The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[SunsFanSSOL]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.

What you are saying, even if the numbers arent exactly accurate, plays a big factor indeed.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I'm not white, nor black… I'm half spanish/half asian decent, so to me, in all honesty and by nature, I don’t care which one I choose of the above (black or white equal star).
But with that said, every time I play NBA 2K or NBA Live in the past or even Soccer games, or any type of games that allows me to create a character… I always create a "half-breed" looking character lol.
Or in NBA2K14's case, I made a white star player who happens to be an elite athlete and a black star player who happens to be a sharp shooter and relies on silky smooth game instead… just to be impartial and non-stereotype.

But to relate that to Bledsoe… maybe that’s how he sees Phoenix also…. its still doesn’t stop me from wanting to live there though. I would move there in a second.

I hope other stars dont think like Bledsoe, if it is indeed true that he doesnt want to live in Phoenix due to the lack of "black" people etc.

What a bunch of crap. The biggest prejudice of all is generalizing a whole city or message board with no basis in fact whatsoever. Go away.

Calling white people racists because they are white is just another form if racism. I see no such thing on this board.

Just the fact he brings up a persons race for no reason than writes up a lengthy opinion on race, just shows he is racist. Would be much easier to just say he hates white people than writing a book on how phx is a white person city.

Who cares about a persons skin color! No one cares what color skin color is. Barkley could have been governor of phoenix/Arizona if he wanted to. Just shows skin color doesn't matter.

Look we get it, he hates white people. Let's move on. Discussion is done.

I'm here to talk about a sport. No football games are on and I analyzed the crap out of the cards-texans game. Now I want to talk about the suns.

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I didn't get the impression at all that he "hates white people" and at no point did he call white people racist, those words were just put in his mouth. I'm a white guy who's not from Arizona, and the public perception of the state is downright awful. As Frank Lee mentioned above, there have been countless controversies about the state being intolerant. I understand it may be more difficult to understand if you live in the state, but from an outside perspective, which I believe 1UPZ was speaking from, Arizona doesn't look too attractive if you're not white. Of course, some of this bad reputation is a misconception, but there's also a lot of truth to it too.

He wasn't calling white people racist, and his observation about some fans preferring a white player, over a black player of the same caliber, is factually supported. ESPN even wrote and article about LeBron's 2010 Decision, Race and Public Perception: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commenta ... son/101005. NPR also discussed whether white fans feel that they need a white NBA superstar to root for: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... e-nba-star

I don't think he's being racist by saying that, because it's true. A lot of the time, fans are fans of someone who they feel they can relate to. Some Caucasian fans may find some Caucasian players more easily relatable, and some African-American fans may find some African-American players more relatable. This is especially evident in the case of Jeremy Lin, who has such a large fan base simply for his ethnicity, rather than his play. Look at the Jazz and Celtics teams a few decades ago, predominately white roster's in order to cater to their prime demographic in their fans. The Suns even did this too in the early 70's as Frank mentioned. It's not racist to point out that race players a factor in these things, it's racist to ignore it.

[jcsunsfan]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.....

at least you lit the fuse before you dropped the bomb...

but I am going to agree with you. Not so much the 'vibe part' but more so with what SunsFan said.

The demographic discussion, the perceived weirdly/mildly racist wacko righty populace in AZ... yes you 'Zonies', the rest of the country just get the skewed view of you. And the lunacy jumps from headline to headline. Going back to the MLKing day crap, Fife Smyington, The Brewer battle with Obama, CrazyAss McCain, Sherrif Joe.... its easy for an outsider to be leery of that hot desert sun. It DOES SOMETHING to people.

Furthermore, it seems the Suns have always sought good white guys to fit their blue haired 'good white guy' season ticket fan base. I don't know what it is like now, but quite a few moons ago when I went to 30+ games per, the fan base/average age seemed like it was 60 and it mirrored AZ's natural demographics. The Madhouse was anything but mad and probably closer to senile on some nights. Shoot, they used to have a live dixieland band playing every home game (the Desert City 6... Could there be anything 'Whiter'?) But hey, is there anything wrong with that? Somewhat catering to your fan base? Colonjello knew what he was doing.

Westphal, Buse, Adams, Cook, Awtrey, Kramer, Robey, Bratz, Erickson, Riley (yes, Pat once was a Sun) I recall on more than one occasion when we'd have 5 pasties on the court.... you could see the crowd slowly realizing it...."1...2...3....4... CALL A TIME OUT MacLEOD" ... heck, sometimes I think he was counting too. The 'good white guy' syndrome was evident....And the points made in the recent posts above about AZ/Phnx being a non minority destination have validity. At least likely in the eyes of players. You guys in AZ can't shake the label as long as the press keeps being fed tasty topics of racial tension.

