RealGM Top 100 List #20

[90sAllDecade]

I have a tough time saying Wade is better than Barkley offensively because almost all of his career was played post hand check rules. This was designed specifically for players like Wade, Kobe and LeBron to succeed offensively and increase league ratings/revenue.

Barkley did all of his offensive damage without those rules partially inflating his offensive dominance.

I don't know if Wade was a defensive anchor and impacted the game enough to overcome Barkley's offense and rebounding. Barkley also blocked shots (for his size limitations) and stole the ball, he also would guard opposing PFs from what I've seen.

Does anyone have some games or playoff series to point to about how bad everyone is saying Barkley is on defense in his prime? I don't fully trust RAPM honestly and peer review can be exaggerated, film for both players might change my mind in favor of Wade.

And I put Barkley over Pettit, because in my research I can't find anyone saying Pettit is a good defensive player. I lack game film and peer review can have holes, but I know Barkley is superior offensively from numbers. And if that is Pettit's only calling card, I think Charles beats him at his own game for me right now.

I like Pettit a lot as a player and will eventually vote him later I think, but not at this spot unless I see defensive evidence.

[Jim Naismith]

Okay so I'll make this my vote, but my mind is still open.

Vote: Charles Barkley

On the whole I find the criticism of Barkley to be not inaccurate, but I find the way his positives are brushed aside to very problematic.

So, we've got people here very much debating Barkley vs Pettit. While I personally see Pettit as a legit talent in any era and defend his early inefficiency, the gap between Barkley and Pettit as an offensive threat is massive.

When you factor in pace, it makes sense to see Barkley at at least comparable volume to Pettit.

Pettit at his best was in the 52-53% TS range, while Barkley was more like 65-66%. I know the league is a bit more efficient nowadays, but I don't think I have to go into detail for people to realize this gap is insane. And of course, it's insane not because of Pettit - my point is not to trash Pettit - but because Barkley is such an outlier.

PER, which attempts to adjust for era differences, actually puts Pettit ahead of Barkley.

Career PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston 24.69
10. Charles Barkley 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 24.58
12. Tim Duncan 24.56

But then the suspicion is that prime Barkley is better. . .

1988-93 Barkley 26.8
1956-61 Pettit 26.4

But even here, Barkley's advantage is not as great than as is claimed. Barkley has never led the league in PER.

The players who led the league in PER for four seasons or more:

Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, Wilt, Kareem, and . . . Bob Pettit

The only place where there's a clear gap in favor of Barkley is playoff PER.

[Rapcity_11]

Just to sort of provide some data on Nash defense and how it might be more of a factor than people want to believe:

Steve Nash against opposing PG's he faced multiple times in the playoffs.

Mike Bibby:
02 vs Kings (Kings win series)

Against Dallas in the playoffs: 22/7 58%TS
Bibby's RS numbers that year: 14/5 51%TS

04 vs Kings (Kings win series)

Against Dallas in the playoffs: 24/5 60%TS
Bibby's RS numbers that year: 18/5 56%TS


Tony Parker:

03 vs Spurs (Spurs win series)

Against Dallas in PS Parker 16/4 49%tS
Parker's RS numbers: 9/4 50%TS

05 vs Spurs (Spurs win series)

Against Phoenix in PS Parker 20/4 49% TS
Parker's RS numbers: 17/6 53% TS

07 vs Spurs (Spurs win)
Against Phoenix in the PS Parker 21/6 49%TS
Parker in the RS: 19/6 57% TS

08 vs Spurs (Spurs win)

Against Phoenix in the PS PArker 30/7 58%TS
Parker in the RS 19/6 54% TS

10 vs Spurs(Suns win)
Against Phoenix in the PS 20/5 50% TS
PArker in the RS 16/6 54% TS

Jason Terry

05 vs Mavs (Phoenix wins)

Against Phoenix in the PS 17/5 55% Ts
Terry's RS numbers: 12/5 61%TS

06 vs Mavs (Dallas wins)

Against Phoenix in the PS 16/4 49%TS
Terry's RS numbers: 17/4 58%TS

Make of this what you will, but it seems a clear pattern of opposing PG's performing well offensively against Nash and the Suns in the playoffs.

I'm a little confused.

Other than Bibby and Parker in 08, those numbers are often worse in the playoffs. How exactly does that reflect poorly on Nash?

Upping volume on poor efficiency isn't a good thing...

[trex_8063]

My Vote for #20: Charles Barkley

To me, Charles just has to be in the top 20. As far as the best peaks still not voted in, there are perhaps a half dozen or so players (Baylor, Wade, Walton, Durant, etc) you can argue over Barkley, But in all of those instances, it’s 1) the peak is close/debatable, and 2) Barkley’s prime is significantly longer in ALL cases. As consequence, I think Barkley is best prime left out there.

imo, he’s arguably the best offensive PF in NBA history; certainly the only one who can rival Nowitzki for the distinction. Just to illustrate his offensive comparability to the guy voted in at #16…..

Prime Barkley (‘87-’97)
Per 100 rs: 32.0 pts, 15.7 reb, 5.5 ast, 2.1 stl, 1.1 blk, 4.3 tov on .619 TS%
25.8 PER, .229 WS/48, 121 ORtg on 38.0 mpg
Per 100 ps: 31.0 pts, 16.4 reb, 5.2 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.1 blk, 3.4 tov on .579 TS%
24.7 PER, .196 WS/48, 120 ORtg on 41.1 mpg

Prime Nowitzki (‘01-’14)
Per 100 rs: 33.7 pts, 12.0 reb, 3.9 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.7 tov on .585 TS%
24.2 PER, .218 WS/48, 118 ORtg on 36.6 mpg
Per 100 ps: 33.0 pts, 13.1 reb, 3.3 ast, 1.4 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov on .579 TS%
24.2 PER, .196 WS/48, ORtg 117 on 41.1 mpg

*Barkley career rs ORtg: 119
*Barkley career ps ORtg: 118
Nowitzki career rs ORtg: 117
Nowitzki career ps ORtg: 117
*although I’d call this basically a wash, as average ORtg during their respective careers averaged was ~1.5 pts higher in Barkley’s day. otoh, if we take that into consideration, Barkley actually had the marginally BETTER rs DRtg between the two of them (again: relatively speaking)

Barkley was twice the front man on the #1 offense in the land (‘93 and ‘94 in PHX). Although tbh, what is almost more impressive to me are the offenses he mustered in ‘89 and ‘90 in Philly:
*Rounding out the main five for Philly in ‘89 were Hersey Hawkins and an aging Maurice Cheeks in the backcourt, and Mike Gminski and Ron Anderson filling out the frontcourt with Chuck. Barkley spearheaded the #3 offense around that year, their team ORtg just 0.8 behind the friggin’ Showtime Lakers!, and just 0.1 behind the Suns (a team sporting KJ, Jeff Hornacek, peak Tom Chambers, peak Eddie Johnson, and a fair bit of depth).
**In ‘90 the Sixers main five were Charles, Gminski, Anderson, Hawkins, and Johnny Dawkins…….and Charles managed to lead that squad to the #2 offense in the land (just 0.5 behind the Magic Lakers).

In ‘96 the Rockets were the 12th-rated offense. In ‘97, ‘98, and ‘99 despite a declining Hakeem (who would also miss 35 games in ‘98) the Rockets---after obtaining late-prime/post-prime Charles----would finish 7th, 9th, and 5th respectively on offense; and fwiw did NOT decline defensively--->in fact, their defense improved from 14th in ‘96 to 9th in ‘97. Their defense did take a big slide in ‘98, but given Hakeem was declining AND missed 35 games, that’s pretty easy to understand.

