RealGM Top 100 List #14

[ThaRegul8r]

I don't think West has a case here over Dr J or Karl Malone.

Putting aside West for the moment, what's Malone's case over Dr. J? Your "Dr. J vs. Malone" post was actually preoccupied with Kobe, and didn't actually compare Erving and Malone (go figure). Dr J peaked higher, brought his team closer to the ultimate goal of winning than Malone did (succeeding three more times than Malone did), performed better in the Finals when he got his teams there, and showed he could help his teams win as a first option or a second option. Longevity in and of itself doesn't bring an advantage if you don't do as much to help your team win.

Good question. Dr J peaked higher than Karl Malone, but I feel Malone's peak is being slept on a lot. It's lower, but not that much lower. Combine that with his insane longevity and consistency, and I think Malone edges Dr J out on this (though it's horrendously close). I just think Malone's career impact is greater (and more likely to let you build title teams overall), albeit by a miniscule margin.

Erving had a GOAT tier peak. Malone didn't. Simple as that. We can cut through the "but Malone's wasn't a slouch" or anything to that effect which is irrelevant to that fact. For those who are enamored with carry-jobs, it has that. For those who like "stepping up when it counts," it's there.

For those that value it, Erving was a better Finals performer than Malone:

Spoiler:

Erving in general always gets underrated. His teams were always a near top five defensive team in the NBA. He was among the best shot blockers at his position, a monster team defender, and as someone alluded to, had some impressive defensive man performances throughout the course of his career as well. He was exceptional off the ball, and as noted by ronny, an extremely underrated passer/play-maker. He was an efficient high volume scorer at the peak of his career, with the ability to dominate games - often doing so to lead his team.

His latter year playoffs may not have been too sexy but Erving is definitely one of the top ten Finals performers of All-Time. Even in 83, 19 PPG might not be all that impressive, but five assists, nine boards, over a steal and three blocks with a game clinching steal and dunk in the sweep of the Finals screams impressive to me.

NBA Finals Statistics
77' Finals - 30.3 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.7 SPG, 0.8 BPG on .543
80' Finals - 25.5 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 5.0 APG, 2.0 SPG, 2.3 BPG on .522
82' Finals - 25.0 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 3.3 APG, 1.8 SPG, 1.3 BPG on .543
83' Finals - 19.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.3 SPG, 2.8 BPG on .469

76 ABA Finals - 37.7 PPG, 14.2 RPG, 6.0 APG, 3.0 SPG, 2.2 BPG.

*In the same Finals, he had back to back 45+ point games. He essentially hit the game-winner in Game 1 and 2. And the clinching Game 6, had 31 points, 19 boards, 5 assists, 5 steals, and 4 blocks.

**Note, I understand the Finals aren't a tell all story, but I'd argue that it's still a large measuring stick when we're comparing players of this caliber. Look at how much we downgrade LeBron for his performance last season. If a player leads his team to numerous finals, comes away with championships, and ridiculously dominant performances, that should count as something significant.

I'm not sure where to get other ABA Final statistics, but in 74' he opened up the Finals with a 47 point game, averaged 28/10/5 in the post-season run and led the Nets to the championship. Keep this in mind - the Nets with the addition of Erving and Kenon, went from a 30-54 win team to 55 wins and an ABA championship. And, let's not try to downgrade the sort of competition, when he was being defended by the best of the best, namely Bobby Jones and Willie Wise. I completely agree with ronny, the ABA from 74-76 was just as good as the NBA - and Erving came away with two championships. Look at the Nuggets team post-merger, finished with the 2nd best record in NBA - the same team that LOST to the Nets in the final season of the ABA. His impact on his teams have already been stated through the immense W/L records of prior to Erving opposed to with him.

And, while many people tend to give credit to Moses for their championship run (rightfully so), it's an often under looked fact that the Sixers the season before acquiring Moses were already a championship caliber team that challenged the Lakers in the Finals to six games. 5-6 Top 5 Finishes in MVP Voting, 5 straight All-NBA First team appearances, 1 Time NBA MVP, a champion, four NBA Finals appearances, 11 NBA All-Star games, THEN factor in what he accomplished in an ABA stretch as good as the NBA during the time, two more ABA championships, MVP's, and ridiculous dominant performances..

Erving has the best peak, doesn't lack in longevity, and was a big game performer.

