The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[King4Day]

Can anyone interested in discussing the insiders do it in another thread/forum. I'm sick of coming here thinking there's new debate with the new posts and instead it's just more of a waste of time.

This is 100% not the thread for it.

[spanishninja]

^ You draft a franchise player like Chicago did with Jordan, Houston did with Olajuwon , San Antonio did with Duncan, Seattle with Durant, New Orleans with Anthony Davis and so on. You cant just write the draft off as a "crapshoot", that is ignorant, its whole purpose is to help small markets land talent. What is wrong with wanting to take advantage of that?

Q: How do you draft a franchise player?

A: Draft a franchise player like Chicago did with Jordan.



Calling the draft a crapshoot isn't ignorant-- it's a statistical fact. There is a lot of luck involved. I didn't say you shouldn't take advantage of it. Of course you should. I just don't think there is an efficient way to strategize getting a star player from it (ex. tanking). Of course you can cherry pick examples like Jordan, Olajuwon, etc. but we only know those were franchise players with hindsight, which we don't have on draft day. There are countless counterexamples. The '83 Bulls had a better record than the 2012 Suns. They got the greatest player of all-time. We got Alex Len.

In the ten drafts before 2014, 11 of the 40 top four picks have made the All-NBA team. And that counts second and third team All-NBA. And even if you're lucky enough to get a star, doesn't mean you are set. Anthony Davis may never take the Pelicans to the playoffs, and eventually leave a la Love.

We were supposed to be the worst team in the NBA last year, by far. Instead we were two games away from being in the top 10, even after a significant injury. We are building a champion by having a great GM and a great coach. This is just as likely to net us a title as trying to game the draft system to get the next star. TJ Warren might end up a better player than Wiggins or Parker or both. And because McD played to win, we built great chemistry, a winning attitude and gave the fans a memorable season.

A great example of this is Portland. Look at how many lottery picks they had between 2006 when they drafted LMA to now. They got out of the first round exactly once in 8 years with all those picks.

[Scutt]

This team went from 20 wins to 48 wins in a single year largely because of Goran Dragic and you still have people whining about "franchise players" and "tanking" to get some loser in a draft and still think someone can go from worst to first. Newsflash, guy: This IS our rebuild. The team took massive strides last year and told you and cancerous douchebags LIKE you who would rather foster a losing culture to shove it up your ass. Go back to playing NBA2K because your preferred way doesn't work in real life.

Guess what, your "sainted" 2014 #1 pick that everyone jizzed over for the last two years is getting dealt for a superstar NBA player that nobody came close to expecting would be this good.

Good grief. Another one to the ignore list. I'd prefer it if none of you guys quoted this guy ever again. Thanks.

No need to get nasty and start name calling. I am well aware that many posters don't agree with what I am saying, but I have been a Suns fan for a long time and I am passionate about them, so I feel the need to vent from time to time.

If our rebuild was to simply to bring back Goran Dragic and role players, then that is a sad attempt at a rebuild and not fair to fans. Dragic as our best player is going to lead us to around 40 wins if we are lucky. I am sorry, but watching 40 win teams fight for the last playoff spot just doesn't excite me anymore. I have watched the Suns do it way too often. This team took people by surprise last year and overachieved to 48 games. I honestly believe there isn't enough talent on the roster for them to take that next step and be a team capable of winning 55+ or doing any damage in the playoffs. As a Suns fan, I am tired of watching our teams get out rebounded and players ignoring the defensive side of things. Our big free agent signing was Thomas. What a shock, a player that is all offense and a bad defender.

And just so everyone is clear, I am not advocating for the Suns to tank and be horrible. I just want the young guys to get a chance, and if that means some growing pains so be it, or if they make the playoffs even better. I am not a fan of run and gun and I think this guard oriented offense will really hurt Plumlee and Len. They are barley going to get meaningful touches on the offensive end. I think Plumlee has great footwork, he just needs to work on his moves and build confidence. Im fearful he wont get to do that in our offense. I would be the happiest man in the world if was Markieff, Plumlee, Archie, Len, and TJ Warren that were getting meaningful minutes and that led us to the 8th seed because I know they are young and could build off the experience. That is why 2010 was so special, everyone wrote Dragic and Rolo off as scrubs the year before, and yet in their 2nd year they helped us get to the western conference finals. I don't want to see the Suns mess up the young talent they have because they are so desperate to simply be a playoff team again.

[Sunsdeuce]

We got our franchise player when we did tank, his name is Alex Len.

In all fairness, there isn't a single franchise player from that draft. That was probably the worse draft class in 20 years. We just picked the wrong time to tank.


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[bwgood77]

A great example of this is Portland. Look at how many lottery picks they had between 2006 when they drafted LMA to now. They got out of the first round exactly once in 8 years with all those picks.

