RealGM Top 100 List #15

[penbeast0]

players I am considering, by position:

C David Robinson to me is the best left in terms of peak. Moses has great longevity though and the third possibility is George Mikan who is the only player left that was the undisputed best player in basketball for a reasonably long stretch of time (5 years +). I rate Robinson higher at the moment because Moses's defense is solid on ball but he isn't a defensive anchor and defensive anchors like the Admiral (anchor, Admiral, oh never mind) tend to have an impact out of proportion to their numbers.

PF Karl Malone is the obvious choice, though I have seen Dirk, Petit, Barkley, and even Rodman rated over him by various posters.

SF Durant is interesting. Don't have as much love for Havlicek as many do; no one here ready.

SG The weakest position left. DWade or Drexler probably the top candidates. Wade is no more healhty than West and lacks the outside shooting and is less dominant; Drexler peaks lower than Wade (but plays more).

PG West with Frazier, Stockman, and Nash as long shots. West was also generating outstanding offenses in LA but he adds excellent defense, super clutch performances, (and outstanding leadership though that can be said of the other remaining PGs as well). Just the most impactful PG remaining by a healthy margin.

To me, West combines the most outstanding combination of dominating his position, great playoff performances, great skills, and great leadership. Erving is the only other candidate that is strong in all key areas but he played in a watered down league in the 70s/80s. Despite this, he's certainly close and either Doc, the Mailman, or the Admiral is my next choice unless someone convinces me I'm underrating someone badly.

VOTE: JERRY WEST

[Baller2014]

Vote- Karl Malone

Karl Malone’s combination of high peak, top notch prime and insane longevity make him the clear choice here for mine. He gets criticised for his playoffs, but his playoff numbers are low only relative to himself. In his physical, statistical and actual prime from age 25-30 he put up 28.5ppg/11.9rpg/2.3 on 56TS% in the playoffs, all while playing brutal man and post D. Funnily enough he was still an MVP candidate at age 36. I know Malone wasn’t getting as much media narrative from age 25-30, because his team hadn’t made the finals yet, but looking at his MVP results from 88-93 the guy was hardly non-existent in the MVP results. He finished 8th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 4th, and 8th and was a perennial all-nba 1st teamer. The year he was 3rd he was behind only Magic and Jordan, and the years he was 4th and 5th he finished behind only Jordan, Magic, Barkley, D.Rob and Drexler.

Many people have made much of West’s playoff performances, but in fact his big scoring in the playoffs is inferior to Malones! Just to highlight again what I'm talking about. From 88-93 K.Malone had a 56% TS. in the playoffs. During that time he put up 29ppg. When we look at this on a pp100 basis to help compensate for the higher pace West played at, here's is how it comes out. K.Malone from 88-93 had per 100 playoff scoring of 33.4, 32.6, 31.4, 35.0, 36.1 and 31.3. In addition, Karl Malone records 4 other playoffs over his career of 37-38pp100 (and in those 4 years his TS% was 550, 534, 584. and 484 when he was 38 years old) and regular season Karl is even better (having multiple seasons of 40pp100 or more, with even higher efficiency).

Now here's West's 5 best years in the 60's as cited by other posters (they're not entirely consecutive like Malone's, so I could have pumped up Malone's stats even more if I'd been allowed to skip/cherry-pick years too, but whatever):
534TS. (on 40pp100), 564TS. (on 32.6pp100), 542TS. (on 31.1pp100), 581TS. (on 30.7pp100) and 596TS. (on 30.1pp100).
So even West's best years show he's scoring less per 100 than Malone (except in one freak season, and in that one freak season his TS is vastly lower). If we averaged those 5 years out Malone would be ahead on both pp100 and TS%. Yet people are criticising Malone for "wilting" in the playoffs, when his playoff scoring is clearly superior to "Mr Clutch" West, who they are praising for playoff play.

Some people have talked about West’s D, but if he was good on D he’s the worst eye test for it ever. Plus, he plays guard, there’s a limited amount a guard (especially one like West) can do on D, whereas Malone can guard other teams bigs, and keep guys out of the paint by making them wary of his elbows and thugforcing.

