RealGM Top 100 List #14

[Doctor MJ]

Im bit iffy about Julius Erving’s ABA career. I don’t think the ABA is comparable to the NBA at all. Most ABA players who made the jump to the NBA saw a statistical drop. Also, there was a considerate amount of ABA players who weren’t good enough to make it to a NBA team. So yeah, I think Erving stats in the ABA are bit inflated because some of the teams in the ABA were comparable to that of the D-League at least pre-1976

So, I think Jerry West is more portable in my opinion because of his ability to space the floor with the outside shot. He can play shooting guard because he can play off-ball and he can run the offense.

Vote: Jerry West

The concern about league differences in quality has been discussed quite a bit.

It's fine to give the NBA and edge in overall quality, but by the last few years this was not big.
Your feeling that there were big fall offs in general when players came over from the ABA is exaggerated. On average in later years there was a small fall off, but that's it.
Beyond that, what we can see from the merger is that that falloff is caused in part by differences in rules/norms. Defenses in the ABA were less successful...but there was no trace of that when they came over to the NBA. The Nuggets were instantly the best defense in the NBA when they came over despite the fact they hadn't been the best ABA defense.

All that said, I voted for West too.

[90sAllDecade]

I'm voting for Julius Erving.

His game translates better across eras since he is a better athlete who can play above the rim unlike West in the modern game.

He is more impactful as a defensive player due to better rim protection and help defense, as well as better defensive rebounding and excellent steals at the SF position, which is more impactful than team defense at PG/SG.

West would likely have trouble translating across modern eras with a weak left hand, and it's questionable how his defense would hold up against bigger, faster, stronger modern PG and SGs.

His pace adjusted stats show Dr. J to be a better volume scorer, rebounder and shot blocker with a higher peak.

He also showed the ability to be a defensive anchor on #1 and #2 ranked ABA defenses and an excellent defender on top ranked NBA defenses.

He also shot above league average from the 3pt line (Well above in ABA days) and had a good mid range shot, as well as being a much better slashing finisher than West.

[DQuinn1575]

I think it is 15-15


15 Jerry West (penbeast0, RayBan-Sematra, ShaqAttack3234, ardee, batmana, RSCD3_, tsherkin, HeartbreakKid, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Moonbeam, GC Pantalones, DQuinn1575,PCProductions,Narigo

15 Julius Erving (Warspite, john248, drza, Dhodgkins, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, Baller2014, trex_8063, ronnymac2, magicmerl, JordansBulls, basketballefan, rich316,An Unbiased Fan, 90sAllDecade)


Might be best to call it a tie - these guys are sooooo close.

[Basketballefan]

Both guys are very deserving of this spot. I can't be mad at either one winning it.

[magicmerl]

I think it is 15-15


15 Jerry West (penbeast0, RayBan-Sematra, ShaqAttack3234, ardee, batmana, RSCD3_, tsherkin, HeartbreakKid, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Moonbeam, GC Pantalones, DQuinn1575,PCProductions,Narigo

15 Julius Erving (Warspite, john248, drza, Dhodgkins, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, Baller2014, trex_8063, ronnymac2, magicmerl, JordansBulls, basketballefan, rich316,An Unbiased Fan, 90sAllDecade)


Might be best to call it a tie - these guys are sooooo close.

That matches my tally. Maybe give it another day?

On another note, I watched some old footage of West last night, and he was pretty unimpressive on defense, but his jumper was money. I think it's possible his defensive prowess was overblown.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it is 15-15


15 Jerry West (penbeast0, RayBan-Sematra, ShaqAttack3234, ardee, batmana, RSCD3_, tsherkin, HeartbreakKid, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Moonbeam, GC Pantalones, DQuinn1575,PCProductions,Narigo

15 Julius Erving (Warspite, john248, drza, Dhodgkins, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, Baller2014, trex_8063, ronnymac2, magicmerl, JordansBulls, basketballefan, rich316,An Unbiased Fan, 90sAllDecade)


Might be best to call it a tie - these guys are sooooo close.

Whoa!

1) Is there anyone who has failed to give a runoff vote who previously voted for someone else?

2) Have we had any runoff this close before?

