RealGM Top 100 List #14

[Baller2014]

The teams who made the finals prior to 1997 were better than the teams he played for. I don't think that's entirely on Karl Malone, or rather it's no more on Karl Malone than it is on West for some of the years the Lakers got eliminated early (or arguably with a better team). West generally had better team mates, and so his team generally had better chances to make the finals.

[HeartBreakKid]

The Celtics were a great defense... for that era. That's the whole problem with West's argument; his era. He played a lot of his career in a quite weak era, which had a pace that inflated his stats. I think he deserves to be a top 20 player anyway, because of how he succeeded in that era, but this seems too high.

I posted a video of Karl's D back on page 1. He wasn't an inside anchor, but he was everything else you could want from a big on D (who isn't a freak like KG or Rodman). The guy was an amazing defender. I'm dubious of West's impact on D in the modern era at all. It certainly wouldn't be anywhere near Malone's impact. West would certainly be at least neutral, it depends if you were hiding him on D and whether he's defending 1's or 2's. Probably a plus defender with smart steals and switches every now and again, but a guy at his position can't influence a team on D like Malone can.

So at what point of time can we not put the asterisk of "his era" when discussing players? At what point are players not punished for their era in your opinion?

[Baller2014]

So at what point of time can we not put the asterisk of "his era" when discussing players? At what point are players not punished for their era in your opinion?

I certainly think the NBA had evolved a lot by the end of West's career, so say 1970 onwards. The pace was still a bit of a factor, but the level of competition was not as problematic as the 60's had mostly been. There are reasons for this I go into in depth in earlier threads (more blacks, more professional league, etc).

[HeartBreakKid]

So at what point of time can we not put the asterisk of "his era" when discussing players? At what point are players not punished for their era in your opinion?

I certainly think the NBA had evolved a lot by the end of West's career, so say 1970 onwards. The pace was still a bit of a factor, but the level of competition was not as problematic as the 60's had mostly been.

Hm, but West was still a great player in the 70s despite being slowed down by the injures he had sustained earlier in his career. If we've already seen West in what you would consider to be a modern era, what's the problem?

Also, wouldn't the competition be worse, as many notable players were now in the ABA as opposed to the NBA?

[rich316]

Going with Dirk Nowitzki again.

His unique abilities give an offense a higher ceiling of "unguardability" over everybody else left, IMO. Barkley was better on offense, but his defensive deficiencies make him still a few spots from serious discussion. Dirk always takes the easy big man assignment, true, but his intelligence and competitiveness make him an adequate team defender. I don't think that a big man like K. Malone (relatively low scoring efficiency, relatively low universal defensive impact) translates to consistent title-winning basketball as the #1 option. I almost went with Moses Malone here, but I think what Dirk does on offense is just more valuable, and Moses isn't a good enough defender to close that gap. I was also really liking West a few threads ago, but I've started to re-evaluate how valuable he is due to durability issues.

[john248]

Ok Baller2014, you hate the 60s. That's all it boils down to. Others value it, some more than the 70s.

[trex_8063]

Largest criticisms of Malone are that his lack of iso-scoring ability causes him to disappear in the playoffs, though if we look at his playoff performance over an extended-prime (some peri-prime) sample ('88-'03--->SIXTEEN YEARS, which is insane, btw), his per 100 possessions in playoffs are:
34.7 pts/14.4 reb/4.2 ast/1.7 stl/1.0 blk/3.8 tov on .530 TS%.
22.3 PER while avg a big 41.5 mpg in the playoffs......again: over SIXTEEN YEARS.

Is this a drop-off from his rs? Yes it is. But two points to make: 1) the above is still relatively elite,

Is it? That's around league-average scoring efficiency and his postseason ORTG is 106, or more fairly, 108 from 86-98. Volume scoring at that level of efficacy isn't really elite. League average ORTG was 107.5 from 86-98. That really isn't a depiction of elite offense. In fact, it's definitively mediocre. Now, if you look at that ORTG and then his postseason ORTG (to account for the drop-off in league average after 93),

Few minor points......

bballref puts his post-season ORtg in the 16-year span (SIXTEEN!....yes I'm shamelessly playing the longevity card there ) at 107 (not 106); the cumulative league avg (in rs anyway) was 106.2 (though not sure if league avg doesn't drop in the post-season, too; is playoff-only team ORtg/DRtg data available anywhere?).

And to be fair, it's a bit of a stretch for me to call '02 and '03 part of his prime (even an "extended" prime). If we shorten our scrutinized period to a 14-year stretch ('88-'01), his avg post-season ORtg is 108 vs. 106.5 cumulative league av thru that time.
So his avg ORtg either way is at least marginally better than the league avg over that span (though it's true he had marginally more years/games UNDER the league avg---again, the rs league average, anyway---rather than over).

Some details on who he was facing......
Here's how far the Jazz got each year and a look at the opponent's league rank in DRtg's for each round:
'88--->WCSF (10th and 9th of 23)
'89--->1st round (12th of 25)
'90--->1st round (6th of 27)
'91--->WCSF (8th and 3rd of 27)
'92--->WCF (5th, 15th, and 3rd of 27)
'93--->1st round (2nd of 27)
'94--->WCF (9th, 5th, and 2nd of 27)
'95--->1st round (12th of 27)
'96--->WCF (5th, 3rd, and 2nd of 29)
'97--->Finals (16th, 8th, 10th, and 4th of 29)
'98--->Finals (25th, 2nd, 11th, and 3rd of 29)
'99--->WCSF (18th and 6th of 29)
'00--->WCSF (15th and 5th of 29)
'01--->1st round (13th of 29)
'02--->1st round (6th of 29)
'03--->1st round (15th of 29)

Played a "top half" defense in 26 out of 32 playoff series (81.3%), was facing a top 6 D in the league 16 of 32 times (50%); facing a top 3 defense 8 of 32 series's (25% of the time).

Obv you're going to be facing tougher defenses (on average) in the playoffs, but that's slightly tougher than some of his common comparisons.......

Charles Barkley, from '86-'97, for instance: faced a "top half" defense in the post-season 17 of 20 times (85%--slightly more than Malone, however......), he faced a top 6 defense just 7 of 20 times (35%), and a top 3 defense 4 of 20 (20%).
Dirk, between '01-'14: faced a top half defense in the post season 20 of 25 times (80%), a top 7 defense (notice I even widened the second grouping from top 6 to top 7, acknowledging the marginally larger league during Dirk's career) 12 of 25 times (48%), and a top 3 defense 6 times (24%)---->admittedly they're near-negligible differences; but each one is marginally LESS that what Malone faced.

Also consider---from a match-up standpoint---who Malone primarily had guarding him and/or the paint in these playoff series's. He had primarily guarding him:
Tim Duncan (1x)
Shawn Kemp (3x)
Buck Williams (3x)
Dennis Rodman (3x)
Rasheed Wallace (2x)
Horace Grant (1x)
Bo Outlaw (1x---relevant, I think, as +/- data would indicate MAJOR defensive impact)
A.C. Green (1x)
---15 of 32 he was primarily being guarded by a good-to-elite defensive PF (46.9%).

He also faced the following defensive centers (as starters):
Dikembe Mutombo (1x)
David Robinson (3x)
Hakeem Olajuwon (4x)
Shaquille O'Neal (2x)
Vlade Divac (3x---I bring him up because he to fairly consistently showed biggish defensive impact based on +/- data)
Shawn Bradley (1x--->the year Malone faced him he had a 96 DRtg and avg 2.8 bpg in limited minutes (5.9 per 100 possessions!....so I thought relevant).
---So facing a starting center who was very good to elite defensively 14 of 32 times (43.8%).

Compare that to Dirk, for instance:
Faced an very good-to-elite defensive PF in 11 of 25 series's (44%).
Dirk faced a very good-to-elite defensive C in 8 of 25 series's (32%), which is admittedly a little less relevant for Dirk, as he can function as a perimeter scorer, too.


Anyway, all of this to suggest that perhaps Malone was faced with elite-level defense a little "more than his fair share of the time". Good defense is going to break down offensive schemes. And Malone wasn't as good an iso scorer as either Barkley or Nowitzki (no one is denying this) to compensate.

But at any rate, this particular criticism is all zeroed in on basically just one stat. The per 100 numbers were still elite, even if the efficiency was lacking. While his efficiency in the playoffs often wasn't special, consider that Malone putting up MASSIVE volume on average efficiency was generally in the Jazz's best interest. What else were they going to do? The rest of the team, if forced to increase volume in the playoffs against these elite defenses noted on above.....I'd wager efficiency would have been worse. The only potential exception is perhaps Stockton? It's an interesting hypothetical: what would have happened in some of those series if Stockton had started doing some hero ball.