As far as the obvious Racially charged up responses here.... just deal with it. Its gets very tiring when a simple discussion gets labeled as offensively racial. Am I prejudiced ? Sure, at people who are constantly playing Race Cop. We live in an overly sensitive environment now. Open discussion is needed, and without the 'Racist Tag' placed on every contributor.


sssssssss........ BOOM

PS...

There will be some awkward discussions going forward. Oh and once again, this isn't the forum or thread for it...

Why not ? we have little to talk about now, and this seems like as good of a reason why Bledsoak is balking as any

Oh that is rich. Name every white player-even scrubs-as evidence of Phoenix racism. Again it's the same old thing call someone racist because they are white, or old, or conservative. The Lakers must be racist because of Jerry West and Kurt Rambis. The Celtics because of McHale and Bird.

Pat Riley? Really? Nonsense. We want people who can play. It would really be nice if they are good citizens too. Give me 100 Grant Hills, Larry Fitzgeralds and Goran Dragics. I don't care the color if their skin. I care about the quality of their play and the content of their character. I deeply resent people calling me (and others) racist just because they admittedly are and assume everyone must be just like them.

[NaturalBuns]

Just start gerald green at the 3 for those three games.

The bench will be fine it has IT a score first PG and Warren.

[RunDogGun]

I have to love the use (or should I say useless?) of pictures, that show completely different timing in one's shot.

And oddly VC( who is seen guarding Tolliver, who played sf most of the time in Char) guarded Frye better than many, and it seemed that teams figured out that they could put a wing on Frye, and just run him off the three. This tactic was more effective than I thought it would be, and then they exploited it on the other end, when Frye would have to guard that wing.

As far as the race stuff....

It would be nice to hear more about guys training right now than the Bledsoe saga.

[Sun Scorched]

I think Tolliver will surprise some. I mean, let's be honest, he's not going to shoot worse in PHX. Everyone sees their stats spike here. So worst case he keeps up his shooting %'s from last year - best case? Perhaps he improves some.

Plus, I would encourage you to look at some of the advanced stats for Tolliver - because I promise you the front office did significantly more work doing this than anyone on this board has - and notice the following:

Anthony Tolliver
TS%: .605
eFG%: .586
3p%: .413
WSp48: .117

Channing Frye
TS%: .555
eFG%: .535
3p%: .370
WSp48: .109

Also, for those interested, Tolliver was assisted on 100% of his shots and he shot 80.5% of his FGs from beyond the arc. His corner 3p% was 39%, indicating he shot better at the top of the arc, much like Frye.

Interestingly, Channing Frye only made 29.3% of his corner threes - so, in addition to being better at every advanced metric, Tolliver is also a substantially better shooter from the corner.

[Superbone]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.


Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.


This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

I don't know Tollivers shot really, but they are in completely different parts of their shot there. Frye is about to release and Tolliver is just finishing his backward motion. Like I said, it does look like his shot is less effective, but your pictures are not a good indication of that.

Right. If Tolliver released the ball at that point, he'd block his own shot with his left hand.

[Sunsdeuce]

I have to love the use (or should I say useless?) of pictures, that show completely different timing in one's shot.

And oddly VC( who is seen guarding Tolliver, who played sf most of the time in Char) guarded Frye better than many, and it seemed that teams figured out that they could put a wing on Frye, and just run him off the three. This tactic was more effective than I thought it would be, and then they exploited it on the other end, when Frye would have to guard that wing.

As far as the race stuff....

It would be nice to hear more about guys training right now than the Bledsoe saga.

Really?! Reaallllyy?! Once again starting fights, as usual.

Is it really that hard for you to write a subjective argument? It's always a sarcastic comment from you. Your always fighting with someone here. And it all starts with your usual sarcastic hateful directed comments. But I guess that is what makes you tick. More power to you.



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[Sunsdeuce]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.


Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.


This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

I don't know Tollivers shot really, but they are in completely different parts of their shot there. Frye is about to release and Tolliver is just finishing his backward motion. Like I said, it does look like his shot is less effective, but your pictures are not a good indication of that.

Right. If Tolliver released the ball at that point, he'd block his own shot with his left hand.

Wish I knew how to make gifs to better illustrate this.


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[bwgood77]

Look, what I'm about to say may not go down well, but since we're all honest here, I will say it anyways.

What you are saying, even if the numbers arent exactly accurate, plays a big factor indeed.

