. The arguement you are making is very single minded, and I know you're smarter than that as well. I was all over Brooks in the playoffs, but looking at it from a larger perspective, the entire arguement is against him. It was said earlier, but if he wins, KD, Russ, and Ibaka are great, if he loses, it's on him. You said it in your post, KD got down on himself. That's on him. Russ was awful that series, that's on him. Having 2 top 10 players go into slumps at the same time isn't something easy to overcome, and the team did it. The Thunder put up a better offensive rating against the Spurs than the Blazers, who were better in the RS as well, and rank higher in ball movement. Brooks isn't perfect, I get that, but he's certainly not the worst coach in the league as some are making him out to be.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#106 » by Space Dracula » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:09 pm

Focusing on the Memphis series and near loss -- you must also apply this type of criticism to Brooks' peers you are comparing him to. The Spurs were taken to seven games by the Mavericks, a much worse team than Memphis. In fact, the Grizzlies ranked among OKC and LAC after Marc Gasol returned from injury. Fact is we won the series against a terrific team, and some adjustments by Brooks may have played a key role. Perhaps the team could have performed better against Memphis and maybe another coach would have made it happen. But this argument is not testable and is counterfactual. Moreover, I expect that applying this level of critique to any active coach would yield similar results. Doc Rivers once lost in the first round with HCA and no injuries. The Spurs lost to an eight seed. Dig deep enough and every coach has flaws.
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#107 » by BrianDavis » Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:30 am

KD35Brah wrote:
BrianDavis wrote:Better yet, heres a list of NBA coaches with zero wins in the NBA, who you can't say are "better" coaches than Scott Brooks

David Blatt
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Quinn Snyder

Heres a list of coaches who have only coached for 1 season and have accomplished absolutely nothing in the NBA and can't possibly be labeled as better coaches than Scott Brooks

Mike Budenholzer
Brad Stevens
Steve Clifford
Brian Shaw
David Joeger
Jason Kidd
Brett Brown
Jeff Hornacek
Michael Malone

Heres a list of coaches current coaches who have been fired and re-hired since Scott Brooks became head coach of the Thunder

Lionel Hollins
Stan Van Gundy
Kevin McHale
Flip Saunders

Current active coaches who haven't been recently fired, but have a career win % less than 45%

Monty Williams .410
Jacque Vaughn .262
Terry Stots .405
Dwane Casey .449
Randy Whitman .367


Whats left you ask? What active NBA coaches have actually proven themselves recently and over the course of their careers?

Rick Carlisle - who has 1 ring, Brooks is 1-1 against in the postseason
Tom Thibodeau - who has 0 rings
Frank Vogel - who has 0 rings
Doc Rivers - who has 1 ring, Brooks is 1-0 against in the postseason
Eric Spoelstra - who has 2 rings, Brooks is 0-1 against in the postseason
Greg Popovich - who has 5 rings, Brooks is 1-1 against in the postseason
AND
Scott Brooks

After Thibs, Calisle, Popovich, and Doc, there isnt a coach in the NBA who I can honestly say is better than Scotty.
This list means nothing, along with the records.

No one in the league has a trio of Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka. Who are all 2 way players. Do you honestly know how hard it is to not have an offensive system with those 3 guys in your starting lineup? Scott brooks will scott Brooks and leave 2 offensively inept players in the starting lineup.

Brooks is sitting here with the best Scorer in the NBA, the best shot blocker in the league, along with a top 3 PG. No one else in any other fanbase thinks Brooks is a good coach. I don't know if its bias or that you choose to ignore his glaring flaws. You want me take Brooks seriously because of his RS records and Playoffs records when he goes into the playoffs with Durant, westbrook, James Harden, and ibaka?


You missed the point of my post
There are NO WORDS
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#108 » by jackson77 » Sat Aug 2, 2014 10:15 am

Roberson starting SG

Perkins starting C

Brooks - coach

all clear
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Re: OKC Starting SG? 

Post#109 » by HeartSouloma » Sat Aug 2, 2014 11:22 am

Uh, no. Still would be a two man show. ^

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