RealGM Top 100 List #15

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Moses Malone

We are talking about the only player on the list currently with 3+ MVP's that has not been voted in yet. Also won a title as the man, only one of a handful of players to have won league mvp and title or league mvp, finals mvp (when it existed) and title the same year. When Moses parted the Red Sea he was 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs, 1st in Win Shares in the season and playoffs and 1st in PER in the season and playoffs and led one of the top 5 teams all time in the process.

Players who won league mvp and title the same year.

Spoiler:

Examples:

1957 Bob Cousy
1961 Bill Russell
1962 Bill Russell
1963 Bill Russell
1965 Bill Russell
1967 Wilt Chamberlain
1968 Connie Hawkins (ABA)
1970 Willis Reed
1971 Kareem
1974 Julius Erving (ABA)
1976 Julius Erving (ABA)
1980 Kareem
1983 Moses Malone
1984 Larry Bird
1986 Larry Bird
1987 Magic Johnson
1991 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
1996 Michael Jordan
1998 Michael Jordan
2000 Shaquille O'neal
2003 Tim Duncan
2012 Lebron James
2013 Lebron James

[colts18]

I noticed that Baller2014 hasn't posted in a while. In his avatar, it says he is banned. Is that true? Did the mods realize that he was Gilmorefan/AnaheimRoyale?

[john248]

My official vote is for Jerry West. He's a legit 2-way player with huge impact from what I can tell using El Gee's WOWY chart. He has an unofficial quadruple double where he shot 16/17, 12/12 FT and went 44/12/12/10blk against the Celtics.

Worthy of being called Mr. Clutch, increased his scoring and efficiency a bit in the playoffs. While I'm not convinced of his handles, he was still a great shooter and playmaker. Very efficient player who would see a bump in his efficiency with the 3PT line and FT rules. I do think his assist totals would stay about the same even though today's league is more generous due to playing in a fast paced league at the time. Defensively, he sounds legit with his All-Defensive nominations and praise by his peers including Wilt stating that he was the 3rd best shot blocker in the league. Those shot blocks may have come against opposing players using a set 1-handed shot and sneaking behind bigs. West is the prototype combo guard who had all-time great impact and also still played up to his best in the playoffs.

The Logo


6'2" barefoot with a reported 6'10" wingspan

FMVP stats: 37.9/4.7/7.4

Finals point totals:
1965 Finals West 26pts/45pts/43pts/22pts/33pts/
1966 Finals West 44pts/18pts/34pts/45pts/31pts/32pts/36pts
1968 Finals West 25pts/35pts/33pts/38pts/35pts/22pts
1969 Finals West 53pts/41pts/24pts/40pts/39pts/26pts/42 pts
1970 Finals West 33ptts/34pts/34pts/36pts/20pts/33pts/28pts

I was looking through some old newspapers, and sometimes they would list blocked shots and steals. They weren't officially tabulated by the NBA, but sometimes they would be listed.

January 17, 1968: West had 12 steals.
November 9, 1968: West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory.
December 6, 1968: West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta.
April 7, 1970: In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1.
November 11, 1970: West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle.
December 13, 1971: West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for their 22nd consecutive win.
January 18, 1972: West had six steals and hit the game-winner over Walt Frazier in the 1972 All-Star Game to win MVP.
November 10, 1972: West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.
March 25, 1973: In a 109-93 win over Seattle, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

We know that once steals were officially kept as a statistic, West had an official game of 10 steals, which set an NBA-record at the time. Yet it seems like that might have been fairly routine for West.

Bill Sharman once said, “Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA." Some of the totals listed seems to give credence to his statement.

West, however, was the real deal. He had terrific fundamentals, excellent hops, and a quick release. I've reviewed some film and talked it over with people, and have basically come to the conclusion that Jerry West jacked up about 90 to 160 shots that would be threes in every year he played at least 55 games. He had 25 foot range on his jumper, no question. He liked playing farther because because it allowed to him to pull defenders out so he could drive to the basket and draw fouls. Others slashed and started out from the perimeter; West could and did shoot from there. He probably averaged around 1.5 to 2 threes a game and knocked down somewhere in the high 30s...say 38%. So the logo's shot selection looks something like this:

30% of shots from inside (FG% of around 65%)
10% of shots from three (FG% of around 38%)
60% other jumpers (FG% of around 42%)

That projects to a FG% of around .485. From 1963 to 1973, Jerry West shot .483. So that's about right.