The 22.3 PER (especially on 41.5 mpg, and again: especially considering this covers a 16-year span) is also fairly near elite for the playoffs. Over the shorter 14-year span indicated about his cumulative playoff PER was 22.7 (in 41.6 mpg). Those are big numbers for such sizable chunks of time.

And his playoff DRtg over either period was 103 (at least marginally better than both of Barkley and Nowitzki, fwiw)......which, where defense is concerned, this is consistent reputation, accolades, and the eye-test.

Anyway, all this is just for whoever's consideration.
And all this being said, I'm still very close to switching my vote to Erving.

[Doctor MJ]

Not trying to derail, but I find this interesting.

Would a small international player project be something to start with?

Perhaps a top 10 international player ranking so people like myself have a foundation to work with?

It would be a good side project to help provide a base for people to factor in with other larger ones. Like Dirk or Sabonis, I'm sure there were international players who would rank but unlike them they never played NBA ball. This would take us into Olympic and world championship games to review as well, it would be different and people would learn a lot of new things.

Could be cool, you know we have an International ball forum? I think that would be the place for it if you got the mods involved over there.

[ceiling raiser]

I'm still leaning Dirk here, but Dr. J is intriguing. I've generally held him in high regard and could see myself voting for him.

I'll have to give this thread a closer read, but has anyone speculated as to how would modern spacing and zone defenses would affect West and Erving? There are some obvious points (both would be great team defenders because of athleticism/length, more space for Dr. J to drive, and West would keep defenses honest with his outside shot).

Actually, how do we feel about West's range? I know there's anecdotal evidence of him hitting some super long shots, but are there any mentions of his ability to hit from the corner (I think I've heard this specifically about Oscar, so maybe it was said for West as well) or anything else (I know the ABA called their three, with the same line as today, the "25-footer" at times, maybe that language was used to describe West's jumper at times as well)?

[Baller2014]

Hm, but West was still a great player in the 70s despite being slowed down by the injures he had sustained earlier in his career. If we've already seen West in what you would consider to be a modern era, what's the problem?

Also, wouldn't the competition be worse, as many notable players were now in the ABA as opposed to the NBA?

I cover on page 1 why the ABA was not "worse" in the time that Erving was playing in it.

As for West, we did indeed see him in the modern era, and he was a great player in it. I already said I'd take him in the top 20. But he was not the player he is being made out to be. The only playoff run from 1970 onwards that resembles what he was doing earlier is in 1970, where he was playing 46+ minutes to put up a stat line of 31-4-8 on 23 shots per game. Needless to say, Karl Malone puts up better numbers than that on less shots, better efficiency and playing monster D. The Lakers were successful with West playing a lesser role from 1970-ish onwards, he was no longer the mega star dropping big stats. Sure, that's injuries too, but looking at the teams the Lakers played in order to get to the finals in the 60's (back when West was the man) it's not really comparable at all to the early 70's Lakers successes (when he took a backseat).

What did West do from 1970 onwards that I'm supposed to be so impressed by exactly?

[HeartBreakKid]

I cover on page 1 why the ABA was not "worse" in the time that Erving was playing in it.

I am assuming you misread what I said. ABA is "not worse" than what? I didn't compare the ABA to the NBA.

[Baller2014]

I cover on page 1 why the ABA was not "worse" in the time that Erving was playing in it.

I am assuming you misread what I said. ABA is "not worse" than what? I didn't compare the ABA to the NBA.

No, I didn't misread it at all. The talent base had grown exponentially since the early 60's. Having 2 leagues in the 70's split that talent in half, but the talent increase was so significant that I don't see it having mattered; said talent was still way higher than the start of West's career. Again, I've covered this point in threads throughout this project, and stats and other stuff have been posted. Things like the fact that black players were extremely rare in the late 50's and start of the 60's, but were playing 61% of all minutes by 1970. The fact the NBA had been a pro-league for a while, and was getting far more talent from an early age, and more time and money spent on training that talent. Again, I think this is a lot less of an issue for West than someone like Pettit. West would have been a great player in any era, but the pace distorted stats (and lower level of competition) absolutely should be taken into account here. People are quoting his finals stats verbatim, like we should take them literally, which is absurd. Alot of West's finals runs involved his stacked team winning about 45 games, and then crushing Detroit/St Louis/Baltimore in round 1, then bam... you're in the finals.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #14 - Dr. J

He was the ABA. He revitalized the NBA. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. J.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nju01.html

http://www.remembertheaba.com/tributema ... rving.html

- 16 year career (5 ABA, 11 NBA)
- 2x ABA champion, 1x NBA champion
- 3x ABA MVP, 1x NBA MVP (2 other top 3 finishes, 2 other top 5 finishes)
- 5x all ABA (4 1st, 1 2nd), 7x all NBA (5 1st, 2 2nd)

First post (click spoiler):

Spoiler:

For years, erving's ABA career was looked upon as either insignificant to some, or far less significant than what he accomplished in the NBA. I've always felt he never got a fair shake as a result, although it seems he's more appreciated here than by the general public.

Using DQuinn's adjustment breakdown (http://www.apbr.org/oct2000.html - see "HOW GOOD WAS THE ABA"), I've adjusted erving's ABA stats from 72-76 to reflect the NBA equivalent and compared them to 77-81:



Interestingly, his TS% in his first 5 ABA seasons (55.8%) was identical to his first 5 NBA seasons. He remained an efficient player transitioning from the ABA to NBA.

And while it's a much smaller sample size, let's look at the playoffs while we're at it:



His ABA playoff TS% was 57.5%, and his NBA playoff TS% (77-81) was 55.3%. If I have time, i'll go back and do this per 100 possessions, but i was more curious about the actual stats to boot. Yes, there's still a decrease in production, but nothing that screams, "Man, this guy was really just an avg player masquerading as a superstar in the ABA".

It's very possible that he peaked earlier than some other players do, and he would've performed just as well in the NBA in say 76. By all accounts, he was an absolute monster of a player that season, and from the games i've seen, there was no denying that.

74 ABA Playoffs

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLWGRDjuAIw[/youtube]

76 ABA Finals Game 6 vs. Nuggets

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qNqZVklGm0[/youtube]

The decrease in scoring production can also be attributed to his role changing when he went from the nets to the sixers. While he still led the sixers in scoring in 77, they had 3 other bonafide scorers in McGinnis, Doug Collins and World B Free:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1977.html

Gene Shue specifically asked him to take on more of a "jack of all trades" role as opposed to putting up big scoring #s, and erving followed suit. They would end up getting upset by the blazers in the finals, but making the jump to the NBA and going to the finals out of the gate was impressive nonetheless. He avg'd ~30 PPG, 7 RPG, 5 APG, 2.7 SPG and 1 BPG on 54% FG and 86% FT, which included a 40 pt performance in the 2 pt game 6 loss. He quickly made his mark on the NBA.

I think what he accomplished as far as winning and production is concerned should still be valued highly regardless of the league. I have no problem with weighing the ABA less, but his overall body of work is still substantial. He was also the face of an entire league that struggled to keep its head above water for its entire existence. That's a lot of pressure for a guy who could've just been another all star in the more stable NBA.

As his NBA career went on, he was still an extremely productive player (transcending the 2 leagues winning MVP in 81 at age 30) who went on many deep playoff runs. It's always my contention that great players need good players around them to win championships. Would Magic have still won rings without kareem? Yes, possibly, but very unlikely that he wins 5. Sixers finally got over the hump when they traded for moses, and erving achieved the elusive NBA title. They also steamrolled the playoffs that season going 12-1 (almost "fo fo fo"!) He had a solid finals putting up ~19 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 5 APG, 1 SPG and 2.8 BPG on 47% from the field and 80% from the line.

83 Finals Game 1 vs. Lakers

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVWtgBLprBc[/youtube]

He had solid longevity, too. In his 16th season, he was still putting up ~17 PPG, 4 RPG, 3 APG, 1 SPG and 1.6 BPG on 53% TS. He retired as a productive player as opposed to fizzling his way out. It wasn't nearly as common back then to play 15+ seasons, either. Outisde of baylor, erving really set the standard for the athletic wing like we'd never seen before. He would see a fleet of players (including jordan) try to emulate the way he played the game, and that means something. When you combine that with the fact that he was an elite player in his own right, I think he's more than deserving at this spot.

