RealGM Top 100 List #14

[Baller2014]

Actually it's 13-12 with West leading. You have missed bballefan for Dr J and Quinn for West. Thanks, I will fix it

[penbeast0]

Did you look for any articles from that year after the Celtics came back from a 3-1 deficit and Bird scored 32,25, and 23 points?
Bird scored 187 points in 7 games -about 27 a game that series - if that is the evidence that Doc was superior defender than it just doesn't cut it - then or now.

If you notice, it said Bird scored 67 the 1st 2 games before they switched Doc onto him (against Caldwell Jones who was no stiff defensively!), that means he scored only around 24/game after the switch rather than 33.5 -- a good defender can't stop a Larry Bird from scoring, can only lessen his volume and efficiency and it seems from your own numbers that Doc slowed Bird down after the switch.

(Of course, not all possessions are against one defender either before or after the switch and there are doubleteams and defensive adjustments to consider as well).

[rich316]

Wow, this is a tough vote. I'm going with Julius Erving.

I was very, very impressed with West when I started researching him a few threads ago. I think he's got a game that can pretty much be depended upon to be an All-NBA 1st team guard in any era - no fears of portability from the 60s for me. Of course, Dr. J is obviously equally as portable. Both players might have been even better in the current era, as athletic wings who can score and create. There have been some convincing Dr. J posts here, and I admit that he was one of the guys who slipped under my radar a bit. I don't think there's any part of his game that was significantly less effective than West, except he has obvious physicality advantages and has much greater longevity/durability. He's not as good a shooter, but he is more efficient due to his attacking game. For those saying it's a small gap in longevity, it's really not. West played for fewer years, and missed way more games. Dr. J is giving you much greater consistent impact than West on the basis of games played. Between two very comparable players, that's enough to swing my vote.

[DQuinn1575]

Did you look for any articles from that year after the Celtics came back from a 3-1 deficit and Bird scored 32,25, and 23 points?
Bird scored 187 points in 7 games -about 27 a game that series - if that is the evidence that Doc was superior defender than it just doesn't cut it - then or now.

If you notice, it said Bird scored 67 the 1st 2 games before they switched Doc onto him (against Caldwell Jones who was no stiff defensively!), that means he scored only around 24/game after the switch rather than 33.5 -- a good defender can't stop a Larry Bird from scoring, can only lessen his volume and efficiency and it seems from your own numbers that Doc slowed Bird down after the switch.

(Of course, not all possessions are against one defender either before or after the switch and there are doubleteams and defensive adjustments to consider as well).

Fair enough: Bird in 1981 playoffs

vs Chicago 23.5 ppg
vs Caldwell Jones 33.5 ppg (games 1-2)
vs Doctor J 24.0 ppg (5 games 3 -7)
vs Houston 15.3 ppg

Bird played well against Sixers, and Doc played good defense. Just not enough for me to give him too much credit to move the needle on an all-time listing.

[Doctor MJ]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

Just speaking generally, something ask people to keep their minds open to is the sheer scale of how huge of an impact narrative can have on how players were perceived back in the day. It's still a big factor now, especially on defense, but it was even bigger back then.

For example, any superficial analysis of the '70s Knicks would have you think that Willis Reed was a superstar and Walt Frazier was his sidekick. This is patently untrue though. Frazier was clearly the more important of the two over the course of their prime run together. So what happened?

1. Reed came first to the Knicks, and Frazier when he came wasn't even supposed to be a star (that was Bill Bradley).

2. Reed supplied an emotional narrative: His injured Game 7 made him a legend...even though he hardly did anything out there, and Frazier put up megastar numbers.

3. More subjectively: Reed played "the right way", whereas Frazier was "one of those flashy black players". Frazier's hip attire was part of this too.

The last thing made make you skeptical of what I'm saying, but it is indisputable that with the challenge of the ABA, the NBA looked to emphasize what it saw as its competitive advantage, and since it was a league that had been utterly dominated by bigs known at least as much for defense as offense, and since the "flashy" game reminded of streetball, they emphasized that.

