Official Chelsea FC Thread

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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#821 » by 5DOM » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:56 am

treiz wrote:That's the problem we didn't have a semi decent academy until some years after Roman bought us, just look at this 'notable academy graduates' and you can calculate the success rate. It's just not great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F. ... _graduates

But at least in the last couple of years they're trying, the U21s recently won the U21 league last year which mostly comprises of English players. So there's a start


It's more than just last couple years too. The difficulty, as it always is, is incorporating the youth players to the first team, but so many things need to happen for that. That said, youth academy's not just about promoting 1 or 2 players every few years.
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Re: AW: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#822 » by Foye » Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:13 pm

5DOM wrote:
Foye wrote:
5DOM wrote:
cmon now, as you like to remind us, English players are overpriced :D Spent only about 7M in transfer fees on two of the better ones.


You know that you are allowed to develop English players yourself rather than having to buy them right?

No matter how high the prices for English players are. Having just two of them on the roster is pathetic. You would figure a semi decent youth academy would produce at least one Emglish player every two-three years who can make the jump to the own pro team. Not at Chelsea it seems.

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That was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment, but anyways, Chelsea have one of the best, if not the best, youth teams in the country and maybe the world - full of English talents across all age groups (something even Liam Brady recently acknowledged). It's simply not that easy to promote youngsters when you have a deep squad of international players. Many of the youth players will be playing professional football elsewhere at least temporarily, and that's simply the development strategy the club decided to take. That doesn't mean there's no youth development going on. We can have the likes of Chalobah sit on the bench this season, but why do that when he can go play in a competitive environment week-in-week-out? We'll see if any of the promising youth players can make it at Chelsea, but I'm confident there will be a lot of Chelsea-produced players playing professional football.


The problem to me seems more that Abramovich & Chelsea want names on the pitch. (English) youth academy players or talents picked up for relatively small amount of money from a different country have no names.

In Barcelona, Madrid or Bayern they don't care what the name of the player is. If the talent is good enough he will be introduced to the first squad and eventually play. If they loan out, it usually is one season, not more.

What Chelsea are doing to their young players is close to slavery. A season in league x for team y "ah you did well but you are still not ready for the first team". Then player goes to league z and plays for team f "you did well but again maybe we should loan you out to a EPL team now".
Then after years of development the player thinks "Hey I'm ready to play in the senior squad now. 3 weeks into the transfer window a new player is bought for 30 mil. € and the player who has spent years developing to finally get a chance of playing for Chelsea is left in the dust.

Chelsea is not the only club who acts like this and it is a good business model but morally extremely questionable if you ask me.

We can use De Bruyne and Lukaku as an example. They are not English but fit the description of players who didn't have a name coming to Chelsea.
De Bryune had a comparable or arguably better 12/13 Bundesliga season than Schürrle. Why did you guys not just offer De Bruyne Schürrles spot?

Also Lukaku who was coming of a strong 12/13 EPL season. What does Chelsea do? Pick up Etoo, loan out Lukaku. And everyone including Mourinho had a good laugh about Chelseas strikers.
This offseason Chelsea had an opportunity to settle for a great CF rotation of Diego Costa & Lukaku and get rid of all of the deadweight Etoo, Torres & Ba. What do you guys do? Sell Lukaku and pick up another too old man in Drogba. At least got rid of Etoo & Ba, though.
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Re: AW: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#823 » by 5DOM » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:30 pm

Foye wrote:The problem to me seems more that Abramovich & Chelsea want names on the pitch. (English) youth academy players or talents picked up for relatively small amount of money from a different country have no names.

In Barcelona, Madrid or Bayern they don't care what the name of the player is. If the talent is good enough he will be introduced to the first squad and eventually play. If they loan out, it usually is one season, not more.

What Chelsea are doing to their young players is close to slavery. A season in league x for team y "ah you did well but you are still not ready for the first team". Then player goes to league z and plays for team f "you did well but again maybe we should loan you out to a EPL team now".
Then after years of development the player thinks "Hey I'm ready to play in the senior squad now. 3 weeks into the transfer window a new player is bought for 30 mil. € and the player who has spent years developing to finally get a chance of playing for Chelsea is left in the dust.

Chelsea is not the only club who acts like this and it is a good business model but morally extremely questionable if you ask me.


The problem is we haven't yet had young players who are good enough to play at the highest level. Maybe they would have developed better playing for Chelsea, but we've only had good youth players, not great ones. Bertrand may have played a role for us, but he also had the misfortune of fighting for a spot with Ashley Cole.

We can use De Bruyne and Lukaku as an example. They are not English but fit the description of players who didn't have a name coming to Chelsea.
De Bryune had a comparable or arguably better 12/13 Bundesliga season than Schürrle. Why did you guys not just offer De Bruyne Schürrles spot?