Even most Suns forums, in particular here in RealGM, I get that vibe… what vibe?
The vibe that most/some prefer a "white" star over a "black" or "non-white" star…
I feel that if there was 2 Lebron talent/production type players, 1 is white and 1 is black, exactly same attitude, exactly same manners etc… except their looks.
Most (some) here will make a preference and choose the "white" version… again, this is just the vibe I get here. It could be just be me, but its mainly the context of people's opinions and posts about players in the last 7-8 years since I've been here.

Phoenix is a "white" biased town, in my head anyways.

I'm not white, nor black… I'm half spanish/half asian decent, so to me, in all honesty and by nature, I don’t care which one I choose of the above (black or white equal star).
But with that said, every time I play NBA 2K or NBA Live in the past or even Soccer games, or any type of games that allows me to create a character… I always create a "half-breed" looking character lol.
Or in NBA2K14's case, I made a white star player who happens to be an elite athlete and a black star player who happens to be a sharp shooter and relies on silky smooth game instead… just to be impartial and non-stereotype.

But to relate that to Bledsoe… maybe that’s how he sees Phoenix also…. its still doesn’t stop me from wanting to live there though. I would move there in a second.

I hope other stars dont think like Bledsoe, if it is indeed true that he doesnt want to live in Phoenix due to the lack of "black" people etc.

I don't get that vibe at all. I'm white, and my favorite player ever is KJ. I never liked Nash quite as much. So many people love Barkley. Chambers wasn't exactly a fan favorite, even though he was very good at the time. People liked Hornacek and Majerle, but I think that was more because of their grittiness and hustle than being white.

What I will say though, is that most people in general, are probably going to like the non-diva types. That can turn some people off. Having too much swagger can be really off putting. I know some like it, but I'd say the majority don't.

Fewer white guys may exhibit that type of behavior for whatever reason, but I think that is the trait that may make a difference. People love a guy like Durant a lot more than a guy like Kobe or Wade in general.

Edit: After reading a few more posts about people's perception of AZ outside of the state, and I agree, it is awful. Personally I've lived in Texas AND been in Oklahoma a bunch and those places feel much more racist than Arizona from personally living in them. Just by watching how people are treated.

But when people talk about other states, AZ is perceived as racist, and even though I don't think the majority of the public feels that way, we always seem to have idiots in charge doing things to make the nation get that perception, whether it be Even Meachem and his MLK stuff, or trying to have extra strict border laws, or Arapaio or whatever the case may be.

That could certainly play some sort of part in some FA's thoughts...that they don't want to play in a state that is perceived as racist....I mean look at how disgusted the Clippers players were. Luckily Sarver has our team wearing Los Suns and trying to quash that notion and prove that he is anything but racist, but perceptions are tough to change.

[bwgood77]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.


Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.


This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

But the most important thing is drawing the defender out of the paint in the first place. If he isn't open, he won't get the ball. And your argument would seem to be backed up by their 3pt %s, and Tolliver's was higher.

[SideSwipe]

It would seem to me that the words "race" and "culture" are often misunderstood in their use. Races are all equal, but every race may have some cultural elements that are not considered good by many people of all races. Every race may have it. It is wrong to assume that everyone who is white is a redneck, or everyone who is black is a gang-banger, or everyone who is Asian is into turbocharged Honda's, these are cultural elements that many people from each different race are associated with. It is not wrong to dislike those cultural elements if you so choose. some will try to discount it as racism, but that is incorrect.

While I don't agree with the assessment on the PHX area as it being attributed to race, I do subscribe to the fact that not everyone will like the culture in PHX. We do things a little differently in PHX. We have a car-based culture, we don't have as big of a singles scene as some other large cities, and what is there may not be to everyone's liking. These are all cultural elements. Oh and by the way it is HOT here.

And that's all I have to say about that (Forrest Gump voice)

[Sunsdeuce]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.

Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.

This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

But the most important thing is drawing the defender out of the paint in the first place. If he isn't open, he won't get the ball. And your argument would seem to be backed up by their 3pt %s, and Tolliver's was higher.

That's the biggest headache that opposing coaches had with frye. He was basically a 7 footer who could shoot threes. Like a poor mans dirk. While frye isn't known as an outstanding defender, he was a capable defender. Dirk isn't an outstanding defender but capable.

Basically 7 footers who can shoot threes are very valuable.


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[Zelaznyrules]

Here is why tolliver is not going to be as effective as frye in our system. Pay close attention to the release.

Fryes shoot was high and quick. Notice the height and how the ball is away from the defender. Also the ball is away from his body during the shooting motion. Also notice the off hand is on the side of the ball. This allows for quicker shot preparation. Thus quicker release. Very difficult to defend.

