RealGM Top 100 List #14

[penbeast0]

That's Malone's career TS%, sure, which suffers slightly from his having played so long. His playoff TS% in his physical, statistical and actual prime, from 88-93, comes in at 56%, along with notably superior numbers. This includes plainly superior pp100 scoring (with the exception of one wacky playoffs for West in 1965 which is a clear anomaly, and Malone even equals and exceeds that number in 2 of his regular season campaigns).

So West can't even beat Malone in the one area he's supposed to have a big advantage; playoff scoring. Needless to say, Malone clubs him mercilessly in other areas like longevity, RS, D, etc.

Interesting that Baller, to support his argument, doesn't feel that Malone's seasons from 97-99 when he finished 1st, 2nd, and 1st in MVP voting (his 3 best years for MVP shares) aren't part of his prime. Really?

[Baller2014]

They're part of his prime. Malone has a prime that goes over a decade. But you're not at the same level for all of your prime, that's where we distinguish peak from prime (and different levels of prime). Malone was indeed an MVP calibre player from 97-99, but he was even better in 88-93, he just didn't get the media narrative for it (though looking at his MVP results from 88-93 the guy was hardly non-existent in the MVP results, he finished 8th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 4th, 8th and was a perennial all-nba 1st teamer). The year he was 3rd he was behind only Magic and Jordan, and the years he was 4th and 5th he finished behind only Jordan, Magic, Barkley, D.Rob and Drexler.

Statistically Karl Malone's best regular season and playoff numbers are from when he was 25-30 years old, which is unsurprising because most players physical and statistical primes overlap. That in no way changes the fact that Karl Malone was still MVP calibre in 97-99 too. I just think if we're going to use a 5 year prime sample to show how great guys like West are (and like we've been doing for lots of other candidates) then we ought to pick Karl Malone's best statistical sample, not the years when he got more media credit because his team made the finals (but in reality was 34-35 years old, and probably not as good as when he was 25-30- certainly not according to the stats).

Just to highlight again what I'm talking about. From 88-93 K.Malone had a 56% TS. in the playoffs. During that time he put up 29-11-3. When we look at this on a pp100 basis to help compensate for the higher pace West played at, here's is how it comes out. K.Malone from 88-93 had per 100 playoff scoring of 33.4, 32.6, 31.4, 35.0, 36.1 and 31.3. In addition, Karl Malone records 4 other playoffs over his career of 37-38pp100 (and in those 4 years his TS% was 550, 534, 584. and 484 when he was 38 years old) and regular season Karl is even better (having multiple seasons of 40pp100 or more, with even higher efficiency).

Now here's West's 5 best years in the 60's as cited by other posters (they're not entirely consecutive like Malone's, so I could have pumped up Malone's stats even more if I'd been allowed to skip/cherry-pick years too, but whatever):
534TS. (on 40pp100), 564TS. (on 32.6pp100), 542TS. (on 31.1pp100), 581TS. (on 30.7pp100) and 596TS. (on 30.1pp100).
So even West's best years show he's scoring less per 100 than Malone (except in one freak season, and in that one freak season his TS is vastly lower). If we averaged those 5 years out Malone would be ahead on both pp100 and TS%. Yet people are criticising Malone for "wilting" in the playoffs, when his playoff scoring is clearly superior to "Mr Clutch" West, who they are praising for playoff play.

[HeartBreakKid]

Some nice post on Malone, but let's save it for the next thread. He's not eligible anymore.

[tsherkin]

Really? Are you sure?

Yeah, I could have sworn watching those Jazz teams that the pick and roll with the mailman was the start of their flex offense and that all of their other stuff fed off of that.

I don't mean that, in general, Malone was bad for their offense. I mean the way that he performed in the playoffs put a serious damper on their ability to win, which is true. When he floundered that badly, yes, I am very sure that it caused them problems because they relied upon him to carry their offense. They were a team that relied a lot on precision of execution, and if you were able to disrupt their offense with length and athleticism, or by swarming Malone, then they had issues.

It's pretty clear that Utah had a great deal of offensive success with him, Stockton and Hornacek in the RS, that' is an irrefutable point, but you can see pretty clearly that when he struggled, it was a big problem for them. And he struggled frequently in the postseason.

[magicmerl]

Really? Are you sure?