Also Lukaku who was coming of a strong 12/13 EPL season. What does Chelsea do? Pick up Etoo, loan out Lukaku. And everyone including Mourinho had a good laugh about Chelseas strikers.
This offseason Chelsea had an opportunity to settle for a great CF rotation of Diego Costa & Lukaku and get rid of all of the deadweight Etoo, Torres & Ba. What do you guys do? Sell Lukaku and pick up another too old man in Drogba. At least got rid of Etoo & Ba, though.


First of all, neither de Bruyne nor Lukaku was English or a Chelsea academy product, so I don't think the club's treatment of them is relevant to Chelsea's development of English youth players. Also, Eden Hazard is of the same age as de Bruyne, but he has no problem playing for Chelsea. Courtois also looks likely to stay at Chelsea for long term. I think ultimately the club made the correct choice of buying Schurrle who provides more width than de Bruyne.

In Lukaku's case, he could have fought for his place if he wanted to, but he didn't, and asked to leave. It would have been nice if he became the #1 starter for Chelsea, but I don't think it would have made much sense to guarantee him that spot because he had a good season at West Brom.

It's true that we gave up on the likes of Matic and Sturridge too soon, but I really believe that if an academy player is good enough to play, he will.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#824 » by treiz » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:59 pm

5DOM wrote:
treiz wrote:That's the problem we didn't have a semi decent academy until some years after Roman bought us, just look at this 'notable academy graduates' and you can calculate the success rate. It's just not great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F. ... _graduates

But at least in the last couple of years they're trying, the U21s recently won the U21 league last year which mostly comprises of English players. So there's a start


It's more than just last couple years too. The difficulty, as it always is, is incorporating the youth players to the first team, but so many things need to happen for that. That said, youth academy's not just about promoting 1 or 2 players every few years.


We're only seeing the fruits of the labour in the last couple of years, should've been more clear on that.

But at the end of the day, who knows how they'll develop further, like you said it's very difficult to integrate these guys to the team. But it wasn't really until AVB that we've given some of these guys chances. So like I said, it's a start

Atsu to Everton looks really good right now. Sort of what is being discussed here in terms of our player development programme
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#825 » by treiz » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:02 pm

To add to your point to 5DOM

Oscar and Azpilicueta are also players who came to us at a young age if Lukaku and De Bruyne are going to be used as examples. And they've shown that they are good enough to play for us, especially Dave last year he didn't get into the team until around Christmas when Ashley Cole wasn't playin well. He put in the work and Jose put his trust in him and he was one of our best players last year. Mourinho has shown that he's willing to play youngsters, if you're good enough, work hard for the team and are willing to fight for your place. Something that can't be said about Lukaku and De bruyne
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#826 » by fatlever » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:25 pm

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/05/overra ... a-edition/

thoughts on this article (rank across link on wagnh today)?

hazard overrated, willian underrated
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#827 » by fatlever » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:29 pm

jose confirmed today that we still are over by one foreign player.

some solutions
- sell cech
- not register schwarzer
- sell mikel
- loan for schurrle, salah or van ginkel
- sell torres (obviously the ideal solution, that is very doubtful)

seems like the easy solution is to not register schwarzer and postpone the decision on cech until january or next summer. but then why even re-sign schwarzer in the first place?

any other ideas?
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#828 » by treiz » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:34 pm

Interesting read, I do agree that Willian might be underrated, but from my experience most people rate him just fine, they appreciate him being good going forward as well as defending.

As for Hazard, the main point for him being overrated is that he doesn't shoot enough which IMO is a bit ridiculous, everybody knows he's not a Ronaldo/Messi/Suarez type where he'll shoot 10 times a game, he definitely prefers to make a pass than to shoot as proven by those numbers. The guy scored 14 goals and had 7 assists and those numbers could've been higher had we perhaps had a better strike force, which the article even acknowledges.

That one foreign player will probably either Courtois (loan) or Cech (sell), Jose has already said in a previous interview that he wants to keep Torres and loaning out Romeu pretty much guarantees Mikel a place. As for Schurrle and Van Ginkel, I don't think they'll be going anywhere too, Schurrle will probably be the first guy off the bench should we need a goal and Van Ginkel should play in the cup games.

Salah going out on loan is a really good idea, think it's pretty determined by signing Schwarzer that one of Cech/Courtois will be out soon.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#829 » by fatlever » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:24 pm

jose says both cech and courtois are staying. hasn't named a starter for monday. this is going to be interesting.

gut say cech is named starter on monday since courtois barely played in preseason.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#830 » by MountainDrew » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:53 pm

Traore and Wallace both in starting lineup vs Cambuur. Kickoff in about 50 minutes.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#831 » by MountainDrew » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:45 pm

Typical Vitesse, 2-2 draw. Equaliser in 88th minute off a corner which should not have been given. Vitesse never manage to kill the game and it's cost them again. Didn't push hard enough for 3-1 and is too shaky in defense to be at all confident with just a 1 goal lead.

