RealGM Top 100 List #15

[ThaRegul8r]

Could someone with the time and inclination do a comparison between (Karl) Malone and Dirk when they have the chance?

[D Nice]

Could someone with the time and inclination do a comparison between (Karl) Malone and Dirk when they have the chance?

I'll post one in between now and Thursday. I've got free time in spades this week, and I think it's a pretty important comparison for reasons I casually touched on in the "where do you rank Kobe" thread. Briefly, I think it ultimately boils down to Karl may very well give you a few more seasons of fielding a "quality team" but (to me) it doesn't off-set the fact that Dirk has demonstrated he's better equipped to actually get your team over the hump (simplistically, in NBA terms, 2nd place = 1st loser). When you simply look at what they accomplish given roster/competition, Dirk's degree of superiority seems to actually baloon.

[DannyNoonan1221]

My vote again is for Moses Malone

Right now I will just compare him to Karl Malone.

For all of Karl's Longevity talk and Moses' relatively short career for the guys on this list, KM appeared in 14 all-star games and MM in 12. While a simplistic way to look at it, it still shows to me that maybe the gap might not be what one would perceive from reading these threads.

5 year playoff Peak per100
89-93 KM- 34.3/10.8(3.7)/3.1 on .567 TS%
79-83 MM- 31.0/18.1(7.5)/1.9 on .551 TS%

Career per100
KM- 34.4/13.9(3.3)/4.9 on .577 TS%
MM- 30.4/18.3(7.6)/1.9 on .569 TS%

Playoffs- Not sure KM's gap in scoring/assists/TS% matches MM's rebounding superiority, especially when you consider how much is coming form the offensive end.

Career- MM shows a lot more consistency… but whether that's good or bad is up to each individual voter. For me it shows that no matter the quality or intensity of the defense, MM was going to get his. For KM, I can't decide whether its because he falters under pressure, excels when games aren't as intense or just a result of defenses focusing in on him.

MM does have what KM doesn't that seems to play a lot into his legacy- a championship. And it wasn't as if MM joined a super team and became a 3rd option- he was finals MVP and is generally considered the playoff MVP that season. He out rebounded Kareem 72-30 (27-5) in that 4 game series, outscored him 103-94 and played 39.25 mpg. That's the guy who was ranked 2nd on this list. Not that one series defines a career but it certainly helps support it.

While Karl has the advantage defensively, I do not think MM's defense is as poor as people make it seem. From what I've been reading his man-to-man was solid (goes right along with his physical offensive nature) but his team defense is what brings him down. I would still like to see a little more about MM's defense.

But at this point, as I have stated before with my bias to offensive rebounds that no one else seems to really share, I have to vote Moses Malone.

[90sAllDecade]

Alright, I'll be researching Moses Malone and also will be comparing him to Karl when I have time, who I think he might have a good case against. I'll chime in on other discussion here and there.

Here's a short excerpt of a documentary about him for a baseline:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXZZDc27c28[/youtube]

[magicmerl]

I might lean towards West because he was much more efficient than Karl Malone.

Well, he wasn't more efficient in the regular season. And postseason he is only 1.5 percentage points better.

For me this is going to come down to Jerry West vs Karl Malone. I was a bit down on Jerry because he's before my time so I didn't know that much about him. From watching game footage of him in the last couple of days, I think that his defense is being overrated. He had a formidible wingspan, which would be great during the regular season when matched up against weaker competition. But I think it would have been much less useful in the playoffs when he would be facing better opponents, and more importantly, opponents who know how long he was. The 82 game season doesn't let you lock down on a single opponent like you can do in the playoffs.

That said, I've gone back and produced per100 stats for West based on team pace.