Vs. some of the other candidates being discussed at this point, I simply think it must go to Charles for reasons of length, if for no other.
Against DWade, for instance……

If we’re somewhat tight on what we define as prime, we might say Wade is ‘06 thru ‘12 (7 seasons, 458 rs games), and Barkley is ‘87 thru ‘95 or ‘96 (9-10 seasons, 657-728 rs games). Or if we’re more expansive, we might say Wade’s prime is ‘05-’13 (9 seasons, 604 rs games); if equally expansive regarding Barkley we’d say his is perhaps ‘87-’97 (11 seasons, 781 rs games). And given the level of play is comparable:

Prime Barkley (‘87-’97)
Per 100 rs: 32.0 pts, 15.7 reb, 5.5 ast, 2.1 stl, 1.1 blk, 4.3 tov on .619 TS%
25.8 PER, .229 WS/48, 121 ORtg/105 DRtg on 38.0 mpg
Per 100 ps: 31.0 pts, 16.4 reb, 5.2 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.1 blk, 3.4 tov on .579 TS%
24.7 PER, .196 WS/48, 120 ORtg/109 DRtg on 41.1 mpg

Prime Wade (‘05-’13)
Per 100 rs: 36.5 pts, 7.4 reb, 8.9 ast, 2.6 stl, 1.5 blk, 5.0 tov on .569 TS%
26.3 PER, .204 WS/48, 112 ORtg/103 DRtg on 37.1 mpg
Per 100 ps: 33.4 pts, 7.7 reb, 7.1 ast, 2.3 stl, 1.7 blk, 4.8 tov on .556 TS%
23.9 PER, .179 WS/48, 109 ORtg/102 DRtg on 39.5 mpg


Vs. Steve Nash…..
Well, suffice to say that basically all box-score (even pace-adjusted) and advanced metrics all pretty definitively point to Barkley, though I know those aren’t the metrics where Nash really shines. But even in the realm of +/- data…….
From ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt:
Barkley’s ORAPM in ‘98 (and even speaking generously this cannot very easily be considered part of Barkley’s prime) is the 2nd-best in the league!, just 0.06 behind Karl Malone (in what some consider his peak season), and just ahead of a prime Shaq. fwiw, according to Doc’s normalized RAPM scores, his combined +/- in ‘98 is better than Steve Nash’s ‘05 score (one of the years he won MVP).
In ‘99, Barkley had the #1 ORAPM in the league, ahead of near-peak Shaq by 0.23---who happens to be the only player even within 1.0 of Barkley that year; in fact, Karl Malone is the only other player even within 1.5 of Barkley in ORAPM that year. And again: this is post-prime Charles.
Heck, even in his final banged-up twilight season, he had the 6th-best ORAPM in the league (in the 20 games he played).
While admittedly his defense appears to have been abysmal in these years, it’s food for thought that even a severely declined Barkley was still so offensively potent based on impact data.
And then there’s the fact that Nash blossomed so late: he didn’t enter his prime until at least his 6th season (and it would be at least 3 seasons more before he hit his peak). The obvious consequence is that his prime fizzled out sooner than others (like Barkley, for example). If we were to be very generous and say Nash’s prime is from ‘02-’11, I think we’d have to be equally generous to Barkley and say his is like ‘86-’97 (or maybe even ‘86-’99??). In short: longer than Nash’s.

Vs. Bob Pettit…..
I’m kinda running out of steam here, and comparing such vastly different eras is hard to do. I’ll merely make mention that strength of respective eras and the longevity case are sufficient to me to place Barkley a little ahead of Pettit.


Lastly, I’ll cite the data I’d posted on the #18 thread, regarding the best 3-year/5-year/7-year/10-year/12-spans for best rs PER, WS/48, and ORtg-DRtg gap, positions of Barkley, Wade, Pettit, and Nash bolded:

Best 3-year stretch rs PER

Spoiler:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’64): 31.7
2. Michael Jordan (‘88-’90 or ‘89-’91): 31.3
3. Lebron James (‘08-’10): 30.6
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’01): 30.5
5. David Robinson (‘94’-’96): 29.8
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’73): 29.1
t7. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): 28.2
t7. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): 28.2
t9. George Mikan (‘52-’54): 27.9
t9. Chris Paul (‘08-’10): 27.9
t11. Karl Malone (‘96-’98): 27.6
t11. Charles Barkley (‘89-’91): 27.6
t13. Bob Pettit (‘57-’59): 27.5
t13. Dwyane Wade (‘07-’09): 27.5
t15. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): 27.2
t15. Elgin Baylor (‘61-’63): 27.2
17. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04 or ‘03-’05): 27.0
18. Tracy McGrady (‘02-’04): 26.9
19. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): 26.8 (all ABA years)
20. Larry Bird (‘86-’88): 26.6
21. Oscar Robertson (‘64-’66): 26.5
t22. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): 26.2
t22. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘93-’95): 26.2
24. Kobe Bryant (‘06-’08): 26.1
25. Moses Malone ('81-'83): 25.7
(Nash not in top 25)

Best 5-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’91): 31.1
2. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’66): 30.5
3. Lebron James (‘09-’13): 30.4
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): 30.1
5. David Robinson (‘94-’98): 29.4
t6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’75): 27.6
t6. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’10): 27.6
8. Karl Malone (‘96-’00): 27.2
9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): 27.1
10. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’07): 27.0
t11. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): 26.9
t11. Bob Pettit (‘55-’59): 26.9
13. Chris Paul (‘08-’12): 26.8
14. *Julius Erving (‘72-’76): 26.4 (all ABA years)
15. Tim Duncan (‘01-’05): 26.3
t16. Larry Bird (‘84-’88): 26.1
t16. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’63): 26.1
t18. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): 26.0
t18. Oscar Robertson (‘62-’66): 26.0
20. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): 25.8
21. Neil Johnston (‘53-’57): 25.7
t22. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘92-’96): 25.6
t22. Tracy McGrady (‘01-’05): 25.6
24. Kobe Bryant (‘05-’09): 25.3
25. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): 25.0
(Nash not in top 25)

Best 7-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): 30.4
2. Lebron James (‘08-’14): 30.1
3. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’66): 29.8
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): 29.6
5. David Robinson (‘92-’98): 28.2
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’77 or ‘72-’78): 27.6
7. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’12): 27.2
t8. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): 26.6
t8. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): 26.6
10. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): 26.5
11. Kevin Garnett (‘02-’08): 26.3
12. Bob Pettit (‘55-’61): 26.1
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’67): 25.9
14. Tim Duncan (‘01-’07): 25.8
15. Dirk Nowitzki (‘02-’08): 25.5
t16. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): 25.3
t16. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘90-’96): 25.3
t18. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): 25.2
t18. Kobe Bryant (‘03-’09): 25.2
20. *Julius Erving (‘72-’78): 25.1 (includes 5 ABA years)
21. Tracy McGrady (‘01-’07): 25.0
22. Neil Johnston (‘52-’58): 24.9
23. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’65): 24.5
24. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): 24.2
t25. Dolph Schayes ('52-'58): 24.1
t25. Adrian Dantley ('80-'86): 24.1
27. Amar'e Stoudemire ('05-'11): 24.0
(Nash not in top 27)