As we analyze Julius Erving today what we see is:
1) A superstar who racked up blocks & steals as his team's primary help defender
2) While basically always playing on healthy, successful defenses
3) Who it's really easy to find reports of him being a tremendous impactor on defense

Forget about everything else relating to Erving and just consider what we know of All-D awards even now: Wouldn't we expect that to be enough to give him a great reputation that let him earn a ton of such awards?

It must be something else that got in the way then, and what we know for a fact is that narrative was in the way. The ABA was seen as the league of flash. A supposed "offense-only league". And who was "The League", the face of it all. The guy with the most graceful moves anyone had ever seen (and I'd argue he still probably has that standing)? The guy with the fun nickname? It was Dr. J.

I think for the most part people who weren't on the ABA side of things just categorized Erving as an offensive guy and that was that for his All-D accolades.

[PCProductions]

Runoff vote: Jerry West

I'm catching up after a 5-day weekend away from both work and basketball stuff (that Paul George injury was not something I enjoyed coming back to) and I'm reading some great, great stuff on the Doctor, Mr. Clutch and Malone. I would have voted for Dirk again here, and congrats to Kobe on the 13th spot which seems like an appropriate spot for him, but we have a runoff without swish it seems.

Why West? Well, I'll be honest and admit that I wasn't exactly alive when he played and all of my knowledge on the guy comes from stories from my dad, what I have read here and footage on youtube. At a glance on his bkref page, this guy could score in bunches. He's the NBA logo for a reason, and the guy was a proven winner despite having only won a single ring in his career. The year that he did was when he and Wilt agreed a good share of scoring and went on to achieve the current NBA record for longest win streak. This guy, for a while, was considered the best two-guard until that guy on the Bulls came along.

Picking him over the Doctor was simply a choice of his long, reliable prime in the more competitive league. He was an all star every year of his 14-year career, as was Erving, but did so in the NBA rather than the ABA. I'm a big fan of Erving's game, but it feels like West is the more deserving player of a higher spot if not simply for his influence on the game, especially foreshadowing the dominance that guards would have many years later.

[dautjazz]

I'm not one of the voters, but in terms of basketball players I'd probably give Dr. J a small edge, but if we only consider NBA careers, then West slightly.

[Notanoob]

I know that in the previous thread I was shilling pretty hard for Jerry West, but at that time it was simply in relation to Kobe. Dr. J had very little momentum and I hadn't seen a lot about him.

Having seen more of him and read more about him in this thread and elsewhere, the more I find myself leaning towards Erving. His jumper hurts him (not a great jump shooter, didn't have very long range it seems to me), but everything else about his game is really top-notch.

[Jim Naismith]

(Note: Of the top 15 players on ElGee’s Championship Odds Indicator, only Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Erving and Kobe met or surpassed expectations in the careers they actually had.)

ElGee’s Championship Odds from http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1316865

Note: A premium is placed on portability, that is, impact on good teams. Thus, effective second options are prized more than some first options

Championships: Expected & Actual
Jordan....................5.03, 6
Russell....................4.75, 11
Kareem...................4.29, 6
Hakeem..................3.97, 2
Shaq......................3.91, 4
Duncan....................3.80, 5
KG.........................3.70, 1
Wilt........................3.56, 2
Karl Malone...............3.50, 0
Bird........................3.33, 3
Magic......................3.31, 5
Dr. J.......................3.13, 3
LeBron....................3.07, 2
Kobe.......................2.95, 5
Oscar......................2.56, 1
West.......................2.38, 1
Barkley....................2.38, 0
Robinson..................2.33, 2
Dirk........................2.32, 1
Pippen.....................2.14, 6
Nash.......................2.08, 0
Ewing......................1.85, 0
Moses......................1.74, 1
Wade......................1.72, 3
Kidd........................1.70, 1

[G35]

[...]

