RealGM Top 100 List #16

[D Nice]

The most relevant years to the discussion are '00-'10. Of those 11 seasons only 3 of which could be construed as "bad defense" (4 if you want to be hypercritical of the 2010 Regular Season) yet you and other make these sweeping declarations that (without qualification) are assumed to relate to one's entire career. If you meant the '05-'07 Lakers, SAY THAT. Taking random problems from one or a couple seasons (where his defensive shortcomings are more a matter of context than approach or ability) and extrapolating them over the lifespan of an entire career is just hate. Or ignorance. Or pick-your-word. But it's certainly not "doing it right," and it's not contributing to discovery in any meaningful fashion.

If this kind of thing were typical of, oh, ANY of the other top 15 guys being discussed it wouldn't be a big deal. But I've been able to catch up on reading all of the project-related threads this week, and (of course) Kobe is by and large the only one you see this done to (unsurprisingly, of course).

[AussieBuck]

I'm not part of this project this time out so I'm not going to derail this anymore. Arguing with Kobe fans isn't that much fun anyway.

[D Nice]

Right, drop misinformation about a player you don't like, then brush it casually aside as "no big deal" in a discovery-related project. Good stuff (btw why the hell is Kobe being brought up in the #16 thread, that in of itself is ridiculous). I'm not a voting member either, but I do have a propensity to attack mistruth as it passes by my screen, particularly if I see it actually permeate the discourse (which when done right proves invaluable).

[Melodabeast]

They are phenomenal, just not as phenomenal as his supporters would prefer to see.

Yeah, you're right. They are phenomenal. I'm sure you would know what his 'supporters' want.

Fortunately, the case for Kobe's greatness goes far beyond just RAPM, unlike some other players...

[Melodabeast]

.

[Texas Chuck]

less Kobe

[90sAllDecade]

Dirk vs Karl Malone 2001 playoffs.

Dirk outplayed Malone and the Mavs won the series, but Karl posted great numbers. Malone was 37 years old!

But Nowitzki did outplay him and was onky 22 years old himself, the year right before he was selected for his first all star game.

Malone's highlights:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhET0Z37Wd8[/youtube]

Dirk's highlights (with entertaining German commentary )

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YKhZ-B_OQ[/youtube]

Series summary:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 1_WC1.html

[Melodabeast]

And this says things about the assumption that he can become a huge defender when you need him to. What he can do is dial up his intensity in man coverage of a star perimeter player if that's what his team needs. That's not nothing, but ironically, what it means is that it'd be most useful when playing against himself. Since most team's don't have a shooting guard shooting at the volume he shoots, there are diminishing returns to this.

Wrong. It's the team/help defense that sees the biggest "dialing up' in the post-season. It's also funny how you're trying to act like his man defense is only useful if there's a superstar SG on the other end when in fact his biggest impact as a on-ball post-season defender came against points like Westbrook, Rondo, Bibby, Jackson, Iverson, etc. Nice try though.

I would expect to take his defense over Nash's, but I'm not entirely sure about that. With Nash you know exactly what the issue is at all times. You know he's always going to make the officially correct play given his limitations, and you can work to help him accordingly. With Kobe, help defense often means running out to the guy he just left open.

Yeah, with Nash you just have to deal with him getting blown by on every other possession, being unable to be any sort of hindrance in terms of contesting shots, and generally being completely useless defensively.

Not a big deal at all.

[penbeast0]

OK, no KOBE for the next page at least. It's derailing the thread and needs to stop.

[rich316]

snip

Wow, great game. Thanks for posting. I kept expecting the Sixers to give that game away, they were trying so hard to lose for those last 6 minutes. Hersey Hawkins looks like he was really good. Seems strange that he was traded so many times. Was that an outlier good game for him?

Some things that jumped out to me about Barkley: I haven't heard of him having a reputation as a great passer, but he had some really nice assists in that game. There were a couple plays where he had some impressive two-man work with Gminski, and he found open shooters extremely quickly after snagging offensive rebounds. And wow, those rebounds . I didn't notice him as a huge liability on defense, and he at least gave a few hard "no-layups" fouls. He also had some very boneheaded turnovers when pressured. Of course, I'm not going to draw any real conclusions from a single game.