Best 10-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’96): 30.1
2. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): 29.1
3. Lebron James (‘05-’14): 28.8
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’69): 28.1
5. David Robinson (‘90-’99): 27.7
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’80): 27.3
t7. Karl Malone (‘90-’99 or ‘91-’00 or ‘92-’01): 26.0
t7. Charles Barkley (‘87-’96): 26.0
t7. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): 26.0
t10. Tim Duncan (‘00-’09 or ‘01’-’10): 25.5
t10. Kevin Garnett (‘99-’08): 25.5
t10. Bob Pettit (‘55-’64): 25.5
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’70): 25.0
t14. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘87-’96): 24.9
t14. *Julius Erving (‘73-’82): 24.9 (includes 4 ABA years)
16. Dirk Nowitzki (‘02-’11): 24.8
17. Kobe Bryant (‘01-’10): 24.6
18. Magic Johnson (‘81-’90 or ‘82-’91): 24.5
19. Larry Bird (‘82-’91): 24.4
t20. Tracy McGrady (‘99-’08): 23.7
t20. Jerry West (‘64-’73): 23.7
22. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): 23.6
23. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’68): 23.2
24. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘04-’13): 23.0
(Nash not in top 24; 21.8 10-year PER, fwiw)

Best 12-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’97): 29.8
2. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 28.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): 27.4
4. David Robinson (‘90-’01): 27.1
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): 26.9
6. Karl Malone (‘90-’01): 26.0
7. Charles Barkley (‘86-’97): 25.5
8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 25.3
9. Kevin Garnett (‘98-’09): 24.8
t10. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’97): 24.7
t10. *Julius Erving (‘72-’83): 24.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
12. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 24.5
t13. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): 24.4
t13. Kobe Bryant (‘01-’12): 24.4
15. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): 24.2
16. Larry Bird (‘81-’92): 23.8
17. Jerry West (‘62-’73): 23.5
18. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 23.2
19. Tracy McGrady (‘98-’09): 23.1
20. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’70): 22.8
21. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): 22.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
22. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 22.6
(Nash not in top 22; 21.4 12-year PER, fwiw

Best 3-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’73): .330
2. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): .299
3. Lebron James (‘12-’14): .294
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’64): .291
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): .286
6. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): .278
7. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): .275
8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): .267
t9. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): .264
t9. George Mikan (‘52-’54): .264
11. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): .263
12. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): .261
t13. Charles Barkley (‘89-’91): .259
t13. Neil Johnston (‘54-’56): .259
15. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): .254
16. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): .252
t17. Oscar Robertson (‘64-’66): .250
t17. Jerry West (‘64-’66): .250
t19. Ed Macauley (‘52-’54): .247
t19. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): .247 (all 3 ABA years)
21. Dolph Schayes ('53-'55): .244
t22. Larry Bird (‘86-’88): .243
t22. Chauncey Billups (‘06-’08): .243
t24. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): .240
t24. Larry Foust (‘54-’56): .240
26. John Stockton (‘88-’90): .237
t27. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): .231
t27. *Rick Barry (‘67, ‘69-’70): .231 (includes 2 ABA years)
29. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’74): .229 (all 3 ABA years)
30. Bob Pettit (‘57-’59): .228
31. *Connie Hawkins (‘68-’70): .227 (includes 2 ABA years)
t32. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’11): .225
t32. Pau Gasol ('09-'11): .225
t32. Walt Frazier (‘70-’72): .225
35. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): .222
t36. Harry Gallatin (‘52-’54): .221
t36. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .221
t36. Adrian Dantley ('83-'85): .221
39. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): .220
40. Bill Russell (‘63-’65): .219
41. Bob McAdoo (‘74-’76): .217
t42. Vern Mikkelsen (‘52-’54): .216
t42. Sidney Moncrief ('81-'83): .216
44. Steve Nash (‘05-’07): .214

Best 5-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): .296
t1. Lebron James (‘09-’13): .296
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’75): .295
4. David Robinson (‘94-’98): .282
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’66): .275
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’12): .263
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): .260
8. Neil Johnston (‘53-’57): .254
9. Karl Malone (‘96-’00): .252
10. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): .251
11. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): .250
12. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): .249
13. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): .248
14. Oscar Robertson (‘63-’67): .244
15. Jerry West (‘64-’68): .241
t16. Tim Duncan (‘01-’05): .239
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): .239
18. Larry Bird (‘84-’88): .237
19. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’09): .234
20. Dolph Schayes ('53-'57): .233
21. John Stockton (‘88-’92): .229
22. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’76): .226 (all 5 ABA years)
t23. Chauncey Billups (‘04-’08): .225
t23. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): .225 (includes 3 ABA years)
25. Bob Pettit (‘57-’61): .222
26. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’13): .219
27. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .218
t28. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): .216
t28. Walt Frazier (‘69-’73): .216
30. Ed Macauley (‘52-’56): .214
t31. Sidney Moncrief ('82-'86): .212
t31. Adrian Dantley ('82-'86): .212
t33. Bill Russell (‘61-’65): .211
t33. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): .211
t35. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): .209
t35. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’00): .209
37. Yao Ming (‘04-’08): .207
38. Larry Foust (‘54-’58): .206
39. Pau Gasol (‘08-’12): .205
t40. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’95): .202
t40. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): .202
t40. Reggie Miller (‘94-’98): .202

Best 7-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): .285
t1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’77): .285
3. Lebron James (‘08-’14): .283
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’68): .274
5. David Robinson (‘94-’00): .273
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): .267
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): .248
8. Neil Johnston (‘52-’58): .245
9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): .243
t10. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): .241
t10. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): .241
t10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): .241
13. Jerry West (‘64-’70): .237
14. Oscar Robertson (‘62-’68): .236
15. Tim Duncan (‘99-’05): .233
16. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): .231
17. Kevin Garnett (‘02-’08): .230
18. Dolph Schayes ('52-'58): .229
19. Manu Ginobili (‘06-’12): .224
t20. Bob Pettit (‘55-’61): .220
t20. John Stockton (‘95-’01): .220
22. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’78): .217 (includes 5 ABA years)
23. Chauncey Billups (‘03-’09): .215
24. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): .212 (includes 3 ABA years)
25. Bill Russell (‘59-’65): .211
26. Adrian Dantley ('82-'88): .207
t27. Kevin Durant (‘08-’14): .205
t27. Sidney Moncrief ('80-'86): .205
t29. Dwyane Wade (‘07-’13): .203
t29. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): .203
31. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): .202
32. Kobe Bryant (‘03-’09): .201
t33. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’01, ‘03): .200
t33. Yao Ming (‘03-’09): .200
(Steve Nash not in top 34)

Best 10-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93, ‘95-97): .286
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’80): .271
3. David Robinson (‘91-’00): .261
4. Lebron James (‘05-’14): .260
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’69): .259
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): .241
7. Karl Malone (‘91-’00): .235
8. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): .231
9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’96): .230
10. Jerry West (‘64-’73): .229
11. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): .227
12. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): .225
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’70): .224
14. John Stockton (‘88-’97): .221
15. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’13): .217
t16. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): .216
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’09): .216
t16. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): .216 (includes 3 ABA years)
19. Bob Pettit (‘55-’64): .214
20. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’81): .211 (includes 5 ABA years)
21. Dolph Schayes ('52-'61): .206
t22. Bill Russell (‘58-’67): .202
t22. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’11): .202
24. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’09): .201
25. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): .200
26. Adrian Dantley ('79-'88): .199
27. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): .194
t28. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): .193
t28. Sidney Moncrief ('80-'89): .193
t30. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): .192
t30. Reggie Miller (‘90-’99): .192
(Steve Nash not in top 31)