Or Minnesota. Or Sacramento. Or GS for 18 years, and their star came with the 7th pick finally. Minnesota had a star and couldn't make it and lost him. Milwaukee got tons of high picks, as did Charlotte. I'm not sure if they are all set for the future either or have a ceiling of 2nd round teams.

[NaturalBuns]

We got our franchise player when we did tank, his name is Alex Len.

In all fairness, there isn't a single franchise player from that draft. That was probably the worse draft class in 20 years. We just picked the wrong time to tank.


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The bucks may have one

[Revived]

If the T-Wolves, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers or Bucks become contenders before the Suns, then the Suns decision not to tank will become a humiliating decision.

[Cutter]

Found this article on the TWolves board.

Basically the author says that in the NBA, just like in nature, you must evolve in new ways or you die. If the Suns just try to match the existing method of team building seen today we will always be behind. Teams must always be looking at new and innovative ways of winning, or else they won't win much. The author mentions the Suns a few times. Overall a good read for a boring summer.

https://medium.com/ten-pens/the-kevin-love-problem-e08496464659

[Scutt]

I would like the Suns to be more innovative and try new things like not being so guard orientated. We have a history of great point guards, but the same cannot be said of Centers and power forwards. Both Alex Len and Miles Plumlee have loads of potential, especially Len if he can stay healthy. I just want to seem them get a chance to reach that full offensive potential by getting an opportunity.

[Saberestar]

Lots of chatter about Greg Monroe today. Pacers shopping Hibbert and a source tells me they have called the Pistons about him. All I know.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dery1051
Greg Monroe S&T for Hibbert/pick it would be great for Indiana. Pistons would have to find a third team to trade Hibbert...Celtics can be good option if they finally trade Rondo.

[spanishninja]

If the T-Wolves, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers or Bucks become contenders before the Suns, then the Suns decision not to tank will become a humiliating decision.

Of this group, only the Lakers or the Celtics have a chance of becoming contenders before the Suns, and it would not be because they got Julius Randle or Marcus Smart. It would be because they are big markets and actually manage to sign star free agents. For us it would be much less feasible to do that.

[gaspar]

If the T-Wolves, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers or Bucks become contenders before the Suns, then the Suns decision not to tank will become a humiliating decision.

BS.

[JTrain]

I don't think people mean/think it's literally the definition of insanity. It's like saying, "Eating pizza for desert is the definition of gluttony."

The desert is not a great place to eat a dessert.

Dammit. So embarrassed.

But what if it's a hot dish?

[RunDogGun]

I don't think people mean/think it's literally the definition of insanity. It's like saying, "Eating pizza for desert is the definition of gluttony."

The desert is not a great place to eat a dessert.

Dammit. So embarrassed.

But what if it's a hot dish?

But why eat a hot dish for dessert in the heat? Ice cream makes sense, but only for a few minutes. Although I used to enjoy Otterpops when I was a kid.

Whoops, sorry supposed to talk about offseason stuff here. Maybe we can get rid of this winning culture we have worked hard to create, and adopt a losing culture which the league seems hell bent to discourage.

[letsgosuns]

I did not read the article about innovation but to me basketball is pretty simple, virtually every championship team of the past 30+ years or so has had an MVP candidate, a great defense, and a great coach. That is the basic strategy. Now achieving that strategy is incredibly difficult. The Phoenix Suns organization has never had all of those things together at the same time except maybe in 1993. They have had each one of those things individually at different times, but pretty much never all three together. My best examples are the Barkley years, the Kidd years, and the Nash years.

Barkley years: 1993 was the best team the Suns ever had by far. They had the MVP, a top ten defense, and a really good coach. That is why the were in the Finals. Statistically they were number one in offense and number nine in defense. Without a doubt a championship caliber team. They lost because they played Michael Jordan who is the greatest player of all time and he never lost in the Finals.

In 1994, the Suns had a major defensive drop off and fell to the 16th best defense in the league. Still number one in offense, but defensively far worse. In 1995 it got even worse as they fell all the way down to the 19th best defense in the league. Say what you will about Danny Manning going down, and yes that was a huge blow, but the fact remains that they were not a good defensive team at all. In 1996 they were the 23rd best defense in the league and lost in the first round. None of this is a coincidence.

1993: top ten defense and made the Finals
1994-1996: nowhere near a top ten defense and never made it past the second round.

Jason Kidd years: Had some really awesome defensive teams but no MVP candidate. Skiles was a pretty good coach at times though. Never made it past the second round.

Steve Nash years: MVP candidates, phenomenal offense, but absolutely terrible defense. Plus a coach that legitimately did not even coach defense. The Suns were never a top ten defense with those Nash teams and always lost to the better defensive teams. They never even made the Finals even though they were arguably the most talented team year after year. That is why there is no substitute for a great defense.

So my whole point comes back to the original idea. Over the past few decades of NBA basketball, you need an MVP candidate, a great defense, and a great coach. The closest the Suns had to that was in 1993 and it is no coincidence that they were in the Finals that year. Until the Suns put this formula together, they will not win a title. I hope McDonough is able to come through.