To adjust to today's game...First off, you get this. West's scoring average underrates his scoring. He'd pick up about a point a game if he didn't do a damn thing differently. If he shot more threes, he'd go up further. It would slightly affect his FG%, though. In a modern game, where players defend on the perimeter more often because there are more threes, West would be defended more. But because he'd have other teammates knocking down threes--which he never had--he'd get some perimeter spacing as well. He'd be able to go to the hoop more (which is a truly scary thought) and be able to dish better. His shooting might look something like this

33% of shots from inside (FG% of around 65%)
25% of shots from three (FG% of around .375)
47% other jumpers (FG% of around 40%)

...which would drop his FG% to about .473. I think that's about right...I figure a peak Jerry West today would go to the line about 10-11 times a game, and shoot around 47%...about 2% lower than he did at the time. His eFG% and TS%, however, would go way up because of the three. To put it in perspective...just use his actual numbers, and assume that 10% of his shots were threes. Jerry West would have a higher efG% or TS% than Kobe. Or Wade. Or Jordan. Again, that sounds right. West had (by far) the best jumper of all those players. He had the best range of all those players.

You can project Jerry West pretty easily. He loses about 10-13% of scoring because of pace differential...but he makes it up and then some with the three. Hand check fouls mean he'd go to the line at least as much, even with a slower pace. Assists are given on about 15% more possessions now, and he'd have better opportunities with more spacing. He'd lose rebounds because of era differential...but West's rebound rate was around 7 for his career. He was a good rebounder. Let's say Jerry West played 77 games and averaged 19.5 shots per game. (That's 8% less than he took in his 12 year peak period...threes get less contested, so he'd pick up a little of the era differential). 25% of those shots would be threes, and he'd shoot around 38%. He'd go to the line 10.5 times and make about 83% of his foul shots. Using rebound rate, he'd get about 4.9 boards a game in 40 mpg. So his total numbers would be

Code: Select all

G   FGM   FGA   FTM  FTA   3PM  3PA   A    R   PTS
77  705  1501   671  808   142  375  520  377  2223


Code: Select all

PPG   RPG  APG  FG%   FT%   3P%   EFG%  TS%
28.9  4.9  7.0  .469  .830  .379  .518  .599


For people that think that's way out of hand, consider this.

--West shoots .469. That's a poor shooting year for him. In the 12 seasons where he took over 17 shots a game, he shot better than 47% nine times...and in eight of the last nine of those seasons.
--West is only taking 375 three pointers, which is pretty average for a good three point shooter and primary scorer. If he took more, his overall FG% wouldn't go that far down (maybe to 46% if took, say, 500+ threes)--but his eFG% and TS% would skyrocket. This is a pretty conservative estimate.
--10.5 FTA may seem a little high...unless you know that 10.5 FTA in a season would be fifth in Jerry West's career. In a period would much tighter fouling rules, 10.5 FTA is, again, pretty conservative for a guy who averaged 10 FTA over a 12 year span...and has the highest FTA per game of any backcourt player in history.

So I'm going with that for a pretty average year for Jerry West. 29-5-7 with All-league level D, and a TS% of around 60%. In a good year, he would go for over 30 a game and shoot 40% from three. If he's below Reggie and Ray Ray as a distance shooter, the difference is very small.

West is an anomaly, though. Very few older players put up long distance shots with regularity...Lou Hudson did. He'd be a terrific player today...on par with, and maybe better than, Ray Allen. A couple of others. With most players,. we're playing "what if." With ABA players like Barry and (to a larger extent) Dr. J, we can tell that if they had had the three throughout their careers, they would have been better at it and had better numbers. But some people have little evidence to support any conjecture about how they'd do (Frazier, Oscar, Havlicek), and others possible/probably don't have the basketball IQ or mindset to use the three truly effectively (Maravich). West is one of the few where we can make a pretty good guess.