Best 12-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): .279
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): .262
3. David Robinson (‘90-’01): .258
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): .251
5. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): .236
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): .234
7. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): .229
8. Charles Barkley (‘88-’99): .227
9. Jerry West (‘62-’73): .224
10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): .223
11. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): .222
12. John Stockton (‘88-’99): .220
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): .217
14. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’11): .211
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): .209
t15. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): .209 (includes 5 ABA years)
17. *Julius Erving (‘73-’84): .208 (includes 4 ABA years)
18. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): .205
19. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’13): .200
t20. Bill Russell (‘57-’68): .196
t20. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’11): .196
t20. Adrian Dantley ('77-'88): .196
23. Dolph Schayes ('52-'63): .195
t24. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): .189
t24. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): .189
t26. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): .186
t26. Reggie Miller (‘90-’01): .186
(Steve Nash not in top 27)

Best 3-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. Tyson Chandler (‘11-’13): 29
2. Dikembe Mutombo (‘06-’08): 27
3. Chris Andersen (‘12-’14): 26
4. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): 23
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): 22
t6. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): 21
t6. John Stockton (‘88-’90): 21
t6. Horace Grant (‘91-’93): 21
t6. Dennis Rodman (‘90-’92): 21
t10. Lebron James (‘12-’14): 20
t10. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): 20
t10. Pau Gasol ('09-'11): 20
t10. Charles Barkley (‘88-’90): 20
t14. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): 19
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): 19
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’83): 19
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Cedric Maxwell (‘79-’81): 19
t20. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): 18
t20. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): 18
t20. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): 18
t20. Sidney Moncrief ('81-'83): 18
t20. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’77): 18 (includes 2 ABA years)
t25. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’80): 17
t25. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): 17
t25. Ben Wallace (‘02-’04): 17
t25. Larry Bird (‘85-’87): 17
t25. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): 17
t25. Shawn Marion (‘05-’07): 17
t25. Joakim Noah ('11-'13): 17
t25. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): 17 (all 3 ABA seasons)
33. Brad Daugherty (‘92-’94): 16
t34. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’93): 15
t34. Robert Parish (‘81-’83): 15
t34. Reggie Miller (‘93-’95): 15
t34. Hersey Hawkins (‘96-’98): 15
t34. Larry Nance (‘91-’93): 15
t34. Shawn Kemp (‘94-’96): 15
t34. Detlef Schrempf (‘95-’97): 15
t34. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’83): 15
t34. Marcus Camby (‘99-’01): 15
t34. Jeff Hornacek ('95-'97): 15
t44. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): 14
t44. Scottie Pippen (‘96-’98): 14
t44. Alonzo Mourning (‘98-’00): 14
t44. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07 or ‘07-’09): 14
t44. Sam Perkins (‘95-’97): 14
t49. Steve Nash (‘05-’07): 13
t49. Patrick Ewing (‘92-’94): 13
t49. Adrian Dantley (‘86-’88): 13
t49. James Harden (‘12-’14): 13
t49. Marc Gasol (‘11-’13): 13
t54. Kevin Love (‘12-’14): 12
t54. Mark Price (‘92-’94): 12
t56. Dwyane Wade (‘10-’12): 11
t56. Blake Griffin (‘12-’14): 11
t56. Ray Allen (‘08-’10): 11
t56. Lamar Odom (‘09-’11): 11

Best 5-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘10-’14): 25
2. Tyson Chandler (‘10-’14): 24
3. Chris Paul (‘10-’14): 22
4. David Robinson (‘97-’01): 21
t5. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘09-’13): 20
t7. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): 19
t7. John Stockton (‘88-’92): 19
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’95): 19
t7. Dikembe Mutombo (‘04-’08): 19
t11. Tim Duncan (‘02-’06): 18
t11. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’08): 18
t11. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’82): 18
t14. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’93): 17
t14. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): 17
t14. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): 17
t14. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’82): 17
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): 17
t14. Larry Bird (‘83-’87): 17
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): 17
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’85): 17
t14. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): 17 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t23. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): 16
t23. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): 16
t23. Sidney Moncrief ('81-'85): 16
t23. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): 16
t23. Bobby Jones (‘80-’84): 16
t23. Pau Gasol ('08-'12): 16
t29. Karl Malone (‘96-’00 or ‘89-’93): 15
t29. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’09): 15
t29. Larry Nance (‘89-’93): 15
t29. Ben Wallace (‘02-’06): 15
t29. Marcus Camby (‘99-’03): 15
t29. Joakim Noah ('09-'13 or '10-'14): 15
t29. Jeff Hornacek ('95-'99): 15
t36. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘90-’94): 14
t36. Robert Parish (‘81-’85): 14
t36. Reggie Miller (‘91-’95): 14
t36. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’85): 14
t40. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): 13
t40. Scottie Pippen (‘94-’98): 13
t40. Shawn Marion (‘04-’08): 13
t40. Adrian Dantley (‘84-’88): 13
t40. Shawn Kemp (‘92-’96): 13
t40. Detlef Schrempf (‘94-’98): 13
t46. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): 12
t46. James Harden (‘10-’14): 12
t46. Alonzo Mourning (‘96-’00): 12
t46. Hersey Hawkins (‘94-’98): 12
t46. Brad Daugherty (‘90-’94): 12
t46. Ray Allen (‘08-’12): 12
t46. Sam Perkins (‘93-’97): 12
t46. Marc Gasol (‘10-’14): 12
t54. Kevin Love (‘10-’14): 11
t54. Patrick Ewing (‘90-’94): 11
t56. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’04): 10
t56. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’13): 10

Best 7-Year Stretch (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘08-’14): 23
2. David Robinson (‘95-’01): 22
3. Tyson Chandler (‘08-’14): 21
4. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘08-’14): 19
t5. John Stockton (‘95-’01): 19
t7. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): 18
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’97): 18
t9. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’95): 17
t9. Tim Duncan (‘02-’08): 17
t9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): 17
t9. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): 17
t9. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’09): 17
t9. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): 17
t9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): 17
t9. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’81): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t17. Artis Gilmore (‘79-’85): 16
t17. Sidney Moncrief ('80-'86): 16
t17. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’10 or ‘06-’12): 16
t20. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’84): 15
t20. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): 15
t20. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): 15
t20. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): 15
t20. Dikembe Mutombo (‘02-’08): 15
t25. Reggie Miller (‘91-’97): 14
t25. Dwight Howard (‘08-’14): 14
t25. Larry Nance (‘87-’93): 14
t25. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’84): 14
t25. Joakim Noah ('08-'14): 14
t25. Pau Gasol ('05-'11): 14
t25. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t32. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘88-’94): 13
t32. Shawn Marion (‘01-’07): 13
t32. Ben Wallace (‘00-’06): 13
t32. Detlef Schrempf (‘92-’98): 13
t32. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’87): 13
t37. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): 12
t37. Robert Parish (‘81-’87): 12
t37. Scottie Pippen (‘92-’98): 12
t37. Adrian Dantley (‘82-’88): 12
t37. Marcus Camby (‘99-’05): 12
t37. Jeff Hornacek ('94-'00): 12
t43. Steve Nash (‘02-’08): 11
t43. Alonzo Mourning (‘95-’01): 11
t43. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’95): 11
t43. Shawn Kemp (‘91-’97): 11
t43. Sam Perkins (‘91-’97): 11
t43. Ray Allen (‘08-’14): 11
t49. Kevin Durant (‘08-’14): 10
t49. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’11): 10
t49. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’12): 10
t49. Hersey Hawkins (‘92-’98): 10