I'm not sure on nomination, Wade, Pettit, and guys like Frazier, Pippen deserve mention as well. My vote however will be with Erving, but I'll make that more formal with a later post.

Spoiler:

good arguments mystic. Dr J was also a great playoff performer in the NBA. before Moses joined the team, he led the Sixers to multiple deep playoff runs while posting 24 ppg, 7.5 rpg and 4.4 apg on 56% TS and 3.4 tov (not counting '77 as tov were not recorded back then).

Erving was one of the greatest finals performers in history too. after totally dominating ABA finals (destroyed Bobby Jones in '76 finals) he went for 30/7/5/3 on 60% TS vs Bill Walton's Blazers, then 25.5/7/5/2 on 57% TS vs Kareem's Lakers, then again 25/8/3/3 on 58% TS vs Kareem's Lakers. you could make a case he outplayed both Bill Walton and Kareem (twice) in the finals, but lost because of outside reasons. he was no slouch in their championship finals either, with 19/8.5/5 (outrebounding Kareem in the series) though only 52% TS.

and as I said, Sixers were major players when he was there. they didn't make at least conference finals only 4 times, losing to '79 Spurs (when team was banged up) and to Nets in 84 and elite Bucks teams in 86 and 87 when Dr J was in his mid 30s. their other postseason runs were incredibly succesful in that period, including 4 finals and 3 other ECFs (total 7 ECFs).

teams they lost to:
77 champions Blazers, 5.4 SRS for the year, but about 10 SRS with healthy Walton
78 champions Bullets though only 0.8 SRS (maybe penbeast can elaborate here)
79 Spurs with league's best 5 SRS
80 champions Lakers with 5.4 SRS
81 champions Celtics with 6 SRS
82 champions Lakers with 4.4 SRS
83 almost swept entire run
84 Nets 1.3 SRS
85 Celtics with 6.5 SRS
86 Bucks with 8.7 SRS
87 Bucks with 4 SRS (they were much better with healthy Pressey though)

so when talking about Dr J's playoff opposition, it doesn't really get any better. in his prime (77-82) he lost 5 times to NBA champions and once to league's best RS team (79 Spurs) with his team banged up. if Sixers played in the western conference instead of the Lakers, we'd be talking about finals appearances every year. when Dr J was going down, it was against elite teams.

Erving was an outstanding clutch perfomer who generally played his best in the biggest games; he averaged 24.2 ppg in his regular season career but increased that number to 28.1 in 33 NBA/ABA Finals game, winning three championships in six appearances. Erving’s career scoring average of 25.5 ppg in the NBA Finals is the eighth best of all time and he scored at least 20 points in 21 of his 22 Finals games, including his first 19, a streak that still stands among the longest ever. In his two trips to the ABA Finals, Erving averaged 33.4 ppg, scored at least 20 points in 10 of 11 games, topped 30 points eight times and had three 40 point games.

I'm not even going to count his championship seasons to show it isn't winner's bias:

As the #1 option in the NBA, Erving led the 76ers to three NBA Finals appearances, averaging a series-high 30.3 points on 54.3 percent shooting from the floor and 85.7 percent shooting from the line, 6.8 rebounds, 5 assists and 2.67 steals in 41.3 minutes per game in the 1977 NBA Finals against the Portland Trail Blazers; 25.5 points on 52.2 percent shooting from the floor, 70.8 percent shooting from the line and 57.0 percent true shooting, 7 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals in 40.7 minutes per game in the 1980 NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers; and 25 points on 54.3 percent shooting from the floor, 72 percent shooting from the line and 59.1 percent true shooting, 8.2 rebounds, 3.3 assists, 1.83 steals and 1.33 blocked shots in 38.3 minutes per game in the 1982 NBA Finals against the Lakers. His cumulative averages for those Finals is 26.9 points on 53.6 percent shooting from the floor, 76.2 percent shooting from the line and 58.9 percent true shooting, 7.3 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 2.17 steals and 1.5 blocked shots in 40.1 minutes per game.