[john248]

I noticed that Baller2014 hasn't posted in a while. In his avatar, it says he is banned. Is that true? Did the mods realize that he was Gilmorefan/AnaheimRoyale?

wow...he racked up 2k posts in just a few months. lol that's a lot of arguing! well, if he is banned, that's too bad. seemed like the forum was willing to give him a new slate.

[ThaRegul8r]

He has an unofficial quadruple double where he shot 16/17, 12/12 FT and went 44/12/12/10blk against the Celtics.

I've seen this mentioned before several times over the years, and I'll see if I can find it, as I wish to verify it for myself.

[Jim Naismith]

Vote: Moses Malone
Players who won league mvp and title the same year.

Winners of MVP, title, and unanimous RealGM PoY in the same year

1961 Bill Russell
1965 Bill Russell
1967 Wilt Chamberlain
1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1983 Moses Malone
1984 Larry Bird
1986 Larry Bird
1991 Michael Jordan
1992 Michael Jordan
1996 Michael Jordan
2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2012 LeBron James
2013 LeBron James

[ElGee]

So obviously, as would be expected of a guy I called a top 20 player, West is helping his team win. This is good to confirm, but I wasn't in any doubt about that beforehand. On the other hand, the degree to which West is helping them isn't really jumping out at me compared to some of the guys we've been looking at when we do this sort of analysis. The combined stats over this period tell us the Lakers were a 51 pace win team in games West played, and a 38 win pace team in games West didn't play. That's 13 wins. Oscar theoretically was improving his teams 26-27 wins a season, and I can say the same for a lot of other guys (some still on the board, some not). So, long story short; West is very good, I knew that already, but this sample doesn't tell me he's better than K.Malone. Does anyone seriously think K.Malone wouldn't be worth 13 wins to his team?

Honestly, it's very strange to have to spell this out for you. I have no doubt you could figure it out for yourself:

People bring up West in this regard because it's an outlier. If you feel he's simply meeting your expectation, then that means everyone else is falling short of your expectation, because West is coming off phenomenal with a detailed look at how much his team was hurt when he was out.

Your assessment that Oscar was having 26-27 wins per season is just bizarre. I would assume you gleaned that from ElGee's own data, and ElGee's not saying anything like this. You clearly just took numbers from the biggest season values you saw from Oscar and ignored the rest, and then it would put the "26-27" range on there as a confidence interval that there was more to it than that.

Frankly I would completely understand if you said "Look, I don't get ElGee's WOWY score, I'm just going to go with the raw stuff he did.", but you weren't doing that for West. That's either an attempt at rhetorical manipulation or just complete confusion. The former won't work on this group though, and the latter should signal to you you need help.

Last thing I'll say: Looking at the raw stuff it's understandable to think Oscar looks better...but Oscar's already voted in. Oscar happens to be one of the other clear cut standouts in this regard, more so than West's actual competition here.

I think statisticians always struggle with what information to present because of how people will take it. I'm not shocked to see an exchange like this, but I still cringe because there's only so much fine print people are willing to read. For those who don't know, I've made a WOWY spreadsheet and the short of it is this:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There's something called a WOWY score -- if you want to take a single glance at a WOWY run and have it tell you how "impressive" the lift is without any other considerations, that's your metric. It basically normalizes everything in/out into a single number. (Accounts for SRS of team when out of lineup, variation among different leagues and most notably, the confidence factor of the WOWY run based on sample size.)

When I present this data this way, even though it helps me personally (and potentially others), I know there will be a telescoping effect where people are even less likely than before to look at circumstance. WOWY is easy guys. It's easier than RAPM. You just take a glance at the team, check the "backup," and if you have knowledge of the styles and roles, you've pretty much got the information you need. But people need to turn things into player rankers -- PPG, TS% and RAPM -- and I know there's a tendency for that to happen here. This is why I specifically called out team circumstances in some of the player cards I have put together.