Yeah, I could have sworn watching those Jazz teams that the pick and roll with the mailman was the start of their flex offense and that all of their other stuff fed off of that.

I don't mean that, in general, Malone was bad for their offense. I mean the way that he performed in the playoffs put a serious damper on their ability to win, which is true. When he floundered that badly, yes, I am very sure that it caused them problems because they relied upon him to carry their offense. They were a team that relied a lot on precision of execution, and if you were able to disrupt their offense with length and athleticism, or by swarming Malone, then they had issues.

It's pretty clear that Utah had a great deal of offensive success with him, Stockton and Hornacek in the RS, that' is an irrefutable point, but you can see pretty clearly that when he struggled, it was a big problem for them. And he struggled frequently in the postseason.

Sure, but how much of that was Malone, how much of it was the other players, and how much of it was the system that he was in?

[ElGee]

Really? Are you sure?

Yeah, I could have sworn watching those Jazz teams that the pick and roll with the mailman was the start of their flex offense and that all of their other stuff fed off of that.

I don't mean that, in general, Malone was bad for their offense. I mean the way that he performed in the playoffs put a serious damper on their ability to win, which is true. When he floundered that badly, yes, I am very sure that it caused them problems because they relied upon him to carry their offense. They were a team that relied a lot on precision of execution, and if you were able to disrupt their offense with length and athleticism, or by swarming Malone, then they had issues.

It's pretty clear that Utah had a great deal of offensive success with him, Stockton and Hornacek in the RS, that' is an irrefutable point, but you can see pretty clearly that when he struggled, it was a big problem for them. And he struggled frequently in the postseason.

Think about what you're saying: The Jazz relied on Malone, when Malone couldn't carry them, the team struggled. This is supposed to be bad??

Of course, Malone couldn't carry them to the degree that Dirk or Barkley could (we speculate) because we believe those two players to be a notch above on offense. This doesn't mean they are worlds better, just that there is a clear difference.

Similarly, I completely reject the notion that you can determine someone "struggled" by looking at their TS%. If you are arguing that the offense swayed with Malone and that he had a huge burden that he sometimes couldn't fulfill, then isn't it incredibly supportive of Malone's offense that the Jazz PS ORtgs were so good. Re-posting from an old project:

That said, Malone and KG had their shooting decline. But, as I've said, the playmaking and pressure on the defense increased. Here are Utah's PS ORtgs. In parens is the change from their RS number, then their opp DRtg in the PS and their ORtg relative to that. The final number is Malone's TS%:

1988: 108.7 (+2.1) 107.3 (+1.4) 53.7%
1989: 105.8 (-0.8) 107.7 (-1.9) 57.4%
1990: 108.0 (-2.3) 106.2 (+1.8) 50.5%
1991: 109.9 (+1.3) 105.1 (+4.8) 53.6%
1992: 113.7 (+1.5) 105.8 (+7.9) 61.8%
1993: 102.3 (-7.3) 104.9 (-2.6) 52.8%
1994: 107.1 (-1.5) 102.6 (+4.5) 53.1%
1995: 115.9 (+1.6) 107.4 (+8.5) 55.0%
1996: 109.7 (-3.6) 103.0 (+6.7) 49.8%
1997: 110.5 (-3.1) 104.0 (+6.5) 50.1%
1998: 102.8 (-9.9) 102.7 (+0.1) 53.4%

And, during Malone's best years, his teams offense look A-OK (92, 94-98), with the exception of 1998. So, what happened in 98? Isn't that the year Utah brutalized the West? The Jazz posted a 96.1 ORtg vs. Chicago, mostly from the infamous G3 meltdown...in which Malone was the only decent Utah player. (Other Jazz were 13-59 for 22% and 32 total points.) EDIT: That game alone cost them 3.5 ORtg points.

So, Malone's Jazz are posting 110 ORts against 103 defenses with him shooting 53% TS. Obviously, this isn't something that's hurting the team, and from perspective watching them, he was carrying a huge load and helping them achieve that on a team level. Sometimes, the TS% dips because of harder shot selection (dictated by defense). Sometimes, you just don't shoot quite as well. With Malone, I think it was a little of both, but he was drawing a LOT of defensive attention, and especially later in his career was a phenomenal passer.