Traore was very good. Impressive for an 18 year old. Still raw, but he is very creative, has a lot of pace and really makes things happen. Could turn out to be a real difference maker in the future. He was subbed off in the 75th minute because he was an injury waiting to happen. Lost his balance very often and slipped 4+ times, which is noteworthy because it didn't really happen to anyone else. Think he also has to get stronger.

Wallace is pretty good offensively, not too spectacular but very solid. Defense is ok. His size is worrisome though, I don't think he is strong or big enough to ever really be succesful in the premier league, he's certainly nowhere close to being good enough for Chelsea yet. Based of limited sample size, i think he's more a guy that will be loaned out for a few seasons before eventually selling him, like PvA. Will have to see more though.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#832 » by fatlever » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:07 am

anyone want to take a guess at the starting lineup for monday?

jose said that the oscar, willian, ramires and schurrle would not be rushed back after world cup and that the players who are the most fit will play. that can be interpreted a few ways.
- they dont play at all monday
- they dont start monday, but perhaps come in and play 20 mins
- they start but wont go 90.

my guess is the closer to the 2nd option

also, ramires is suspended.

my guess
cech
ivan cahill terry azpi
matic mvg
salah cesc hazard
costa

it also wouldnt shock me to see azpi moved into midfield for this one to make room for luis on the left with salah on the bench. its not ideal, but with oscar, ramires, william and schurrle possibly not starting, its an option.

personally, i think luis needs to take the job away from ivan or azpi before he is handed automatic starting spots. obviously, all 3 fullbacks will get plenty of games in the end though.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#833 » by MaliBrah » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:17 am

read I think it was a daily mail reporter saying he had heard that courtois would be starting against burnley. Think the name was lee clayton.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#834 » by treiz » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:50 am

I like the look of that fatlever I agree that I wouldn't be surprised if Dave is pushed forward, also perhaps Mikel instead of MvG although I'd much prefer MvG I just see Jose trusting Mikel more. These are all surprisingly very defensive changes against Burnley, but if this is the case then Matic might be able to show his attacking prowess but with the 4 not playing this game due to the WC this is the best we can do.

EDIT: Moses to Stoke on season-long loan
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#835 » by 5DOM » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Can't see Salah starting even if he's the most-ready physically. Think we'll see Torres or Azpi out on the right wing before Salah. Despite Jose's comments, I think we'll see a strong lineup because it's the first game.

btw McEachran's off to Vitesse. Hopefully it works out
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#836 » by MountainDrew » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:28 pm

5DOM wrote:btw McEachran's off to Vitesse. Hopefully it works out


Haven't seen this confirmed anywhere, but it's looking likely.

Really hoping MvG gets the start haha
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#837 » by 5DOM » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:32 pm

MountainDrew wrote:
5DOM wrote:btw McEachran's off to Vitesse. Hopefully it works out


Haven't seen this confirmed anywhere, but it's looking likely.

Really hoping MvG gets the start haha


He confirmed on his twitter account that he's off to Holland.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#838 » by treiz » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:56 pm

5DOM wrote:Can't see Salah starting even if he's the most-ready physically. Think we'll see Torres or Azpi out on the right wing before Salah. Despite Jose's comments, I think we'll see a strong lineup because it's the first game.

btw McEachran's off to Vitesse. Hopefully it works out


I'm of the opinion he can't leave Luis out too, I'm guessing it's gonna be Dave forward
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#839 » by fatlever » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:33 pm

really hate having to wait until monday for our 1st game. its bad enough to have to wait two days after the start to see your team play, but for it to fall on a monday in the middle of work is just the ultimate kick in the balls. now have to decide between cheating at work and following twitter and the score or going into a media blackout at work and watching on dvr and praying none of the idiots i work with ruin the blackout by mentioning the game.
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Re: Official Chelsea FC Thread 

Post#840 » by fatlever » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:43 pm

best position battles heading into the season?

cech vs courtois - 1st choice keeper
azpi vs ivan - 1st choice right back
azpi vs luis - 1st choice left back
ivan vs cahill - partner next to terry
mikel vs mvg vs ramires - 3rd choice in central mid (behind matic and fabregas)
schurrle vs willian vs ramires vs salah - 1st choice right wing
drogba vs torres - 2nd choice striker

spots that seem locked already
terry - 1st choice cb on left side
matic and fabregas - 1st choice central mid
hazard - 1st choice left wig
oscar - 1st choice #10
costa - 1st choice striker

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