Career Highlights (well worth the watch)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAvhvpQ7DSw[/youtube]

2nd post (click spoiler):

Spoiler:

To piggyback on my point about Gene Shue asking erving to play a different role when he came to the sixers, take another look at the per 100 possession figures:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... poss::none

Shue was fired 6 games into the 78 season, and over the next few seasons under cunningham, we saw his per 100 production trend back up closer to his ABA #s, which eventually fell in line with his 81 MVP season.

Rod Thorn as an assistant coach for the Nets:

What stands out most in your mind from your time coaching Julius Erving as an assistant coach with the New York Nets?

I think that he was the best teammate of all the players I’ve been involved with in 40-plus years of NBA basketball. He was our leading scorer, our leading rebounder, our leading shot blocker, our leading assist guy—you name it, he led our team in it, plus he was the leader of our team. He guarded the best forward every night, whether it was a small forward or a big forward. He took most of the big shots. Not only was he a great player, but more importantly he was a great teammate.

I want to follow up on two of the things that you mentioned. You talked about him guarding the top forward on the other team. I think that a lot of people don’t realize that. Elaborate a little bit on the subject of Julius as a defensive player. I think that is a really overlooked aspect of his game and his skill set.

He had great lateral quickness and he was a tremendous jumper. He was a tough guy—that is one thing that is not talked about that much when you talk about Julius, because of his great athleticism, but he was a tough guy. I mean he would physically get after guys and play hard. He took a challenge. He played 43-44 minutes a game for us and guarded the best guy on the other team every night and was our leading scorer, so the energy that he expended during a game was much more than the average player did. It was just phenomenal what he did.

On Erving's truly dominant 76 finals performance:

All of that was just a warm-up for Dr. J's final dramatic operation in the ABA, when he led the New York Nets to the 1976 championship over the Denver Nuggets, topping both teams in all five statistical categories during that series: 37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg and 2.2 bpg. Performances like that inspired the two quotes that best summarize Erving's impact on the game: ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere once said, "Plenty of guys have been 'The Franchise.' For us, Dr. J is 'The League'"; Pat Williams, the 76ers General Manager who acquired Erving shortly after the 1976 ABA Finals, later said of Erving, "There's never been anyone like him, including Michael. If Julius was in his prime now, in this era of intense electronic media, he would be beyond comprehension. He would blow everybody away."

SI's John Papanek on Erving at his peak in the ABA:

It has been said that unless one saw him play in the ABA, one never saw the real Dr. J. And it's true. In May 1976, he was still a curiosity to most of America, just like the ABA's red-white-and-blue circus ball and the three-point field goal. That spring, nobody outside of New York or Denver (except subscribers to a fledgling cable-TV service called Home Box Office) saw, during one ABA championship series, the greatest individual performance by a basketball player at any level anywhere--ABA, NBA, BAA or UCLA.

What the Doctor did for the New York Nets against the Denver Nuggets in that playoff series was score 226 points, grab 85 rebounds and block 13 shots. But the numbers don't tell the story. You had to see the man and hear the music.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/201 ... rt-ii.html

Yeah, I know, there's always going to be this mythic aura around Erving, and that can cut into analyzing his career clearly. That said, there's a good reason for it, and from everything i've seen over the years, it's relatively justified. Of course you're going to get the people involved around the time he was coming up to speak the highest praises of him, so you take that with a grain of salt.

Notable game footage:

1980 ECF vs. Celtics -- 28 PTS, 11 REB, 7 AST, 5 STL, 3 TO, 13-22 FG, 2-3 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30PHI.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs[/youtube]

1983 ECF vs. Bucks -- 24 PTS, 10 REB, 3 AST, 3 BLK, 8 TO, 10-19 FG, 4-6 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80PHI.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVeAzg1C1Y[/youtube]

79-80 PHI at SAS, The Doctor vs. The Ice Man -- 24 PTS, 5 REB, 4 AST, 2 STL, 3 TO, 9-17 FG, 6-7 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90SAS.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em445cuhQmI[/youtube]

Other notable games:

82-83 Playoffs G1 vs. MIL -- 34 PTS, 8 REB, 7 AST, 1 BLK, 12-19 FG, 10-12 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50PHI.html

82-83 vs. DET -- 44 PTS, 11 REB, 7 AST, 8 BLK, 20/29 FG, 4-5 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10PHI.html

83-84 vs. HOU -- 42 PTS, 7 REB, 6 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 7 TO, 15-25 FG, 1-1 3PT, 11-13 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80PHI.html

Some people seem to put a lot of value in whether or not a player got upset in the playoffs. SRS of Philly / their opponent starting in 77 until they won the championship in 83:

77 - PHI 3.78 (3rd), POR 5.39 (1st) FINALS
78 - PHI 4.87 (1st), WAS .82 (7th) bullets won championship
79 - PHI 1.74 (9th), SAS, 4.97 (1st)
80 - PHI 4.04 (4th), LAL 5.39 (2nd) FINALS
81 - PHI 7.76 (1st), BOS 6.05 (3rd) celtics won championship
82 - PHI 5.74 (2nd), LAL 4.37 (4th) FINALS

So for the most part, philly went as far as reasonably expected in the playoffs until they won in 83. When they did lose to a team with a lower SRS, that team went on to win the championship. Not to mention 3 finals appearances in 6th years is nothing to scoff at. Bottom line, erving was rather successful with the teams he had around him until 83 when it all came together.

I'd probably be voting for west (or dirk, maybe) right after erving, so I almost see it coming down to personal preference. West had consistent elite production for a solid # of seasons, and faced one of the toughest dynasties throughout his career. I think erving in his own right had a spectacular career dominating in both the ABA and NBA, and his influence on the game gives him the edge for me. Also, just as west eventually teamed up with wilt to put them over the top, it's been noted that erving never had a big man alongside him to go up against the likes of walton and kareem until moses came along.

As for (karl) malone, i decided to look at his first round exits, and how he performed in those series overall as well as elimination games. I left out his rookie year as I don't think it's relevant unless you somehow break the mold and have an effective playoff run as a rookie. Last column is net OFF/DEF rating:



Overall, malone produced well in these first round exits, but his efficiency was average to below average in 3 of the 5 series. Also, he only posted a positive net OFF/DEF rating in 1 of the 5 series, and 1 of the 5 elimination games. There are no major red flags here, but I'd at least point to this as part of the criticism he gets for his overall post season performance.

[Quotatious]

I'm still leaning Dirk here, but Dr. J is intriguing. I've generally held him in high regard and could see myself voting for him.

I'll have to give this thread a closer read, but has anyone speculated as to how would modern spacing and zone defenses would affect West and Erving? There are some obvious points (both would be great team defenders because of athleticism/length, more space for Dr. J to drive, and West would keep defenses honest with his outside shot).

Actually, how do we feel about West's range? I know there's anecdotal evidence of him hitting some super long shots, but are there any mentions of his ability to hit from the corner (I think I've heard this specifically about Oscar, so maybe it was said for West as well) or anything else (I know the ABA called their three, with the same line as today, the "25-footer" at times, maybe that language was used to describe West's jumper at times as well)?

Surprisingly hard to find anything really informative about his shooting range, something that wouldn't seem like a narrative. I guess Dipper could find something in his articles from the 60s (or perhaps 80s/90s, after the 3-point line has been introduced, maybe West himself talking about how he'd adjust to it?)

Anyway, there's a video similar to the Wilt scouting tool that we analyzed a few months ago:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtiJrwCpAY[/youtube]

Obviously there's nothing really great to see here, just some highlights, but based on that, he seems like more of a 15-18 feet shooter, but very comfortable with any kind of a midrange jumper - spin, turnaround, fadeaway, pull-up - everything looks easy for him, and with his release and pump fake (reminds me of Kobe in a triple-threat position with that pump fake, only with the difference that Jerry seems to attack more from the perimeter, use the pump fake and shoot, rather than jab step, like Kobe, or even Bird or Melo) usually allows him to get his shot off pretty clean, defenders' presence doesn't even seem to bother him much.

I remember seeing some clips of West (sorry, unable to find it anymore) shooting from about 23-25 feet a few times (from near the sideline as well as in a straight line to the basket from far beyond the top of the key) when the paint was too packed and no one was able to get back to contest his shot, after an inside-out pass from the post, so it seems like he used that shot fairly occassionally, when left wide open. Still, his release really seems to be so effortless that it's easy for me to imagine that he wouldn't have any problems shooting it from the 3-point line on a consistent basis - the thing is that taking very long shots wasn't particularly encouraged by coaches those days (pretty surprising, knowing how the 60s were so tough to score inside, particularly for guards, because teams focused heavily on the interior), and with no 3 point line, no additional benefit of taking that shot (other than spacing the floor) had existed.