Finally, as I've noted before, inconsistency in the playoffs when you aren't on a stacked team can actually be GOOD. Data suggest that it's better to go 2-20 3x in a series and 20-20 for 4x than go 12-20 every game...IF you're team isn't loaded. Utah wasn't. We see this pattern in Malone's deep playoff runs, and sometimes the bad games butcher his TS% (he literally has a 2-20 game).

[Samurai]

Actually, how do we feel about West's range? I know there's anecdotal evidence of him hitting some super long shots, but are there any mentions of his ability to hit from the corner (I think I've heard this specifically about Oscar, so maybe it was said for West as well) or anything else (I know the ABA called their three, with the same line as today, the "25-footer" at times, maybe that language was used to describe West's jumper at times as well)?

From what I've seen, West shot more from the top of the key and elbows more than the corners, although I did see him beat the Warriors with a deep corner shot as time expired.

Between he and Oscar, I would say West shot more from the "corners" (left corner more than right in games I saw) and Oscar shot much more from the "baseline". The distinction is that Oscar loved to post up on the baseline and would take a lot of 8-10 foot jumpers from the baseline but not from deep in the corner. West also posted up some on the baseline but not as often as Oscar. West was more likely to take the 18-22 footer in the corner than Oscar would.

If you are interested in anecdotal info on Wests range, I can post that later tonight.

Thanks for the response. Love insight from people who watched these greats.

If it's not too much trouble, anecdotal info would be great too. I might have to consider changing my vote to West here.

No trouble at all. Just to be clear, the vast majority of West's jumpers in games I saw were in the mid-range (15-18 feet). I don't want anyone to get the impression that he was regularly launching shots from Steph Curry land (even though their releases look similar). But in most games I saw, West would shoot a few from approximate 3-point range. For some reason, the video clips I see of him don't show this, which is one reason I am fairly skeptical of relying just on video clips as "evidence" that a player did or did not do something vs. watching actual games over several years.

I got to see West a fair amount when the Lakers came to SF. We lived within walking distance to the Cow Palace (where the Warriors played before moving to Oakland and being called "Golden State"). The Cow Palace was kind of a dump, but on some games the staff were very lax on letting kids hang out courtside before and after games. In fact, after one game, my older brother grabbed his program and ran down to the court - I didn't know if he would get in trouble. He ended up getting autographs from Chamberlain, Baylor and West. By the time I realized it was OK and went down there myself, all I got was a Bob Lewis autograph (pretty hard to miss since Lewis set up a chair and table just hoping someone would come and ask for his autograph!). Hmm, Wilt, Baylor and West vs. Bob Lewis; one of these things is not like the other....

Anyway, if you saw West during pre-game warmups, he always had a very serious look on his face. After layup drills, he would just go and shoot his bread and butter 15-18 foot jumpers from the wings and elbows, then take a few free throws and head back to the bench. All business - he looked like a guy that was going to the dentist. But before one game, he was engaged in a conversation with a teammate (didn't recognize him and don't remember who he was). I don't know what they were talking about but we were in awe - this was NBA royalty having a conversation just about 10 feet from us (we were behind the Laker bench). West got a little more animated and said a little louder (so I could hear him) something about "as long as its aligned, it don't matter how far" or words to that effect. With that, West took the ball and went out to a point well beyond the top of the key - based on today's line I'd estimate about 25 feet. He casually tossed in 3 in a row, and said something back to his teammate. He then tossed in 2 more. What was impressive to me is that he just used the exact same stroke as he did when shooting his 15-foot jumpers in warmup (unlike say Oscar who used a one-hand set shot from the top of the key instead of his jumper). Five swishes in a row without a miss. He then walked back to his teammate. One of the kids near me yelled "Jerry - more, more!". West actually looked over at us, gave a half-smile but just handed the ball to his teammate and walked to the bench.

It would be a good story to say that West hit a bunch of 25 foot bombs from that exact spot to win the game, but the reality is he didn't shoot from there during that game. He did make one (and miss one) from 3-point range on the right wing, but the rest were just his bread and butter mid-range jumpers. I kept thinking that if shooting from 25 feet is so easy for him, why doesn't he do that more in games? but I suppose the reality is that since a 25-foot shot counts the same as a 15-footer, there just wasn't a good incentive to take a lower percentage shot, particularly since West was so deadly from mid-range. But I wish I could have seen West play in an era where there was a strategic advantage to shoot 3-pointers. I firmly believe that with a little practice, he would be deadly from that range.