Best 10-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (‘91-’00): 21
t2. Michael Jordan (‘88-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
t2. Chris Andersen (‘04-’06, ‘08-’14): 19
t4. John Stockton (‘88-’97): 18
t4. Tyson Chandler (‘05-’14): 18
t6. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): 17
t6. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’84): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Lebron James (‘05-’14): 16
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): 16
t8. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’12): 16
t8. Charles Barkley (‘86-’95): 16
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘88-’97): 16
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘99-’08): 16
t14. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): 15
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): 15
t14. Sidney Moncrief ('80-'89): 15
t14. Karl Malone (‘90-’99 or ‘89-’98): 15
t14. Horace Grant (‘90-’99): 15
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘77-’86): 15
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’12): 15
t21. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): 14
t21. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’87): 14
t21. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): 14
t21. Reggie Miller (‘91-’00): 14
t21. Ben Wallace (‘98-’07): 14
t21. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t27. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): 13
t27. Larry Nance (‘84-’93): 13
t29. Shawn Marion (‘00-’09): 12
t29. Robert Parish (‘82-’91): 12
t29. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’87): 12
t29. Detlef Schrempf (‘90-’99 or ‘91-’00): 12
t29. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’90): 12
t34. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): 11
t34. Dwight Howard (‘05-’14): 11
t34. Marcus Camby (‘99-’08): 11
t34. Jeff Hornacek ('90-'99): 11
t34. Pau Gasol ('03-'12): 11
t39. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’00): 10
t39. Sam Perkins (‘90-’99): 10
t39. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’98): 10
t39. Adrian Dantley (‘79-’88): 10
t39. Alonzo Mourning (‘94-’02, ‘04): 10
t39. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’14): 10
t45. Steve Nash (‘01-’10): 9
t45. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): 9
t45. Hersey Hawkins (‘90-’99): 9
t45. Shawn Kemp (‘90-’99): 9

Best 12-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (90-’01): 21
2. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
3. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 18
4. Magic Johnson (‘80-’91): 17
t5. Charles Barkley (‘87-’98): 16
t5. Tyson Chandler (‘03-’14): 16
t5. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’86): 16 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 15
t8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 15
t8. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): 15
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘87-’98): 15
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘97-’08): 15
t8. Chris Andersen (‘02-’’06, ‘08-14): 15
t8. *Artis Gilmore (‘74-’85): 15 (includes 3 ABA years)
t15. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 14
t15. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): 14
t15. Kevin Garnett (‘01-’12): 14
t15. Horace Grant (‘91-’02): 14
t15. Reggie Miller (‘93-’04): 14
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): 14
t21. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): 13
t21. Larry Nance (‘83-’94): 13
t21. *Julius Erving (‘74-’85): 13 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t24. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’89): 12
t24. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): 12
t24. Robert Parish (‘81-’92): 12
t24. Ben Wallace (‘98-’09 or ‘99-’10): 12
t28. Adrian Dantley (‘78-’89): 11
t28. Detlef Schrempf (‘89-’00): 11
t28. Maurice Cheeks (‘80-’91): 11
t28. Marcus Camby (‘99-’10): 11
t28. Jeff Hornacek ('89-'00): 11
t33. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 10
t33. Shawn Marion (‘00-’11): 10
t33. Pau Gasol ('02-'13): 10
t36. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’02): 9
t36. Steve Nash (‘01-’12): 9
t36. Patrick Ewing (‘88-’99): 9
t36. Alonzo Mourning (‘93-’02, ‘04-’05): 9
t36. Sam Perkins (‘88-’99): 9

In summary, yeah this one just feels like it has to be Barkley: great combination of high peak, long prime (compared to the others being considered at this spot), longevity, strong presence regardless of data metric you choose to examine him with.

[JordansBulls]

I am thinking Wade, Pettit and Barkley here. I am leaning towards Wade based on how he played when it mattered most.

[90sAllDecade]

Pettit only played for 10 years versus Barkley's 15 year career. This skews his career averages because Barkley was getting lower averages with multiple years included as he aged.

Also, Pre 1980 PER has problems that sites like BBallref try to balance out:

Calculating PER

Problems arise for seasons prior to 1979-80:

1979-80 — debut of 3-point shot in NBA
1977-78 — player turnovers first recorded in NBA
1973-74 — player offensive rebounds, steals, and blocked shots first recorded in NBA
The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statistics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:

Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.
Some of these solutions may not be elegant, but I think they are reasonable. After uPER is calculated, an adjustment must be made for the team's pace. The pace adjustment is:

pace adjustment = lg_Pace / team_Pace
League and team pace factors cannot be computed for seasons prior to 1973-74, so I estimate the above using:

estimated pace adjustment = 2 * lg_PPG / (team_PPG + opp_PPG)
To give you an idea of the accuracy of these estimates, here are the actual pace adjustments and the estimated pace adjustments for teams from the Eastern Conference in 2002-03:

Tm Act Est

ATL 1.00 0.99
BOS 1.00 1.02
CHI 0.97 0.98
CLE 0.97 0.99
DET 1.05 1.06
IND 0.99 1.00
MIA 1.04 1.08
MIL 1.01 0.96
NJN 0.99 1.03
NOH 1.01 1.02
NYK 1.00 0.98
ORL 0.98 0.97
PHI 1.00 0.99
TOR 1.01 1.01
WAS 1.03 1.03
For all seasons where actual pace adjustments can be computed, the root mean square error of the estimates is 0.01967.

Now the pace adjustment is made to uPER (I will call this aPER):

aPER = (pace adjustment) * uPER
The final step is to standardize aPER. First, calculate league average aPER (lg_aPER) using player minutes played as the weights. Then, do the following:

PER = aPER * (15 / lg_aPER)
The step above sets the league average to 15 for all seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Now, I'm no stat expert so others can possibly fill in here. But it seems the playing field is attempted to become more level in comparing PER during these eras but isn't level comparing across eras that have turnovers, steals, blocks, informed pace adjustments etc.

Even within the past eras it seems like an educated guess, since we don't know if a player who was particularly good or bad in turnovers or other stats would inflate or deflate his PER in comparison. Again I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like an even comparison.

I would also not use this in comparing Barkley to Ewing since it's a flawed stat defensively.

[Samurai]

Some of the Ewing stuff is pretty interesting. I had been leaning towards Chuck or Hondo--a player Im surprised isn't getting more mention yet.
But some of the Ewing stuff is pretty compelling as is some of the Bob Petit stuff.

I'm not sure what to make of Pettit. I'd love to hear what Samurai/johnlac1 have to say about him, but he might've played before their time.

My biggest question is about his shooting range. He seems to have been a smart defender and by a few accounts he was a GOAT-level offensive rebounder. I know this is a highlight mix, and the footage on him is limited, but does anyone want to guess as to what his range might have been based on this video?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdeiZRW7gSo[/youtube]

Sorry, Pettit retired a couple of years before I started following the NBA. On the video you included, if you look at the 2:54 mark Pettit appears to be shooting from 20 or so feet away.

[Jim Naismith]

And I put Barkley over Pettit, because in my research I can't find anyone saying Pettit is a good defensive player. I lack game film and peer review can have holes, but I know Barkley is superior offensively from numbers. And if that is Pettit's only calling card, I think Charles beats him at his own game for me right now.

I like Pettit a lot as a player and will eventually vote him later I think, but not at this spot unless I see defensive evidence.

According to this retrospective All-Defensive Team post
(from http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=190405)

Bob Pettit

3x All-Defensive 1st team: 1956, 1958, 1960

6x All-Defensive 2nd team: 1955, 1957, 1959, 1961, 1963, 1964

[magicmerl]

So it looks like it's Pettit vs Barkley. Here's some per100 stats conjured up for Pettit through dark magic.

