Extension offer for Butler thought

[sco]

Allow me to make a key point here. Jimmy is a SF. He may be called SG because the league says that position exists and he will guard SG's, but on offense, he is a stereotypical SF. On teams that focus on offense, there is a difference. SG's are secondary ball handlers and are called upon to create their own shots. Not Jimmy. If we are starting Doug this year, he will be much more the "SG" than Jimmy.

[Zane]

I've thought about this, but what SG is worth Jimmy and Taj (and is also available)?

Here is the top 20 SGs, as per ESPN, in terms of PPG.

James Harden
DeMar DeRozan
Goran Dragic
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Jamal Crawford
Klay Thompson
Arron Afflalo
Bradley Beal
Wesley Matthews
Gordon Hayward
Dion Waiters
Gerald Green
Joe Johnson
Jodie Meeks
Eric Gordon
J.R. Smith
Trevor Ariza
Gerald Henderson
Lance Stephenson

Of that list, the ones i've bolded are those i'd trae Butler & Taj for.

Basically, the SG market is piss poor and none of these guys are worth both Taj & Butler, and in many cases, i wouldn't even give up Taj alone for these guys.

The only other one that I would consider is Wesley Matthews but even then, it would completely depend on the other returning pieces. No point in trading Taj if we do not get a back up defensive-minded center.

[Zane]

Also Klay is far from overrated. He hit 200+ 3's for the past 2 seasons. He has a spot on almost any team in the league.

[Proven_Winner]

Allow me to make a key point here. Jimmy is a SF. He may be called SG because the league says that position exists and he will guard SG's, but on offense, he is a stereotypical SF. On teams that focus on offense, there is a difference. SG's are secondary ball handlers and are called upon to create their own shots. Not Jimmy. If we are starting Doug this year, he will be much more the "SG" than Jimmy.

That doesn't matter in Thib's system. He's just looked at as a wing.

[-Illmatic-]

[SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]


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[cubd8]

We have not heard any news on this but I suspect an offer will be made. Barring trade we are locked into Rose McDermott Snell Gasol Gibson Noah Mirotic for at least next couple years. I would think if they could lock Butler at a 4/32 type deal they would. Then a backup scoring PG/SG via draft or free agency would be about only need moving forward.

I need to see offensive improvement this upcoming season before I lock him into a multi-year deal. At this point, I think his closer, with one more subpar offensive season, to being Thabo Sefalosha (who actually did get a couple years from Atlanta).

[dice]

Allow me to make a key point here. Jimmy is a SF. He may be called SG because the league says that position exists and he will guard SG's, but on offense, he is a stereotypical SF. On teams that focus on offense, there is a difference. SG's are secondary ball handlers and are called upon to create their own shots. Not Jimmy. If we are starting Doug this year, he will be much more the "SG" than Jimmy.

it's not a key point, because in thibs's offense SG and SF are interchangeable

[dice]

solid offense and elite defense is worth way more than 8 mil

jimmy butler playing off derrick rose and hitting close to 40% of his 3s is a wet dream

If he's getting paid 10-12 mill a year, he needs to show more to his offense then just spotting up for 3. He needs to show that he's capable of being a 3rd option and be able to give you about 16 efficient points.

Trevor Ariza just got 8 mil a year being a 40%% behind the arc and playing great defense and people thought that was overpaying.

-ariza just turned 29
-i don't recall many people thinking 8 mil for ariza is too much
-i don't think he's the defender jimmy is
-career per 36: ariza 13p jimmy 12p

[RedBulls23]

solid offense and elite defense is worth way more than 8 mil

jimmy butler playing off derrick rose and hitting close to 40% of his 3s is a wet dream

If he's getting paid 10-12 mill a year, he needs to show more to his offense then just spotting up for 3. He needs to show that he's capable of being a 3rd option and be able to give you about 16 efficient points.

Trevor Ariza just got 8 mil a year being a 40%% behind the arc and playing great defense and people thought that was overpaying.

-ariza just turned 29
-i don't recall many people thinking 8 mil for ariza is too much
-i don't think he's the defender jimmy is
-career per 36: ariza 13p jimmy 12p

I guess it would be interesting seeing how their Synergy numbers look. Ariza had a better on/off court for defense, but jimmy has a slight higher dws (.9 higher). I think they are comparable.

My point is that if the best Jimmy is that a 38% 3 Pt shooter and very good defender which is what Ariza is, he would be worth the same.

Paying a perimeter player 10-12 mil a year when he likely would be the 4th or 5th best starter is a bit ridiculous. I could understand if he was a big and a rim protector, but he's not. It would be a mistake to give Jimmy that much money without showing he can do more offensively.

[Cliff Levingston]

Allow me to make a key point here. Jimmy is a SF. He may be called SG because the league says that position exists and he will guard SG's, but on offense, he is a stereotypical SF. On teams that focus on offense, there is a difference. SG's are secondary ball handlers and are called upon to create their own shots. Not Jimmy. If we are starting Doug this year, he will be much more the "SG" than Jimmy.