Do we have more evidence that Barkley is a significantly better shot-creator than Dirk? I think that Dirk's assist numbers underrate his ability to create for his teammates. Barkley looks better in the assist column - can we say there is a gap there? He also averages about 1 more TO per game than Dirk over their careers. Perhaps his shot creation came with a trade-off in dangerous passes.

[DQuinn1575]

Vote for Moses

Top player in nba 1979-1983- 5 year period

Played jabbar even 78-80
Outplayed him 81-83

Played a different game then everyone else. He created his own offense by getting offensive boards.

Decent defensive center- joined worst defensive team in league. Houston added guys like 34 yo rick Barry and slowest guy in league billy paultz. Team didn't improve much in Houston, but not because he was bad


Took defensive star Caldwell jones place in Philly and team improved.

As center made 2 all-defense teams- better than dirk. Fairly even with Karl.

Difference with Karl is Moses delivered in playoffs.

Moses played prime jabbar even 78-80

Moses was better than bird 81-83
They were contemporaries who are a year apart.

Vote for Moses malone




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[Jim Naismith]

MVP shares and RealGM Player of the Year shares are weighted thus:

1st place vote = 10
2nd place vote = 7
3rd place vote = 5
4th place vote = 3
5th place vote = 1

But, in the Olympics, would anyone really trade a gold medal for two bronzes?

Would anyone even trade a gold medal for two silvers?

What if we weighted the votes in a 6 : 2 : 1 : 0.6 : 0.4 ratio instead?

How would some of the all-time RPoY Award Share totals look?
Here are some revised totals:

Jordan.....8.74
LeBron.....5.46
Duncan....4.77
Bird........4.45
Magic......4.24
Shaq.......4.13
Hakeem...2.84
Moses.....2.58
KG.........2.33
Kobe.......2.18
Karl........2.11
Wade......1.65
Dirk........1.54
Robinson..1.05
Gervin.....0.92
Walton.....0.91

[rich316]

I've heard some convincing arguments for The Admiral, and I'm just getting to know Barkley, but I'm still going with Dirk Nowitzki here.

I'm learning more about early 2000's Dirk, and seeing that he had some pretty serious impact back then, as a much more raw player than he became in the late 2000's. I'm warming up to Moses, but I'm still unconvinced by Karl Malone. I just don't think a player of his profile can give alpha-dog, title-winning impact without extreme luck coming into play. My reasoning from the last thread:

When I judge the "greatness" of a player, I am combining a lot of concepts. Longevity, peak impact, prime length, non-prime contributions, playoff wins, durability, teamwork. Most significantly, though, I am considering what that player can bring to the table in a hypothetical team-building scenario. I firmly believe that Nowitzki is the strongest remaining candidate based on those criteria, with some weight given to overall career value. Nobody else left on the board gives you more years of "If this guy is on my team, we have a really good chance of fielding a team good enough to win the title."

Dirk's offensive play is a unique asset. Nobody else can stretch defenses in the ways that he can, which gives his club enormous team-building advantages relative to the rest of the league. Don't have a top-shelf perimeter scorer? No problem, just find any journeyman combo guard and he will look like an all-star running the PnR with Dirk. Having problems with a rim-protecting big on the other team? No problem, Dirk can draw him away from the basket. Don't have a real point guard? It's cool, Dirk will work in the high post and create open looks for his teammates through his massive defense-warping talents.

[DHodgkins]

Vote: Karl Malone

- A 1,353 game stretch averaging 26/10

Games missed each season
1, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1, 2, 1

- 4th all time in MVP award shares
- Most defensive rebounds ever
- 2nd most points ever
- 13 times in the top 5 in WS
- 3rd all time in most win shares
- 12 seasons of 2,000+ points --- Most all time

[magicmerl]

Here's a random snippet of all players who made more than 7,000 free throws in their career:

1 Karl Malone....... 9787
2 Moses Malone.... 8531
3 Kobe Bryant...... 7950
4 Oscar Robertson 7694
5 Michael Jordan.. 7327
6 Jerry West........ 7160

[batmana]

I am still undecided here and I'm starting to consider George Mikan already. Am I the first/only one?