Regarding West defensively.
I am thinking that West was one of the greatest help defenders ever at the guard position.
He had underrated athletic ability combined with ultra long arms and amazing timing.

Even at age 35 while only playing 30mpg he averaged nearly 3spg/1bpg.
He was probably a lock for 3+spg / 1+bpg in his actual Prime.

I think Jerry is clearly the best candidate for this spot.
He was a better scorer and playmaker then Erving and while I am high on Erving's defensive ability West was no pushover on that end.

“What people don’t realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever,” Red Auerbach said (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA, in the Words of the Men Who Played, Coached, and Built Pro Basketball, p. 191). The NBA All-Defensive Teams didn’t exist until West’s ninth season in the league, but in the six years that he played, he was a four-time First Team selection (1970-73) and one-time Second Team selection (1969).

“His offense is so great that people sometimes overlook the other things he does for his team,” Wilt Chamberlain said of West. “By his mere presence he creates so many mismatches. He has such quick hands that he is always a threat to steal the ball. I don’t think Jerry is as great on one-on-one. You know where he has to guard a guy one-on-one. Like maybe Howard Komives. But what Jerry is able to do is play his man tough enough and then when the man passes off, he’s able to anticipate the pass and steal the ball as quick as anyone in the league. He’s just a good all-around basketball player and I don’t think there’s anyone better” (Williamson Daily News, Jan 6, 1971).

“I wish they had kept track of steals when Jerry and I played because we would have been the league leaders,” Lenny Wilkens said. “He had hands that were as quick as a snake’s tongue” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191). Steals weren’t kept until the 1973-74 season—West’s last in the league, but in the first year they were recorded, West had 10 steals in a game Dec. 7, 1973 in a 115-111 loss to Seattle to set a single-game record. Feb. 3, 1974, West had 19 points, 14 rebounds, 10 assists and seven steals in a 124-91 win over Portland. In the 1973-74 season, West had 81 steals in 31 games (2.62 spg), in 967 minutes at 35 years old. His steal percentage was 3.6, and his block percentage 1.1.

In Game 3 of the 1962 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics, West stole Sam Jones’ in-bounds pass to Bob Cousy at midcourt with three seconds left and scored on a layup to give the Lakers a 117-115 win. In Game 2 of the 1963 Western Division Finals against the St. Louis Hawks, West “stole a Hawk pass in the dying seconds […], dribbled into scoring range and swished the ball for the deciding basket” (Gettysburg Times, Apr 2 1963) for a 101-99 win. Jan. 17, 1968, West had seven rebounds, 10 assists and 12 steals. Nov. 9, 1968, West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory. Dec. 6, 1968, West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta. In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division Semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” (Ocala Star Banner, Apr 8, 1970) in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1. Nov. 11, 1970, West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle. Dec. 13, 1971, West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for the Lakers’ 22nd consecutive win. In the 1972 All Star Game, West had 13 points on 6-for-9 shooting—seven in the fourth quarter, six rebounds, five assists and six steals in 27 minutes and hit the game-winning 21-footer over Walt Frazier for a 112-110 West win. Jan. 23, 1972, West “scored 37 points, made at least nine steals, hit 15 of 26 shots, passed off for 13 assists and generated sparks in a sizzling fast break” in a 118-105 win over Milwaukee. Nov. 11, 1972, West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.

Jerry West Nips Hawks In Clutch

ATLANTA (AP) — “They don’t call Jerry West ‘Mister Clutch’ for nothing,” said Los Angeles Coach Bill Sharman after the veteran guard sparked the Lakers to a last-minute 102-100 National Basketball Association victory over the Atlanta Hawks.

A steal by West from the Hawks’ Pete Maravich in the closing minutes, sealed the Lakers’ victory Sunday afternoon before a crowd of 8,478 at the Omni and a national television audience.

West, incidentally, led the Lakers with 37 points. Maravich had 28 for the Hawks.