Which takes us to this exchange. There is indeed "raw" data on the third tab, "Prime Only," of the spreadsheet. That raw data is there to help you map team circumstances in the given years only, because it is unweighted. The raw data preceding the WOWY score does NOT tell you about a player's "change" on the team. I've removed the "change" column because I think it's too misleading, and I still struggle with whether or not to even leave up the overall team results in those years. I find them historically informative -- e.g., from 2001-2004 the Kings were a 60-win team without Chris Webber! -- but there's the concern that people will try and quickly calculate the difference and use it instead of the WOWY Score, which does that for you with the correct mathematics, not to mention the other adjustments.

[Sports Realist]

My Argument goes for Dirk, who IMO, should have come even earlier, ahead of Kobe...

I just wrote this down elsewhere as I was asked why Dirk should be this high, so don't get confused when I maybe adress something that hasn't been mentioned here, but that won't hurt anyone as the main point still stands

Moses, Malone, Barkley, West and KG were just not "better players"....they are not on a different tier. There is almost nothing to back that up.

After Duncan you can place them in any order. I'd say Dirk winning the title in legendary fashion and being the best playoff performer of the group might be enough to break the tie. Because he is. He IS the best playoff Performer of the 5 and will give you the best chance at a title. I mean, all he needed was a defensive Center and he won you the title. Dirk wasn't a worse Player in 2009 or 2010, but 2011 would still create more stories with the beating of the Miami Heat.

And this defense / " one trick pony" stuff is funny...


Barkley was in no way a better Defender than Dirk.
Malone was a better defender, but not by much. He wasn't KG or Duncan...

People here STILL underrate Dirk.

11 straight 50 win seasons (been done only by Magic/Kareem, Duncan, Russell, and was broken up by the lockout year, injury year and 49 wins in 2014.)
1 of 3 teams to make it out of the West from 1999-2011
1 of 4 players to average over 25 and 10 for his career in the Playoffs (26/10)
Led the worst team to ever win 67+ games
One of the 5 best elimination game players ever
One of the 5 best game 7 players ever (Just now in 2014 lost his first to the Champions)

And all of that playing with decent but not great teams and coaches. Just complimentary casts, shooters, role players... Dirk is a player who you can do that with, and still get in the playoffs and contend. LeBron also. Guys that can go far with shooters, complimentary role players.

He's one of the most durable star players ever, and on his way to a great "prime longevity" as I call it... Just in his 15th season and he was still a top 6 Player! (LeBron/KD/Griffin/Paul/Howard... Wouldn't take anyone else over Dirk)
Playing in something like 98% of all his games.

Is it okay to rank the likes of Barkley, Malone, and KG over Dirk? Yes... But it's also okay to not. Same Tier.

Dirk's Defense is his only “weakness” on a basketball court. However even that is over-done...

From Wiki about his defense:

"Some critics have alleged Nowitzki's defense is a weakness, as he averages just over one block per game and never made an All-Defense Team. However, playing more around the perimeter takes him out of position where a typical power forward would be detracts from his overall defensive stats.
...he is ranked 8th in active players for defensive win shares, placing him higher than Kobe Bryant, who has made the All-Defensive team 11 times."


I rarely see Players go off on Dirk... dude never gets pushed around.

That whole "super extremely awful defensive liability" thing is a myth. DRAPM proves him to be a solid defender, that's what my eyes tell me too.


Dirk Nowitzki is in fact also one of the greatest Rebounders of all time.

Did you know that Dirk Nowitzki has had 3 Post-season Runs of averaging 10+ DENSIVE REBOUNDS?

Offensively Dirk plays out on the Perimeter, and thereby can't really grab many Rebounds.. This creates major spacing for his Team mates throughout the entire game, which is far more valuable than 1-2 more Rebounds, as it helps your teammates on basically every shot.

On Defense we can see his true Rebounding Greatness.
Dirk has 3 Post-season Runs of 10+ Def. Rebounds peaking out at 11.
Moses Malone has 1 at 10.5, Howard has 3 peaking out at 11, Dennis Rodman has 0, Kareem has 4.
Duncan and Garnett have 4, Barkley has 2, Karl Malone has 2.