What's pretty weird is that most mentions of the 50s or 60s players taking shots from today's 3 point land is about bigmen - Schayes, Lucas, Pettit, even DeBusschere, but no one really talks about West's (or Hal Greer's, who's often been praised for his long range shooting over the years) range.

[ThaRegul8r]

Spoiler:

Notable game footage:

1980 ECF vs. Celtics -- 28 PTS, 11 REB, 7 AST, 5 STL, 3 TO, 13-22 FG, 2-3 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30PHI.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwqGwQEDbs[/youtube]

1983 ECF vs. Bucks -- 24 PTS, 10 REB, 3 AST, 3 BLK, 8 TO, 10-19 FG, 4-6 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80PHI.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpVeAzg1C1Y[/youtube]

79-80 PHI at SAS, The Doctor vs. The Ice Man -- 24 PTS, 5 REB, 4 AST, 2 STL, 3 TO, 9-17 FG, 6-7 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90SAS.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em445cuhQmI[/youtube]

Other notable games:

82-83 Playoffs G1 vs. MIL -- 34 PTS, 8 REB, 7 AST, 1 BLK, 12-19 FG, 10-12 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50PHI.html

82-83 vs. DET -- 44 PTS, 11 REB, 7 AST, 8 BLK, 20/29 FG, 4-5 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10PHI.html

83-84 vs. HOU -- 42 PTS, 7 REB, 6 AST, 2 STL, 4 BLK, 7 TO, 15-25 FG, 1-1 3PT, 11-13 FT

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80PHI.html

It's actually funny that you've posted notable games of Erving's, as I've compiled a list of Erving's notable playoff games for the first ten years of his career—before Moses's arrival, which I'm about to publish.

[Moonbeam]

Largest criticisms of Malone are that his lack of iso-scoring ability causes him to disappear in the playoffs, though if we look at his playoff performance over an extended-prime (some peri-prime) sample ('88-'03--->SIXTEEN YEARS, which is insane, btw), his per 100 possessions in playoffs are:
34.7 pts/14.4 reb/4.2 ast/1.7 stl/1.0 blk/3.8 tov on .530 TS%.
22.3 PER while avg a big 41.5 mpg in the playoffs......again: over SIXTEEN YEARS.

Is this a drop-off from his rs? Yes it is. But two points to make: 1) the above is still relatively elite,

Is it? That's around league-average scoring efficiency and his postseason ORTG is 106, or more fairly, 108 from 86-98. Volume scoring at that level of efficacy isn't really elite. League average ORTG was 107.5 from 86-98. That really isn't a depiction of elite offense. In fact, it's definitively mediocre. Now, if you look at that ORTG and then his postseason ORTG (to account for the drop-off in league average after 93),

Few minor points......

bballref puts his post-season ORtg in the 16-year span (SIXTEEN!....yes I'm shamelessly playing the longevity card there ) at 107 (not 106); the cumulative league avg (in rs anyway) was 106.2 (though not sure if league avg doesn't drop in the post-season, too; is playoff-only team ORtg/DRtg data available anywhere?).

And to be fair, it's a bit of a stretch for me to call '02 and '03 part of his prime (even an "extended" prime). If we shorten our scrutinized period to a 14-year stretch ('88-'01), his avg post-season ORtg is 108 vs. 106.5 cumulative league av thru that time.
So his avg ORtg either way is at least marginally better than the league avg over that span (though it's true he had marginally more years/games UNDER the league avg---again, the rs league average, anyway---rather than over).

Some details on who he was facing......
Here's how far the Jazz got each year and a look at the opponent's league rank in DRtg's for each round:
'88--->WCSF (10th and 9th of 23)
'89--->1st round (12th of 25)
'90--->1st round (6th of 27)
'91--->WCSF (8th and 3rd of 27)
'92--->WCF (5th, 15th, and 3rd of 27)
'93--->1st round (2nd of 27)
'94--->WCF (9th, 5th, and 2nd of 27)
'95--->1st round (12th of 27)
'96--->WCF (5th, 3rd, and 2nd of 29)
'97--->Finals (16th, 8th, 10th, and 4th of 29)
'98--->Finals (25th, 2nd, 11th, and 3rd of 29)
'99--->WCSF (18th and 6th of 29)
'00--->WCSF (15th and 5th of 29)
'01--->1st round (13th of 29)
'02--->1st round (6th of 29)
'03--->1st round (15th of 29)

Played a "top half" defense in 26 out of 32 playoff series (81.3%), was facing a top 6 D in the league 16 of 32 times (50%); facing a top 3 defense 8 of 32 series's (25% of the time).

Obv you're going to be facing tougher defenses (on average) in the playoffs, but that's slightly tougher than some of his common comparisons.......

Charles Barkley, from '86-'97, for instance: faced a "top half" defense in the post-season 17 of 20 times (85%--slightly more than Malone, however......), he faced a top 6 defense just 7 of 20 times (35%), and a top 3 defense 4 of 20 (20%).
Dirk, between '01-'14: faced a top half defense in the post season 20 of 25 times (80%), a top 7 defense (notice I even widened the second grouping from top 6 to top 7, acknowledging the marginally larger league during Dirk's career) 12 of 25 times (48%), and a top 3 defense 6 times (24%)---->admittedly they're near-negligible differences; but each one is marginally LESS that what Malone faced.

Also consider---from a match-up standpoint---who Malone primarily had guarding him and/or the paint in these playoff series's. He had primarily guarding him:
Tim Duncan (1x)
Shawn Kemp (3x)
Buck Williams (3x)
Dennis Rodman (3x)
Rasheed Wallace (2x)
Horace Grant (1x)
Bo Outlaw (1x---relevant, I think, as +/- data would indicate MAJOR defensive impact)
A.C. Green (1x)
---15 of 32 he was primarily being guarded by a good-to-elite defensive PF (46.9%).

He also faced the following defensive centers (as starters):
Dikembe Mutombo (1x)
David Robinson (3x)
Hakeem Olajuwon (4x)
Shaquille O'Neal (2x)
Vlade Divac (3x---I bring him up because he to fairly consistently showed biggish defensive impact based on +/- data)
Shawn Bradley (1x--->the year Malone faced him he had a 96 DRtg and avg 2.8 bpg in limited minutes (5.9 per 100 possessions!....so I thought relevant).
---So facing a starting center who was very good to elite defensively 14 of 32 times (43.8%).

Compare that to Dirk, for instance:
Faced an very good-to-elite defensive PF in 11 of 25 series's (44%).
Dirk faced a very good-to-elite defensive C in 8 of 25 series's (32%), which is admittedly a little less relevant for Dirk, as he can function as a perimeter scorer, too.


Anyway, all of this to suggest that perhaps Malone was faced with elite-level defense a little "more than his fair share of the time". Good defense is going to break down offensive schemes. And Malone wasn't as good an iso scorer as either Barkley or Nowitzki (no one is denying this) to compensate.

But at any rate, this particular criticism is all zeroed in on basically just one stat. The per 100 numbers were still elite, even if the efficiency was lacking. While his efficiency in the playoffs often wasn't special, consider that Malone putting up MASSIVE volume on average efficiency was generally in the Jazz's best interest. What else were they going to do? The rest of the team, if forced to increase volume in the playoffs against these elite defenses noted on above.....I'd wager efficiency would have been worse. The only potential exception is perhaps Stockton? It's an interesting hypothetical: what would have happened in some of those series if Stockton had started doing some hero ball.

The 22.3 PER (especially on 41.5 mpg, and again: especially considering this covers a 16-year span) is also fairly near elite for the playoffs. Over the shorter 14-year span indicated about his cumulative playoff PER was 22.7 (in 41.6 mpg). Those are big numbers for such sizable chunks of time.

And his playoff DRtg over either period was 103 (at least marginally better than both of Barkley and Nowitzki, fwiw)......which, where defense is concerned, this is consistent reputation, accolades, and the eye-test.

Anyway, all this is just for whoever's consideration.
And all this being said, I'm still very close to switching my vote to Erving.

Thanks for the detailed list of Karl Malone's playoff opponents.

I'll provide a similar one for Jerry West.