Code: Select all

Career Stats per100Poss
Regular Season
     TRB  AST STL BLK TOV PF  PTS  TS%  ORtg DRtg OWS   DWS  WS    WS/48
West  6.0 7.0 NA  NA  NA  2.7 28.3 .550 NA   NA   124.6 37.9 162.6 .213
Karl 13.9 4.9 1.9 1.1 4.2 4.3 34.4 .577 113  101  142.2 92.4 234.6 .205

Playoffs
     TRB  AST STL BLK TOV PF  PTS  TS%  ORtg DRtg OWS   DWS  WS    WS/48
West  5.5 6.3 NA  NA  NA  2.9 29.0 .541 NA   NA   21.3  5.4  26.7  .203
Karl 14.1 4.2 1.8 0.9 3.8 4.5 32.6 .526 106  103  11.3  11.6 23.0  .140


Here Karl has a massive lead in terms of Win Shares, a testament to his tremendous longevity. West had 11 seasons where he played 60 games or more, Karl had 18. And that's understating things for Karl, since the most games he missed in a season in Utah was 2. If we were fishing specifically for metrics that favour Karl, we could do # seasons with no more than 2 games missed, and then it's 18-0 in favour of Karl.

Karl is a more efficient scorer in the regular season, while West drops off far less in the postseason. I'm inclined to give West the nod here as the better scorer, despite usually preferring the larger sample size.

In terms of primes, both player's careers look a little like a Bactrian Camel (two humps), with West having a three year arac from 65-67, followed by another lesser stint from 70-72. Karl has two stints that are approximately as good as Larry Bird's prime in terms of Win Shares, from 89-93 and then 96-00. That's an incredible level of sustained dominance for Karl.

To Karl's detriment, his WS/48 craters in the playoffs, while West's barely suffers. Karl is still above average, but does not belong in the elite company on this ranking based on his playoff WS/48.

[D Nice]

My vote again is for Moses Malone

Right now I will just compare him to Karl Malone.

For all of Karl's Longevity talk and Moses' relatively short career for the guys on this list, KM appeared in 14 all-star games and MM in 12. While a simplistic way to look at it, it still shows to me that maybe the gap might not be what one would perceive from reading these threads.

5 year playoff Peak per100
89-93 KM- 34.3/10.8(3.7)/3.1 on .567 TS%
79-83 MM- 31.0/18.1(7.5)/1.9 on .551 TS%

Career per100
KM- 34.4/13.9(3.3)/4.9 on .577 TS%
MM- 30.4/18.3(7.6)/1.9 on .569 TS%

Playoffs- Not sure KM's gap in scoring/assists/TS% matches MM's rebounding superiority, especially when you consider how much is coming form the offensive end.

Career- MM shows a lot more consistency… but whether that's good or bad is up to each individual voter. For me it shows that no matter the quality or intensity of the defense, MM was going to get his. For KM, I can't decide whether its because he falters under pressure, excels when games aren't as intense or just a result of defenses focusing in on him.

MM does have what KM doesn't that seems to play a lot into his legacy- a championship. And it wasn't as if MM joined a super team and became a 3rd option- he was finals MVP and is generally considered the playoff MVP that season. He out rebounded Kareem 72-30 (27-5) in that 4 game series, outscored him 103-94 and played 39.25 mpg. That's the guy who was ranked 2nd on this list. Not that one series defines a career but it certainly helps support it.

While Karl has the advantage defensively, I do not think MM's defense is as poor as people make it seem. From what I've been reading his man-to-man was solid (goes right along with his physical offensive nature) but his team defense is what brings him down. I would still like to see a little more about MM's defense.

But at this point, as I have stated before with my bias to offensive rebounds that no one else seems to really share, I have to vote Moses Malone.

Careful with Moses's offensive rebounding. It's a valuable skill in that you are creating more possessions for your team, but nobody in history rivals Moses' propensity for playing volleyball with himself and the backboard. What this does is create a statistical trade-off where he is diminishing his TS% in favor of more OReb's, essentially understating his offensive efficacy a bit in exchange for seemingly GOAT offensive rebounding. The problem ends up being people don't really knock him that much for his self-inflicted TS% drop but they weigh his offensive rebounding the same as, say, a Ben Wallace, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

TLDR: He's a more efficient scorer than he seems and a worse offensive rebounder than he seems, but the #s skew his offensive-rebounding impact up to a greater degree than the extra misses skew his offensiv efficacy downward.

