Great article on Waiters trade value

[Dupp]

What's your obsession with our team anyway? Waiters is gonna be really good and beal is gonna be better, no big deal.

It's just that waiters is closer than people give him credit for. Statistically they are a pretty close considering the praise beal gets and the hate dion gets.
Of course beals advanced stats like +\- , win shares etc are better than waiters. Beal played on a good team last season while ours was pathetic. I'd be surprised if anyone on our team did well in those areas.

As for waiters ts%, it definitely needs a good spike up. His free throw shooting is abysmal so I really hope he worked on that this off season.

Just out of curiosity since you brought it up what's the difference in waiters Ts% and points per shot?

[SmoothKobra]

Okay cool, lets just analyze all players with raw stats not adjusted for pace or anything. My work here is done, I'm gonna go watch MCW highlight videos for the next 3 hours because apparently I have the second coming of Magic Johnson on my roster now.

I've stated facts. I would like you to show me facts on why Beal is better? Since that site you posted also claim that most of advance stats are estimated that don't count.

I gave you facts using advanced statistics, which although are estimates, are considered better measures than raw stats. That's why people came up with them. If you refuse to entertain advanced statistics in an argument I suggest you find another website ballboy.

Beal is in no way, shape, or form clearly better than Waiters. They are relatively equal, but Waiters is far superior in his ability to get to the rim and create off of the bounce. Beal is still assisted on a significant portion of his makes, which is the mark of a career role player, though he can be a pretty good one. Waiters, with the right development, can be an all-star for multiple years.

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2014/08/05/ ... ade-value/

[Mr Sixer]

What's your obsession with our team anyway? Waiters is gonna be really good and beal is gonna be better, no big deal.

It's just that waiters is closer than people give him credit for. Statistically they are a pretty close considering the praise beal gets and the hate dion gets.
Of course beals advanced stats like +\- , win shares etc are better than waiters. Beal played on a good team last season while ours was pathetic. I'd be surprised if anyone on our team did well in those areas.

As for waiters ts%, it definitely needs a good spike up. His free throw shooting is abysmal so I really hope he worked on that this off season.

Just out of curiosity since you brought it up what's the difference in waiters Ts% and points per shot?

How good your team is does not affect those stats, in fact its the opposite because as you can see Kevin Love is at the top of a lot of those lists and it is the main reason why people argue that he is a top 5/ definitely top 10 player in the league even though his team has never made the playoffs.

Your question about TS and points per shot doesn't really relate to anything. One of your members was trying to say that Waiters shot a higher fg% so he is indeed a better shooter. I pointed out that this is because Beal shoots more 3s, which is statistically a lower percentage shot, which would explain the reason for this, and TS or EFG is a better statistic to use that would ignore these differences. He then came back saying I was trolling and using statistical hyperbole to make my points (don't really know what that means) and said I was making up fake criteria to rate them as players like the fact that 3 pointers are more efficient shots than mid-ranged 2s. I then told him to look up average points per shot from different parts of the court and it would be obvious that mid-range 2s are the lowest in this regard, and 3s are near the top.

[improvisor]

What's your obsession with our team anyway? Waiters is gonna be really good and beal is gonna be better, no big deal.

It's just that waiters is closer than people give him credit for. Statistically they are a pretty close considering the praise beal gets and the hate dion gets.
Of course beals advanced stats like +\- , win shares etc are better than waiters. Beal played on a good team last season while ours was pathetic. I'd be surprised if anyone on our team did well in those areas.

As for waiters ts%, it definitely needs a good spike up. His free throw shooting is abysmal so I really hope he worked on that this off season.

Just out of curiosity since you brought it up what's the difference in waiters Ts% and points per shot?

How good your team is does not affect those stats, in fact its the opposite because as you can see Kevin Love is at the top of a lot of those lists and it is the main reason why people argue that he is a top 5/ definitely top 10 player in the league even though his team has never made the playoffs.