As the #1 option, Malone led the Jazz to two NBA Finals appearances, averaging 23.8 points on 44.3 percent shooting from the floor, 60.3 percent shooting from the line and 48.5 percent true shooting, 10.3 rebounds, 3.5 assists and 1.67 steals in 40.8 minutes per game in 1997; and 25.0 points on 50.4 percent shooting from the floor, 78.9 percent shooting from the line and 55.3 percent true shooting, 10.5 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 1.67 steals in 40.5 minutes per game in 1998. His cumulative averages for those Finals is 24.4 points on 47.3 percent shooting from the floor, 67.7 percent shooting from the line and 51.1 percent true shooting, 10.4 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 1.33 steals and 0.75 blocks in 40.8 minutes per game.

Simply comparing them both as #1 options in non-title winning runs, Erving performed better than Malone did. That caliber of performance goes further toward helping a player's team win than Malone's. That's not counting anything in the ABA. And when the Sixers won in 1983, it was Erving who put the capper on the championship:

Spoiler:

INGLEWOOD, Calif. (UPI) — The Philadelphia 76ers, sparked by the spectacular clutch play of Julius Erving, climaxed a magnificent season Tuesday night with a four-game sweep of the Los Angeles Lakers, winning their first NBA championship since 1967 with a 115-108 victory.

Erving finished with 19 points, 7 coming in the last two minutes when the 76ers, who had not led since the opening period, surged back into the game. An Erving steal and dunk with two minutes left tied the score 106-106. With 59 seconds left, Erving slammed home another shot and was fouled. He made the free throw and the 76ers led 109-107.

After a free throw by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar pulled the desperate Lakers within 109-108, Erving dethroned the defending champions by drilling a 10-foot jumper with 24 seconds left.

Moses Malone, who led the 76ers with 24 points and 23 rebounds, jammed the ball through the hoop with 13 seconds left and Maurice Cheeks, who had 18 points, began a wild Philadelphia celebration by hitting the final basket with one second left.
(Record-Journal, Jun 1, 1983.)

Spoiler:

Doc’s finest hour puts signature on 76ers’ NBA championship crown

By Bill Livingston
Knight-Ridder Newspapers

INGLEWOOD, Calif. — The elder statesman made his points eloquently.

Seven of them in a row in the fourth quarter heat and fury of the 76ers’ world-championship win.

The old guy kicked up his heels. And then he showed them to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Seven points in a row. When the NBA championship was on the line, Julius Erving’s box-score line was full of drama.

In the same building in which his self-control broke and he cried unashamedly in defeat last year, in the Los Angeles Forum, before 17,505 hostile witnesses, Julius Erving, 33 years old, a dozen years as a pro, three times a loser in the NBA finals, walked off with the smile of a winner Tuesday night.

Erving, the Sixers captain and for so long the heart of the Sixers team, was its driving force when the championship was won, 115-108, over the Lakers to complete a 4-0 sweep of the NBA finals Tuesday night.

“After coming in second three times (since coming to the Sixers in 1976), you start to ask why it happens,” Erving said outside the riotous Sixers locker room. “I would like to give thanks to the Creator, not only for the times we were victorious, but for the times we lost. Those times built our character as men. Without what happened then, we wouldn’t be the same now.”

But without what happened in the final 2 minutes, 1 second, without what Dr. J, a basketball artist, created, they wouldn’t be champions today.

The Sixers trailed, 106-104. The Lakers had the ball and were waiting patiently for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, another senior citizen of some note, to swing up another sky-hook and repulse this latest Sixers’ challenge. Abdul-Jabbar had the ball, but he was a redwood surrounded with snarling buzz saws, so he had to pass it out. He aimed the ball for Michael Cooper on the right wing.

“I gambled a little bit and left my man, Jamaal Wilkes, who I really didn’t want to leave,” said Erving. “I just hedged a little bit.”

And one of those huge hands — the same mitts whose massive handprint used to stamp the Sixers as his team, beyond doubt, beyond question — struck the ball down. Erving flew away from the pack and dunked to tie it.

The Lakers took the lead back on a free throw by Magic Johnson, then got the ball back when the indecisive Sixers failed to get a shot off in 24 seconds.

Again they called on Abdul-Jabbar, but in this 2-hour, 37-minute test of wills, the biggest Laker, depleted by 40 minutes of play, missed with a baseline hook. It was his second critical error; it was Erving’s second opportunity to slip on the championship ring that had always been just out of reach.

A fast break, Mo Cheeks blazing down the floor, Erving hurtling in from the left wing, put the Lakers in jeopardy. But Cheeks’ shovel pass to Erving was too low; it was beneath his knees. The wings would be clipped again, it seemed certain.