How good was Karl Malone’s D? Well, Karl Malone was not an inside anchor on D, he couldn't impact a game the way Duncan could, but he was a monster defender through his career. He played great man D, and was one of the dirtiest thug enforcers you'll ever see. His favourite move was to swing his elbows back and forth every time he got a rebound, creating the impression this was just an "instinctive, habit driven move" when he got a board (while often catching players in the face with an elbow). I won't hold it against him (except morally), because he was sly enough to get away with it time and again. You had to be very worried going up against him in the post. He was also a fitness freak, in ridiculous shape, which gave him a tonne of muscle to throw around at other players. Malone caused major injuries with his tough (sneaky) play, even ending the career of some guy in college. He impact on the defensive end is pretty freaking huge.

Check out this video of his amazing post D:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ezVqa2Z8o[/youtube]

Karl Malone and his elbows deserve a whole other category. Players had to be really careful about going inside to score against Malone, he was an extremely sneaky cheap shot artist. Some highlights here:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2KHn1un40g[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgM0Xm4E9UI[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0nIHCR--Bg[/youtube]

[Notanoob]

Jim Naismith has been working hard posting stuff about Moses Malone for us all but has gotten no traction. I think that someone should reward his dedication to this great. I'm not a real fan of his so I don't think that I'm the guy to do it, but we should give a bit more credence to his peak- while he was generally not known as a good defender, what with not getting back in time on defense since he was crashing the offensive glass like no on in history, in 83 his notably stepped up there an had a career year in blocks and improved the team's DRTg from 103.9 to 100.9.

For everyone else, this is likely to come down to West and Mailman, if the last thread is anything to go by, but for me it's more between West and Robinson.

I'd give more consideration to guys like Chuck and Durant, but I'm sure that they have zero shot at this spot. Wade's peak and playoff runs should get him some consideration soon too, he was quite remarkable for a few healthy seasons.

[Doctor MJ]

First thing I'll say is this:

West had a pretty huge lead before the runoff. If memory serves he had around double everyone else, and Erving just barely squeaked past Malone by a vote to get in the runoff.

If that's the case I believe that's the most epic come back we've seen in our runoffs, which raises the question of whether it was people having their mind changes for Erving, or whether there's a strong contingent who doesn't really believe in West.

My request would be for people who fit in to one of those categories to share that with us. The former because it's cool and worth hearing about, the latter because it's relevant to this thread.

[Baller2014]

I don't think I've been soft spoken about my problems with West's era, due to pace inflation and weaker competition.

[90sAllDecade]

I'm leaning toward West here. I think Karl takes a hit offensively without Stockton and he had strong post and man defense but wasn't the shot blocker like Dr. J was despite being a PF and didn't have years as a defensive anchor imo ( I could be wrong though). West was dominant offensively and excellent defensively, but he impacted the game more as a offensive PG to me right now in his individual two way impact.

I'm going to listen and I'm going to be open minded, but those things and that West got much better under pressure versus Karl weigh against Malone for me right now.

I'll also try to finally research Moses and play devils advocate for him.

[DQuinn1575]

First thing I'll say is this:

West had a pretty huge lead before the runoff. If memory serves he had around double everyone else, and Erving just barely squeaked past Malone by a vote to get in the runoff.

If that's the case I believe that's the most epic come back we've seen in our runoffs, which raises the question of whether it was people having their mind changes for Erving, or whether there's a strong contingent who doesn't really believe in West.

My request would be for people who fit in to one of those categories to share that with us. The former because it's cool and worth hearing about, the latter because it's relevant to this thread.

Do you realize from 1972-1974 west's win shares per 48 was higher than doctor j, not even adjusting for league?




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Jim Naismith]

Jim Naismith has been working hard posting stuff about Moses Malone for us all but has gotten no traction. I think that someone should reward his dedication to this great.

Thanks for your remarks!

I'm not a real fan of his so I don't think that I'm the guy to do it, but we should give a bit more credence to his peak- while he was generally not known as a good defender, what with not getting back in time on defense since he was crashing the offensive glass like no on in history, in 83 his notably stepped up there an had a career year in blocks and improved the team's DRTg from 103.9 to 100.9.

In '83, Moses made All-Defense First Team. Not bad for someone not known for his defense.