“People keep saying he’s going to slow down,” Sharman said of West. “But he doesn’t. That steal from Maravich decided the game.”

Until that point, the Hawks only trailed by a point at 95-94. Then West went into his act and the Lakers had a 99-94 edge and eventually the game.

“In close games, West seems to take over,” said Sharman of his 34-year-old backcourt ace.
(Waycross Journal-Herald, Jan 15, 1973.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HQ ... 12,1356092)

Mar. 2, 1973, Lakers’ coach Bill Sharman said, “Jerry West is the greatest defensive guard who’s ever played in the NBA” after West had 19 points, eight assists and nine steals in 33 minutes after coming back from a 10-game injury hiatus to lead the Lakers to a 108-88 win over Chicago. Mar. 25, 1973, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three, in a 109-93 win over Seattle. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA. He had those long arms and great quickness that was very deceptive until he stole the ball from you a few times. […] He is one of the very few players that was a true superstar on offense and defense. There are only a couple of other players in the history of the league that you can say that about at both ends of the court. Many are superstars at one end, but not both.

“West’s size is deceiving,” wrote Phil Elderkin. “While he is only 6ft. 3in. and 185 pounds, his arm span from fingertip to fingertip is 81 inches. He has the reach of a man 6-7 or 6-8.” “Red used to say that you don’t judge a player by only his height, you need to consider the length of his arms,” John Havlicek said. “Jerry had something like a 39-inch sleeve. He was 6-foot-2, but he had the arms of a man 6-foot-7. That made him so tough when he guarded you. He could use those long arms to poke away your dribble, I mean really pick your pocket” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

“Coach John Kerr of the Bulls proved he knows whereof he speaks before last night’s game when he was asked for an opinion on West’s switch to guard Robinson. ‘He is the best defensive guard in the league,’ Kerr said” (Robert Logan, “Lakers Deals Bulls 3D Playoff Loss: West Stops Robinson in 93-87 Victory.” Chicago Tribune, Mar 30, 1968). In an ESPN SportsNation Chat with Sam Jones, Jones said: “I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.”

“Jerry was so methodical,” John Vanak said. “He wore you out with his jump shot, his relentless defense, and unlike a lot of guards, he had enough guts to go under the basket for rebounds” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

I "And 1'd" this post and I really like what it had to say about West. The only question I have about it is, that in this current era, steals and blocks seem to not be in vogue. Throughout those articles they tout Jerry's quick hands and all the times he got high amounts of steals. I notice that Wilt said that Jerry wasn't the best at one on one but he was able to drive his man and anticipate when he was going to pass the ball and make the steal.

I think that is an excellent form of defense, however it seems now a steal is "meh" to everyone and it's all about positioning and driving your man into the baseline or towards help. The mantra I hear on this board is steals are a poor way of judging someone's defense. Not that I fully agree with that.....

[90sAllDecade]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 65,5506779

Did you look for any articles from that year after the Celtics came back from a 3-1 deficit and Bird scored 32,25, and 23 points?
Bird scored 187 points in 7 games -about 27 a game that series - if that is the evidence that Doc was superior defender than it just doesn't cut it - then or now.

As was noted, they switched Dr. J on Bird and he scored less, due to Erving's better defense. Julius was a tough matchup for Bird even in old age.

West's couldn't stop Oscar defensively and I don't see evidence he was ever a defensive anchor, what proof is there West was a defensive anchor at any point (besides steals which can be iffy)? I also wonder how good his defense would translate to modern era PGs and SGs?

There's also questions about his ball handling, since turnovers weren't listed in his era and he primarily used a dominant hand. Julius' height, being an above the rim player with a better vertical defensive game and superior athleticism would translate better imo. Defense is also more impactful for a SF than a PG/SG imo and Erving was an excellent help defender, which extends his team defensive impact being closer to the rim than West.