“It was too low, but it wound up in the right place,” said Erving, who controlled the pass somehow, then dumped a scooped shot off the glass as Johnson fouled him. The Lakers took time out, hoping to rattle Erving into missing the free throw, but he hit nothing but net afterward, completing the three-point play that made the Sixers’ lead 109-107.

Abdul-Jabbar, called on again, drew a foul from Cheeks, as both teams, weary, relying on muscle memory, relying on what had always worked before, before Moses Malone and Andrew Toney and Magic Johnson, went to their old war horses.

But Kareem hit the back of the rim on his first foul shot. His second reduced the Sixers’ lead to 109-108, with 42 seconds to go.

“The offensive leadership of this team at clutch time is provided by Moses or Andrew (Toney) now,” said Erving. “I was looking for them first.”

But he couldn’t get it to them and, as the shot clock wound down, Erving ended up face-to-face with Johnson, 18 feet from the basket, just inside the right-hand arc of the foul circle.

“I hadn’t been shooting that well,” said Erving. “But I let it fly and it was in the Lord’s hands.”

He may be 33 and graying now, but in the face-down with Johnson, Magic had blinked. Erving’s jumper hit nothing but net. Again.

The Lakers, the worst three-point shooting team in the NBA, had 24 seconds to learn to love the bomb.

Two of them, bracketed around another Abdul-Jabbar turnover, missed, and a final, anticlimactic dunk show by Malone and Cheeks took place amid an ongoing celebration by the Sixers’ bench.

“For us,” said Erving, after the incredible rush of events had spent itself, “this is a beginning. This isn’t the end of a long, cumbersome journey. It is the beginning.”

He hugged NBA commissioner Larry O’Brien and he hugged Sixers’ general manager Pat Williams. And he hugged owner Harold Katz.

“I cried here last year, for the first time since my brother died in 1969,” Erving said, referring to the sixth-game defeat at the hands of the Lakers that ended another unsuccessful bid for the title. “But Mr. Katz took one look at the tears in my eye and he said, ‘You won’t have to cry again.’ ”

In the locker room, his teamates [sic] were geysering champagne and coach Billy Cunningham was beckoning the elder statesman to join in the fun.

Just before he left the room, as final testimony to the sense of permanent values derived from 12 years in the flux of this high-speed game, Erving said, “I’ve had three rings (two in the ABA) in 12 years as a pro. So don’t get the idea this ring was just for me.”

He nodded toward the locker room. “They needed it more than me,” Julius Erving said.
(Boca Raton News, Jun 1, 1983.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3T ... 56599)

Spoiler:

“Erving has played on three 76er teams that reached the finals and expired, and now it seemed appropriate that he would be the one to lead the Sixers to their championship destiny. […] [H]is 20-foot jumper with 25 seconds to play — Philly leading, 111-108 — was the dagger that ripped open the Laker chest. ‘That jumper by Julius was the biggest shot,’ agreed Moses Malone, the dominating center the Sixers fished from the free-agent sea, the team’s leading scorer (24 points) and rebounder (23) on this most magnificent of nights. ‘When he hit that jumper, I knew we were going to win’ ” (Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Jun 1, 1983).

In his first NBA postseason, Erving averaged 27.3 points (9th in the playoffs) on 52.3 percent shooting from the floor, 82.1 percent shooting from the line and 57.7 percent true shooting (10th), 6.4 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.16 steals (4th) and 1.21 blocked shots (9th) in 39.9 minutes per game, and led the postseason in points, field-goals attempted, field goals made, free throw attempts, free throws, offensive win shares, win shares, and finished second in PER and win shares per 48 minutes. In his first NBA Finals he averaged 30.3 points on 54.3 percent shooting from the floor, 85.7 percent shooting from the line and 60.4 percent true shooting, 6.8 rebounds, 5 assists and 2.67 steals in 41.3 minutes per game against a team led by peak Bill Walton, who had the GOAT rebounding Finals grabbing 24.7 percent of all available rebounds and 38.8 percent of all available defensive rebounds. That >>> Malone's first NBA Finals appearance. And this was done on a team that was a bad fit and a bunch of selfish ballhogs.