I doubt that this anecdotal memory will sway any voters since it isn't stat-based but it was still a really cool thing to witness in person. And, of course, once West and Baylor get voted in to the top 100 I will be anxious to see when Bob Lewis gets voted in!

[HeartBreakKid]

Great story Samurai.

[ceiling raiser]

I doubt that this anecdotal memory will sway any voters since it isn't stat-based but it was still a really cool thing to witness in person. And, of course, once West and Baylor get voted in to the top 100 I will be anxious to see when Bob Lewis gets voted in!

Thanks a ton. Great, great story, sounds like a very cool experience getting up that close to those legends. It actually might not sway others, but it might help me make my decision. Between the two posts, these clippings are consistent with what I've read/seen/heard:

From what I've seen, West shot more from the top of the key and elbows more than the corners, although I did see him beat the Warriors with a deep corner shot as time expired.

Between he and Oscar, I would say West shot more from the "corners" (left corner more than right in games I saw) and Oscar shot much more from the "baseline". The distinction is that Oscar loved to post up on the baseline and would take a lot of 8-10 foot jumpers from the baseline but not from deep in the corner. West also posted up some on the baseline but not as often as Oscar. West was more likely to take the 18-22 footer in the corner than Oscar would.

No trouble at all. Just to be clear, the vast majority of West's jumpers in games I saw were in the mid-range (15-18 feet). I don't want anyone to get the impression that he was regularly launching shots from Steph Curry land (even though their releases look similar). But in most games I saw, West would shoot a few from approximate 3-point range.

It would be a good story to say that West hit a bunch of 25 foot bombs from that exact spot to win the game, but the reality is he didn't shoot from there during that game. He did make one (and miss one) from 3-point range on the right wing, but the rest were just his bread and butter mid-range jumpers. I kept thinking that if shooting from 25 feet is so easy for him, why doesn't he do that more in games? but I suppose the reality is that since a 25-foot shot counts the same as a 15-footer, there just wasn't a good incentive to take a lower percentage shot, particularly since West was so deadly from mid-range. But I wish I could have seen West play in an era where there was a strategic advantage to shoot 3-pointers. I firmly believe that with a little practice, he would be deadly from that range.

I'm going to add these to my quotes file, thanks again! You have a terrific memory and great feel for the game.

BTW, if you have free time and don't mind, I'd love to hear you chime in more about some of the other greats a lot of us didn't have a chance to see, and speculate elements of their games that you think would change today:

Kareem (particularly his Bucks years) viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1331477
Russell viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332342
Wilt viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1332741
Oscar viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1337636

The voting is completed but the conversation is what makes these projects so insightful. Any knowledge you (or others who were watching at the time) are willing to share would be a great asset to the community. Hopefully you'll stick around for the rest of project as well!

[ardee]

Man, tsherkin has God-like patience...

[Moonbeam]

I'll reiterate my vote for Jerry West here for now (it seems like it was missed in the original count), but I'll have a read of the posts over the last few pages to see if they make me change my mind. The two are very close in my opinion.

[90sAllDecade]

I enjoy the stories as well. These clips and documentaries about these two are appropriate. (I couldn't find "The Doctor" movie if someone can post it too)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYB75cMehY[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWWzkt7FVs0[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3_1hZDi-qw[/youtube]

[ThaRegul8r]

I lost my reply to this, so I'm posting it first and will edit in my response so that the whole thing doesn't get lost, forcing me to retype it.

People spent ages telling me West was a far superior playoff scorer to Karl Malone... except when we give them an adjustment so they have the same number of shots West scores less than Malone or Dr J on worse efficiency. So while West beats his regular season self in the playoffs, he's still worse than the playoff versions of K.Malone and Dr J.

You can rationalize it all you want to suit your agenda. The fact of the matter is, Malone in his era was not a comparable postseason performer as West was in his. West is in a category that includes Jordan as far as postseason performers. It's about their performance in the respective eras that they played in. Eras change, players face various challenges in their respective era, but players who perform well in the postseason can be found in any era. Malone didn't have postseason performances in his era as Dr. J did in his, either. He doesn't have to put up the exact numbers that Erving did in '76, for example, just have that caliber of performance in his own era, at whatever pace he's playing, against his own opponents. That's all. Level of performance is what matters, not specific numbers.