I value it less, but he was a legitimate defensive anchor on those ABA teams and still very good on the Sixers. He also would guard the opposing team's best small forwards and power forwards. (he would likely guard primarily swing men in the modern era)

He was an excellent all around player who was also an underrated defender. In his ABA days, he would guard the best forward, whether small forward or power forward, for over 40 minutes a game, and simultaneously be the best passer, ball handler, and clutch scorer every night. Many of Erving's acrobatic highlight feats and clutch moments were unknown because of the ABA's scant television coverage. He is considered by many as the greatest dunker of all time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Erving


Here's an outside post I found about West guarding Oscar (he didn't slow him down, it seems Oscar got slightly better as well)

Oscar Robertson vs Jerry West Career Head to Head

Spoiler:

I have decided to compile the never before seen Oscar Robertson vs. Jerry West Head-to-Head data. It's interesting because the two men were no doubt the greatest guards in the 60's. They were known to guard each other during games and Jerry West said that as a young player Oscar was the guy he looked up to. And that Oscar is the player he tried to get better than and saw as his main competitor because he was the best guard he ever faced. I've excluded the numbers where either player was injured and DNP. I tried to indicate beside the data in parentheses when the player did dress but was hobbled. West generally played through more nagging injuries than the Big O. Without further ado here is the data for every season.

* indicates that the rpg/apg numbers are missing for some games in that season

1960-1961

Oscar: 32.9 ppg, 9.8 rpg*, 11.9 apg*

West: 18.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg*, 5.0 apg*

Royals win 8-5.

1961-1962

Oscar: 31.4 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 10.2 apg

West: 34.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg*, 7.0 apg*

Lakers win 7-4.

1962-1963

Oscar: 31.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 11.6 apg*

West: 30.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg*, 6.0 apg*

Lakers win 5-1.

1963-1964

Oscar: 30.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg on 44.2 %FG

West: 28.4 ppg, 8.0 rpg*, 7.0 apg*

Lakers win 4-3.

1964-1965

Oscar: 35.6 ppg, 7.9 rpg*, 11.4 apg*

West: 31.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg*, 5.2 apg*

Royals win 5-4.

1965-1966

Oscar: 35.7 ppg, 6.9 rpg*, 11.1 apg*

West: 35.4 ppg, 6.6 apg*, 8.0 apg*

Lakers win 6-4.

1966-1967

Oscar: 32.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg*, 10.8 apg*

West: 29.7 ppg, 6.2 rpg*, 6.6 apg*

Lakers win 5-2.

1967-1968

Oscar: 33.0 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 6.0 apg on 29.7 %FG (injured much of the season)

West: 22.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.0 apg on 72.7 %FG (injured much of the season)

Lakers win 1-0.

1968-1969

Oscar: 23.8 ppg, 4.7 rpg*, 9.3 apg*

West: 26.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg*, 8.7 apg*

Lakers win 4-2.

1969-1970

Oscar: 20.0 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 7.3 apg on 39.3 %FG

West: 30.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 8.0 apg on 48.7 %FG

Lakers win 4-2.

1970-1971

Oscar: 15.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 7.3 apg on 52.2 %FG

West: 15.0 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 8.3 apg on 31.6 %FG (played injured for many games and missed the playoffs)

Bucks win 4-1.

1971-1972

Oscar: 15.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 6.8 apg on 39.1 %FG

West: 26.8 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.5 apg on 44.4 %FG

Lakers win 3-1.

1972 Western Division Finals

Oscar: 9.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 36.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

West: 21.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 8.3 apg on 34.8 %FG

Lakers win 4-2.

1972-1973

Oscar: 12.8 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.6 apg on 46.4 %FG (many minor injuries)

West: 17.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 7.0 apg on 42.0 %FG (leg injuries)

Bucks win 3-2.

1973-1974

Oscar: 8.0 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 7.0 apg on 25.0 %FG (nagging shoulder and back injuries)

West: 18.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg on 38.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

Lakers win 1-0.