Code: Select all

Player  REB  AST PF  PTS  TS%  OWS   DWS  WS    WS/48
Pettit. 16.4 3.0 3.2 26.7 .511  91.8 44.2 136.0 .213
Barkley 15.9 5.4 4.2 30.2 .612 123.3 53.9 177.2 .216

Pettit was a better rebounder, while Barkley was a better scorer and passer.

I think that Barkley clearly projects as the better player here, even without comparing eras.

[90sAllDecade]

And I put Barkley over Pettit, because in my research I can't find anyone saying Pettit is a good defensive player. I lack game film and peer review can have holes, but I know Barkley is superior offensively from numbers. And if that is Pettit's only calling card, I think Charles beats him at his own game for me right now.

I like Pettit a lot as a player and will eventually vote him later I think, but not at this spot unless I see defensive evidence.

According to this retrospective All-Defensive Team post
(from http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=190405)

Bob Pettit

3x All-Defensive 1st team: 1956, 1958, 1960

6x All-Defensive 2nd team: 1955, 1957, 1959, 1961, 1963, 1964

I appreciate the effort. But I can't view those rankings as credible as a real defensive team selection by coaches, since it's only that poster's own personal rankings and opinion:

Thurmond did do a good job of containing Wilt offensively. Wilt had a legendary EDF series vs Russell, but averaged something like 17 ppg on 56% shooting vs Thurmond.

And can someone explain to me how the hell you could have defensive win shares for seasons before blocks, steals and defensive rebounds were officially tracked?

I don't pretend to understand those stats, I know they are flawed, because guys like Heinsohn and Cousy rank highly despite being admittedly poor defenders. I based my selections more on reputation and their teams defensive ability. I did however use win shares to narrow down or expand my candidates in some cases.

In terms of Defensive Win Shares, Russell dominated the stats from 1958-1967, usually doubling up the second place finisher. That seems accurate based on all I've read and come to understand about Russell. Chamberlain's Win Shares went up right about when his team mates and coaches seem to say he started making more of a commitment to defense.

Still without Blocks and Steals (which Russell and Wilt would likely have averaged near double figures of combined) it's hard to see specialists and guards in particular getting sufficient credit.

Now if you have some newspaper clippings or other reports of him being good defensively, or even a good series or match-up where he made an impact ( I would later try to confirm the peer review by looking at the series data) that would help shed some light on his defense. I haven't found any in searches yet, if I find it I'll present it here as well.

[Jim Naismith]

Now if you have some newspaper clippings or other reports of him being good defensively, or even a good series or match-up where he made an impact ( I would later try to confirm the peer review by looking at the series data) that would help shed some light on his defense. I haven't found any in searches yet, if I find it I'll present it here as well.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... tit-at.htm

This mentions that in Pettit's greatest game, Game 6 of the 1958 Finals, he had 50 points, 19 rebounds, and . . . "blocked a dozen Celtics shots."

[ronnymac2]

Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly.

Patrick Ewing was definitely used incorrectly on offense. This was a guy who came into the league hyped as the next Bill Russell, of course based on defensive potential. He came in raw on offense, but he developed into a 20 PPG scorer based on team need. Unfortunately, NY never had a great offensive team in terms of spacing, creators, or scheme/coaching.

The irony now is that Ewing is being dinged for possible offensive shortcomings when his offensive development exceeded expectations and can be seen as a bonus, all the while Ewing succeeded as a defender by anchoring the greatest defensive dynasty in history post-Russell.

You mention Russell and the tendency to let that kick the conversation in one direction.
Question though: What if we talked about it in terms of Mutombo instead?

When I factor everything in I certainly pick Ewing over Mutombo so that's not the argument I'm making here. It's more along the lines of: Well, would you rank Mutombo ahead of Barkley? Most of the arguments really still hold true. Ewing & Mutombo are both player who largely matter because of their defense. Ewing's better on offense, Mutombo's better on defense. So then, presuming you rank Ewing > Barkley > Mutombo pretty easily, what exactly makes room to allow Barkley to be so neatly in between these other two guys?

In one sense the answer is obvious: Ewing's offense. And yet the gap between Ewing & Mutombo on offense is plain tiny compared to the gap between Barkley & Mutombo.

Now full disclosure: I'm not entirely convinced that one can't make a good argument for Mutombo over Barkley, so by no means do I see the dilemma I've posed as QED for Barkley's superiority to Ewing. I do think though that even when people say the words agreeing that Ewing's offense wasn't so huge, they probably aren't going back and thinking through how that makes him like players traditionally not talked about anywhere near the 20th spot.

And so yeah, my recognition about volume scoring bigs means some of them are going to take quite a hit in the "2-way star" argument that is often made for them. Mostly Ewing's a defensive guy like Barkley's an offensive guy, and on average the offensive guy is probably going to win more of those comparisons than he loses.

That's a fair way to look at the comparison. I myself am not 100% sure who I'd take between Pat and Charles, though I've voted for Charles the past 2 spots.

I disagree that the gap between Ewing & Mutombo on offense is tiny compared to the gap between Barkley and Mutombo. Pat was capable of carrying a first-option load on offense in multiple playoff series, something Mutombo never came close to doing. Ewing doesn't match Barkley's potency in this area, which is where their comparison gets interesting.

However, I don't think Ewing needs to go down to (Mutombo+X) level volume to contribute to a successful offense.

We both agree Ewing's use in real life was not optimal, and we both agree Ewing can take on more responsibility than Mutombo. I think he can take on more than you think he can though — perhaps significantly more. Maybe I've got (Mutombo+5X). And I base my belief on his performance in the lead role in 1993 vs. Chicago, in 1990 vs. Boston, etc. Put him as a secondary guy or 1B guy — still far, far more responsibility than Deke ever had — and I think you get more offensive consistency.

Does his offensive skillset allow him to be this "consistent option 1B" Ewing, or does his skillset only allow for the inconsistent star volume and efficiency we saw in real life when attached to his real-life level of primacy? That'd definitely be fair to question. In my opinion, yes, he can be the former. He's got great range out to 18 feet, works from different spots (baseline, top of the key, midpost/wing), and is strong enough to take advantage of mismatches on the block.

Incidentally, this is where I see the difference between Ewing and David Robinson (aside from longevity). Neither guy had an optimal setting in real life, but I do believe Ewing's offensive skillset ports a bit better.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so I'll make this my vote, but my mind is still open.

Vote: Charles Barkley
...
So how do I choose between Barkley and Ewing?

Well I'll say up front that it is hard to choose against a 2-way big, which is the holy grail of prospects even today where bigs seem less important. My concern with Ewing is about how 2-way he typically was.

Just taken with more basic stats, this was a guy typically scoring well above 20 PPG with meh efficiency on teams that weren't really killing it on offense. Right there if you think like I do that most bigs shouldn't be shooting that much, you have to question whether Ewing was being used correctly. And of course Ewing theory doesn't help there.

Were Barkley's teams killing it on efficiency? Barkley had better offensive players (and worse defensive) ones around him. His second option before the trade to Phoenix was Hersey Hawkins who is better than Ewing's John Stark. His offensive options in Phoenix were excellent with guys like KJ, Ceballos, etc. Did his spectacular individual numbers translate into great team offense? . . . because the case for Barkley is pretty much all offense.

You talk about Ewing's team offense but posters have shown Ewing's team defense was certainly top 20 all-time.

I don't really have any reason to doubt Barkley's offensive efficacy. He put up huge stats, in regular season and in the playoffs, he was part of some absolutely stellar offenses, and the RAPM we have late in his career is utterly massive.