[colts18]

I might lean towards West because he was much more efficient than Karl Malone.

[ceiling raiser]

Moses is interesting, would love to learn more about his game. Started this thread a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1307648

and there were some good responses that might be worth a read.

[Owly]

Jim Naismith has been working hard posting stuff about Moses Malone for us all but has gotten no traction.[b] I think that someone should reward his dedication to this great[/b]. I'm not a real fan of his so I don't think that I'm the guy to do it, but we should give a bit more credence to his peak- while he was generally not known as a good defender, what with not getting back in time on defense since he was crashing the offensive glass like no on in history, in 83 his notably stepped up there an had a career year in blocks and improved the team's DRTg from 103.9 to 100.9.

For everyone else, this is likely to come down to West and Mailman, if the last thread is anything to go by, but for me it's more between West and Robinson.

I'd give more consideration to guys like Chuck and Durant, but I'm sure that they have zero shot at this spot. Wade's peak and playoff runs should get him some consideration soon too, he was quite remarkable for a few healthy seasons.

Bluntly, I don't. I part because I think his use of raw stats without acknowledgment of pace influence (and leaving out ts% norms which would favour other candidates) suggests a fine dedication to Moses but is of limited persuasive value for telling the full picture. Likewise he showed us two dominant years in PoTY, but neglected that Erving, Karl Malone, Pettit and West all more PotY shares (and didn't note that in those years the legendary players playing in that period were just entering their prime years (Bird), pre-prime (Magic) or post prime (Jabbar) and the best player who had what might be considered a players peak years (27-29) was George Gervin (for one year).

Moses was a fine player but West and Karl Malone have had strong backing in previous threads and look like the front runners here. Robinson and Nowitzki (and perhaps Barkley, Pettit, Mikan ...) might be in play too. Moses is a legitimate part of the discussion here but with a number of good candidates, he might still have to wait a little while. Regarding Drtg impact in Philly, a lot of that movement is the league norm, their relative Drtg did improve, but more marginally, from -3 to -3.8.

Anyway I tentatively cast my vote for Robinson. Epic peak, underrated in his first couple of years with Duncan (and in terms of the culture he helped establish for/with Duncan), strong +/- type numbers from what I've seen through to the end of his career, evidence of huge impact on his arrival and from his '92 injury. I think his offensive playoff falloff might be a little overstated and personally I tend to justify that in terms of teams being able to key in on first options if there isn't a decent secondary shot creator, but understand that isn't methodologically rigorous or proven or anything. I'm not presently persuaded he fell off on D in the playoffs (or versus good teams) though that's a discussion that probably should be revisited. Anyway it's Robinson for now.

[Doctor MJ]

First thing I'll say is this:

West had a pretty huge lead before the runoff. If memory serves he had around double everyone else, and Erving just barely squeaked past Malone by a vote to get in the runoff.

If that's the case I believe that's the most epic come back we've seen in our runoffs, which raises the question of whether it was people having their mind changes for Erving, or whether there's a strong contingent who doesn't really believe in West.

My request would be for people who fit in to one of those categories to share that with us. The former because it's cool and worth hearing about, the latter because it's relevant to this thread.

Do you realize from 1972-1974 west's win shares per 48 was higher than doctor j, not even adjusting for league?




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Not sure why you think that's a response to me. You realize I voted for West, right?

[Baller2014]

Again with this inaccurate "West was more efficient" assertion. To begin with, there's no doubt Karl Malone was more efficient (and a better scorer) in the regular season. So there's that. But even playoffs, comparing Malone's physical, statistical and actual 6 year prime against West's best 5-6 years, Malone both scores more per 100 and on better TS%. So he isn't less efficient at all! It's like repeating this over and over isn't penetrating. Malone scored more at better efficiency! (even in the playoffs) The only aspect of scoring West wins at is when we compare either old man Malone at age 34-35 (in just the playoffs) to prime West, or if we compare Malone's whole (much longer) playoff career to West's playoff career... and then West wins on TS% (but not pp100)... except obviously that's unfair to Malone, because while he was at an awesome level his whole career, he wasn't at the same level every single year. His long career hurts his stats. His best stretch though comes out as better than West's best stretch.