And people actually want to say Dirk is a bad rebounder?

Dirk's first 9 Years 2001-2009 in the Playoffs: 11.0 Rebounds per Game.
Not 1 Year of under 10 Rebounds
2002-2009: 11.4
2002-2008: 11.5, 12 rounded. Peaking at 13.1.

Dirk, one of the greatest scorers and shooters of all time, great Rebounder, Team Player, clutch Player, big game Player, and does about as much besides the box score as anyone else in history. From leadership in the locker room, being a good team mate, to soaking opponents from the basket and stretching the floor for his Team.

Top 15 all time.

[Clyde Frazier]

He has an unofficial quadruple double where he shot 16/17, 12/12 FT and went 44/12/12/10blk against the Celtics.

I've seen this mentioned before several times over the years, and I'll see if I can find it, as I wish to verify it for myself.

Self proclaimed, it seems:

Jerry West claims he recorded a quadruple-double in game in which he scored 44 points, had 12 rebounds, 12 assists and 10 blocked shots.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7808392

[Sports Realist]

West is the only one really who can be argued as superior Playoff Performer than Dirk from here on out... Think about that.

Edit: Can I vote, by the way? Can that be made possible?

[ThaRegul8r]

He has an unofficial quadruple double where he shot 16/17, 12/12 FT and went 44/12/12/10blk against the Celtics.

I've seen this mentioned before several times over the years, and I'll see if I can find it, as I wish to verify it for myself.

Self proclaimed, it seems:

Jerry West claims he recorded a quadruple-double in game in which he scored 44 points, had 12 rebounds, 12 assists and 10 blocked shots.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ycn-7808392

Ah. Well, if that's where it originated from, then I'll take it with a big grain of salt until I find independent confirmation. First, I'll need to find where he had 44/12/12. Off the top of my head, the closest thing to that that comes immediately to mind is the '69 Finals G7, but I hope he isn't trying to embellish that game if that's it when it can stand perfectly fine on its own merits. But I'll see.

[90sAllDecade]

West is the only one really who can be argued as superior Playoff Performer than Dirk from here on out... Think about that.

Edit: Can I vote, by the way? Can that be made possible?

It's difficult to trust posters with such little history but I'll ask you since you seem to be a person who follows Dirk closer than others.

People have said Dirk would often take easier defensive assignments and in effect be hidden from more difficult players to guard.

I like Dirk and his playoff performance, the only thing holding me back from voting him is defense, which I feel is more impactful from the PF position than offense. He seems like a huge SF to me right now at times.

Can you present any evidence of when Dirk guarded a tough assignments in the playoffs and held his own defensively? Stats or game film?

I don't overly value RAPM because there is lineup noise. I think some of the big men would often be put in games with a more defensive lineup, like how Dallas liked to surround Dirk with defensive players. (Win shares are also team based stats)

I really want to vote Dirk but I just can't do it without defensive evidence over Malone and I feel offense at West's PG position is more impactful (who is also an excellent defensive player).

[D Nice]

^^^ He said Dirk was "not that much worse a defender than Malone." You can't take anything he says about Dirk's defense seriously. Either that, or he's hopelessly ignorant about Karl. I suppose if its the latter and not the former then maybe his takes could carry some weight but until he makes it clear that's the case I wouldn't hold my breath for anything very informative.

[ElGee]

I sincerely apologize for not being involved in the last couple of threads, life got in the way.

I haven't had the chance to read the previous threads, but I'm pretty amazed that K. Malone has dropped this far. Even if you have legitimate questions about his level of play during his prime, especially in the playoffs...he was still an excellent player and a legitimate offensive anchor that just wasn't good enough to carry an offense by himself. So basically, we're criticizing him for not being a Hakeem-level player...the guy that went at #9 on this list. At his best, I'd say guys like Kobe and Barkley and Dirk were better than Malone...but his longevity is INSANE. Not to mention, he barely missed any games when he played.