1960-61: 22.9 PPG-8.7 RPG-5.3 APG on .490 FG/.726 FT/.553 TS (RS 17.6-7.7-4.2 on .419/.666/.468)

3-2 win against Detroit (+3.5 DRating: 6th of 8)
3-4 loss against St. Louis (-3.4: 2nd of 8)

1961-62: 31.5 PPG-6.8 RPG-4.4 APG on .465 FG/.807 FT/.544 TS (RS 30.8-7.9-5.4 on .445/.769/.524)

4-2 win against Detroit (+0.6: 5th of 9)
3-4 loss against Boston (-8.5: 1st of 9)

1962-63: 27.8 PPG-8.2 RPG-4.7 APG on .503 FG/.740 FT/.548 TS (RS 27.1-7.0-5.6 on .461/.778/.523)

4-3 win against St. Louis (-2.6: 2nd of 9)
2-4 loss against Boston (-8.5: 1st of 9)

1963-64: 31.2 PPG-7.2 RPG-3.4 APG on .496 FG/.792 FT/.564 TS (RS 28.7-6.0-5.6 on .484/.832/.562)

2-3 loss against St. Louis (-0.6: 3rd of 9)

1964-65: 40.6 PPG-5.7 RPG-5.3 APG on .442 FG/.890 FT/.534 TS (RS 31.0-6.0-4.9 on .497/.821/.572)

4-2 win against Baltimore (+5.1: 9th of 9)
1-4 loss against Boston (-9.4: 1st of 9)

1965-66: 34.2 PPG-6.3 RPG-5.6 APG on .518 FG/.872 FT/.581 TS (RS 31.3-7.1-6.1 on .473/.860/.573)

4-3 win against St. Louis (+1.2: 6th of 9)
3-4 loss against Boston (-6.6: 1st of 9)

1966-67: injured (RS 28.7-5.9-6.8 on .464/.878/.559)

1967-68: 30.8 PPG-5.4 RPG-5.5 APG on .527 FG/.781 FT/.596 TS (RS 26.3-5.8-6.1 on .514/.811/.590)

4-1 win against Chicago (+0.7: 8th of 12)
4-0 win against San Francisco (-2.2: 3rd of 12)
2-4 loss against Boston (-4.4: 2nd of 12)

1968-69: 30.9 PPG-3.9 RPG-7.5 APG on .463 FG/.804 FT/.542 TS (RS 25.9-4.3-6.9 on .471/.821/.557)

4-2 win against San Francisco (-2.0: 5th of 14)
4-1 win against Atlanta (+0.0: 9th of 14)
3-4 loss against Boston (-6.4: 1st of 14)

1969-70: 31.2 PPG-3.7 RPG-8.4 APG on .469 FG/.802 FT/.550 TS (RS 31.2-4.6-7.5 on .497/.824/.572)

4-3 win against Phoenix (+4.1: 14th of 14)
4-0 win against Atlanta (+2.9: 11th of 19)
3-4 loss against New York (-6.6: 1st of 14)

1970-71: injured (RS 26.9-4.6-9.5 on .494/.832/.571)

1971-72: 22.9 PPG-4.9 RPG-8.9 APG on .376 FG/.830 FT/.445 TS (RS 25.8-4.2-9.7 on .477/.814/.546)

4-0 win against Chicago (-3.6: 3rd of 17)
4-2 win against Milwaukee (-5.3: 1st of 17)
4-1 win against New York (-1.6: 6th of 17)

1972-73: 23.6 PPG-4.5 RPG-7.8 APG on .449 FG/.780 FT/.512 TS (RS 22.8-4.2-8.8 on .479/.805/.533)

4-3 win against Chicago (-1.2: 7th of 17)
4-1 win against Golden State (-2.8: 6th of 17)
1-4 loss against New York (-4.3: 4th of 17)

1973-74: 4-2-1 in 1 game of 14 minutes (RS 20.3-3.7-6.6 on .447/.833/.519)

That's incredible - not counting 1966-67's 1-minute campaign and 1973-74's 14-minute campaign, in 7 of 11 runs, West faced the toughest defense in the league. In his first three years, his production took a notable uptick, and in 1961-62 it came exclusively against the top 2 defenses in the league! 1964-65 saw a huge jump in production with a dip in efficiency, and the rest of his 60s postseasons also saw jumps in production against tough defenses with roughly the same efficiency. His 70s playoff runs saw him generally come down to regular season levels, but overall, this is incredible! 25.2% of these playoff games are against the Boston Celtics, and 29.8% are against the top-ranked defense in the league.

Let's put some of these numbers into perspective. West's playoff numbers rank in the league's top 10 as follows (playoffs and as if they were regular season numbers)

1960-61:

PPG: 4th (would be 10th RS)
APG: 3rd (8th)
FG%: 3rd (2nd)
TS%: 2nd (2nd)

1961-62:

PPG: 3rd (3rd)
APG: 8th (-)
FG%: 6th (-)
TS%: 5th (3rd)

1962-63:

PPG: 4th (6th)
APG: 5th (7th)
FG%: 5th (6th)
TS%: 7th (6th)

1963-64:

PPG: 2nd (3rd)
FG%: 4th (T-4th)
FT%: (9th)
TS%: 2nd (T-3rd)

1964-65:

PPG: 1st (1st)
APG: 4th (T-5th)
FT%: 5th (1st)
TS%: 9th (10th)

1965-66:

PPG: 1st (1st)
APG: 4th (6th)
FG%: 2nd (3rd)
FT%: 5th (2nd)
TS%: 1st (1st)

1967-68:

PPG: 1st (1st)
APG: 6th (7th)
FG%: 7th (3rd)
TS%: 3rd (1st)

1968-69:

PPG: 1st (1st)
APG: 2nd (4th)
FT%: 7th (T-10th)
TS%: 8th (10th)

1969-70:

PPG: 2nd (1st)
APG: 1st (2nd)
TS%: 4th

1971-72:

PPG: 10th
APG: 1st (4th)
FT%: (10th)

1972-73:

PPG: 7th
APG: 1st (T-3rd)

Sure, it's a smaller league, but to consistently be in the top 10 in so many categories (and often in the top 3) is pretty special.

[ThaRegul8r]

So I was looking over some Karl Malone arguments from the last Top 100 Project, as I wanted to read something that wasn't obviously agenda-based, as I tend to discount them entirely. And I came across the following post by ElGee:

Spoiler:

Karl Malone's Great Games

I think the focusing on all the negatives, with all players, does a great disservice to their positives. As I've said, it's better to have a guy with 10 amazing seasons and 5 horrible ones than a guy with 5 amazing seasons and 0 horrible ones.

People really need to consider how much this Losing Bias plays tricks on their brains. The lasting memory of Malone being stripped, or missing 2 FT's in the opening Finals game (on the heels of one or two questionable outs in the past) smacks of availibility heuristic (error). The brain will over-emphasize that easily accessible information in analysis. It happens to all players who lose, and the opposite happens to players who win.

I find it ironic that so many people who like to look at team roster don't consider just how much Malone did for the Jazz. He's quite similar to Dirk Nowitzki and this year's Dallas team ITO structure. Stockton by the late 90s has a reduced role of efficiency, and not much more (like Kidd). The team has a few shooters, a smart coach, a decent bench (Utah never had a Tyson Chandler) and it all revolves around Malone.

Anyway, in focusing on the positive and what people may have forgotten (or never known), here are Malone's greatest games from his prime:

1988
G2 LA – Malone scores 18 of his 29 in second half to “stun” LA at the Forum.
G6 LA – He predicts a G7 and delivers with 27-11 (58.5% TS)
G7 LA – In defeat again back-to-back champs, 31 points 15 rebounds (62.1% TS)

1989
G2 GSW – Malone, scoreless in the 1st of G1 (16 in 2nd half) came out blazing, with 14 in first and 24 at half. He finished with 37 points (13-25, 11-14) and 22 rebounds, but the rest of the jazz were 18-54 (33%). I just don't see the evidence his team was very good in these years (Malone had 33-14 in G3).

1990
G4 Pho After going just 23-62 in the first 3 games, Malone helps force game 5 with 33 points (13-24, 7-9) and 11 rebounds. (Note, in Game 5, Malone tied the score with a 20-footer in the final seconds of the game, but KJ hit a buzzer beater to win. Malone 26-9 (10-19, 6-12) in that game, Stockton just 3-11)

1991
G5 Pho – Malone scores 11 of his 38 points in the 4th quarter to close out the Suns.
G2 Por – After a subpar G1, Malone goes for 40 in G2 defeat. He sparks a 23-point deficit, 45-point fourth quarter with 20 4th-quarter points of his own (31 in 2nd half). They lose on a Terry Porter buzzer beater. Malone made 2 Fts with 41 seconds left ot cut it 116-112, then forced a jump on Ainge on inbounds. Utah won it, Jeff Malone hit to make it 116-114, then Karl tied it with FT's at 116-116.