Cumulative Regular Season Head-to-Head Numbers (1960-1961 through 1973-1974)

Oscar: 28.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg*, 9.7 apg*

West: 27.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg*, 7.2 apg*

Cumulative Playoff Head-to-Head Numbers (1972 WDF)

Oscar: 9.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 36.1 %FG (pulled abdominal muscle)

West: 21.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 8.3 apg on 34.8 %FG

The two men have met 91 times in those 14 seasons with West's Lakers having a 52-39 edge in wins over Oscar's Royals and Bucks teams. In their one encounter in the postseason in 1972 WDF West's Lakers beat Oscar's Bucks 4-2 in one of the all-time great series.

Oscar hit the ground running much faster than West and really dominated through the early seasons but by 1965 West had caught up and from 1968 onwards Jerry was the greater player although perhaps never as great as peak Oscar?

[E-Balla]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

Just speaking generally, something ask people to keep their minds open to is the sheer scale of how huge of an impact narrative can have on how players were perceived back in the day. It's still a big factor now, especially on defense, but it was even bigger back then.

For example, any superficial analysis of the '70s Knicks would have you think that Willis Reed was a superstar and Walt Frazier was his sidekick. This is patently untrue though. Frazier was clearly the more important of the two over the course of their prime run together. So what happened?

1. Reed came first to the Knicks, and Frazier when he came wasn't even supposed to be a star (that was Bill Bradley).

2. Reed supplied an emotional narrative: His injured Game 7 made him a legend...even though he hardly did anything out there, and Frazier put up megastar numbers.

3. More subjectively: Reed played "the right way", whereas Frazier was "one of those flashy black players". Frazier's hip attire was part of this too.

The last thing made make you skeptical of what I'm saying, but it is indisputable that with the challenge of the ABA, the NBA looked to emphasize what it saw as its competitive advantage, and since it was a league that had been utterly dominated by bigs known at least as much for defense as offense, and since the "flashy" game reminded of streetball, they emphasized that.

Still Walt was 1st team all pro, 1st team all defense, and 4th in MVP voting and from 70-75 he was regarded as the leader of the Knicks. Outside of Willis taking 2 FMVPs from him he was usually properly rewarded for his performance.

As we analyze Julius Erving today what we see is:
1) A superstar who racked up blocks & steals as his team's primary help defender
2) While basically always playing on healthy, successful defenses
3) Who it's really easy to find reports of him being a tremendous impactor on defense

Forget about everything else relating to Erving and just consider what we know of All-D awards even now: Wouldn't we expect that to be enough to give him a great reputation that let him earn a ton of such awards?

It must be something else that got in the way then, and what we know for a fact is that narrative was in the way. The ABA was seen as the league of flash. A supposed "offense-only league". And who was "The League", the face of it all. The guy with the most graceful moves anyone had ever seen (and I'd argue he still probably has that standing)? The guy with the fun nickname? It was Dr. J.

I think for the most part people who weren't on the ABA side of things just categorized Erving as an offensive guy and that was that for his All-D accolades.

Dr. J still only made the all defense team once in the ABA and once the merger happened some ABA guys (Buse, Moses, Jones, Gilmore, etc) were making all defense teams. I used to be a believer in Dr. J being a great impactful defender but now I'm not so sure. At least I'm not sure enough to place him over West (like I previously have) and possibly Dirk.

[90sAllDecade]

Many have said how accolades like Defensive teams can be iffy, and like Kobe some can be reputation based in old age (How much did Wilt Chamberlain's rim protection enhance West's perimeter defense those years as well?). Also, how is defense at PG or SG more impactful than a better rim protector closer to the front line at SF/PF?

Jerry West Blks per Game & Blk% at age 35 (only year available):

0.7 Bpg
1.1 Blk%

Julius Erving Blks per Game & Blk% at age 35 (and 36):

1.1 Bpg
1.9 Blk%

1.6 Bpg
2.9 Blk%

This isn't including the overall much better rim protection Dr. J provided throughout his career, likely all better than West, due to height, SF position closer to the rim and superior athletic ability. He gave you about two blocks per game (he was top 10 in blocks six times, twice in the NBA in his thirties), more defensive rebounds than West and excellent steals, his vertical defense was stronger imo.