[Clyde Frazier]

I think it is 15-15


15 Jerry West (penbeast0, RayBan-Sematra, ShaqAttack3234, ardee, batmana, RSCD3_, tsherkin, HeartbreakKid, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Moonbeam, GC Pantalones, DQuinn1575,PCProductions,Narigo

15 Julius Erving (Warspite, john248, drza, Dhodgkins, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, Baller2014, trex_8063, ronnymac2, magicmerl, JordansBulls, basketballefan, rich316,An Unbiased Fan, 90sAllDecade)


Might be best to call it a tie - these guys are sooooo close.

Whoa!

1) Is there anyone who has failed to give a runoff vote who previously voted for someone else?

2) Have we had any runoff this close before?

Yeah, this is pretty amazing. I did say earlier in the thread how it's basically a toss up in my opinion, and probably will just come down to personal preference for some.

[Baller2014]

Dead tie, but there are lots of voters who haven't voted yet. Maybe give it another few hours...

[Notanoob]

I'm voting for Julius Erving.

His game translates better across eras since he is a better athlete who can play above the rim unlike West in the modern game.

He is more impactful as a defensive player due to better rim protection and help defense, as well as better defensive rebounding and excellent steals at the SF position, which is more impactful than team defense at PG/SG.

West would likely have trouble translating across modern eras with a weak left hand, and it's questionable how his defense would hold up against bigger, faster, stronger modern PG and SGs.

His pace adjusted stats show Dr. J to be a better volume scorer, rebounder and shot blocker with a higher peak.

He also showed the ability to be a defensive anchor on #1 and #2 ranked ABA defenses and an excellent defender on top ranked NBA defenses.

He also shot above league average from the 3pt line (Well above in ABA days) and had a good mid range shot, as well as being a much better slashing finisher than West.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points here.

West was a perfectly good athlete with a great first step and was not a poor leaper, along with having very long arms. On the other hand I think that Erving was a worse shooter than you seem to imply. His shot was not that pretty and he's a career 29% 3 point shooter.

I see no reason why West's handle should be questioned either. You give Dr. J credit for having an above average 3 point shot in the ABA, why not give West credit for having a good handle relative to the time period?

With regards to West's defense, given that he stated he was 6'3.5" tall, and that was likely not in shoes, why would a 6'5" PG have issue with the size of guys in today's league?

That being said, I'll cast my tie-breaking run-off vote for Doctor J.

[Baller2014]

Wow, Dr J wins at the last second.

[penbeast0]

OK, calling it for JULIUS ERVING!

[ceiling raiser]

I wish I could break the tie, but there are still too many questions about both for me to pick either.

Are there any good posts in this thread detailing how Dr. J would operate if the paint was less congested? If there are, I might be able to justify a vote for him to break the tie. If not, I'm still leaning West, but I don't think I can cast a vote for him (still concerned about his handles).

EDIT: Fortunately, looks like I don't need to make that call. Congrats Dr. J, though I would've been fine with West here as well.

[90sAllDecade]

I'm voting for Julius Erving.

His game translates better across eras since he is a better athlete who can play above the rim unlike West in the modern game.

He is more impactful as a defensive player due to better rim protection and help defense, as well as better defensive rebounding and excellent steals at the SF position, which is more impactful than team defense at PG/SG.

West would likely have trouble translating across modern eras with a weak left hand, and it's questionable how his defense would hold up against bigger, faster, stronger modern PG and SGs.

His pace adjusted stats show Dr. J to be a better volume scorer, rebounder and shot blocker with a higher peak.

He also showed the ability to be a defensive anchor on #1 and #2 ranked ABA defenses and an excellent defender on top ranked NBA defenses.

He also shot above league average from the 3pt line (Well above in ABA days) and had a good mid range shot, as well as being a much better slashing finisher than West.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few points here.

West was a perfectly good athlete with a great first step and was not a poor leaper, along with having very long arms. On the other hand I think that Erving was a worse shooter than you seem to imply. His shot was not that pretty and he's a career 29% 3 point shooter.

I see no reason why West's handle should be questioned either. You give Dr. J credit for having an above average 3 point shot in the ABA, why not give West credit for having a good handle relative to the time period?

With regards to West's defense, given that he stated he was 6'3.5" tall, and that was likely not in shoes, why would a 6'5" PG have issue with the size of guys in today's league?