I've seen people say that Malone wasn't as "bad" of a postseason performer as he's made out to be. What's relevant is that he isn't as good as some of his competition as this stage. It doesn't even have to be made into a false dichotomy of "good" and "bad," he simply wasn't as good as others on the board.

Using this post to piggy-back some thoughts off of:

-The notion of someone being a "postseason" performer is currently unsubstantiated. I've seen a small amount of evidence to suggest that a very small handful of Reggie players Miller can Reggie Miller raise their Reggie game in the Miller playoffs. But I've yet to see the study that demonstrates a statistically significant change. Malone has a huge TS% falloff relative to the other greats, and still, there's huge evidence that the Jazz wilted around him offensively and he simply took on a larger burden (e.g. the team ORtg correlates to his strongly, his teammates TOV% plummets in the PS, Stockton has a massive decline in postseason numbers).

I'll readily admit that quantitative basketball analysis isn't my specialty, so I'll defer to those who know more about it than I do. I know some dispute the existence of such a thing as "clutch" as well, and I'm not sure if that's still the case. But if a player can consistently perform well in the postseason when teams are competing for championships, that helps his team win. Obviously, players are human beings and not robots you can just program to perform the same 100% of the time, but players whose sub-par to poor performances are less frequent will help their team more. The fifth criterion on my list is:

The ability to rise to the occasion during big games and crucial moments in order to bring about the ultimate objective of winning, and the mental fortitude to do so.

So it's pertinent to my rankings.

On the subject of Miller, I saved the posts of yours and Doctor MJ's from last project, and in conjunction with qualitative stuff I already had, I'm impressed. I haven't decided where to rank him (as I haven't ranked anyone), but I may re-post some of them once Miller becomes a candidate.

-I would agree -- independent of some of the box numbers being thrown around -- that Malone is not as good of an offensive players (RS or PS) as West or Dirk or Barkley. But Malone is a mirror to one's rankings criteria. He will lose, by a small but clear amount, most peak-to-peak battles against every other player in this range. So what? If you value career value, this is literally irrelevant. I think this is where having a clear ranking rubric is paramount, not for anything to do with egos or fandom of rankings but so you are clearly communicating what exactly you are ranking.

I agree 100%. That's why I created a list of criteria of what I value in order to guide the formation of a list since I never bothered making one before (even after last project), and have referred back to it on occasion. The problem is that no one explicitly states what their criteria is, no one knows what anyone's criteria is, which ends up in people talking past each other as they all value different things and thus no one's on the same page.

Speaking for myself, I want to understand an argument, even if I don't necessarily agree. Which is why on occasion I may ask a question so they can expound. It's a given that everyone won't agree at all times, as everyone's coming from a different place. I won't agree with everyone all the time, and everyone isn't going to agree with me at all times. So long as it's done civilly and respectfully, there's nothing wrong with that. I believe I said in this thread, "based on my criteria, I don't see x, though different people value different things." It's acknowledging and allowing for the fact that other people have other criteria, and thus I'm not saying my way is the way. I've put "Con" argument sections after some players on my list outlining the arguments against some posters have made, and I can understand some arguments based on the criteria they seem to be using even if I don't agree with the ranking and it isn't how I would do it.

Ironically, Dr. J is in the runoff with West and I would not quickly concede that Malone is a worse offensive player Erving. I think Erving's defense is phenomenal -- think peak LeBron as an athletic force -- but there are some issues with his offensive game that are not readily overcome with incredible slashing. Malone, OTOH, is probably the most misrepresented player statistically I can think of on real gm. Even from 92-98, he was a 27 ppg player at +1.8 TS% against 103.9 defenses in the PS. Malone played 85 prime games against sub-105 defenses, averaging 23/36 on 52.5% TS with 2.9 ast/36 and 2.4 tov. (+2.3 OBEV). Compare that to other all-timers:

vs. Sub-105 defenses in prime, PS, per 36
Olajuwon (29g) 20.6 | 55.1% TS | 3.1 ast | 3.1 tov | +2.2 OBEV
Malone (85g) 23.0 pts | 52.5% TS | 2.9 ast | 2.8 tov | +2.3 OBEV
Kobe (105g) 23.3 pts | 52.6% TS | 4.3 ast | 2.6 tov | +2.7 OBEV
Duncan (85g) 20.5 pts | 54.6% TS | 3.3 ast | 2.9 tov | +2.9 OBEV