Malone is a clear choice for me over anyone left, with the exception of Dirk Nowitzki, and I can't really justify taking Dirk for being a slightly better player but is someone who hasn't lasted nearly as long.

Vote: Karl Malone

Without people posting their criteria in their sig, it's hard to know who values what (or remains consistent). The thing I've been trying to figure out with Malone -- and it's really interesting to see how far people take this -- is WHY people value longevity in the first place beyond a surface-level answer.

For me, it's simple. I think career value best maps to the concept of "goodness," in the exact same that if you asked me who the best player in a basketball game was, I wouldn't say "the guy who had the best quarter," I would look to see who imparted the most goodness over the course of the entire game (a function of action_quality * number_of_actions). Similarly, as a fan, journalist or (I imagine) owner or player do I think basketball goodness is limited to a set number of seasons, but an "overall" time period we typically call a career.

But obviously Malone is a great extreme example of this, for he doesn't have the peak to compete with some of the all-timers but makes up for it in volume (in years). So, for people who either

(a) believe in diminishing returns in "longevity' or
(b) value only "prime"

why do you not care about the overall picture? In the longevity thread this week, one poster said they care about a player being "good enough to be the best player on a title team." Again -- to any criteria like this -- why? Why would seasons like Ray Allen's Boston years not matter to you?

I don't think there's a right/wrong criteria, I just see giant holes in people's own alleged criteria that I don't understand, so I'm looking for clarity on how people reconcile them.

[Sports Realist]

West is the only one really who can be argued as superior Playoff Performer than Dirk from here on out... Think about that.

Edit: Can I vote, by the way? Can that be made possible?

It's difficult to trust posters with such little history but I'll ask you since you seem to be a person who follows Dirk closer than others.

People have said Dirk would often take easier defensive assignments and in effect be hidden from more difficult players to guard.

I like Dirk and his playoff performance, the only thing holding me back from voting him is defense, which I feel is more impactful from the PF position than offense. He seems like a huge SF to me right now at times.

Can you present any evidence of when Dirk guarded a tough assignments in the playoffs and held his own defensively? Stats or game film?

I don't overly value RAPM because there is lineup noise. I think some of the big men would often be put in games with a more defensive lineup, like how Dallas liked to surround Dirk with defensive players. (Win shares are also team based stats)

I really want to vote Dirk but I just can't do it without defensive evidence over Malone and I feel offense at West's PG position is more impactful (who is also an excellent defensive player).

To the voting: I'm totally objective and only care for the truth... I'm currently on ISH as well, but the broadness, stereotypes, cliches and hundreds of trolls with the inability of banning posters bother me... RealGM is a lot more detailed and honest, which is why I'm here now. I have my favorites, but no agendas... So I would welcome being mentioned on the voting panel as well. (Whoever decides that)

No, he usually didn't take "tough" assignments... But neither Garnett or Duncan guarded Dirk either when the played, and KG got lit up head to head.

The thing about Dirk and Malone, they already have similar stats, so having one of the greatest playoff runs in history to get the title and finals mvp should be good enough to break the tie IMO.... Then consider Dirk's offensive value.

If you go beyond the raw numbers, Dirk clearly is the best offensive player and the best clutch performer. These are by far the two most important assets in a franchise player.

Major advantage to have a 7 foot pf that can stretch the defense at the 3 point line and get his shot in the post at any time and have no problem consistently making plays/shots late in games. And being one of the best ft shooters ever.

Dirk made his teammates better. Dirk's impact is not fully captured in the offensive stats.

Do you realize how many times Terry and others get open shots or lanes to the basket off the pick and roll with Dirk because the opponent refuses to hedge off of Dirk or leave him at the 3 point line?

That is not picked up on any stat.

Dirk has hidden value.

People tend to ignore a lot of the things that make Dirk so great and look at him like some "one trick pony" that was a scorer and that's it. Dirk was/is able to stretch the defense at PF at the 3 point line and go into the wing post one on one and get a shot at any time. That versatility and its impact is huge in terms of winning and losing.

I don't think whatever edge Malone has defensively is enough at all to put him above Dirk all-time.

Dirk then has an all-time great playoff run, top 10 ****.