That's not a key point, it's not even accurate. The idea of "point" guard, "shooting" guard and "small" forward are antiquated. All that matter is that you can fulfill the duties that the team's offense and defense calls for.

That said, the point that Jimmy isn't that secondary ball-handler and creator definitely means that he's worth less but doesn't make him any more of a 3 than a 2.

[vvgotgame19]

This is the bad thing about Butler. We need him to improve upon his offense, but if he does how are we gonna be able to keep him? He's gonna get paid a good amount if he can put up similar numbers to this year, but on better efficiency, which is extremely doable. I love me some Buckets and think he's a key piece especially next to McDermott who will be an average defender at best. I'm afraid we're gonna lose him without much return. Who knows tho, maybe if we win enough JR would be willing to pay for a winner.

[dice]

If he's getting paid 10-12 mill a year, he needs to show more to his offense then just spotting up for 3. He needs to show that he's capable of being a 3rd option and be able to give you about 16 efficient points.

Trevor Ariza just got 8 mil a year being a 40%% behind the arc and playing great defense and people thought that was overpaying.

-ariza just turned 29
-i don't recall many people thinking 8 mil for ariza is too much
-i don't think he's the defender jimmy is
-career per 36: ariza 13p jimmy 12p

I guess it would be interesting seeing how their Synergy numbers look. Ariza had a better on/off court for defense, but jimmy has a slight higher dws (.9 higher). I think they are comparable.

My point is that if the best Jimmy is that a 38% 3 Pt shooter and very good defender which is what Ariza is, he would be worth the same.

Paying a perimeter player 10-12 mil a year when he likely would be the 4th or 5th best starter is a bit ridiculous. I could understand if he was a big and a rim protector, but he's not. It would be a mistake to give Jimmy that much money without showing he can do more offensively.

jimmy would definitely be our third best starter if hitting his 3s. and again, he's younger than ariza

[RedBulls23]

-ariza just turned 29
-i don't recall many people thinking 8 mil for ariza is too much
-i don't think he's the defender jimmy is
-career per 36: ariza 13p jimmy 12p

I guess it would be interesting seeing how their Synergy numbers look. Ariza had a better on/off court for defense, but jimmy has a slight higher dws (.9 higher). I think they are comparable.

My point is that if the best Jimmy is that a 38% 3 Pt shooter and very good defender which is what Ariza is, he would be worth the same.

Paying a perimeter player 10-12 mil a year when he likely would be the 4th or 5th best starter is a bit ridiculous. I could understand if he was a big and a rim protector, but he's not. It would be a mistake to give Jimmy that much money without showing he can do more offensively.

jimmy would definitely be our third best starter if hitting his 3s. and again, he's younger than ariza

Maybe I should have said 4th or 5th best player.

Rose, Noah, Taj and Gasol would be better than Jimmy.

The age thing only matters if Jimmy is able to develop more of his game. If he stays the same player, then the point is moot. Which backs up my claim that he would have to develop even more to be worth that coin.

[BuffaloBull]

All I'm saying is that if you take and make as many 3's as he does, your TS should be elite. Klay is overrated as well.

Like I said, that position is just so weak right now that it's a testament to why even a guy like Jimmy Butler is being talked about getting 8+ million a year.

Getting to the line will also drive your TS% up.

Thompson, Waiters & Beal are not really getting to the line much.

Klay - 2.3 FTA
Beal - 2.6 FTA
Waiters - 3.4 FTA

That's not a lot, and it feeds into the theory that they're not going to impact your stat sheet outside of shooting.

That's all well and good, and we need all that stuff, but it sure speaks volumes about the piss poor competition at SG.

With Kobe, Allen, Carter, Manu & Wade are on the decline, and with Iverson & McGrady already out of the league, it has highlighted how weak the league really is there.

To that point, our weakness at SG should take this into account, and who knows, JB may actually be one of the better SGs in the game soon. He won't be elite, but top 6-10 isn't out of the question either.

Wings are players, more than anyone, where you have to look at how they are getting their points and PER to effectively evaluate them.

Some guys (Harden, Prime Wade) have the skillset and scheme designed for them to slash and run pick and roll 12+ times a game. Those guys are going to get big bumps in PER, because of both the volume and increased FTA they get.

A guy who is running routes through the D and shooting from the outside (Boston Ray Allen) typically isn't going to look as good: those shots generate less foul shots, they are almost never in position to offensive rebound, and are often moving sideways or backwards coming off screens, instead of attacking. Basically, one set of players is getting rewarded because of the scheme and the other is getting penalized.