[90sAllDecade]

Karl Malone's documentary (I couldn't find Moses' full length one earlier, if some one has it please post it)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzR-23AQZa0[/youtube]

[DQuinn1575]

[Careful with Moses's offensive rebounding. It's a valuable skill in that you are creating more possessions for your team, but nobody in history rivals Moses' propensity for playing volleyball with himself and the backboard. What this does is create a statistical trade-off where he is diminishing his TS% in favor of more OReb's, essentially understating his offensive efficacy a bit in exchange for seemingly GOAT offensive rebounding. The problem ends up being people don't really knock him that much for his self-inflicted TS% drop but they weigh his offensive rebounding the same as, say, a Ben Wallace, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

TLDR: He's a more efficient scorer than he seems and a worse offensive rebounder than he seems, but the #s skew his offensive-rebounding impact up to a greater degree than the extra misses skew his offensiv efficacy downward.

Okay, let's say Moses was no better on the off boards than Ben Wallace, and all the extra off boards he got were inflated and he could have made those shots.

http://bkref.com/tiny/d4TJQ

So, if Moses gets only 12.3% off boards instead of 16.3% he gets 1,811 less offensive rebounds and 1,811 less missed shots. Doing the math, he then gets a TS% of 61.2% - so if you minimize his offensive rebounding to a mere Wallace level he shoots 61.2% TS for his career, scoring over 20 ppg.

Those are Barkley level numbers http://bkref.com/tiny/JkERw

[D Nice]

[Careful with Moses's offensive rebounding. It's a valuable skill in that you are creating more possessions for your team, but nobody in history rivals Moses' propensity for playing volleyball with himself and the backboard. What this does is create a statistical trade-off where he is diminishing his TS% in favor of more OReb's, essentially understating his offensive efficacy a bit in exchange for seemingly GOAT offensive rebounding. The problem ends up being people don't really knock him that much for his self-inflicted TS% drop but they weigh his offensive rebounding the same as, say, a Ben Wallace, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

TLDR: He's a more efficient scorer than he seems and a worse offensive rebounder than he seems, but the #s skew his offensive-rebounding impact up to a greater degree than the extra misses skew his offensiv efficacy downward.

Okay, let's say Moses was no better on the off boards than Ben Wallace, and all the extra off boards he got were inflated and he could have made those shots.

http://bkref.com/tiny/d4TJQ

So, if Moses gets only 12.3% off boards instead of 16.3% he gets 1,811 less offensive rebounds and 1,811 less missed shots. Doing the math, he then gets a TS% of 61.2% - so if you minimize his offensive rebounding to a mere Wallace level he shoots 61.2% TS for his career, scoring over 20 ppg.

Those are Barkley level numbers http://bkref.com/tiny/JkERw

Why would you take my post, insinuate a bunch of extremes that overshoot what I actually stated just so you could create a straw man?

I simply stated that you need to approach pro-Moses arguments that hinge on his offensive rebounding with caution because he's a very unique case. Obviously there is no way every miss he grabbed he could have made, and often times he wasn't trying to miss, rather taking shots he knew may be a lower percentage because of his Shaq-like ability to follow his own miss and finish the play. He's a paint architect, I've never really seen anything like it. And FTR, I'd say a TS% closer to 60 is probably more reflective of his scoring efficiency than the 55-56% he ended up recording, so even with your zealotry your conclusion probably isn't too far off base.

The issue comes with the fact that people don't really denigrate him for his non-60TS% as much as they prop him up for his artificially enhanced offensive rebounding numbers. They need to be balanced evenly, that's ALL I was saying.