They forget his 48 point game on 15 attempts in game 1 of the WCF, against perennial DPOY candidate Serge Ibaka... Leading a 15 point comeback in game 4 while making heroic shot after heroic shot, scoring 11 points in the last 3.15 minutes, and the game tying free throw with 6 seconds left, even though the OKC ball boys "accidentally" spilled their ice bucket, so we had a good 1 minute break between 1st and 2nd free throw...
His 3 to give the Mavs a 1-point lead with a minute left in game 5 to ultimately win the series... His 8 points in the last 2 minutes of game 2 of the finals, including the game winner... His next go-ahead shot to seal it off in game 4, and then in game 6 scoring 10 of his 21 points in the 4th quarter AGAIN to seal the deal and close out the team of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, as virtually all of America went on to celebrate him... ala MJ in 1997 he had his hands in 2-3 game winning plays, and the highest playoff 4th quarter ppg since it's being recorded...

No other PF in history (except Duncan) has had an extended playoff run that can compare to Dirks 2011 post season. Surely this has to count for something, right?

Just being "good" wasn't good enough for the Mavericks in 2011, replace Dirk with a Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, and those things don't happen... They don't win. And this isn't a Wade 2006 case, where I could use the same argument for Wade against clearly superior players... Why not? Because Wade has fallen off.
Dirk hasn't. This argument is legit. Put those same players in Dirk's spot and they don't win a title and probably don't win 50 wins every season, either.


BTW: I can only imagine what Dirk's numbers would be like playing with Stockton his entire career. You can pop his ppg up by 1-2 and his fg% by another 1.

[Sports Realist]

I sincerely apologize for not being involved in the last couple of threads, life got in the way.

I haven't had the chance to read the previous threads, but I'm pretty amazed that K. Malone has dropped this far. Even if you have legitimate questions about his level of play during his prime, especially in the playoffs...he was still an excellent player and a legitimate offensive anchor that just wasn't good enough to carry an offense by himself. So basically, we're criticizing him for not being a Hakeem-level player...the guy that went at #9 on this list. At his best, I'd say guys like Kobe and Barkley and Dirk were better than Malone...but his longevity is INSANE. Not to mention, he barely missed any games when he played.

Malone is a clear choice for me over anyone left, with the exception of Dirk Nowitzki, and I can't really justify taking Dirk for being a slightly better player but is someone who hasn't lasted nearly as long.

Vote: Karl Malone

Without people posting their criteria in their sig, it's hard to know who values what (or remains consistent). The thing I've been trying to figure out with Malone -- and it's really interesting to see how far people take this -- is WHY people value longevity in the first place beyond a surface-level answer.

For me, it's simple. I think career value best maps to the concept of "goodness," in the exact same that if you asked me who the best player in a basketball game was, I wouldn't say "the guy who had the best quarter," I would look to see who imparted the most goodness over the course of the entire game (a function of action_quality * number_of_actions). Similarly, as a fan, journalist or (I imagine) owner or player do I think basketball goodness is limited to a set number of seasons, but an "overall" time period we typically call a career.

But obviously Malone is a great extreme example of this, for he doesn't have the peak to compete with some of the all-timers but makes up for it in volume (in years). So, for people who either

(a) believe in diminishing returns in "longevity' or
(b) value only "prime"

why do you not care about the overall picture? In the longevity thread this week, one poster said they care about a player being "good enough to be the best player on a title team." Again -- to any criteria like this -- why? Why would seasons like Ray Allen's Boston years not matter to you?

I don't think there's a right/wrong criteria, I just see giant holes in people's own alleged criteria that I don't understand, so I'm looking for clarity on how people reconcile them.

I think the question should be, how do you define "Longevity" ?

Simply years of play, years as starters, all-star years, etc.? Malone was clearly an ELITE player for very long... That's why I call it "prime longevity"... That DOES matter, a sustained level of play.. None the less I have him still a couple spots down.