Your question about TS and points per shot doesn't really relate to anything. One of your members was trying to say that [b]Waiters shot a higher fg% so he is indeed a better shooter.[\b] I pointed out that this is because Beal shoots more 3s, which is statistically a lower percentage shot, which would explain the reason for this, and TS or EFG is a better statistic to use that would ignore these differences. He then came back saying I was trolling and using statistical hyperbole to make my points (don't really know what that means) and said I was making up fake criteria to rate them as players like the fact that 3 pointers are more efficient shots than mid-ranged 2s. I then told him to look up average points per shot from different parts of the court and it would be obvious that mid-range 2s are the lowest in this regard, and 3s are near the top.

a bit more efficient on offense not a better shooter. Never said that nor did anyone else. Overall fg% shows how efficient a player is at making buckets. Beal might be better but to me I still rather have Waiters that is still decent at shooting but has other intangibles that are better or at least comparable to beal with improving defense.

The whole point is both players are very close in value in my book.

[Dupp]

What's your obsession with our team anyway? Waiters is gonna be really good and beal is gonna be better, no big deal.

It's just that waiters is closer than people give him credit for. Statistically they are a pretty close considering the praise beal gets and the hate dion gets.
Of course beals advanced stats like +\- , win shares etc are better than waiters. Beal played on a good team last season while ours was pathetic. I'd be surprised if anyone on our team did well in those areas.

As for waiters ts%, it definitely needs a good spike up. His free throw shooting is abysmal so I really hope he worked on that this off season.

Just out of curiosity since you brought it up what's the difference in waiters Ts% and points per shot?

How good your team is does not affect those stats, in fact its the opposite because as you can see Kevin Love is at the top of a lot of those lists and it is the main reason why people argue that he is a top 5/ definitely top 10 player in the league even though his team has never made the playoffs.

Your question about TS and points per shot doesn't really relate to anything. One of your members was trying to say that Waiters shot a higher fg% so he is indeed a better shooter. I pointed out that this is because Beal shoots more 3s, which is statistically a lower percentage shot, which would explain the reason for this, and TS or EFG is a better statistic to use that would ignore these differences. He then came back saying I was trolling and using statistical hyperbole to make my points (don't really know what that means) and said I was making up fake criteria to rate them as players like the fact that 3 pointers are more efficient shots than mid-ranged 2s. I then told him to look up average points per shot from different parts of the court and it would be obvious that mid-range 2s are the lowest in this regard, and 3s are near the top.

Lol how doesn't my question about ts% and points per shot not relate to anything? We are comparing the two players and you're the one saying those metrics are better than fg% so post them. I can only assume they are closer than you thought so you decided to play dumb and say they don't relate to anything. Or maybe you're just purposely being dense for the sake of your schtick.


And the quality of your team does affect those advanced stats. Love played on a decent team that had one of the best winning margins in the nba.

[Mr Sixer]

What's your obsession with our team anyway? Waiters is gonna be really good and beal is gonna be better, no big deal.

It's just that waiters is closer than people give him credit for. Statistically they are a pretty close considering the praise beal gets and the hate dion gets.
Of course beals advanced stats like +\- , win shares etc are better than waiters. Beal played on a good team last season while ours was pathetic. I'd be surprised if anyone on our team did well in those areas.

As for waiters ts%, it definitely needs a good spike up. His free throw shooting is abysmal so I really hope he worked on that this off season.

Just out of curiosity since you brought it up what's the difference in waiters Ts% and points per shot?

How good your team is does not affect those stats, in fact its the opposite because as you can see Kevin Love is at the top of a lot of those lists and it is the main reason why people argue that he is a top 5/ definitely top 10 player in the league even though his team has never made the playoffs.

Your question about TS and points per shot doesn't really relate to anything. One of your members was trying to say that Waiters shot a higher fg% so he is indeed a better shooter. I pointed out that this is because Beal shoots more 3s, which is statistically a lower percentage shot, which would explain the reason for this, and TS or EFG is a better statistic to use that would ignore these differences. He then came back saying I was trolling and using statistical hyperbole to make my points (don't really know what that means) and said I was making up fake criteria to rate them as players like the fact that 3 pointers are more efficient shots than mid-ranged 2s. I then told him to look up average points per shot from different parts of the court and it would be obvious that mid-range 2s are the lowest in this regard, and 3s are near the top.