What is more impactful rim protection or steals; and besides quotes, what real statistical evidence do we have West was more impactful at his PG/SG position with regards to team defense?

[Clyde Frazier]

Just a quick comment on Dr. J which I don't think I emphasized in my previous posts: he sorta gets the rep that he was just a good scorer because of his vertical leap and long arms. If you watch some of the videos i posted of peak erving, his body control and soft touch at the rim was flat out incredible (see here -- http://bit.ly/XBf4XV). He also had an excellent mid range game off the dribble, albeit with an awkward looking jumper. It wasn't until later in his career that he used more swooping / long stride techniques getting the rim. Just an intricacy of his game that i thought i'd point out.

[I'm sure many of you already realize / know this, I just didn't touch on it earlier]

[DQuinn1575]

Just a quick comment on Dr. J which I don't think I emphasized in my previous posts: he sorta gets the rep that he was just a good scorer because of his vertical leap and long arms. If you watch some of the videos i posted of peak erving, his body control and soft touch at the rim was flat out incredible (see here -- http://bit.ly/XBf4XV). He also had an excellent mid range game off the dribble, albeit with an awkward looking jumper. It wasn't until later in his career that he used more swooping / long stride techniques getting the rim. Just an intricacy of his game that i thought i'd point out.

[I'm sure many of you already realize / know this, I just didn't touch on it earlier]

oh goodness, Doctor J around the basket was as good as anyone - ever!!
maybe best finisher of all time.

Jump shot was so-so at best, and definite weakness in his game.

[90sAllDecade]

Doctor J had a good midrange shot and when he used it more often he shot well from three point range above the league average from that era (.395 3pt% above .283 ABA 3pt league average one year) , if were bringing up weaknesses, West's weak left hand would absolutely be a problem translating into the modern era ( I don't agree with every video he puts out, and West was hurt, but he always favored that hand):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMp7c2bcfkk[/youtube]

[Clyde Frazier]

Just a quick comment on Dr. J which I don't think I emphasized in my previous posts: he sorta gets the rep that he was just a good scorer because of his vertical leap and long arms. If you watch some of the videos i posted of peak erving, his body control and soft touch at the rim was flat out incredible (see here -- http://bit.ly/XBf4XV). He also had an excellent mid range game off the dribble, albeit with an awkward looking jumper. It wasn't until later in his career that he used more swooping / long stride techniques getting the rim. Just an intricacy of his game that i thought i'd point out.

[I'm sure many of you already realize / know this, I just didn't touch on it earlier]

oh goodness, Doctor J around the basket was as good as anyone - ever!!
maybe best finisher of all time.

Jump shot was so-so at best, and definite weakness in his game.

Yeah i overstated with excellent -- should've said solid as opposed to nonexistent.

[Narigo]

Im bit iffy about Julius Erving’s ABA career. I don’t think the ABA is comparable to the NBA at all. Most ABA players who made the jump to the NBA saw a statistical drop. Also, there was a considerate amount of ABA players who weren’t good enough to make it to a NBA team. So yeah, I think Erving stats in the ABA are bit inflated because some of the teams in the ABA were comparable to that of the D-League at least pre-1976

So, I think Jerry West is more portable in my opinion because of his ability to space the floor with the outside shot. He can play shooting guard because he can play off-ball and he can run the offense.

Vote: Jerry West

[Doctor MJ]

Still Walt was 1st team all pro, 1st team all defense, and 4th in MVP voting and from 70-75 he was regarded as the leader of the Knicks. Outside of Willis taking 2 FMVPs from him he was usually properly rewarded for his performance.