And then there's longevity, D and regular season, where Karl Malone clubs Jerry West mercilessly. How these things are all being ignored, just to focus on career playoff TS%, is lost on me.

[colts18]

Again with this inaccurate "West was more efficient" assertion. To begin with, there's no doubt Karl Malone was more efficient (and a better scorer) in the regular season. So there's that. But even playoffs, comparing Malone's physical, statistical and actual 6 year prime against West's best 5-6 years, Malone both scores more per 100 and on better TS%. So he isn't less efficient at all! It's like repeating this over and over isn't penetrating. Malone scored more at better efficiency! (even in the playoffs) The only aspect of scoring West wins at is when we compare either old man Malone at age 34-35 (in just the playoffs) to prime West, or if we compare Malone's whole (much longer) playoff career to West's playoff career... and then West wins on TS% (but not pp100)... except obviously that's unfair to Malone, because while he was at an awesome level his whole career, he wasn't at the same level every single year. His long career hurts his stats. His best stretch though comes out as better than West's best stretch.

And then there's longevity, D and regular season, where Karl Malone clubs Jerry West mercilessly. How these things are all being ignored, just to focus on career playoff TS%, is lost on me.

West was much more efficient than Malone. During West's career, the average TS% hovered around 46-50 TS% while during Malone's career it hovered from 52-54 TS%.

[Baller2014]

It is ridiculous to compare efficiency relative to how good players around you were. I'm not going to punish Malone for being in an era where guys had good midrange games, anymore than I'm going to reward West for being in a weak era where shooting was bad.

Just to give an example of where this sort of thinking takes us, Jack Twyman put up 31-9-3.5 in 1960. He did it on a FG% of 422, which for the time was above average. Supposedly we should prop Twyman his stats on face value and assume his FG% is at least as impressive as modern scorers like Malone because it was above average for his era. For anyone wondering, or about to complain his team was bad, Twyman put up 25-9-3 the next year on an inhuman (for the time) 488. FG% and the team was solid-ish. I doubt anyone is going to be discussing Jack Twyman in the top 100, or raving about his efficiency.

[Reservoirdawgs]

It is ridiculous to compare efficiency relative to how good players around you were..

I don't understand...then how in the world are we supposed to compare players? As Colts, MJ, and Penbeast have shown, West is an extremely efficient player, particularly when compared to his peers. Malone is also an efficient player, just not as much when compared to his peers.

[Baller2014]

I don't understand...then how in the world are we supposed to compare players? As Colts, MJ, and Penbeast have shown, West is an extremely efficient player, particularly when compared to his peers. Malone is also an efficient player, just not as much when compared to his peers.

How about comparing their actual efficiency? If anything, we should be taking points off West for playing in a weak era, not giving him extra points because his lesser TS% was high relative to the worse players he played with.

[Owly]

It is ridiculous to compare efficiency relative to how good players around you were. I'm not going to punish Malone for being in an era where guys had good midrange games, anymore than I'm going to reward West for being in a weak era where shooting was bad.

Really? I think you should compare numbers within the context of their era because otherwise you end up saying peak Jerry Lucas would be 20 rpg player today (incidentally, Jerry Lucas implied that he believed this, saying something to the effect of "People say there were more missed shots back then, but really we just wanted it more", I can't fathom how he persuaded himself that's true knowing he's heard, and surely knows, that there were many more rebounds available).

But if you don't want to adjust efficiency numbers people will respect your right to your opinion and to vote. But if you want to persuade others, you might wish to inform why your absolute efficiency standard is better than one that relates to a players value in the era in which they played. If that's "Everyone's taking era strength into acount (cf Mikan, George), I believe West played in a weak era because ..." lay that argument out (ideally in a way which explains why other stats should be adjusted to league norms, as I think you've argued they should) rather than telling what I'm guessing is quite a substantial block of voters that (part of) their criteria is ridiculous.

[ronnymac2]

In general, Moses Malone gets underrated on the PC board in my opinion. Look, defensively, he was no stalwart. Whether you are enamored by Moses or not, you pretty much know Moses isn't knocking on the door of the top-20 GOAT defensive players.