That being said, I'll cast my tie-breaking run-off vote for Doctor J.

This is a fair enough stance.

I'll share my perspective. West was a perfectly good athlete, but in comparsion to Erving he's worse imo. And his athleticism at the PG spot by modern standards is questionable. Granted, I may be wrong and will be fine with learning. If someone can show me West was a dominant athlete that could match up with modern PGs, guys like Russell and Wilt I know would still be there athletically imo.

When he focused on it in the ABA, Erving was a good 3pt shooter reaching a .395 3pt% ceiling. To my knowledge West hasn't shown he could play equally elite handling ambidextrously, I never saw that ceiling of potential. We also don't know West's turnover rate, so imo we can't even really credit his handle relative to his time period because we're missing data.

He'd be about 6'5 at SG and then there's the question if he'd be able to get his shot off as well with a weak left hand in the modern NBA. We've seen many great shooters in college not be able to create their own shot at the NBA level in the modern NBA with many quick, long armed perimeter defenders of this era. I also don't think West had the same perimeter defensive competition in the 60s. He played the top defensive Celtics true, but Bill Russell didn't guard West, guys like Cousy or Jones would have.

To be fair to West, the advantage perimeter players have with regards to rules would help him offensively. But those would also help Erving imo. West also didn't have to change teams and Erving was arguably misused in those early Sixers teams and eventually became the #1 option he should have been all along imo, like he was in the ABA.

I started out in this thread voting West, but as I researched I found Erving to much better defensively than I thought and translated better across eras imo. It is very close but I think Dr. J is better right now.

EDIT: and Dr. J would be a big mismatch as a 6'7 SF and SG or a super quick PF in the 60's. He was taller and a better player than Elgin Baylor:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANH50UrlQk8[/youtube]

[john248]

Great run off!

[Notanoob]

This is a fair enough stance.

I'll share my perspective. West was a perfectly good athlete, but in comparsion to Erving he's worse imo. And his athleticism at the PG spot by modern standards is questionable. Granted, I may be wrong and will be fine with learning. If someone can show me West was a dominant athlete that could match up with modern PGs, guys like Russell and Wilt I know would still be there athletically imo.

West is unquestionably an inferior athlete to Erving, LeBron is really the only comparable physical specimen to him among actually good basketball players. I just believe that West is sufficiently athletic to compete at the PG position. He's no Westbrook, but he doesn't have to be.

When he focused on it in the ABA, Erving was a good 3pt shooter reaching a .395 3pt% ceiling. To my knowledge West hasn't shown he could play equally elite handling ambidextrously, I never saw that ceiling of potential. We also don't know West's turnover rate, so imo we can't even really credit his handle relative to his time period because we're missing data.

Dr. J shot on a really tiny volume though. He only took 43 shots that season, that isn't enough to say that he could really shoot 3s. Next year he took 87 3's and shot 33%, the year after that he shot 103 3's and shot 33%. West's handle looks okay in the videos, like Oscar's- poor by our standards because they are limited by the rules, but fine by the standards of the day.

He'd be about 6'5 at SG and then there's the question if he'd be able to get his shot off as well with a weak left hand in the modern NBA. We've seen many great shooters in college not be able to create their own shot at the NBA level in the modern NBA with many quick, long armed perimeter defenders of this era. I also don't think West had the same perimeter defensive competition in the 60s. He played the top defensive Celtic true, but Bill Russell didn't guard West, guys like Cousy or Jones would have.

I consider him a PG on offense, so I wouldn't worry about it, given his height and reach he'd easily be able to shoot over most PGs. And when he was the sole focus of the defense in the 65 finals, with KC Jones on him, who managed to get into the hall of fame on defensive ability alone, he was scoring over 30ppg.

This is about the biggest chunk of footage I can give you on West, which highlights his vert at one point, his first step in all of the slashing highlights, and has defensive highlights starting around 9:30 in. Sure, it's highlight bias, but it does give you some idea of what he was as an athlete and ball handler.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzwR1a8KuA[/youtube]

[Owly]

After racking my brain I'm going with Jerry West here in the runoff. In the end it came down to me doubting Dr. J as a defender. I know his stats and most of realgm say he's great on that end but he was never an All Defense guy and back in his day he was never known as a special defender (and many said he was a weak man defender). That's opposite of West who was highly regarded on that end and who put up numbers on that end too.