[Sports Realist]

^^^ He said Dirk was "not that much worse a defender than Malone." You can't take anything he says about Dirk's defense seriously. Either that, or he's hopelessly ignorant about Karl. I suppose if its the latter and not the former then maybe his takes could carry some weight but until he makes it clear that's the case I wouldn't hold my breath for anything very informative.

Dirk was a worse defender, but for me not enough to erase the clear offensive gap Dirk has... Here, this article highlights it really well:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/steve-nash-george-karl-and-others-on-dirk-nowitzki-and-the-unguardable-play/

[penbeast0]

The voting so far adding to the post count from the last page:

Jerry West: 10- Penbeast (post 1); Clyde Frazier (33); ShaqAttack3234 (36, 52); Moonbeam (49); Warspite (58); GC Pantalones (62); ardee (78). batmana. Quotatious, john248

Karl Malone: 5 - trex_8063 (39); FJS (54); ronnymac2 (82), magicmer1, therealbig3


Moses Malone: 3 - DannyNoonan1221 (post 23); DQuinn1575 (30), JordansBulls;

David Robinson: 2 - Owly (post 11); shutupandjam (77)

Baller2014 has been banned; Jim Naismith is not yet a voting member of the project although we welcome your input.

[90sAllDecade]

Thanks for the response, interesting article.

To contribute, so far I've been researching Moses and a problem is missing stats in many playoff series on BBref, lack of game film as well. But even with the games I've seen and stats I've found I haven't been really impressed. I'm still checking to make sure but I think I've found other posts that might sum up what I see so far, until I find different evidence to change my mind:

his peak is about as good as Ewing's, probably a bit worse. so better than overrated Moses or Alonzo.

Why do people say Moses was overrated?

1) his defense was poor, was a big mins guy on the worst defensive team of his era (late 70s/early 80s Rockets) so he deserves a lot of blame for that, particularly playing the center position which has the most impact on defense both in positive and negative way. if you're a bad defensive PG, it won't matter all that much, but if you're Bargnani your team is surely not gonna be able to hide you defensively.

2) his offense was dependant on playing with other star players, you couldn't run the offense through Moses like you could with many of the all time bigs, it gets worse, you couldn't even dump the ball down low and expect Moses to dominate 1 on 1 because he didn't really have much of a post-game. his scoring was all about offensive rebounding and finishing off of others. sure he had some scoring moves, that famous pump fake and drive, he fouled out your entire frontline, he was amazing FT scorer, he was surely very unconventional, but the most valuable bigs gave you a guy who is able to be a playmaker, either from the high post (Walton, KG) or from the low post (Hakeem, Shaq). Moses was neither.

3) his style of play made his offense hurt his team's defense because as he was crashing the boards, he was unable to get back on defense and that was a huge loss in an era when every team played at 100+ pace. if you look at Moses stats what stands out the most is offensive rebounding, the least valuable stat in the boxscore. then you have high volume scoring @ high efficiency but those pts come as a finisher, not from his shot creation. think Pau Gasol vs McHale. then most importantly you have his defense being well sub-par. didn't boxout very well (Rockets had bad defensive rebounding %), blocked some shots but that came from chasing blocks not from playing good defense, played well as a man defender but that's not nearly as important as help D etc. the study of Moses Malone's game teaches you which boxscore stats are important in terms of high impact, and which aren't. it teaches you what's the right way of playing basketball. Moses' style

as a result of which his boxscore stats were great but they didn't translate very well to impact. Moses was excellent at what he was doing, as boxscore stats clearly indicate, but what he was doing wasn't necessarily that valuable to his teams. it wasn't the right way.

Other posters I've read make similar points about Moses that bear out when I've examined him so far. Although I disagree with some of the things Bastillion and others say at times, Moses doesn't look as impactful as other players at the moment for me. I'm having difficulty really creating a defensive comparison with Karl at the moment.

[john248]

He has an unofficial quadruple double where he shot 16/17, 12/12 FT and went 44/12/12/10blk against the Celtics.

I've seen this mentioned before several times over the years, and I'll see if I can find it, as I wish to verify it for myself.

It's on his NBA.com bio page when I did the search just now. When I searched for Jerry West here, I initially found it in your thread.

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