And Moses prime does get underrated. Not many guys in the top 50 have embarrassed that many guys ranked higher than him or won MVPs in such stacked fields, and I definitely think from a career perspective he is > D-Rob (I have Robinson 20th and Moses 19th) so by all means extol his virtues, just do it within context of what actually happened please, not what you printed out on your spreadsheet.

[DQuinn1575]

Bluntly, I don't. I part because I think his use of raw stats without acknowledgment of pace influence (and leaving out ts% norms which would favour other candidates) suggests a fine dedication to Moses but is of limited persuasive value for telling the full picture. Likewise he showed us two dominant years in PoTY, but neglected that Erving, Karl Malone, Pettit and West all more PotY shares (and didn't note that in those years the legendary players playing in that period were just entering their prime years (Bird), pre-prime (Magic) or post prime (Jabbar) and the best player who had what might be considered a players peak years (27-29) was George Gervin (for one year).

Moses was MVP in 79,82,83.

First, you don't chose your competition or your peers.

BIRD - graduated high school same year as Moses- 1974. Was MVP 84,85,86 - came to league pretty much in prime.

JABBAR- was league MVP in 77 and 80. To be compared to Jabbar 79-81 is pretty darned good.

DOCTOR J- NBA MVP in 81; hard to say he wasn't prime in this time.

MAGIC - In his 4th year as pro in 83.


Top player in the league 1979-1983 -

Vote for Moses

[DQuinn1575]

Why would you take my post, insinuate a bunch of extremes that overshoot what I actually stated just so you could create a straw man?

I simply stated that you need to approach pro-Moses arguments that hinge on his offensive rebounding with caution because he's a very unique case. Obviously there is no way every miss he grabbed he could have made, and often times he wasn't trying to miss, rather taking shots he knew may be a lower percentage because of his Shaq-like ability to follow his own miss and finish the play. He's a paint architect, I've never really seen anything like it. And FTR, I'd say a TS% closer to 60 is probably more reflective of his scoring efficiency than the 55-56% he ended up recording, so even with your zealotry your conclusion probably isn't too far off base.

The issue comes with the fact that people don't really denigrate him for his non-60TS% as much as they prop him up for his artificially enhanced offensive rebounding numbers. They need to be balanced evenly, that's ALL I was saying.

And Moses prime does get underrated. Not many guys in the top 50 have embarrassed that many guys ranked higher than him or won MVPs in such stacked fields, and I definitely think from a career perspective he is > D-Rob (I have Robinson 20th and Moses 19th) so by all means extol his virtues, just do it within context of what actually happened please, not what you printed out on your spreadsheet.

you stated

they weigh his offensive rebounding the same as, say, a Ben Wallace, when it couldn't be further from the truth

Even though Moses has a 30% higher offensive rebounding % than Ben Wallace you say that Wallace's should have more weight - and yet you say I take things to extremes.

Then I show how Moses would be if he did rebound as well as Ben -and it shows

with your conclusion probably isn't too far off base.

The balance I show is 12.3% off reb and 61% TS

And in the end you agree with my conclusion -

And I disagree with Ben Wallace having more impact on the boards than Moses.

[D Nice]

Why would you take my post, insinuate a bunch of extremes that overshoot what I actually stated just so you could create a straw man?

I simply stated that you need to approach pro-Moses arguments that hinge on his offensive rebounding with caution because he's a very unique case. Obviously there is no way every miss he grabbed he could have made, and often times he wasn't trying to miss, rather taking shots he knew may be a lower percentage because of his Shaq-like ability to follow his own miss and finish the play. He's a paint architect, I've never really seen anything like it. And FTR, I'd say a TS% closer to 60 is probably more reflective of his scoring efficiency than the 55-56% he ended up recording, so even with your zealotry your conclusion probably isn't too far off base.

The issue comes with the fact that people don't really denigrate him for his non-60TS% as much as they prop him up for his artificially enhanced offensive rebounding numbers. They need to be balanced evenly, that's ALL I was saying.