As I said in the beginning, Dr J peaked higher, brought his team closer to the ultimate goal of winning than Malone did (succeeding three more times than Malone did), performed better in the Finals when he got his teams there, and showed he could help his teams win as a first or a second option.

[RebelWithACause]

Alpha years as in 2009 and 2010?

Those are alpha years yes, I was including at least back through '06 though.

My guess is that your point is that we didn't get to see much of him at his absolute peak as an alpha due to injury...which is a great point if your argument is "We haven't seen enough to assume we couldn't do it."

There are two sides to that coin though. Wade only has 5 seasons total in which he played 70+ games. One of those was with LeBron, and one of those was with Shaq almost winning the MVP. Even including the Shaq year, there was never a time where he took part in an elite offense except in the LeBron year where his team's offense was about the same as LeBron's had been previously in Cleveland.

What I'm saying is that Wade actually hasn't directly shown us that much. He's shown us that he can will a team's offense from bad to mediocre, which is great, but it's not the same as leading stellar team offense, and I find myself wondering if he's a guy more ideally suited to the former than the latter. This is not simply due to the fact he hasn't shown it, but also due to the fact that this is something we tend to see from volume scorers.

And to emphasize a word I used before: The minimalism of Wade's game both intrigues me and worries me. I remember marveling as he stormed through the playoffs early on by seemingly doing the same thing over and over again. I was shocked that something so simple that kids do it on the playground could be so successful on the NBA level. It seemed like you could stop it.

And when you look at the numbers, well, they did stop it. They didn't shut it down, but they didn't get destroyed by it by any means. If you had told Dallas ahead of time that they could limit Miami (a 108 ORtg team) to 101 ORtg by letting Wade do his thing, they'd have taken it! If that happens and Dallas just scores more, we view Wade entirely differently today don't we?

As I say all this, I've marveled in the past at Wade's ability to "burn nuclear" when he needs to. The way he was all over the places in the '11 finals was undoubtedly a very, very good thing, and feel free to factor that in. However I see no reason to conclude that he can actually torch defenses with his driving approach alone. To me the counterargument would be talking about his playmaking skills.

(Tangent: And of course, the driving aspect, the fall down 7, get up 8, that we all admire so much - I say with unabashed sincerity - has everything to do with why he seems to have left his prime at age 29, which is a serious issue in comparison to other all-time greats.)

Some thoughts here:

- In 06 he led a good offense with an above average offensive supporting cast. (Not a good offensive cast though). His 2 best offensive teammates each missed 23 games, Shaq and JWill.

- In 11 you could argue that he actually was the alpha offensively on this team as well. The result, a very good offense, besides those 3 getting acustomed to each other.

Head-Scratching years?!

- 09 and 10: Those casts were just blech. 2nd option: Jermaine was 31 (or aging Marion) and while his defense remained very valuable in his later years, his offense was really bad after those injuries. He was never an offensive stalwart to begin with, but his early 00s self would have made a more acceptable second option.
3rd option: young Beasley, while always talented he could never translate his talent to on court impact. Not even on offense.
In 09: 110.5 ORTG (would have been enough for 5th best offense) with him on the court, only 99.4 OTRG without. Shows the lack of offensive talent as well.
In 10: 111.9 ORTG (would have been enough for the 2nd best offense) with him on the court, only 95.9 OTRG without.

Now you might say Nash had 120+ ORTG while on the court etc. , but considering his main lineups (which looks worse than what some benches put out now offensively) I actually find this ORTG with him on the court very impressive.

- 2 other factor to consider: Coaching style (pace) and spacing

Coaching Style: The Heat were really really slow during those 2 years, which also limits Wade somehow, because he thrives even more in the open court than in the halfcourt. The roster was focused on defense, not offense. Something people always seem to overlook when comparing those ORTG and DRTG.
This was not an offensive minded roster.

Spacing: Wade is one of the best ever at the drive and kick game (or at least he should be). In order to maximize this approach you need shooters. The Heat were taking an average amount of 3s a game, but they sucked at it. This is a problem. They ranked 22nd and 17th in 3pt percentage. This makes a good offense impossible, if you lack an inside presence on top of that.