[Frank Lee]

This team went from 20 wins to 48 wins in a single year largely because of Goran Dragic and you still have people whining about "franchise players" and "tanking" to get some loser in a draft and still think someone can go from worst to first. Newsflash, guy: This IS our rebuild. The team took massive strides last year and told you and cancerous douchebags LIKE you who would rather foster a losing culture to shove it up your ass. Go back to playing NBA2K because your preferred way doesn't work in real life.

Guess what, your "sainted" 2014 #1 pick that everyone jizzed over for the last two years is getting dealt for a superstar NBA player that nobody came close to expecting would be this good.

Good grief. Another one to the ignore list. I'd prefer it if none of you guys quoted this guy ever again. Thanks.

Hahahah too mean-spirited but And-1'd for hilarity and accuracy

Could you guys pleas stop quoting this Jack and reinforcing his negative posts? He is nowhere close to being funny, relevant, or insightful as a poster. His Archie Bunker approach to other posters on this board has grown old and boorish. His public touting of whom he has put on ignore is a pathetic cry for attention. He is tired and sophomoric. His disdain and verbal jabs at posters who disagree with him is the anesthetist of what this board is about. He is seeking serious attention, because he probably isn't getting any in real life with that totalitarianistic atttitude of his. Don't laugh at a malignant, infectious, metastasizing, cancerous poster like BH....cut him out!!

[Revived]

If the T-Wolves, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers or Bucks become contenders before the Suns, then the Suns decision not to tank will become a humiliating decision.

Of this group, only the Lakers or the Celtics have a chance of becoming contenders before the Suns, and it would not be because they got Julius Randle or Marcus Smart. It would be because they are big markets and actually manage to sign star free agents. For us it would be much less feasible to do that.

No superstar FA in their prime has signed with the Lakers in the past 20-30 years other than Shaq.

If they become contenders before us, it's won't just be because their "market" suddenly became appealing to all the superstar FAs.

[spanishninja]

If the T-Wolves, Lakers, Celtics, 76ers or Bucks become contenders before the Suns, then the Suns decision not to tank will become a humiliating decision.

Of this group, only the Lakers or the Celtics have a chance of becoming contenders before the Suns, and it would not be because they got Julius Randle or Marcus Smart. It would be because they are big markets and actually manage to sign star free agents. For us it would be much less feasible to do that.

No superstar FA in their prime has signed with the Lakers in the past 20-30 years other than Shaq.

If they become contenders before us, it's won't just be because their "market" suddenly became appealing to all the superstar FAs.

free agents or trades, I should have said. rigged trades like Gasol, and almost CP3.

[Damkac]

free agents or trades, I should have said. rigged trades like Gasol, and almost CP3.

So do owners of the other teams love Lakers so much that they are making trades favoring them? Or mayby the league forces them to do that? Even though NBA blocked that CP3 trade.
Suns got Bledsoe for Dudley. Is that rigged? Or trading Hedo's horrible contract for Gortat and Carter's massive expiring.
Market size affects free agency to some extent but anyway players usually go where they can get the biggest money.

[bwgood77]

I would like the Suns to be more innovative and try new things like not being so guard orientated. We have a history of great point guards, but the same cannot be said of Centers and power forwards. Both Alex Len and Miles Plumlee have loads of potential, especially Len if he can stay healthy. I just want to seem them get a chance to reach that full offensive potential by getting an opportunity.

There really haven't been too many great centers though. Not counting Wilt and Russell, who were around before the Suns existed, there have maybe been about eight great centers. We almost got Kareem, but lost a coin flip and missed Robinson by one pick, and ended up with Gilliam. We had the 2nd pick in both those drafts and ended up with crap, so it's based on a lot of luck if you are bad. You barely miss getting that great player and end up with nothing.

We did have Alvan Adams, who was ROY and an all star and one of the better centers in the league during his time.

We have had our share of great power forwards, including Barkley, Amare, Nance, a year of McDyess. Some of the great or really good power forwards get drafted fairly late, including Dirk, Randolph, David West, etc.

The main thing you need is a great GM and coach to put the right team together. The Suns with Marbury, JJ, Marion and Amare stunk. You pair a coach and the right player to those same teammates and they are among the best in the league. None of those guys were drafted higher than 9th.

Warren may be as good as anyone from this draft class. I was all for rebuilding last year but our coach was incredible and got the most out of young players. How can you be disappointed with that? Would you have rather had a crappy coach? Would you want them to trade Bledsoe and Goran for future picks? I'm not sure what strategy you are advocating. I would have been happy being bad for a year, getting a good pick, and growing slowly, but Hornacek coached the **** out of these guys and I'm damn happy we have a coach who looks like he will be among the best in the league for years.

When Duncan retires do you expect the Spurs to suck? Is Popovich now just as important? What player on that team was drafted higher than 15th other than Duncan?