1992
G4 v LAC Malone with 44 and 11 but rest of Jazz combine for 23-55 (41.8%) and Clips shoot 50% to win.
G5 v Sea – To closeout Sonics, Malone scores 15 of his 37 in 4th, erasing an 8 point hole.
G3 v Por – Down 2-0 and back home, Malone goes for an absolute gem: 39-7-7 (68% TS)
G5 v Por – In the pivotal game of the series, with Stockton injured and out most of game, Malone carries the Jazz into OT with 38 points. This game was on classic recently and I've referenced, but it's a hugely steady diet of Karl on offense for Utah. Malone had 28 of 38 in 2nd half. He had 14 rebounds.

1994
G4 v Spurs – He closes out San Antonio with 34 and 12 (60% TS) and the key 20-footer with 42 seconds left to put Utah up 91-88.
G7 v Den – Malone with 31 and 14 on 12-23. “Karl took over” Hornacek said afterwards.

1995
G3 Hou – After Houston evened the series, Malone dropped 32-19-5 in Hou, with 21 in the second half. Malone had 11 in the third to spark the game's key run, according to AP report.

1996
G5 Por – Utah just destroyed Portland, and Malone had 21-10 in only 31 minutes. His counterparts, Buck Williams and Harvey Grant, shot a combined 3-14 for Portland.
G5+6 Sea Facing elimination, Malone with two huge games (30.5 ppg 12.5 rap 4.5 apg)

1997
G4 LAL – Ahead 2-1, Malone just crushes lakers as he rebounds from a 2-20 game: 42 points, 9 rebounds.
G5 LAL – He finishes LA with a 32 point 20 rebound performance in G5 at home. Btw, you barely notice Shaquille O'Neal is playing for the Lakers when you watch the 4th Q and OT of that game, until a dunk at ~3 min. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_4i2ZZsUbk&NR=1) Malone with a jumper at 3:20 of OT after 2 FT's, then a fade with 90 seconds left over Campbell to make it 96-93, the final FG.
G3 Chi – Down 2-0, Malone responds with 37 poits an 10 boards (55% TS) back in Utah.

1998
G5 Hou – This time – perhaps because Hakeem is older? – Malone bests Houston with 31-15-5 virtuoso game.
G4 SAS – Again, up 2-1 Malone goes for 34-12-4 (17-28) in a game 4 after a bad G3 (6-21 shooting), this against the Spurs twin towers and top-rated defense. Avery Johnson described the game afterwards simply as, “Karl Malone.” Robinson said “Malone was as good as he could be shooting the ball.”
G5 Chi – Basically single-handedly carries Utah back home with 17-27 39-9-5 game, and was easily the best player on court that day. He hit the dagger shot in the final minute to secure an 80-76 lead. Jordan misses at buzzer. (Final 6 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-E9rmJPh5U&NR=1

In the Final 6 minutes: Malone is doubled which leads to a breakdown, and ultimately a Carr layup. On the next trip he is doubled and hits Carr for open J. Then Malone with a scoop over Rodman. At 2:00 left, another double leads to a hockey assist on another Carr J. Then the dagger over Rodman, and Costas says “Malone is personally pushing the series back to Utah.”

G6 v Chi – Has 31-11-7 and does seemingly everything, except infamously hold on to the ball on his final touch.

(Interesting note about the last 2 games– Malone with 70 of Utah's 149 points in final 2 games (47%!) on 65.4% TS 28-46, 14-17. Jordan with 73 of Chicago's 148 points (49%) on 24-61, 22-26 on 50.4% TS)

I remembered that post, and had actually saved it, but it was on my other computer which crashed. I was inspired to publish a similar post for Erving, since more information is always a positive, and I know no one else knows this, as no one would have taken the time to do so. So here are notable playoff games for Erving from 1972 to 1982:

Julius Erving's Notable Playoff Games (ABA & NBA)

1972

Spoiler:

G1 v. Floridians – In his first playoff game, “Rookie Julius Erving scored six points in overtime […] to spark the Virginia Squires to a 114-107 victory over the Floridians in the opening game of their semifinal American Basketball Association Eastern Divisoin semifinal playoff. […] Erving led Virginia with 32 points […]” (Herald-Journal, Apr 1, 1972).
G3 v. Floridians – In the third playoff game of his professional career, “Julius Erving equaled the American Basketball Association playoff record with 53 points […] as he sparked the Virginia Squires to a 118-113 victory over the Floridians and extended Virginia’s Eastern Division playoff lead to 3-0 in a best-of-7 series. Erving tied the mark set in 1970 by Roger Brown of Indiana” (Herald-Journal, Apr 5, 1972). Erving finished with 53 points (22-29 FG, 8-9 FT), “also pulled down a game-high 14 rebounds” and passed for six assists (The Free Lance-Star, Apr 6, 1972).
G4 v. Floridians – Erving scored 39 points and grabbed 27 rebounds to lead Virginia to a 115-106 win to complete the sweep. Erving averaged 37.8 points per game and 19.8 rebounds for his first playoff series (The Dispatch, Apr 8, 1972).
G2 v. New York – Erving scored 38 points and grabbed 20 rebounds to lead Virginia to a 115-106 win over the New York Nets.
G5 v. New York – Erving scored 24 points and grabbed 32 rebounds as Virginia defeated New York 116-107 to take a 3-2 series lead. “The 6-foot-7 Erving, closely shadowed by 6-foot-2 Ollie Taylor, managed only 11 points and 11 rebounds in the first half but broke loose after intermission when Taylor got in foul trouble. Erving scored 13 points and nabbed 21 rebounds in the final 24 minutes” (The Tuscaloosa News, Apr 30, 1972).
G7 v. New York – New York took the seventh and deciding game 94-88. “Erving finished as the game’s top scorer with 35 points, but got little scoring support from his teammates. Doug Moe was the second highest scorer for the Squires with 11” (Star-News, May 5, 1972). Erving also finished with 20 rebounds (ibid). Virginia “surged back from a seven-point fourth quarter deficit to tie the score at 88-88” (Star-News, May 5, 1972) “paced by Julius Erving with five points and Ray Scott with four” (The Dispatch, May 5, 1972), but were unable to score in the last 3:15.

1973

Spoiler:

G2 v. Kentucky – “Erving, sidelined with an injury near the end of the season, looked in the peak of physical condition […] as he scored 41 points [17-22 FG, 7-7 FT] to lead the Virginia Squires to a 109-94 triumph over the Colonels at Louisville. The victory evened their American Basketball Association best-of-seven East Division semifinal playoff series at one game apiece” (The Bulletin, Apr 2, 1973). Erving scored 10 in the fourth quarter, in which the Squires outscored the Colonels 33-14 (Herald-Journal, Apr 2, 1973).

1974

Spoiler:

G1 v. Kentucky – Erving scored 35 points as the Nets took the opening game of the ABA Eastern Division Finals 119-106, “operating on Kentucky for 13 points in the decisive third quarter, bl[owing] out the Colonels in the period, outscoring them 38-24 for a commanding 90-75 bulge. Kentucky never got closer than 11 points in the fourth period” (Herald-Journal, Apr 13, 1974).
G3 v. Kentucky – “Julius Erving hit a shot at the buzzer to propel New York past the Kentucky Colonels 89-87 […] and give the Nets a commanding 3-0 lead in the American Basketball Association Eastern Division championship series” (The Victoria Advocate, Apr 18, 1974). “If the Kentucky Colonels had any doubts about Julius Erving’s right to the American Basketball Association’s Most Valuable Player award this year, they were put to rest […]. Erving pulled up and fired in an off-balance 20-foot jump-shot at the buzzer to give the New York Nets an 89-87 victory over the Colonels and a 3-0 lead in their ABA Eastern Division championship playoff series. The game-winning basket climaxed a sterling clutch performance by Erving as he scored eight of the Nets’ last 12 points, including a driving stuff shot that put them ahead for the first time at 83-81. He finished with a game-high 30 points, the third straight playoff game in which he has been the high scorer, and 14 rebounds” (United Press International, “Call Erving ‘Mr Clutch’.” St. Petersburg Times, Apr 19, 1974. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 43824).
G1 v. Utah – Erving opened the ABA Finals by scoring 47 points to lead New York to a 89-85 win. “The dynamic Erving hit 13 consecutive field goals during one stretch and finished with 18 baskets in 29 attempts. […] Erving’s remarkable performance was only three points short of the Nets playoff record of 50 points set by Rick Barry in 1972, and was six points shy of the league playoff record, of 53. That mark is shared by Erving, and Roger Brown of Indiana but Erving did it in 1972 when he was with Virginia. Erving was devastating in the first half, shaking lose for 26 points, hitting his last 11 field goals” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, May 1, 1974).