Lol how doesn't my question about ts% and points per shot not relate to anything? We are comparing the two players and you're the one saying those metrics are better than fg% so post them. I can only assume they are closer than you thought so you decided to play dumb and say they don't relate to anything. Or maybe you're just purposely being dense for the sake of your schtick.


And the quality of your team does affect those advanced stats. Love played on a decent team that had one of the best winning margins in the nba.

Lol how am I the one being dense. You're trying to tell me I was comparing ts to points per shot. I never did this. I was simply trying to illustrate to another poster that you can use points per shot from different areas to surmise that a mid ranged 2 is a less efficient shot than a 3. I totally agree with you that waiters and beal have similar ts percentages. Right now in their careers they are similarly efficient scorers. I brought up points per shot to show that it is not fair to compare fg% between the two of them because Beal shoots more 3s. Is this really such a hard concept to comprehend?

[Dupp]

I wasn't telling you you were comparing ts % to points per shot I was just asking to compare beal and waiters in both catogories because I was curious.

[rjgraca]

Don't feed the Troll too much since he's stuck on his advanced stats in a vaccum with his bias coloring his responses of despising Waiters and ignoring variables like how good your team mates are which is why Beal is preceived to be ahead of Waiters. I guess Hall of fame centers who take so many 2 pointers would be looked down by this troll in order to push 3 point shooting bias no matter if a player isn't good at 3 point shooters and wouldn't be playing toward their strength of shooting higher percentage 2 point shots.

[antistrat]

Don't feed the Troll too much since he's stuck on his advanced stats in a vaccum with his bias coloring his responses of despising Waiters and ignoring variables like how good your team mates are which is why Beal is preceived to be ahead of Waiters. I guess Hall of fame centers who take so many 2 pointers would be looked down by this troll in order to push 3 point shooting bias no matter if a player isn't good at 3 point shooters and wouldn't be playing toward their strength of shooting higher percentage 2 point shots.

I believe Beal is perceived as better than Waiters for a simple reason: he's two years younger and averaged 17.1 ppg vs Waiters 15.9 ppg

Most people are casual fans and they look at the box score and see who scored the most points and tend to think that the higher scorers are the better players. But that isn't just limited to casual fans - even basketball people are prone to do this.

[Baseline Runner]

The biggest reason Waiters gets hated on is because of the whole locker room issue rumors as well as how he came off the bench.

Had he played 35 min a game as a starter and there were no questions about his character, he would easily be considered Beal's level.

What are you talking about? He was hated on since the time he was drafted.

[improvisor]

Just like we got hated on when we drafted LeBron many thought we should have picked Darko. Realgm members other than a select few are horrible.Cleveland can do no right in most people's eyes here.

[redemption]

Name one person that thought you should have drafted Darko. Just one.

Anyone...anyone...Bueller?

Maybe the funniest thing I've ever read on realgm.

Congratulations.

[hands11]

Beal is better but it's funny that statistically they've been close and beal is an awesome prospect while waiters is apparently trash.

For one, Beal just turned 21. Waiter will turn 23 in Dec.

For two, Beal is the nicest young man you could meet while Waiters doesn't have that reputation.

I expect CLE will look to move Waiters if they can.

Irving / Dellavedova / Lucas
Miller / Ray Allen / J. Jones
LeBron/ Marion
Love / Thompson
Varejao / Haywood

Plus center help. At a min, they get J ONeal.

[hands11]

Bradley Beal is a starter that shot 41% from the field and played 35 minutes per game last year. Waiters shot a better percentage and scored 2 points less in less minutes majority of it came off the bench. I much rather have waiters at this point.

If you look at the advanced stats instead of just comparing field goal percentage, it should be obvious. Turnovers, rebounding, offensive and defensive rating, and especially win shares, should explain the story a little better. Beals efg and ts are slightly better, and really Dion is only better statistically in assists, which is negated by his higher turnover rate. Combine this with the fact that Dion is a year and a half older and it should be obvious why people think Beal is the superior prospect.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=waitedi01&y1=2014&p2=bealbr01&y2=2014

And Beal doesn't have half the handle or ability to create his own shot that Dion does. If Beal doesn't get open off the ball, he generally doesn't get open.