Finally, while it's true that a 30 ppg/60% TS can be an average offensive player, a player can also be a 25 ppg/50% TS and be an elite offensive player. He does this with creation. With passing. With spacing. By bearing a role around teammates that sees him take more shots late in the clock, etc. By shooting more in the half-court (where expected pts/pos are lower). By not stopping the ball for no reason and by not passing the ball late in the clock when he's the best option. As a good example, in 2005, Tracy McGrady (an excellent creator himself) led a +6.3 offense (after the Wesley trade) while averaging 27 ppg and 53.2% TS, 0.3% over league average. Malone, of course, was a phenomenal passer.

The only bigs left on the board who could do more with that offense -- Dirk and Barkley -- give something back on defense anyway.

I'll let you know that I saved your pro-Malone posts from the last Top 100 Project, and pasted them into my GOAT list document for consideration as I decide on where to ultimately rank him, if I do actually finish this. I'm open to differing viewpoints that aren't agenda-based so long as the rational is provided. Granted, I may not necessarily end up agreeing, but I'll still consider the argument. I still haven't decided on a placement for him yet, so that's still open as I didn't have a list to begin with, so I have no pre-established placement he should be at. I'll continue to read posts and mull over them as I make my decision.

I haven't decided on Dirk or Barkley either, though you've talked about Losers Bias with Malone, and Dirk is an interesting example as I was looking at my notes. Before 2011--rightly or wrongly--Dirk was looked at as a choker as well. I was there and I have the articles. Yet after he won, everyone did a 180 and he became talked about as one of the greatest playoff performers ever. So, relating to your question about Malone, would Dirk still be regarded as a choker today had he not won in 2011? How would he be thought of? It's an interesting thought exercise, for me anyway.

[E-Balla]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

[ardee]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

Good point. The only times I've heard such things about Doc's defense is from a few of his fans on this board.

I'm not saying he was a bad defender, but if he was really that legendary, he'd have more of a reputation for it.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[90sAllDecade]

Alright, I'll go ahead and post this about Dr. J's defense in his prime until age 30 from his ABA/NBA days along with an article I found and other info. I only list when he lead his team in Drtg as the stat can get hazy in other context.


Statistical Defensive Stats

Julius Erving

71-72

Rookie, Team Drtg 6th of 11 teams
Lead team in D. Rebs
No blocks, steals, Def. accolades or Drtg stats available.

72-73

Team Drtg 7th of 11 teams
Lead team in D. Rebs
Incomplete blks, stls and no other data.

73-74

Team Drtg 1st of 11 teams
Lead team in Def. Rebs, Stls, Blks and Drtg (#2 in ABA) Regular Season.
2nd in Def. Rebs, 3rd Stls, tied 1st Blks in the playoffs.

74-75

Team Drtg: 2nd of 10 teams
Lead team in Def. Rebs, Blks and Drtg (#2 in ABA). 2nd Stls in the Regular Season.
2nd Def. Rebs, 5th Stls, tied 2nd Blks in the Playoffs.

75-76

Team Drtg: 1st of 9 teams
Lead team in Def. Rebs, Stls, Blks and Drtg (#1 in ABA) in Regular Season.
Lead team in Def. Rebs, Stls, Blks and Drtg in Playoffs.

76-77

Team Drtg: 4th of 22 teams
Lead team in Stls, Blks, 2nd in Def. Rebs in RS.
Lead team in Stls, 2nd in Blks, 4th in Def. Rebs in PO.

77-78

Team Drtg: 8th of 22 teams
Lead team in Stls, 3rd in Blks in RS.
Lead team in Stls, Blks and 2nd in Def. Rebs in playoffs.

78-79

Team Drtg: 2nd of 22 teams
2nd in Stls, 3rd in Blks, 3rd in Def. Rebs in RS
2nd in Stls, 2nd in Blks, 3rd in Def. Rebs in PO

79-80

Team Drtg: 1st of 22 teams
2nd in Stls, tied for 2nd in Blks, 3rd Def. Rebs in RS.
2nd in Stls, tied for 2nd in Blks, 2nd Def. Rebs, tied for 1st in Drtg in PO.