Prime Wade small scouting report:
- Exceptional first step and lane agility
- Great speed
- Great body control
- Good ball-handler, with a great array of moves to beat the defender off the bounce
- Good passer with good vision
- a bit too turnover prone
- OK to good from the midrange, good enough for the defenders to respect his shot
- lack of long range shooting
- excellent at drawing fouls
- good off-hand
- good cutter to the basket
- Good post game, can operate from there
- Nice touch on his floater

This does not look like a one trick pony. Extremely skilled at almost everything at offense sans the 3pt shot.


All in all, I see a great offensive talent that had crappy offensive teammates and therefore the team played slow and focused on defense.
I do not know for sure, but I can certainly envision Wade helping his team to go nuclear on offense, if he has capable teammates, an offensive minded coach and a high paced game.

[RebelWithACause]

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

Colts focused on the bolded, Mikan led the Minneapolis Lakers. Same franchise, different cities.

Anyone who's been here for any length of time should know the reason for my reply to the initial post:

In what way is Wade better than West?

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

The Heat had never won anything before Wade led them to a title in 2006, while the Lakers had already won five times before 1972. I'll point out that that isn't my criteria (which I've posted on several occasions, and that's nowhere on it), but that of the poster to whom penbeast0 posed his question.

I am well aware of that running gag

I am saying though, you could argue team :/ franchise. You said team, which is misleading.
That said poster usually refers to franchise and not team.

For example the Charlotte Hornets of the 90s are not the same theam as the one starting in 14/15.

[Baller2014]

Why would we be looking at Karl Malone's numbers at age 34-35 to determine his peak? If you want to look at his peak playoff numbers, go look at 88-93 (I posted them), or 92 (his peak), and not his finals numbers when he was 34-35. Dr J has him for peak to peak of course, but he's far more impressive than you're making him out to be.

[Doctor MJ]

But 2011 Wade wasn't just matching Mo Williams, he also had to match whatever Lebron was leaving behind in Cleveland. Which seemed to be a bit.

He was leaving behind good fit.

What was the worst thing about the fit in Miami? Wade.

Now to be clear what I mean here: If we formalize 'fit', it basically means the ability to match or surpass the expected performance based on the talent available. 2 guys who do better than you'd expect have synergy, 2 guys who do worse than you'd expect have redundancy. LeBron & Wade are very much a redundant duo.

I don't mean to imply that as anything super-damning about Wade, but the bottom line is that the goal with LeBron coming to Miami was not simply to match the offensive efficacy of Cleveland, and hence Wade being a part of that mere matching really shouldn't be seen as a huge accomplishment.

Of course Miami eventually did surpass those levels in '12-13, and Wade was a part of it, but that was despite Wade not looking like his prime self any more rather than Wade growing into something better.

[FJS]

There's any player like Karl Malone left:

Anybody is talking about how is PO play it's low.
How many players have scored 20 ppg or more in PO for 18 years like Karl? In fact he scored 26 points or more in 11 years, and more than 25 in 12.
Others greats offensive PF like Dirk has scored more than 26 8 times, and his FG% it's not better than Karl.
Barkley 3 times, and with not better FG% than Karl.
KG did it 1 time... and being the franchise player in MIN his resume was 45.8 FG%.

So there's so many punishment to Karl when other talk about how great Dirk or Chuck runs in PO were.
In fact 91-92 run by Karl Malone is as great of better than the best of Dirk or Chuck. The main difference, of course it's Karl (as Barkley) didn't get the ring.

My vote goes to KARL MALONE.

[Baller2014]

There's any player like Karl Malone left:

Anybody is talking about how is PO play it's low.
How many players have scored 20 ppg or more in PO for 18 years like Karl? In fact he scored 26 points or more in 11 years, and more than 25 in 12.
Others greats offensive PF like Dirk has scored more than 26 8 times, and his FG% it's not better than Karl.
Barkley 3 times, and with not better FG% than Karl.
KG did it 1 time... and being the franchise player in MIN his resume was 45.8 FG%.

So there's so many punishment to Karl when other talk about how great Dirk or Chuck runs in PO were.
In fact 91-92 run by Karl Malone is as great of better than the best of Dirk or Chuck. The main difference, of course it's Karl (as Barkley) didn't get the ring.

My vote goes to KARL MALONE.

The main difference is Karl Malone played brutally tough D in 1992, and Barkley and Dirk were not on the same planet defensively. Otherwise agree, Karl should have been voted in already IMO.

[FJS]

If we are talking about NBA, I think Dr J. don't have a better career than Karl Malone.