However...to those who aren't enamored by Moses, what is it about his offense that worries you? Why does it worry you?

I would guess there are 2 main obstacles that keep you from embracing his style of offense:

1. Ast/TOV ratio.
2. One of the main components of his scoring skillset is offensive rebounding, where it's generally perceived that he missed shots on purpose to get better position on the offensive glass for putbacks. Offensive rebounding also puts you at risk of being beaten in transition, and while this is covered already in one's assessment of Malone's defense, it might understandably bring negative feelings towards his offensive game because then his gaudy boxscore numbers feel like they were accumulated based on a biased or cheating style of play that the player adopts.

His ast/tov ratio is poor. He isn't a great passer. This is a major difference between he and Shaq, KAJ, Wilt, etc. No getting around that.

I'll address #2 first with a post from the thread fpliii linked above:

He combined a power game with a shockingly impressive second, third, and fourth jump. Barkley-like — it was apt they played together.

Moses is basically a smaller-yet-no-less-aggressive version of Shaquille O'Neal with a Barkley-esque ability to jump up again after landing the first time. Good touch around the basket, could knock down the occasional jump shot. Good free throw shooter.

With his ability to pin down players inside with his strength for quick-hitting baskets and his GOAT offensive rebounding, he's in contention for GOAT off-ball player.

Moses had other extremely effective scoring skills in the toolbox. He basically was Shaq with above average free throw shooting when it came to scoring. You can build around his scoring skillset, but you don't need to. He can go do his 24/15 thing no matter what because he truly doesn't even need possession of the ball to be effective. Like, the best way to deliver the ball to Moses Malone is also an effective scoring method more than 40% of the time in most eras (A shot!). A post-entry pass by itself basically has no chance of going into the hoop. This is a real advantage Moses has over...anybody.

But as far as penalizing him for his style of offense...I'd go the other way and say his style of offense deflated one boxscore stat of his: field goal percentage. If he purposely misses shots to get better position to score, that hurts his FG% and overall his efficiency, sometimes drastically. Let's say this happens once per game. That's basically the difference between Michael Jordan's FG% and Kobe Bryant's FG%. How much better would prime Moses look if his field goal percentage was 4 points higher?

Now a counter to that is "missing shots is risky, there's no guarantee you'll get the rebound." But then you look at his recorded numbers (historic offensive rebound average, historic offensive rebound rate) and you look at his skillset. There's never been anybody with that bulk and height that possessed his second, third, and fourth jump. Ever. He truly is one of a kind in this regard. Consider it might make sense for him to strategize this way.

I'd also invite you to consider Moses Malone in an era where teams diligently prepare and strategize to disrupt the opponent's transition offense at the expense of their own offensive rebounding. To me, this makes having one dominant offensive rebounder on the court more valuable than ever, because you can have your other 4 players preparing to back-pedal and still have a good chance at grabbing the Oboard for a reset.

This shift in gameplanning has not caused coaches to ignore an individual's offensive rebounding prowess when they are elite, and clearly it would be wasteful to do so. Guys like DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler were/are incredibly effective offensive players in part because of their offensive rebounding, and they have done their work on elite teams with strong offenses. And while their teams weren't great offensive rebounding teams (in part because of strategy), those individuals were constant threats, putting pressure on defenses to be aware on the glass, because if they weren't, they'd be giving an elite offense a second shot attempt on a possession.

To me, having an elite offensive rebounder, let alone the GOAT offensive rebounder, could allow you to organize a strong transition defense without being the 2013 Miami Heat on the offensive glass.

[Baller2014]

It is ridiculous to compare efficiency relative to how good players around you were. I'm not going to punish Malone for being in an era where guys had good midrange games, anymore than I'm going to reward West for being in a weak era where shooting was bad.

Really? I think you should compare numbers within the context of their era because otherwise you end up saying peak Jerry Lucas would be 20 rpg player today

That's called pace adjustment. That's sensible and reasonable. But giving West bonus points on efficiency because players were less good in his weak era, while giving Karl Malone less credit for his efficiency (because players in his era had great midrange games) is completely unreasonable. Sure, Karl Malone did less to distance himself from his peers... guess what, that's because his peers were better players.