Good things to point out, but if you ask any novice to look at their accolades and name which they think was the greater player, they'd say Reed by a large margin. Since Frazier was pretty clearly the guy who did more, this is a pretty big discrepancy.

Dr. J still only made the all defense team once in the ABA and once the merger happened some ABA guys (Buse, Moses, Jones, Gilmore, etc) were making all defense teams. I used to be a believer in Dr. J being a great impactful defender but now I'm not so sure. At least I'm not sure enough to place him over West (like I previously have) and possibly Dirk.

Ah, the only 1 All-D ABA thing. Good to mention. This is definitely a legit concern.

So first, let's talk about what you'd hope the All-D 1st team (which was the ONLY team in the ABA would represent). Ideally it would be the top 5 defenders in the entire league. Taken on face value, it shouldn't seem weird that a great defender wouldn't hit it very often. Obviously this is not how many of us see All-D currently in the NBA, but let's just focus on that ideal standard for a second.

Now, Erving's time in Virginia wasn't when he became the superstar people branded the league with. He wasn't as good, and his team wasn't as good. It should come as no surprise he wouldn't get All-D there.

That leaves the 3 years in New York, the last of which he made All-D.

Looking at the first year, '73-74. Erving wins MVP, leads his team in blocks & steals and almost in rebounds, his team has the best record and the best defense, and of course they win the title. I'll say right off the bat, it's hard for me to imagine they were right in leaving him off All-D.

First thing to ask: Was there a pace issue? Meaning, if a team played fast enough that their opponents' PPG was high, that probably messed up perception.

Turns out the Nets were 2nd in Pace. That undoubtedly skewed perceptions, but the Net defense was so good they still looked pretty good even before you adjust for that, so it's not the entire reason.

Next thing to ask: Who else on the Nets made All-D? If there was someone else considered the true defensive MVP instead of Erving, this will tell us.

Answer:
Mike Gale...who played only 32 games with the Nets and played only 28 MPG (and even less in the playoffs, he was clearly getting backups minutes), where Erving played 40 MPG for 84 games.

So, WTF, right? Obviously Erving was more of a defensive MVP for the Nets than Gale. What the hell happened?

Well, I won't justify the choice because I don't think you can, but Gale didn't JUST play for the Nets that year. He played the earlier part of the season with Kentucky, as he had the year before when he earned All-D honors. Kentucky was known as a defensive juggernaut, and they weren't just good, they played at a slow pace which made the D look even better. So clearly Gale got the award again because he already had the reputation along with the fact that people didn't realize how good the Nets defense was.

What of '74-75, the only year not yet discussed?

Well once again the Nets' D is awesome, as is the team overall. They and Kentucky are WAY out in front of everyone else.

Nets making the team? Brien Taylor, who rose up and surpassed Erving to lead the team in steals (Erving led the team in all other major categories). I'd say it's still rather absurd to say he's more valuable on defense than Erving given everything Erving's asked to do, but Taylor at least makes sense as a potential All-D guy if you insist on giving guards an award.

So let's view it from that lens, who were the front court guys who got the nod over Erving:

Artis Gilmore (well, yeah)
Bobby Jones (no complaints)
Will Jones (played for Kentucky with Gilmore, his only All-D btw)

So combination of factors:

Kentucky was awesome, people thought they were even better
They seem to either be sticklers about position, or naive in their assessment of the importance of guards
They probably gave out slots here partly with something of a quota system which meant giving an edge to a second Colonels before a second Net

[An Unbiased Fan]

Runoff Vote #14: Dr. J

Really tough call here, but I feel Dr. J reached heights West never did. Even though I'm not big on the ABA years, It's still remarkable to wing MVP 3 times in that short span, and just dominated offensively/defensively. I also knock West a little because his era wasn't exactly great for perimeter players either. Offensively West has a slight edge, but defensively Erving has the edge. Tiebreakers for me are Dr. J's unbelievable athletic ability coupled with his high IQ.

Wish I had more time to break things down, but this project moves really fast.