Out of the rest, I am having a hard time separating Karl Malone, Dirk and Moses and I'll probably go with one of these three or Mikan. The thing that I am trying to stay consistent with is not punishing players for playing in a different era. I'll try not to bring portability since it's a moot point and all speculation anyway. But still there is the question of whether Mikan was truly dominant or simply outmatched his opponents, almost like playing against high-school kids or something. I'll have to read a bit more about this early era before deciding how to handle this.

[Owly]

MVP shares and RealGM Player of the Year shares are weighted thus:

1st place vote = 10
2nd place vote = 7
3rd place vote = 5
4th place vote = 3
5th place vote = 1

But, in the Olympics, would anyone really trade a gold medal for two bronzes?

Would anyone even trade a gold medal for two silvers?

What if we weighted the votes in a 6 : 2 : 1 : 0.6 : 0.4 ratio instead?

How would some of the all-time RPoY Award Share totals look?
Here are some revised totals:

Jordan.....8.74
LeBron.....5.46
Duncan....4.77
Bird........4.45
Magic......4.24
Shaq.......4.13
Hakeem...2.84
Moses.....2.58
KG.........2.33
Kobe.......2.18
Karl........2.11
Wade......1.65
Dirk........1.54
Robinson..1.05
Gervin.....0.92
Walton.....0.91

Okay so now you've got a system whereby a consensus MVP is worth three seasons of the (consensus) 2nd best player. Or with a unanimously ordered top 5, your weighting prefers having guy number 1 to having all of 2-5. Together. All of them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is no season in NBA history where I would rather have the top player than all of the next four, not one.

[penbeast0]

...

Some things that jumped out to me about Barkley: I haven't heard of him having a reputation as a great passer, but he had some really nice assists in that game. .... He also had some very boneheaded turnovers when pressured. Of course,... Perhaps his shot creation came with a trade-off in dangerous passes.

That's the impression I always had of Charles; had the ability to make highlight passes but didn't really have the court vision and would sometimes just throw it away trying for the big assist. Focus was always the problem for him; if you saw him focused on defense for a whole game, that's impressive. If focused, he was still a bit below average defensively due to his size but wasn't a major liability.

[penbeast0]

I am still undecided here and I'm starting to consider George Mikan already. Am I the first/only one?

Out of the rest, I am having a hard time separating Karl Malone, Dirk and Moses and I'll probably go with one of these three or Mikan. The thing that I am trying to stay consistent with is not punishing players for playing in a different era. I'll try not to bring portability since it's a moot point and all speculation anyway. But still there is the question of whether Mikan was truly dominant or simply outmatched his opponents, almost like playing against high-school kids or something. I'll have to read a bit more about this early era before deciding how to handle this.

I don't think I start even looking at Mikan until Moses is in. Moses was the dominant player in the league for about 3 years (not as dominant as Mikan but in a tougher league) and they played a similar style dependant on brute strength and athleticism. Then I could see comparing Mikan to Ewing, Howard, or Gilmore who are my next three centers after the Admiral and Moses.

[DQuinn1575]

I am still undecided here and I'm starting to consider George Mikan already. Am I the first/only one?

Out of the rest, I am having a hard time separating Karl Malone, Dirk and Moses and I'll probably go with one of these three or Mikan. The thing that I am trying to stay consistent with is not punishing players for playing in a different era. I'll try not to bring portability since it's a moot point and all speculation anyway. But still there is the question of whether Mikan was truly dominant or simply outmatched his opponents, almost like playing against high-school kids or something. I'll have to read a bit more about this early era before deciding how to handle this.

Mikan only played 5 years in the nba after the merger of the nbl and baa. This is the start of our time period here. He was very dominant, but I am putting him behind Moses, Karl, and dirk based on longevity.
After those 3, I will seriously consider Mikan.


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