Just speaking generally, something ask people to keep their minds open to is the sheer scale of how huge of an impact narrative can have on how players were perceived back in the day. It's still a big factor now, especially on defense, but it was even bigger back then.

For example, any superficial analysis of the '70s Knicks would have you think that Willis Reed was a superstar and Walt Frazier was his sidekick. This is patently untrue though. Frazier was clearly the more important of the two over the course of their prime run together. So what happened?

1. Reed came first to the Knicks, and Frazier when he came wasn't even supposed to be a star (that was Bill Bradley).

2. Reed supplied an emotional narrative: His injured Game 7 made him a legend...even though he hardly did anything out there, and Frazier put up megastar numbers.

3. More subjectively: Reed played "the right way", whereas Frazier was "one of those flashy black players". Frazier's hip attire was part of this too.

The last thing made make you skeptical of what I'm saying, but it is indisputable that with the challenge of the ABA, the NBA looked to emphasize what it saw as its competitive advantage, and since it was a league that had been utterly dominated by bigs known at least as much for defense as offense, and since the "flashy" game reminded of streetball, they emphasized that.

Still Walt was 1st team all pro, 1st team all defense, and 4th in MVP voting and from 70-75 he was regarded as the leader of the Knicks. Outside of Willis taking 2 FMVPs from him he was usually properly rewarded for his performance.

As we analyze Julius Erving today what we see is:
1) A superstar who racked up blocks & steals as his team's primary help defender
2) While basically always playing on healthy, successful defenses
3) Who it's really easy to find reports of him being a tremendous impactor on defense

Forget about everything else relating to Erving and just consider what we know of All-D awards even now: Wouldn't we expect that to be enough to give him a great reputation that let him earn a ton of such awards?

It must be something else that got in the way then, and what we know for a fact is that narrative was in the way. The ABA was seen as the league of flash. A supposed "offense-only league". And who was "The League", the face of it all. The guy with the most graceful moves anyone had ever seen (and I'd argue he still probably has that standing)? The guy with the fun nickname? It was Dr. J.

I think for the most part people who weren't on the ABA side of things just categorized Erving as an offensive guy and that was that for his All-D accolades.

Dr. J still only made the all defense team once in the ABA and once the merger happened some ABA guys (Buse, Moses, Jones, Gilmore, etc) were making all defense teams. I used to be a believer in Dr. J being a great impactful defender but now I'm not so sure. At least I'm not sure enough to place him over West (like I previously have) and possibly Dirk.

Which Jones? Bobby and Caldwell were both from the ABA and both (and I see the etc so I know it wasn't meant to be comprehensive but Dan Roundfield leapt out at me as someone who got a lot of All-D nods who started in the ABA. Just for the sake of completeness from the all-D teams, I recognise Brian Taylor, Maurice Lucas and M.L. Carr as All-D ABA grads, and Don Chaney spent a year in the ABA and came back All-D too).

So certainly being from the ABA didn't preclude you from defensive recognition though none of the above were nearly so synonymous with the ABA as Erving (most only played a couple of years) and the only one somewhat close, Gilmore, might have been short changed on NBA defensive recognition.

I tend to like guys who combine getting blocks and steals and so when they come along hope they're actually good defenders. But there are the Josh Smith types. So the numbers are helpful but not everything.

Not sure how to read the "healthy successful defenses". Virginia were average. Philly were roughly average two out of three years (good in '77) until Bobby Jones came along. Thereafter was it a surprise in a team with Bobby and Caldwell Jones, plus Mo Cheeks, that the D was good (plus Hollins and Mix tended to get positive reviews).

Regarding the ease of finding positive reports on D, I think apart from certain collections (I think you did one in a previous thread, yes? and David Friedman notes some supportive comments, including justifying his gambling tendencies) I think the tendency is much more often to find mixed reviews (albeit probably his defensive peak, the ABA isn't nearly as well reported). For instance

from googling Erving defense the first serious report is

Erving was not a great defensive player

[quote"Jack McCallum"]He rebounded and blocked shots. Like many superstars (see Magic, Bird), he was not a lockdown defender, but he played the passing lanes and turned many a steal into two points.[/quote]

or the Hollander pro basketball handbooks of the era: which after positive ABA reviews

[team section]
Erving and Palutz (with relief from Sojourner) provide a formidable shot-blocking force inside.
...
This was good defensive team last year and should be better with a year's experience

[player profile]became a more complete player adding defense and playmaking to his shooting and rebounding, after coming to the Nets from the Squires last year

[team section]
Ho-hum. The Nets won the championship with street gang defensive manouvers, hurling bodies and beating people. But that might not succeed over the long haul. Erving is an intellgent defensive forward ...