Yes, Dion has more advanced handles and while you are generally right about Beal, you probably don't watch him as much as I do so I can read you in.

Wizards spent a lot of time last year allowing Beal to develop his handles in game. He put in the individual work but you also have to get reps in live games. They also devoted a lot of time with working two man games with Gortat, Nene and Trevor A. Beal is becoming a better ball handler and passer. He is still very young. And he missed time where he needed to stay off his feet because of a stress issue in his leg. One year from 21 to 22 is a lot of time in your bodies development. Beal actually was still growing his first year on the team.

They are both good prospects. Dion seems to have the edge in being aggressive.

But where things really separate is in who they are as people. Beal is a franchise piece you build around. He can be the face of your team. He is a player other players rally around. But as nice as he is, make no mistake, he has a warrior mentality. He is a worker. He doesn't shy away from a challenge. He will keep getting better and more efficient.

All that work they put in during the season showed up in the playoffs where he played great.

So I expect Beal to take another step this year and adding Paul Pierce is really going to help. Why ? Because Pierce can create his own shot off the dribble. Something Trevor A couldn't do every well. That makes the defenses have to stick closer to PP and that will open lanes for Beal. And along with PP, Otto can also dribble better then Webster which means now they have two SFs that can dribble where last year they had zero and thats what forced Beal into more of a ball handing role then he was ready for.

I personally though Dion was more dominate as a player earlier then Beal was. Beal still needs to get stronger. But because of who they are as people and because team chemistry is so important, Beal will be more valued. And now with LeBron returning to CLE, Dion will get even less of a focus as a core piece while Beal is squarely a core piece of the Wizards future.

Personally, I wonder if they will even keep Dion this year. I could easily see them moving him.

[hands11]

What the hell are you saying. I'm not being selective, I'm saying let's use a statistic similar to FG% like EFG or TS which ignores issues like the one I mentioned of Beal shooting more 3s per game because they are a objectively and indisputably a better statistic. The three point shot is one of the most efficient shots in the game, and part of the reason Waiters is considered an inefficient scorer, especially compared to Beal, is because he takes more midranged 2s, which is universally considered the most inefficient shot in the game.

Yes you are. In this reply you pointed out that higher percentage shots by waiters are less valuable and inefficient than Beals three pointer while trying to impress us with your stat hyperbole.

I'm done arguing with you. Your posts don't make any sense. Look up what the average point per shot is from different areas of the court. You will see that midranged 2s are at the bottom of the list and 3s are near the top. This is an objective analysis that is generally taken as fact amongst most people that know what they are talking about.

I have no skin in this bickering between you and others and you actually have some valid points you are trying to make. You might want to be less insulting though.

No one is going to listen if you are insulting them.

[TheOUTLAW]

Name one person that thought you should have drafted Darko. Just one.

Anyone...anyone...Bueller?

Maybe the funniest thing I've ever read on realgm.

Congratulations.

I was here then, there were plenty of pro Darko people on this site and even more anti LeBron. Folks said he would never be even an average shooter, he couldn't use his left at all etc. I've highly ridiculous to even request someone to actually point out a person that had a differing viewpoint 11 years ago. Now that's one of the more amusing things I've seen here.

[improvisor]

Name one person that thought you should have drafted Darko. Just one.

Anyone...anyone...Bueller?

Maybe the funniest thing I've ever read on realgm.

Congratulations.

Of course right now it might be funny why anyone would pick Darko over Lebron. The thing is back then, theres a reason why he went number 2. Most did think Lebron was a better prospect but as always a lot of doubters. Darko was a top prospect too that people was high on.

[improvisor]

I will man up...I actually wanted to Draft Melo over Lebron because I thought both Darko and Lebron was overhyped.

[Mr Sixer]

Guys, I'm just gonna admit that I was wrong on this one. Clearly waiters > beal idk what I was thinking.

[jbk1234]

Guys, I'm just gonna admit that I was wrong on this one. Clearly waiters > beal idk what I was thinking.

Nice troll job. Dion had an awful November. It's a long season.