UNIONDALE, N.Y. (UPI)—Is Julius Erving the best forward in the history of basketball?

That was the question dominating conversations in both locker rooms after the 6-foot-7 Dr. J staged a virtuoso 47-point performance to give the New York Nets an 89-85 victory over the Utah Stars Tuesday night in the opening game of their best-of-seven American Basketball Association championship series.

Elgin Baylor’s name came up and so did John Havlicek, Rick Barry and Dave DeBusschere. All were or are great ballplayers capable of spectacular games and certainly among the very best.

But as far as the Stars, Nets and most of the people watching Tuesday night’s game were concerned, “Dr. J” is the best ever.

“Baylor was the best for a longer time,” Nets’ Coach and NBA veteran Kevin Loughery said. “But Doc is a better all-around player than Baylor ever was. Doc can do everything Baylor could on offense and more and he plays much better defense.”
(Ellensburg Daily Record, May 1, 1974)

1975

Spoiler:

G1 vs. Spirits of St. Louis – Erving had 32 points, 12 rebounds and six assists as New York defeated St. Louis 111-105.

1976

Spoiler:

G4 v. SA – Erving had 35 points, including a dunk with 14 seconds left and a free throw to give the Nets a 110-108 win to tie the ABA semifinals at 2-2.
G5 v. SA – Erving had 32 points, 10 rebounds and six assists, and blocked a shot with four seconds left to give the Nets a 110-108 win and a 3-2 series lead. He scored five points in the first minute of the fourth quarter “leading the Nets on a 13-6 tear that gave them a comfortable 98-89 edge with eight minutes left” (The Deseret News, Apr 20, 1976). “But San Antonio drew to within two points at 110-108 on a three-point play by Coby Dietrick with 39 seconds to go, and George Gervin’s rebound of a missed shot by Nets center Kim Hughes gave the Spurs a final chance at a tie. After a timeout, guard Mike Gale took the shot for the Spurs with five seconds to go, but it was rejected by Erving, the ABA’s Most Valuable Player each of the past three seasons. Gervin won the scramble for the loose ball and got off a lastditch shot just before the final buzzer, but it bounded off the rim” (The Victoria Advocate, Apr 20, 1976).
G1 v. Denver – Erving put up 45 points, 12 rebounds and four assists, scoring 10 of the Nets’ last 11 points including a 20-foot baseline jumper at the buzzer to give New Jersey a 120-118 win in Denver, where they had never won in 11 meetings, losing by an average margin of 13.3 points a game. He fouled his defender, Bobby Jones, out of the game.
G2 v. Denver – Erving follows up his Game 1 performance with 48 points (15-23 FG, 12-16 FT), 14 rebounds, eight assists, three steals and a blocked shot, scoring a professional basketball playoff-game record 37 points in the second half and 25 points in the fourth quarter in a 127-121 loss.
G4 v. Denver – Erving had 34 points and 16 rebounds in a 121-112 win.

1977

Spoiler:

G6 v. Houston -- Erving scored 34 points (15-24 FG, 4-5 FT) in a 112-109 win to advance to the NBA Finals. "In the crucial final quarter, Erving got precious little help. He responded with nine straight points in a brutal, heart-pounding final 12 minutes to just keep the Rockets at bay." Houston Rockets' coach Tom Nissalke said, "Julius is the finest player to ever play the game. The Sixers had to have all of him to beat us. They got no support when the going got tough. That won't work against the Trailblazers."
G5 v. Portland – Erving scored 37 points "including 13 in a frantic fourth-quarter comeback" (Harlan Daily Enterprise, Jun 5, 1977) and fouled his defender, Bobby Gross, out with 4:54 remaining. But Portland won 110-104.
G6 v. Portland – Erving scored 40 points, but it wasn't enough as the Portland Trail Blazers won 109-107 to win the NBA championship. "Julius Erving was magnificent in defeat, […] showing why he is regarded by his peers as the most dynamic player in the game. But he received little help. George McGinnis was embarrassingly inept for five of the six games of the final series and Doug Collins started quickly but fizzled in the last two games. The other Sixers contributed little. So the series often seemed like a game of five-on-one, and Portland’s team concept overcame the individual brilliance of Erving" (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Jun 7, 1977). Sam Goldaper of the New York Times wrote: “The recently concluded National Basketball Association season will be best remembered for two significant events: the emergence of Bill Walton as one of the game’s dominant centers, and the proof that Julius Erving could play the game of basketball as well as anyone who had ever played before him” (Jun 8, 1977).

1978

Spoiler:

G5 v. Washington – Erving scored 24 points (11-19 FG, 2-5 FT) with six rebounds, four assists and four steals (Reading Eagle, May 11, 1978) and “In addition to his scoring, Erving put the lid on Washington’s forward Bob Dandridge, who had scored at a 24.3 clip in the first four games. Dandridge got only 12 points […]” (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, May 11, 1978) on 5-for-12 shooting (The Fort Scott Tribune, May 12, 1978) as Philadelphia won 107-94.

1979

Spoiler:

G3 v. San Antonio – Erving scored a game-high 39 points (15-23 FG, 9-12 FT) to lead the Sixers to a 123-115 victory.
G5 v. San Antonio – “Julius Erving hit 32 points, 24 of them in the second half, and four other Philadelphia players were in double figures […] as the 76ers trashed lethargic San Antonio 120-97 to cut the Spurs’ lead to 3-2 in their best-of-seven National Basketball Association playoff series. Erving, making an unusual start at guard to enable Philadelphia to use a larger lineup, got 16 points in the third quarter as the 76ers built up leads of as many as 23 points” (The Lewiston Daily Sun, Apr 27, 1979).
G7 v. San Antonio – Erving scored a game-high 34 points, but it wasn’t enough as Washington won 111-108 to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals, ending Philadelphia’s bid to become the third team in NBA history come back from a 3-1 series deficit. Erving brought the 76ers to within one point, 107-106, but Mike Green banked in a 20-foot jumper to extend the lead to three, and George Gervin made a pair of free throws with 11 seconds left (The Spokesman-Review, May 4, 1979).

1980

Spoiler:

G1 v. Atlanta – Erving scored 28 points, including 11 in the fourth quarter, to lead Philadelphia to a 107-104 win. “The Sixers trailed Atlanta 87-81 with nine minutes to play, but Erving drove for a three-point play that started a 12-0 surge that put Philadelphia ahead to stay. But the Sixers did not clinch victory until, with 20 seconds to play and Atlanta trailing by one, Erving hit Bobby Jones with a lob pass for a layup and the final margin” (The Evening Independent, Apr 7, 1980). “Erving, who scored 28 points, started the 76ers’ comeback with a field goal and then added a three-point play. Guard Maurice Cheeks scored on a pass from Erving that pulled the 76ers within a point at 87-86. Erving then scored the go-ahead field goal, and Mix produced five consecutive points that increased Philadelphia’s lead to 93-87. The Hawks got within two on four occasions, the last at 100-98, but they could never catch up to the team they had beaten four times out of six during the regular season” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr 7, 1980). “ ‘Did I get dominant?’ asked Erving, smiling. ‘I guess I asserted myself a little more. I wanted to involve myself a little more. After I got that three-point play, we were all right. Hey, after three quarters, it’s time to make a few plays’ ” (The Evening Independent, Apr 7, 1980).
G1 v. Boston – Philadelphia took the opening game in Boston 96-93, for their first victory in Boston Garden after three regular-season blowouts. “The Sixers were led, as usual, by Julius Erving with 29 points. The Doctor had 12 in the third quarter, including 10 in a row to key a 16-2 spurt which erased a 10-point Boston lead, the last time the Celtics would have the advantage. ‘We felt we were in pretty good shape at halftime when we trailed by eight,’ said Erving, who hit on 12-of-22 shots. ‘In the third quarter, I knew we would get the lead — it was just a matter of when. The important thing is that we kept the lead and the opportunities they had to come back were squashed’ ” (The Telegraph, Apr 19, 1980).
G3 v. Boston – Erving scored 22 of his game-high 28 points (13-22 FG, 2-3 FT) in the second half, grabbed 11 rebounds, passed for seven assists and had five steals to lead the Sixers to a 99-97 win to take a 2-1 series lead (Daytona Beach Morning Journal, Apr 24, 1980).
G4 v. Boston – “Julius Erving scored 12 of his 30 points in the third quarter as the Philadelphia 76ers built a 16-point lead and then held on to beat the Boston Celtics 102-90 […] to take a 3-1 lead in their National Basketball Association playoff series” (Star-News, Apr 26, 1980). “Erving dominated the first quarter, scoring 11 points, grabbing six rebounds and handing out three assists as Philadelphia took a 28-21 lead. He scored seven straight Philadelphia points early in the period, then got one more basket and set up two more as the Sixers ran off eight points for a 25-17 advantage” (ibid).
G5 v. LA – In the game in which Kareem Abdul-Jabbar came back from a third-quarter ankle injury to score 14 of his game-high 40 points in the fourth quarter to lead the Lakers to a 108-103 victory, Erving scored 36. “Philadelphia trailed 89-77 with 9:01 left in the game but stormed back behind Julius Erving, who scored 15 of his 36 points in the fourth quarter, to pull within four, 98-94, with 3:36 left. Erving hit a free throw with 43 seconds remaining to tie the score at 103-103 but a three-point play by Abdul-Jabbar with 33 seconds left gave the Lakers a 106-103 lead. Erving then missed a difficult spinning layup with 28 seconds remaining and, after a Los Angeles turnover, reserve Henry stepped out of bounds with 22 seconds left. Norm Nixon hit a pair of free throws for Los Angeles with just eight seconds to seal the victory.” (The Morning Record and Journal, May 15, 1980).