If I go a bit more advanced and look at Offensive Win Shares, let's compare him, Barkley and their recently voted in peer:

Barkley 123.3
Robinson 98.5
Ewing 45.0

Pretty massive gap here between Ewing & Robinson let alone Barkley. Of course people end up debating Robinson vs Ewing, but that's because they think Robinson got worse in the playoffs. Barkley on the other hand if anything became even more dominant in the playoffs.

I'm hammering all this in because y'all know Barkley was much better than Ewing on offense, but you probably don't think of Barkley being 2-3 times as impactful.

And if we go into RAPM, it may get even worse. With the ubiquitous caveat in place that we don't have the earlier years, here's the Offensive RAPM for these two guys as we have them:

'98: Barkley 8.67, Ewing 0.51
'99: Barkley 7.81, Ewing 0.52
'00: Barkley 5.93. Ewing 0.47

This was what the guys looked like late in their career, with Ewing scoring a bit less than before, and Barkley outright NOT being his team's first option. Both almost certainly were better at their best, but holy crap, do you see the difference there? One guy is still an offensive superstar despite adjusting his role, while the other guy's impact is basically non-existent.

This sticks with me. It's be tough to vote for a true two-way superstar below Barkley, but I don't think that's what Ewing was. He might have been there briefly, but that's about it.

Now as I say all this I have to point out, if I gave the overall RAPM for these guys in those years Ewing's numbers are better than Barkley's.

I'll pause there to emphasize it.

You might be thinking, "Bloody hell Doc, how can you possibly go against Ewing if even in those circumstance he comes out on top?"

Thing is, late Barkley truly was awful on defense, and that's was gives Ewing the edge. If Barkley can be anywhere near neutrality, he wins this easily with that offensive edge, and in the end, I have trouble accepting that in his prime when things were truly on the line, Barkley was a major net negative on defense. He was just such an aggressive player getting boards, and steals, and even blocks. I'm not going to say he was great, but to truly claim that he was a millstone on defense and THAT is why I pick some offense-neutral big over him seems really, really bold to me.

OK, Barkley had a really bad rep on defense. The eye test says he frequently misses defensive switches and often doesn't try. He gets blocks and steals with his athleticism but then Gervin is one of the alltime leaders in blocks and steals as a 2 as well. His peers often refer to his poor defense and he himself says that when an ailing, injured Larry Bird retired that left no one in the league worse on defense than himself. OK, well, let's look at what defensive stats we have other then block/steal (which favor JaVale McGee as well). We only have RAPM for his late career; by that time he may have matured and gained a little more focus and understanding of team basketball . . . SURPRISE! By RAPM, his late season also show the remains of his great individual offensive game AND that he is truly awful defensively. So . . . your conclusion . . . well, Barkley probably was an average defender. WHAT? According to every piece of evidence we have except for block/steal numbers (where I keep pointing out bad but athletic defenders posting high b/s), Barkley was a complete and utter dog defensively. Where do you get any support for the idea that he was close to average?

Here's a quick and dirty team efficiency timeline for the Barkley years

Spoiler:

1985 6/23, 10/23 Barkley is a rookie in a lesser role. Including as a comp.
1986 9/23, 11/23 defensively. Barkley's first year as a 20ppg player alongside the aging core of Moses, Erving, Bobby Jones, and Cheeks. I
1987 13/23, 12/23 Moses traded away, Bobby Jones retires, Erving goes to part time, they do have the first pick in the NBA draft and deal it for Roy Hinson to play center next to Barkley
1988 10/23, 19/23 defensively. Erving gone, definitely Charles's team. Hinson career injury.
1989 3/23!, 24/25 defensively! (Barkley individually is terrific but Philly is swept by the Knicks)
1990 2/27, 16/27 (notice the expansion, you can expect a boost in everyone's numbers in 89 and 90 though that doesn't explain Philly's relative improvement strength) Rick Mahorn at C.
1991 13/27, 16/27
1992 11/27. 18/27
1993 -- traded to Phoenix. Philly tried to play 2 wings using Hornacek at point and the zero spacing of Weatherspoon, Perry, Lang, and Gilliam up front and, unsurprisingly, drops to 20th
Phoenix is already an outstanding offensive team (3rd and 5th the previous two years) but with Barkley they are even better finishing 1st/27. They are even above average 9/27 defensively.
1994 -- 1/27 again, but drop to 16/27 defensively despite Thunder Dan Majerle and AC Green leading the team in minutes
1995 3/27 but even worse defensively 19/27
1996 7/29, 23/29 defensively
1997 Barkley is gone, the team improves to 6/29 and 20/29 defensively
Barkley has finished his run as a prime time player, he plays third banana in Houston so not fiar to credit/blame him for their team.

I think what I'd say generally is that I'm hesistant to put a massive negative next to someone on defense. I've seen it too often used as the decisive factor in a comparison only for it to turn out to be largely without basis. For someone like Ewing to beat Barkley, he doesn't just need Barkley to be slightly below average on defense to me, he needs to be truly awful, and I don't know if I know enough to justify saying that. Perhaps you do, and that's fine. Perhaps I'm wrong.

On the year by year stuff here's what I see:

To me if your team DRtg is within 1 point of league average, you're just plain average. So then, 3 years in Barkley's Philly run that were truly below average:

'88: 2.3 worse than average
'89: 3.7

'92: 1.5

Now let's consider those years one by one.
From '87 to '88, they became bad. So we should look into why statistically. If the issue has to do with either Barkley behaving worse, or the team being unable to cover for Barkley any more, we would expect that eFG% would be the one of the 4 factors that's really changed.

Turns out it's TO%. The 76ers lost their ability to cause turnovers. When I see that, I look at steals and blocks. While blocks aren't actually a turnover, it's pretty common for teams to lose both types of gambles at the same time. Sure enough, the 76ers lost both. They had been top 5 in both the previous season. Not any more.

Okay, so who did they lose who was providing that? As you mentioned, Erving and Hinson. Okay, makes plenty of sense to me. What's also interesting is that this was clearly a team depending on such gambles as part of their defense, and that Barkley was actually the one leading the team in steal/blocks both seasons. Seems to me like his aggressiveness was right within the nature of their defense.

Now, the next year '89, the defense got even worse, but also the offense skyrocketed and the team on the whole got better. It's hard for me to look at such a year as being part of a trend of Barkley just not trying on defense, and since Barkley got his offense on even before this year he clearly wasn't individually depending on cheating off defense here to make the offense good.

Then of course '90 came and the defense got respectable again while maintaining the elite offense. Biggest jump there was improvement in eFG%, so in general they got their whole thing tightening up.

Jumping to '92, well, things seem to be falling apart as we know they were in Philly. Frankly, I would expect that Barkley wasn't hustling at this point like he's capable of. So I'll take it as a given he wasn't so impressive here, but for the heck of it, let's see what Philly looked like the next year without Barkley:

Turns out, they got considerably worse on both sides. The record doesn't look much worse, but we're talking a 4 SRS drop despite the fact that Barkley was presumably playing below his normal standards.

So, through his Philly run, the time when he's putting up big numbers on meh teams, I don't really see massive signs of effort issues.

As we move over to Phoenix, you didn't try to use this against Chuck, but people may wonder why the team didn't improve even more with his arrival. At least part of the issue was that the team's other star got hurt. When KJ was healthy that year the Suns went 37-12. So yeah, I think it's safe to say for that year that Barkley was able to slide in and make a great team considerably better.

We move over to '94 and you point out that the defensive rank fell off a good amount, which to me reads like you're saying Barkley's true colors came out...but Barkley missed time that year, and when he did come back not yet 100% his MPG was down. If Barkley was so awful on defense, shouldn't the time without him have HELPED the Suns defense?