Dr J. peak was in ABA, and ABA was a different league, more offensive oriented and weaker than NBA. In only 5 years in ABA he made 2/5 of his total points. When he entered in NBA his averages drop big time. Altough he recovered by 79-80.

I know it's different, but we cannot rate Arvydas Sabonis or Drazen Petrovic for what they did in other leagues, because their position in the top 100 would change drastically. Maybe Drazen or Sabonis won't made this top 100 based in his NBA carreer. So I don't know why we should take ABA accolades as the same rating than NBA accolades.

[Quotatious]

Why would we be looking at Karl Malone's numbers at age 34-35 to determine his peak? If you want to look at his peak playoff numbers, go look at 88-93 (I posted them), or 92 (his peak), and not his finals numbers when he was 34-35. Dr J has him for peak to peak of course, but he's far more impressive than you're making him out to be.

There's a strong possibility that 1997 and 1998 were his best regular seasons, and 1998 is IMO right there with 1992 as his overall peak (better RS in 98 than 92, worse playoffs, close overall), and I think that his skillset was more refined when he was a 34-35 year old guy (jumpshot seems better, at least from what I've seen, as there are no numbers available to prove it), he was definitely a better passer in 98, and still surprisingly athletic for a guy his age. Damn, I'd say even 2000 might be a dark horse candidate - he still averaged about 26/10/4 that year, and played extremely well in the playoffs, 27/9/3 on 26 PER and over 58% TS. I wouldn't call 2000 his peak, as he wasn't as athletic as he was even in '98, and it seems pretty weird that a guy would peak at 36 years old, but statistically, it's right there.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Baller2014 can't accept that many think Malone peaked later than he does. I am among those who think mid to late 90's was Malone as his best as a player, and 1998 was his peak, imo. As strange as it is for a player to peak at 34, I believe Malone did. It's not that strange either considering I strongly believe Nash peaked in 2007 at 33 and Nique peaked in 1993 at 33 after the bad achilles injury.

[Baller2014]

Karl Malone's physical and statistical peak seem to overlap, so it's unsurprising that would be his actual peak. There are cases where players peak late, like Nash, but in those cases that shows statistically, team success wise, media recognition wise, eye test wise, etc. With Nash we also have a logical explanation for why he got better. He was being used sub-optimally in the Mavs system, and he went to a new team and got used optimally. In the case of Karl Malone there's no comparable set of facts. His stats back up the idea he was at his best from 25-30, and it's right in line with everything else. He got a little better at passing in his later years, partly helped by Hornacek arriving and giving him more easy assists with his excellent off ball shooting, but otherwise the Mailman's best performances come from that period.

His 1992 playoffs stands up well against most of the peaks of the remaining contenders (and the last 2 players to get voted in), and then you look at that incredible longevity and it's hard to see how he could be passed on here for anyone other than Erving. The logic that raises West above Malone is the logic which should have seen West voted on in the top 10 above Kobe and KG, and I didn't see a single list that had West above those 2 guys.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Malone's statistical peak was probably 1990(aside from the poor assist to turnover ratio), but he was as good as ever statistically in '97 and '98, especially accounting for Stockton, pace, league wide defenses and the team success it led to.

You think late 80's/early 90's was him at his best? Cool, you're entitled to your opinion, but what's annoying is how you seem to be acting like it's unthinkable that someone could disagree with you or that it's some established fact that late 80's/early 90's was his peak despite the fact that many disagree with you. I've explained on a number of occasions why I believe Malone was better in the mid to late 90's. My reasons have nothing to do with stats, and I can't see someone thinking they're invalid, even if they disagree with my conclusion.

[The Infamous1]

I honestly don't know how so many people have Malone over Barkley. Malone I better defensively but it's not like he's an anchor/gamechanger like a Garnett or a Duncan. He was simply a good post/man defender. Barkley has clear advantages at scoring/shot creation, rebounding, passing, Ball handling and is the better postseason performer. He's also more efficient despite the fact Malone played with a GOAT level playmaker in Stockton his entire peak /prime.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I honestly don't know how so many people have Malone over Barkley. Malone I better defensively but it's not like he's an anchor/gamechanger like a Garnett or a Duncan. He was simply a good post/man defender. Barkley has clear advantages at scoring/shot creation, rebounding, passing, Ball handling and is the better postseason performer. He's also more efficient despite the fact Malone played with a GOAT level playmaker in Stockton his entire peak /prime.