And Moses prime does get underrated. Not many guys in the top 50 have embarrassed that many guys ranked higher than him or won MVPs in such stacked fields, and I definitely think from a career perspective he is > D-Rob (I have Robinson 20th and Moses 19th) so by all means extol his virtues, just do it within context of what actually happened please, not what you printed out on your spreadsheet.

you stated

they weigh his offensive rebounding the same as, say, a Ben Wallace, when it couldn't be further from the truth

Even though Moses has a 30% higher offensive rebounding % than Ben Wallace you say that Wallace's should have more weight - and yet you say I take things to extremes.

That was an extremely poor choice of words on my part, my bad. I wasn't comparing them as individuals, I was implying that people assign a similar portion of Moses's non-scoring offensive value to his offensive rebounding as they do a guy like Big Ben, when I don't feel that's the case. I apologize.

As an aside though you can't compare their OREB% when one guy attempts 5 shots a game and one guy attempts 20+, and the former is primarily pulling down offensive rebounds that result in possession resets while the latter is generating a large chunk of his OREBs from his own misses (even if through strategic design).

Some data on the % of Moses's offensive rebounds that came from his own misses would be invaluable here, but gathering such data would require painstaking film analysis. I'm actually watching the '83 Sixers title run now, so I'll try and keep some kind of running track in my head as some sort of baseline.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #15 - The Logo



(couldn’t help it!)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tje01.html

- 14 year career
- 12x all NBA (10 1st, 2 2nd)
- 5x all defensive (4 1st, 1 2nd) *Award was first introduced in 69 — west’s 9th season
- 1x finals MVP
- 1x NBA champion
- retired with most points in NBA history as a guard
- 6th all time in career PPG

West's pace adjusted stats from 61-69:

25.7 PPG, 4.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 2.3 SPG, .6 BPG, 3 TOPG, 53.2% eFG, 81% FT, .213 WS/48

http://bit.ly/1kS02mp

http://doubledribble.wordpress.com/2012 ... ted-stats/

His adjusted stats are still quite impressive, portraying him as a versatile and efficient volume scorer at the guard position. The thing that sticks out to me about west is his marked consistency in production throughout his career, and he parallels that in his style of play.

In 6 of west’s first 9 trips to the playoffs, he made it to the finals, losing to the celtics. Those celtics teams were stacked with talent, and west didn’t have any foreseeable meltdowns when it mattered most. He just couldn’t get over the hump against a team led by russell who won 11 championships in 13 years. When he won his finals MVP in 69 in a losing effort (first year the award was given), it was in heartbreaking fashion. I don’t typically like to use wikipedia as an original source, but game 7 is explained well here:

Then with just over 5 minutes remaining and the Lakers trailing 103-96, Chamberlain landed awkwardly when grabbing a rebound and came to the bench with an injured knee. But behind backup center Mel Counts, the Lakers cut the lead to 103–102 with two minutes left. Chamberlain then informed Van Breda Kolff that he was ready to return, but the coach infamously told the superstar center "we're doing fine without you" and Chamberlain never got back in the game.

Boston still had that 103-102 lead with 1:33 left in the game when reserve guard Keith Erickson knocked the ball away from John Havlicek. The ball went right to Don Nelson, who put up a desperation 18 foot shot from the free throw line to beat the 24 second clock; the ball hit the back rim, bounced high in the air and fell through the hoop to give Boston a 105-102 lead. The Lakers committed a few costly turnovers in the last moments and trailed 108-104 before making a meaningless last second shot that made the final score 108-106.