80-81

Team Drtg: 2nd of 23 teams
Lead team in Blks, 2nd in Stls, 3rd Def. Rebs, tied for #1 in Drtg (4th in NBA).
Lead team in Blks, 2nd in Stls, 3rd Def. Rebs in PO.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 65,5506779

Julius Erving can be considered the founder and president of the 100-100 Club. He tallied 181 steals and 127 blocked shots for the Virginia Squires (ABA) in 1972-73, his second professional season. Erving is also the first member of the even more exclusive Top Ten Club. Erving accumulated a record 12 100-100 Club appearances in his 16-season career. Erving missed the cut for a 13th season in 1977-78 by only three blocked shots. He almost certainly exceeded 100 steals and 100 blocked shots in his rookie year (when such records were not kept), meaning that he was a consistent threat in both categories until his 15th campaign, when he was 36 years old! Erving set the standard with six Top Ten Club seasons and he missed having a seventh in 1981-82 when he finished 11th in the NBA in steals, .012 spg behind 10th place. In 1975-76, Erving logged the first 200-100 Club season, ranking third in the ABA in steals (207) and seventh in the ABA in blocked shots (160). Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Olajuwon are the only other 200-100 players; Jordan is the only player who did it twice and those were the only two seasons in his career that he blocked at least 100 shots.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/200 ... hawks.html


Here's some highlights for fun as well, pretty much everyone likes to see Dr. J fly through the air and create. And with the 70s music and psychedelic, technicolor visuals I thought it had a nice classic feel to it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7TPIktqYR8[/youtube]

[DQuinn1575]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

Good point. The only times I've heard such things about Doc's defense is from a few of his fans on this board.

I'm not saying he was a bad defender, but if he was really that legendary, he'd have more of a reputation for it.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Doc played with
Bobby Jones - legendary defender
Mo Cheeks - great point guard defender
Caldwell Jones - pretty good defensive anchor

So, he was frequently down as 3rd to 4th best defender on his team -definitely not bad, and a good steal guy and decent block guy for forward.

But the Sixers, despite this talent, weren't dominating the league on defense. I'm not faulting Doc for this, but he really shouldn't get any plus here - he is below West (and Karl Malone) as defender.

I've been struggling with this vote - both great players.

In the end, I'm going with West's defense and his playmaking to give him the edge. West was a true 1/2 guard - he could be the point, as he racked up a lot of assists - he was no Oscar or Magic, but he played off the ball much better than they did -

he didn't have to play the point, but he could. I'm not sure how many top tier guys we can say that about.

Scoring between Doc and West, pretty even
Playoff performance - two legendary guys - fairly even
longevity - maybe a slight edge to Doc
Defense - to West
Rebounding - Doc is a good rebounding forward -West a good rebounding guard - edge to Doc
ballhandling/passing - Doc is above average, but nothing special. West was top notch at point.



Vote for Jerry West at 14

[DQuinn1575]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 65,5506779

Did you look for any articles from that year after the Celtics came back from a 3-1 deficit and Bird scored 32,25, and 23 points?
Bird scored 187 points in 7 games -about 27 a game that series - if that is the evidence that Doc was superior defender than it just doesn't cut it - then or now.

[ardee]

The 1981 ECF between Boston and Philly is IMO one of the most historically important series' ever, and I've researched it quite a bit.

Bird seemed to be the one having real defensive impact in that series. Dominating the defensive boards, playing the passing lanes, blocking shots in a free safety role... Hell, he had 5 steals and 3 blocks in the game 7 winner. When they played earlier in the season, Bird had 5 steals in the first quarter!

There's really not that much about Doc on defense in comparison.

[penbeast0]

Morning update:

13 Jerry West (penbeast0, RayBan-Sematra, ShaqAttack3234, ardee, batmana, RSCD3_, tsherkin, HeartbreakKid, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Moonbeam, GC Pantalones, DQuinn1575)

12 Julius Erving (Warspite, john248, drza, Dhodgkins, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, Baller2014, trex_8063, ronnymac2, magicmerl, JordansBulls, basketballefan)