1981

Spoiler:

G1 v. Milwaukee – “Trying to measure the skills of Julius Erving through statistics is an insult to the man. On the level Dr. J plays, statistics become obsolete. He showed that once more Sunday at the Spectrum when his game-high 38 points and six blocked shots led the Philadelphia 76ers to a 125-122 win over the Milwaukee Bucks in the opener of the seven-game NBA Eastern Conference semifinals. Erving scored 18 points in the fourth quarter, the last two coming from the foul line with 38 seconds left, to give the Sixers a 123-122 lead” (Reading Eagle, Apr 6, 1981). “After Marques Johnson missed a shot for Milwaukee, Lionel Hollins clinched the victory with two more free throws with 11 seconds left” (The Lewiston Daily Sun, Apr 6, 1981). Erving finished with 38 points (14-21 FG, 10-16 FT), nine rebounds, six blocked shots and two steals. “And he owned the area near the basket” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr 6, 1981).

1982

Spoiler:

G2 v. Atlanta – “Julius Erving scored 28 points, including 13 in the fourth quarter, and made the defensive play of the game with 13 seconds left in overtime as the 76ers advanced to a best-of-seven series against injury-riddled Central Division champion Milwaukee” (Reading Eagle, Apr 21, 1982). That defensive play was a blocked shot of Dan Roundfield, who had sent the game into overtime with a 15-footer with 12 seconds to go to tie the game at 90 (The Sumter Daily Item, Apr 24, 1982). “Jones broke a 93-93 deadlock when he sank two free throws with 1:07 remaining and Atlanta was unable to seriously challenge after Maurice Cheeks made a steal to give the 76ers possession again. Erving had a basket nullified for charging with 30 seconds to play, but came through with his block of a Dan Roundfield shot with 13 seconds to go. Nine seconds later, Jones added two more free throws for a 97-93 advantage” (Observer-Reporter, Apr 24, 1982).
G1 v. Milwaukee – “Julius Erving scored 34 points and lead a Philadelphia run of eight straight points late in the game to spark the 76ers to a 125-122 victory over the Milwaukee Bucks in the opener of their Eastern Conference semifinals series” (Eugene Register-Guard, Apr 26, 1982).
G7 v. Boston – Erving scored 20 of his 29 points in the second half as Philadelphia defeated Boston 120-106 to advance to the Finals. “Erving, an all-star forward, started very slowly. He was scoreless when taken out with 44 seconds left in the first quarter and didn’t make his first shot until 7:12 remained in the half. Once he started making his outside shots, it opened up the court and gave the 76ers the offensive balance they had been lacking” (The Victoria Advocate, May 24, 1982).
G2 v. LA – Erving scored a game-high 24 points (10-15 FG, 4-7 FT) and grabbed a game-high 14 rebounds to lead Philadelphia to a 110-94 victory to snap the Lakers’ NBA playoff-record nine-game winning streak (Ellensburg Daily Record, May 31, 1982). “Dr. J did a good job getting rebounds. He took over on the boards,” 76ers coach Billy Cunningham said. “We needed that, especially when we had a smaller lineup in there” (St. Petersburg Times, May 31, 1982).
G5 v. LA – “The Philadelphia 76ers’ incomparable forward missed his first eight shots from the field […] and as a result, the Los Angeles Lakers were dangerously close to taking control of the game that could lift them to the league title. Erving finally hit two baskets in the last 2:25 of the second period. And then, he came out in the second half flashing the form that has made him known to everyone as ‘Dr. J.’ Erving scored 18 points in the final two periods and teamed with Andrew Toney to spark a third-quarter surge that carried the 76ers to a 135-102 romp over the Lakers and kept them alive in the crazy series. ‘I didn’t get off to a great start so I tried to concentrate on other things,’ said Erving, who finished with 23 points and 12 rebounds. Erving, who shot 8-of-9 in the second half, and Toney, who finished with 31, scored four points in a 12-2 spurt that gave the Lakers an 80-72 lead and the Lakers never were able to get closer than six after that. Erving’s slam dunk punctuated a 10-0 run in the fourth quarter that boosted the Philadelphia lead to 101-83 and prompted the Lakers to look ahead to Game 6 […]. Erving’s wake-up call helped the Sixers’ running game emerge from under the huge shadow cast by the Lakers’ fast break attack in the previous two games. Philadelphia shot 71 percent from the field in an 81-point second half — a record for the NBA finals — and converted 19 fast break opportunities for 18 points” (The Bryan Times, Jun 7, 1982). “ ‘I played so poorly in the first half, I decided to let it all hang out in the second,’ Erving said” (The Telegraph, Jun 7, 1982). “It was the worst defeat ever in the playoffs for the Lakers” (ibid). “The most points any team had ever scored in one half during a championship series was 78 by Boston in 1965 against the Lakers” (ibid).

Erving’s Game 3 of the 1974 ABA Eastern Division Finals is exactly the kind of playoff performance I like to see—an MVP playing like one when his team needs him: “If the Kentucky Colonels had any doubts about Julius Erving’s right to the American Basketball Association’s Most Valuable Player award this year, they were put to rest […].” Erving had four postseason game-winners during this span, one at the free-throw line. He also had three game-saving blocks. Unlisted because he only scored 19, in Game 3 of the 1982 Eastern Conference Finals against Boston, with Philadelphia leading 99-97, “a shot by the Boston Celtics’ Cedric Maxwell bounced off the back of the rim and when he grabbed the rebound, his follow-up shot was blocked by Julius Erving. The ball again came back to Maxwell, but Philadelphia’s Maurice Cheeks stripped it loose and ran out the clock. It added up to a 99-97 victory for the 76ers and a 2-1 lead in the National Basketball Association’s best-of-seven Eastern Conference finals” (Eugene Register-Guard, May 16, 1982).

Erving did a lot of things to help his team win. There's the high-volume scoring games everyone loves, taking over in the fourth quarter, game-winners, defensive plays, locking someone up on defense, hitting the boards, making plays, it's all there.

I'll do the same for West, though that won't be up until the next thread at the soonest.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The teams who made the finals prior to 1997 were better than the teams he played for. I don't think that's entirely on Karl Malone, or rather it's no more on Karl Malone than it is on West for some of the years the Lakers got eliminated early (or arguably with a better team). West generally had better team mates, and so his team generally had better chances to make the finals.

Except, the most important thing to judge when judging losses is how the player performed, and West was a vastly superior playoff performer to the Mailman.

[Baller2014]

Was he though? Adjust for pace and era and I doubt it. West was superior compared to regular season West, just as Malone was inferior to regular season Malone... but he still posts those huge stats lines during his prime from 88-93, and he peaks above West when we factor in his D. That and his longevity should be more than ample to put him ahead.

I mean, I don't even know what you mean by "West performed better", because the only thing that suggests that is his raw stats, and they're obviously distorted.

[DQuinn1575]

post deleted - iphone sorry about that


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