After Game 7 ended, the Celtic players happily sprinted off the floor to a locker-room celebration, but Bill Russell sought out the disconsolate Jerry West, embracing him and offering his admiration. West averaged 38 points during the series and had a triple double in Game 7 (42 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_NBA_Finals#Game_7

4th quarter of 69 finals game 7

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw[/youtube]

His overall series average was ~38 PPG, 5 RPG, and 7.4 APG on 49% from the field and 84% from the line. West would again lose in 7 games the following season to arguably one of the most complete “teams” in NBA history in the 70 knicks. He would finally get over the hump in 72 winning the championship with the support of wilt and goodrich. He didn’t shoot that well, but frazier is one of the best perimeter defenders of all time, and knew how to guard west as well as anyone.

For those who care about the whole “killer instinct” thing, west certainly had it:

West says that he fueled himself with anger: "Just hoping someone on the other team would say something, anything, even something small and stupid, to (tick) you off. You'd want to embarrass that person. You'd turn from a player who was competing to a person who was a monster. That anger was like having mental steroids. Driven to the point of being crazy. I'm not sure I loved the game. I loved the competition. I'd think, I've got to get it out, but how can I take this out on someone who's an equal, someone of equal size, so it's fair?”

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/201 ... theus.html

During west’s career, there wasn’t as much concern with whether you played PG or SG. As Frazier always says, if you were a star during that era, you were expected to be able to fill the need of both positions (of course players swayed closer to PG or SG based on their strengths). West was the prototypical “guard”, and overall one of the most complete players in NBA history. We all have our favorite players to watch, but west is just one of those guys i’ve always respected to the utmost degree. To me, he’s a clear cut top 15 player of all time.

Other notable footage:

63 Finals game 6 vs. BOS — 32 PTS, 7 REB, 9 AST, 13-24 FG, 6-10 FT

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68CAxZTImGw[/youtube]

[penbeast0]

Can anyone here do a good analysis of Moses v. Karl Malone from the DEFENSIVE side? Their offense can be reasonably estimated from boxscore numbers but while both were strong physical man defenders with more limited shotblocking/defensive anchor roles, who was superior at that end and why?

[Clyde Frazier]

For some reason this wouldn't embed in the last post. I think it really gives you a good feel for west's game:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEzwR1a8KuA[/youtube]

[ShaqAttack3234]

I would have voted for West in the runoff, but wasn't able to log on for most of the runoff so I didn't get a chance. I'm not complaining at all, I'm just explaining why at least I didn't wind up voting for West in the runoff, and it had nothing to do with a lack of belief in West.

Anyway, I'll vote for West. I did explain my position a lot in the last thread, but if it's essential for me to do it again, then let me know, and I will.

[Jim Naismith]

Likewise he showed us two dominant years in PoTY, but neglected that Erving, Karl Malone, Pettit and West all more PotY shares

My post was about dominant single seasons, not cumulative shares over a career.

... (and didn't note that in those years the legendary players playing in that period were just entering their prime years (Bird), pre-prime (Magic) or post prime (Jabbar) and the best player who had what might be considered a players peak years (27-29) was George Gervin (for one year).

Moses has no control over his rivals' timetables. Furthermore, this weak-era criticism can similarly be made against many who have been already voted in, including these winners of both the MVP and FMVP in the same year:

Hakeem Olajuwon 1994
Criticism: Jordan left the NBA to play baseball, so this peak doesn't really count.

Michael Jordan 1991, 1992
Criticism: True greats, Bird and Magic were exiting primes before retiring early. Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson were pretenders, not contenders.

Shaquille O'Neal 2000
Criticism: Positional rivals Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Sabonis declining. Dominated the likes of Rik Smits.

LeBron James 2012, 2013
Criticism: Thin competition with Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Duncan declining and Durant just entering prime.

[DQuinn1575]

Can anyone here do a good analysis of Moses v. Karl Malone from the DEFENSIVE side? Their offense can be reasonably estimated from boxscore numbers but while both were strong physical man defenders with more limited shotblocking/defensive anchor roles, who was superior at that end and why?

Realistically I think Karl -2 1st team 1 2nd team, Moses 1 and 1, and West 4 and 1 are fairly even on defense. Moses was a center, which is much more important on defense. He suffers because he wasn't a great shot blocker, so he's no David Robinson.