[player profile
]The complete player

Nothing specific about his D, but sounds positive

[team section]
These guys play defense like Bonnie & Clyd, they're either stealing or hiding [section criticising McGinnis for this and noting how well Lucas did against him in the finals] Erving has quickness and intelligence, but he, too, tends to gamble for the crowd pleasing dunk. Lead-footed Steve Mix is , by far, the club's best defensive forward.
[praise for Bibby mild criticism of Collins]
Caldwell Jones, of course, is a premier shot-blocker (fifth in the league) and Erving does enough for him and George.

[player profile]
The ultimate in offensive weaponry ... A complete player who gives you the impression he can score any time he wants [nothing specific on D, as their is on O, the complete player thing, in the context here might just be on O

[team] Coach Bill Cunningham likes to apply pressure, but the concentration is not there. The Sixers play the passing lanes well, resulting in numerous steals. Erving is especially adept at this. Straight up, however, he and his teammates often leave a lot to be desired. If Bobby jones has joined the team in the proposed trade for George McGinnis, there will be a marked improvement.
[player profile]Has defensive weaknesses ... Plays the passing lanes well however, and double teams the ball

[team] The addition of Bobby Jones helped this area immensely and the 76ers finally were able to contain big forwards,. Calwell Jones and Dawkins are fine shot-blockers and Steve Mix works hard. As a defensive player, Erving is a fine dunker.
The 76ers play the passing lanes well and create a lot of turnovers, but straight up they seem to lack intensity.

[player profile] [nothing on his D here]

Not sure about the "fine dunker thing" is it a typo, a gambling thing (gambling leading to easy dunks), an dunk-blocker (seems unlikely) or a backhanded "he doesn't do anything on D so lets just mention an offensive thing again". It might he the last one.

[article]
Perhaps Erving's finest hour last season was in the Eastern finals against the Boston Celtics. It was an emotion-packed series in which the Sixers, behind their team leader, held back nothing. Even Dr. J's defense surfaced sufficiently to derail Cedric Maxwell's offensive thrust.
[team]
Shhh don't tell anybody, but these guys know what it takes to win in the playoffs and when the time came they were a very tenacious defensive lot [praise for their D, specifically in the postseason, then praise for specific individuals Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones and Hollins]
[player profile] [nothing defense specific]

My emphasis on the "even" in the article

[team]
[general praise for D, specific praise for Caldwell and Bobby and to a lesser degree Hollins] Erving did a good job guarding Larry Bird in the playoffs although it obviously took something away from his offense.
[player profile]
Decision to have him face-guard Bird for last five games of Celtics series cost him some offensive effectiveness, but he accepted the task without a question

[team]
[general praise for D despite non-traditional style, praise for Cheeks, especially league leading steals] Caldwell Jones and Erving were ninth and 10th in blocked shots, averaging 1.80 and 1.74 respectively, and there's your transition game [praise for Hollins' man D, big praise for Bobby Jones]
[player profile] ... ranking fifth in the league in scoring (24.4) and tenth in blocked shots (1.74)

And in '84 (written in '83) there's high praise in the team D section for the team but no mention of him specifically (Malone, Cheeks, Toney and Jones get specific name-checks) and his profile has nothing on him regarding D.

Through his best NBA years I don't think it is easy to find reports of tremendous impact on D. The more common feedback was mixed (like Steve .... Steve Mix .... ah screw you guys.) There's indications of a couple of nice defensive series versus Boston and an ability to play the passing lanes but also criticism of gambling, and criticism of defense (man and general). The praise of his D versus Boston is somewhat mixed too in the first instanced in '80 ('81 Handbook) it seemed surprised; then the next year it suggests he can't maintain his O and play strong D, which isn't unusual, but implies a tradeoff.