I agree 100%. I don't even consider Malone vs Barkley because Barkley was just the more dominant player to me, and at the thing each did best. I also have KG and Dirk over Malone.

[Baller2014]

The people who have Karl Malone this high usually think Stockton is pretty overrated. Not always, but I sure do.

[MacGill]

I have Dirk, Dr. J and West here. Great posts so far but going to continue to read up. I am having a hard time with West over Dirk and the Doctor right now.

[ThaRegul8r]

Why would we be looking at Karl Malone's numbers at age 34-35 to determine his peak? If you want to look at his peak playoff numbers, go look at 88-93 (I posted them), or 92 (his peak), and not his finals numbers when he was 34-35. Dr J has him for peak to peak of course, but he's far more impressive than you're making him out to be.

If you're responding to my post, quote me. Just like if I have anything to say regarding someone's post, I'm going to quote the post. I have no problem with directing anything I have to say to the poster in question, and letting them know I said it. When people don't quote me, I don't know if they're trying to stealth post, getting their say in without my ever knowing what was said.

You don't get to have it both ways and talk about Malone's "insane longevity" and then say it doesn't count. Malone was MVP of the league and MVP runner-up those seasons. If they "don't count," then what's the point of counting his longevity as a plus? Kareem was leading his team to a title and winning Finals MVP at 38. That's an example of his longevity actually helping his team. That caliber of performance was a boon to his team and helped his team win.

Second, I'm not everyone else. I said nothing about determining his peak, and I don't rank players based solely on peaks. I'm the only one who's repeated listed his criteria and referred back to it, so I don't just make stuff up as I go to suit an agenda, according to what would most favor "my guy." And that's in the list of criteria I posted.

[Baller2014]

You don't get to have it both ways and talk about Malone's "insane longevity" and then say it doesn't count. Malone was MVP of the league and MVP runner-up those seasons. If they "don't count," then what's the point of counting his longevity as a plus? Kareem was leading his team to a title and winning Finals MVP at 38. That's an example of his longevity actually helping his team. That caliber of performance was a boon to his team and helped his team win.

People keep making this point, and it's an odd one to make. Nobody is saying Karl Malone was a different player in 97 and 98, he was still more or less the same player, just a little worse... that's what peak v.s prime is. You're still you in your prime, it's just there are some years that are better than your usual prime years... we call those years your peak ones.

Karl Malone was still playing like an MVP in 1998, so of course that helps him. It's just Karl Malone in 1998 wasn't quite as good as Karl Malone in 1992 (or indeed, 88-93 as a whole).

[DQuinn1575]

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

So does that mean you think a player is greater if he led the Clippers to a title, but not the Hawks or the Kings since the franchises won in the 50s in St Louis and Rochester?

Frankly, I have no patience for posts like these. None. I wonder if people on the internet actually take the time to read anything before posting. For had you continued to read a mere four posts down from the post you quoted, you would have seen this post:

Colts focused on the bolded, Mikan led the Minneapolis Lakers. Same franchise, different cities.

Anyone who's been here for any length of time should know the reason for my reply to the initial post:

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

The Heat had never won anything before Wade led them to a title in 2006, while the Lakers had already won five times before 1972. I'll point out that that isn't my criteria (which I've posted on several occasions, and that's nowhere on it), but that of the poster to whom penbeast0 posed his question.

Bolded and underlined for those who may be slow on the uptake. You had time to read it (with it being only four posts below the one you quoted), and thus could have quickly deleted your post and saved the embarrassment. But apparently you stopped at that post without reading further. You've only been here since February, so you don't know why I replied as I did to the initial post. You were so eager to show me up that you didn't bother to read that that isn't even my criteria, so, no, I don't "think a player is greater if he led the Clippers to a title, but not the Hawks or the Kings since the franchises won in the 50s in St Louis and Rochester."

And yet people will get their feelings hurt and attempt to rationalize it away while sending an ad hominem my way when I say that was a stupid question seeing how the answer to that question was already there for all to see, eliminating the need to even ask it.

I apologize -My intent was to address whomever the original poster was. If that person is voting, I would like to know if that is one of their criterion; I don't know if that person is voting.

[ThaRegul8r]

Computer problems. Double post.