Moses came into the league so heralded as the 1st guy out of high school - he was held to a higher standard than most everyone else - he got compared against Jabbar and Walton, and came up short.

Karl got better as time went on, and was always fairly solid. Not a super defender, but definitely better than most.

West got lots of steals -didn't dominate the game defensively, but was pretty solid.

All are definitely a step or two above Dirk, but a decent step below David Robinson.

[trex_8063]

Again with this inaccurate "West was more efficient" assertion. To begin with, there's no doubt Karl Malone was more efficient (and a better scorer) in the regular season. So there's that. But even playoffs, comparing Malone's physical, statistical and actual 6 year prime against West's best 5-6 years, Malone both scores more per 100 and on better TS%. So he isn't less efficient at all! It's like repeating this over and over isn't penetrating. Malone scored more at better efficiency! (even in the playoffs) The only aspect of scoring West wins at is when we compare either old man Malone at age 34-35 (in just the playoffs) to prime West, or if we compare Malone's whole (much longer) playoff career to West's playoff career... and then West wins on TS% (but not pp100)... except obviously that's unfair to Malone, because while he was at an awesome level his whole career, he wasn't at the same level every single year. His long career hurts his stats. His best stretch though comes out as better than West's best stretch.

And then there's longevity, D and regular season, where Karl Malone clubs Jerry West mercilessly. How these things are all being ignored, just to focus on career playoff TS%, is lost on me.

Kettle, this is Pot: you're black.

You're voicing frustration against the masses for ignoring your points (which to a large degree they haven't), while doing exactly the same to everyone else.

colts18 replied to the shooting efficiency point noting the difference in league avg TS% (he is NOT the first to do this......you've just repeatedly disregarded it). EDIT: Oops, I see you have responded to this.....although without much credibility--->You've elected to completely disregard how things like 1) a 3-point line, 2) changes in what refs will allow when dribbling ("carries", etc) and how that effects getting to the hole, and 3) a slower pace allowing for increased focus on good shot selection (as apposed to just getting it up in a hurry) can all effect league avg TS%, and instead are chalking it all up to worse shooting. Well played, sir.

And saying the Malone's D "clubs Jerry West mercilessly" is beyond a big stretch, fwiw. This too is not a point that has been ignored; it has been (repeatedly) called out as grossly inaccurate based on available evidence. But this too you have chosen to ignore.

I'm supporting Karl Malone for this spot (have been since the #12 vote). But these kinds of tactics and arguments---the strawmen type or blatantly inaccurate type, followed by completely ignoring valid counter-points---do NOT help. It subtly undermines the credibility of everyone attempting to support K.Malone.

[Clyde Frazier]

Likewise he showed us two dominant years in PoTY, but neglected that Erving, Karl Malone, Pettit and West all more PotY shares (and didn't note that in those years the legendary players playing in that period were just entering their prime years (Bird), pre-prime (Magic) or post prime (Jabbar) and the best player who had what might be considered a players peak years (27-29) was George Gervin (for one year).

Moses has no control over his rival's timetables. Furthermore, this weak-era criticism can similarly be made against many who have been already voted in, including these winners of both the MVP and FMVP in the same year:

Hakeem Olajuwon 1994
Criticism: Jordan left the NBA to play baseball, so this peak doesn't really count.

Michael Jordan 1991, 1992
Criticism: True greats, Bird and Magic were exiting primes before retiring early. Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson were pretenders, not contenders.

Shaquille O'Neal 2000
Criticism: Positional rivals Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Sabonis declining. Dominated the likes of Rik Smits.

LeBron James 2012, 2013
Criticism: Thin competition with Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Duncan declining and Durant just entering prime.

Aside from your first sentence, which I completely agree with, you're seriously reaching with these narratives, especially the one in bold. At most, I wonder if Hakeem wins 2 titles if jordan never retired, but his ability as a basketball player doesn't change either way. Same with shaq.