So I think it's hard to compare Beal and Thompson with Jimmy because they are much different offensive players. Jimmy really has a great skillset for that stereotypically low-volume, high energy "3" set: he'll park out in the corners, slash hard off of secondary motion, get the greenlight to pursue o boards, even post up opportunistically: he was basically doing this his second year, and really thrived in that limited role. Last year, the team needed more from him, and instead of playing off of Deng and Marco, he had to generate more of his own stuff, and struggled. But with Rose back, hopefully, he should be able to play off the opportunities Rose generates and that should help him a ton, especially if he can get his shot back to where it was at the end of 12-13.

[TheStig]

Also Klay is far from overrated. He hit 200+ 3's for the past 2 seasons. He has a spot on almost any team in the league.

Klay is an elite 3 and D guy. But thats not a max player when you have quality SG's in the league. Would you take a prime McGrady, Carter, Manu, Kobe, AI, Wade , Allen,or Klay? I'd rank Klay last out of that group.

[NecessaryEvil]

I never said he was done, only that he was overrated. Claiming he will be the best SG in the league is overrating him, especially when his PER & TS mirror Dion Waiters.

He did not dominate in the playoffs against the Bulls. He was good, but not dominant. Against Indiana, he was back under .500 in terms of TS%.

No, i don't think Taj & Butler would nab a superstar, but given the crap that is available at the SG position, i would rather hold on to these two than moving them for 1 guy who will have less impact for the team.

So far, he is putting in one of the best playoff performances for a 20-year-old in NBA history. According to John Hollinger’s Game Score, a rough measure of a player’s productivity for a single game, Beal already has three of the highest scores among the top 15 and two in the top 10, including the second-best overall

The 20-year-old scored a game-high 25 points on 8-for-18 shooting from the field (3 for 5 from three-point range) and 6-for-9 shooting from the free throw line. Beal also registered seven assists and five steals.

“Bradley Beal’s a superstar in this league,” Pacers guard Paul George said after the defeat. “He’s on the rise.”

Bradley Beal has been clutch all season long and the Wizards have relied on him down the stretch in the past. His ability to create shots for himself and find open shots from the perimeter left Chicago’s elite defense in disarray

I don't expect perfect TS, PER and all that non-sense in the playoffs from a 20 year old kid. He was simply superb. Overrated isn't how I would describe Bradley Beal, of all SG's. Only people I seem to see that think he's overrated are on this board. He's a phenomenal young player with a great head on his shoulders and he's only going to get better.

D-Rose & Beal would be the best backcourt in the league, by far, BY FAR.

[Alswank87]

He should get a contract identical to Thabo sefolosha's. Both are lock down defenders, both have broken jump shots, both are about the same height and do the same things.

[kyrv]

Allow me to make a key point here. Jimmy is a SF. He may be called SG because the league says that position exists and he will guard SG's, but on offense, he is a stereotypical SF. On teams that focus on offense, there is a difference. SG's are secondary ball handlers and are called upon to create their own shots. Not Jimmy. If we are starting Doug this year, he will be much more the "SG" than Jimmy.

it's not a key point, because in thibs's offense SG and SF are interchangeable

Thibs insists they are and for the most part they seem to be.

On Butler, as has been commented on previously, the FA season bodes very well for Butler and Dougie (and even Snell to battle for a rotation spot). Reading the tea leaves, the wing jobs are theirs for the taking, both now and for the future.

[kyrv]

He should get a contract identical to Thabo sefolosha's.

Don't agree, but that's not how it works anyway.

Both are lock down defenders,

Neither are lock down defenders.

both have broken jump shots, both are about the same height and do the same things.

Well I'll just reiterate, not how it works. Sometimes definitely other contracts are used as a basis in contract discussions, but it's not really likely in this case, as much as you want to pretend they are such similar players.

[PaKii94]

If he's getting paid 10-12 mill a year, he needs to show more to his offense then just spotting up for 3. He needs to show that he's capable of being a 3rd option and be able to give you about 16 efficient points.

Trevor Ariza just got 8 mil a year being a 40%% behind the arc and playing great defense and people thought that was overpaying.

-ariza just turned 29
-i don't recall many people thinking 8 mil for ariza is too much
-i don't think he's the defender jimmy is
-career per 36: ariza 13p jimmy 12p

I guess it would be interesting seeing how their Synergy numbers look. Ariza had a better on/off court for defense, but jimmy has a slight higher dws (.9 higher). I think they are comparable.

My point is that if the best Jimmy is that a 38% 3 Pt shooter and very good defender which is what Ariza is, he would be worth the same.

Paying a perimeter player 10-12 mil a year when he likely would be the 4th or 5th best starter is a bit ridiculous. I could understand if he was a big and a rim protector, but he's not. It would be a mistake to give Jimmy that much money without showing he can do more offensively.

Ariza had a better on/off because he was a defender on a weaker defensive team. It speaks to JImmy's defensive abilities to be able to average higher DWS even tho he was on one of the top defensive teams.

Ariza held SG/SF to a PER of 12.1/15.6, Jimmy held them to a PER of 11.0/10.1 also, if you are looking at offense, I think Jimmy can step it up but Ariza was assisted on 76% and Jimmy was at 69%