Now tolliver has a shot that comes out from his body. His shot release is closer to the ground. His off hand is in front of the ball. This means more time in the preparation of the shot. Much easier to guard. If the defender is committed, it is not a difficult shot to guard.

This is what stats don't tell you. This is why game film is more important than stats.

But the most important thing is drawing the defender out of the paint in the first place. If he isn't open, he won't get the ball. And your argument would seem to be backed up by their 3pt %s, and Tolliver's was higher.

That's the biggest headache that opposing coaches had with frye. He was basically a 7 footer who could shoot threes. Like a poor mans dirk. While frye isn't known as an outstanding defender, he was a capable defender. Dirk isn't an outstanding defender but capable.

Basically 7 footers who can shoot threes are very valuable.

Historically Frye has been a very weak defender. But last year he was actually pretty good IMO. His poor rebounding takes him down a notch and his inability to hold his position against certain kind of bigs was also an issue but he was a very good help defender last season. Also, he was quite effective on the perimeter and while his post defense was below average, it was far improved from earlier years. All told, despite his obvious weaknesses, he typically guarded his position much better than his opponents guarded him IMO.

[RunDogGun]

I have to love the use (or should I say useless?) of pictures, that show completely different timing in one's shot.

And oddly VC( who is seen guarding Tolliver, who played sf most of the time in Char) guarded Frye better than many, and it seemed that teams figured out that they could put a wing on Frye, and just run him off the three. This tactic was more effective than I thought it would be, and then they exploited it on the other end, when Frye would have to guard that wing.

As far as the race stuff....

It would be nice to hear more about guys training right now than the Bledsoe saga.

Really?! Reaallllyy?! Once again starting fights, as usual.

Is it really that hard for you to write a subjective argument? It's always a sarcastic comment from you. Your always fighting with someone here. And it all starts with your usual sarcastic hateful directed comments. But I guess that is what makes you tick. More power to you.



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I should have logged in before reading. Where am I starting fights? I didn't mentioned you, I mentioned the pictures, and how useless they were as evidence because of where the release was.

I was told by Kerrsed to argue the posts not the person, which I did. If you don't like it, either stop posting stuff that is ridiculous, or ask people to stop quoting you.

Oh, and it's "you're always" not "your always".

[aIvin adams]

hey suns fans

each moment we spend fighting with each other

is a moment wasted when we could be hating on Laker fans.

come on guys.

whether the issue is release points, rosters, or race: we are all one mind and one heart when it comes time to BEAT LA.

(except for John Vancouver...)

[Sunsdeuce]

hey suns fans

each moment we spend fighting with each other

is a moment wasted when we could be hating on Laker fans.

come on guys.

whether the issue is release points, rosters, or race: we are all one mind and one heart when it comes time to BEAT LA.

(except for John Vancouver...)

What's the deal with john?


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[Frank Lee]

Oh that is rich. Name every white player-even scrubs-as evidence of Phoenix racism. ........

LOL.... was merely illustrating the ability to field a line up of 'Caspers' and suggested the desire at times to do so. Like it or not, 2 plus 2 does equal 4. Not saying the franchise is racist at all. But no lying that up to the late 70s we were one of the few teams that had half a roster of those(we) pale faced devils.

[kingstyyyle]

hey suns fans

each moment we spend fighting with each other

is a moment wasted when we could be hating on Laker fans.

come on guys.

whether the issue is release points, rosters, or race: we are all one mind and one heart when it comes time to BEAT LA.

(except for John Vancouver...)

What's the deal with john?


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Johns hanging out with Benedict Arnold on the Lakers board

[Frank Lee]

hey suns fans

each moment we spend fighting with each other

is a moment wasted when we could be hating on Laker fans.

come on guys.

whether the issue is release points, rosters, or race: we are all one mind and one heart when it comes time to BEAT LA.

(except for John Vancouver...)

What's the deal with john?


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Johns hanging out with Benedict Arnold on the Lakers board

Come on now.... JohnnyVC is a Nash fan.... hell, he jumped ship to get here. We can cut a little slack his way

[Sunsdeuce]

Oh that is rich. Name every white player-even scrubs-as evidence of Phoenix racism. ........

LOL.... was merely illustrating the ability to field a line up of 'Caspers' and suggested the desire at times to do so. Like it or not, 2 plus 2 does equal 4. Not saying the franchise is racist at all. But no lying that up to the late 70s we were one of the few teams that had half a roster of those(we) pale faced devils.

I forgot why were even talking about this.




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