'95 comes around and this time the injuries are across the board. Barkley misses time, and everyone else misses even more time. Barkley is the only guy who starts more than 60 games, and Kevin Johnson starts less than 40. Yet the team still wins 59 games, and for the second year in a row they lose in a tight 7 game series to the eventual champion Rockets.

After that I rather lose interest in going through things. The team clearly broke the next year, which was why the team started over, and didn't look that much worse when they did so. Short of an explanation why Barkley wasn't a huge part of what that team was when they were great, I don't see any reason to argue that his end run there is proof he didn't give anything to the team.

Now with Houston, you say basically to ignore it because he's a 3rd banana. I think it's worth looking at any way.

So it turns out Houston saw a rather large improvement on defense when Barkley arrived. 2.5 points better relative to league average than they were before. A bigger improvement than any falloff Barkley was associated with In Philly or Phoenix. Let's look at the factors:

Turns out the big improvement to the defense came through their defensive rebounding. They went from 20th in the league to 5th. And of course, who was their leading rebounding? Barkley.

Now, that right there is one of those things where you might say "yeah but". As in, "Yeah in a situation that desperately needs rebounding maybe Barkley could be a net positive on defense, but you're still sacrificing other aspects of defense." So let's look at other factors: Turns out eFG% and FTs improved also, so the team actually improved in their man defense with Barkley's addition. The only thing they ranked lower in ever slightly was in TOs caused, which is funny, because the whole thing about Barkley is that he's supposed to help you there but not enough to overcome his other issues.

After that year there were injuries to the Rockets so the team was never serious again, and we also have that PI RAPM data which say negative things about Barkley's defense at that point.

On the whole though, I look at all this, and I don't see glaring evidence that he was a horrible horrible defender. He was lazy at times, and that hurt his team, but the difference between him and guys like Amare or Melo who are true front court defensive disasters to me is that his aggressiveness was always there in some form. Even when he did nothing else, he was still getting rebounds. I look at it all and to me he seems like a guy who sometimes helped his defenses even if he sometimes hurt them too. I still don't feel comfortable putting a huge negative next to him in these player comparisons.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so I'll make this my vote, but my mind is still open.

Vote: Charles Barkley

On the whole I find the criticism of Barkley to be not inaccurate, but I find the way his positives are brushed aside to very problematic.

So, we've got people here very much debating Barkley vs Pettit. While I personally see Pettit as a legit talent in any era and defend his early inefficiency, the gap between Barkley and Pettit as an offensive threat is massive.

When you factor in pace, it makes sense to see Barkley at at least comparable volume to Pettit.

Pettit at his best was in the 52-53% TS range, while Barkley was more like 65-66%. I know the league is a bit more efficient nowadays, but I don't think I have to go into detail for people to realize this gap is insane. And of course, it's insane not because of Pettit - my point is not to trash Pettit - but because Barkley is such an outlier.

PER, which attempts to adjust for era differences, actually puts Pettit ahead of Barkley.

Career PER

1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston 24.69
10. Charles Barkley 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 24.58
12. Tim Duncan 24.56

But then the suspicion is that prime Barkley is better. . .

1988-93 Barkley 26.8
1956-61 Pettit 26.4

But even here, Barkley's advantage is not as great than as is claimed. Barkley has never led the league in PER.

The players who led the league in PER for four seasons or more:

Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, Wilt, Kareem, and . . . Bob Pettit

The only place where there's a clear gap in favor of Barkley is playoff PER.

Well there are a few things here:

1st, PER is a problematic stat in the best of times, let alone in an era with an incomplete box score. The data I showed make 100% clear that Barkley was a far more dangerous scorer than Pettit was. If one wants to make a case for Pettit based on defense that's cool, but of course PER isn't the way to do that because it doesn't measure defense well.

It should be noted also that PER underrates efficiency. If you go look at Offensive Win Shares, you'll see how Barkley pretty easily surpasses Pettit.

Also your last bit is a little odd to me. You leave just one sentence to say, "Except of course when it actually mattered, when Barkley beat Pettit by these measurements I've spent time using to support Pettit."

[Jim Naismith]

Also your last bit is a little odd to me. You leave just one sentence to say, "Except of course when it actually mattered, when Barkley beat Pettit by these measurements I've spent time using to support Pettit."

All I'm saying is that there is enough evidence to suggest that Barkley and Pettit are roughly in the same tier, with some evidence actually favoring Petit.

And even the most favorable pro-Barkley evidence does not overturn this. (The two-point difference in playoff PER is clear but not huge.)

[Doctor MJ]

That's a fair way to look at the comparison. I myself am not 100% sure who I'd take between Pat and Charles, though I've voted for Charles the past 2 spots.

I disagree that the gap between Ewing & Mutombo on offense is tiny compared to the gap between Barkley and Mutombo. Pat was capable of carrying a first-option load on offense in multiple playoff series, something Mutombo never came close to doing. Ewing doesn't match Barkley's potency in this area, which is where their comparison gets interesting.

However, I don't think Ewing needs to go down to (Mutombo+X) level volume to contribute to a successful offense.

We both agree Ewing's use in real life was not optimal, and we both agree Ewing can take on more responsibility than Mutombo. I think he can take on more than you think he can though — perhaps significantly more. Maybe I've got (Mutombo+5X). And I base my belief on his performance in the lead role in 1993 vs. Chicago, in 1990 vs. Boston, etc. Put him as a secondary guy or 1B guy — still far, far more responsibility than Deke ever had — and I think you get more offensive consistency.

Does his offensive skillset allow him to be this "consistent option 1B" Ewing, or does his skillset only allow for the inconsistent star volume and efficiency we saw in real life when attached to his real-life level of primacy? That'd definitely be fair to question. In my opinion, yes, he can be the former. He's got great range out to 18 feet, works from different spots (baseline, top of the key, midpost/wing), and is strong enough to take advantage of mismatches on the block.

Incidentally, this is where I see the difference between Ewing and David Robinson (aside from longevity). Neither guy had an optimal setting in real life, but I do believe Ewing's offensive skillset ports a bit better.

Some good stuff here.

My first objection, or difference, is in your litmus test of Ewing being able to carry a 1st option load. While I agree I can, my point is in how little I value that. That a team can feed you the ball and not fall off a cliff means next to nothing when the team could have just not used a volume scorer at all.

With the RAPM data we see Barkley and Ewing, both shooting with similar volume near the end of their career, and yet one looks like he's easily a Top 10 level offensive impactor, while the other guy basically looks neutral. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm completely comfortable saying that the gap between Ewing and an average NBA player through most of his prime is smaller than the gap between Barkley and Ewing. None of this is me saying I think Ewing is literally average, rather it is me saying that that's how far out there the outliers truly go.

As I've said before, the true two-way big is the holy grail, so why don't we see more of them win championships? Because for the most part, they don't exist. The guys being fed as volume scorers were largely just wasting their team's time, or worse. And so you have a guy like Ewing who can be argued to be one of the 10 best volume scoring bigs in history, but the "cliff" of impact fell off before you even got to the end of the top 10.

As far as Ewing being able to do better in a different role, well clearly I think you're right, but what's to be done about that? Would have been great to have Nash play SSOL style from day one...but he didn't. Here's where the criteria in this project is blurry to me as I know some leeway is granted. I try to keep focused on what the guy actually did - or at the most abstract, what he would likely have done if he played roughly the same way in a different era.

[90sAllDecade]

Now if you have some newspaper clippings or other reports of him being good defensively, or even a good series or match-up where he made an impact ( I would later try to confirm the peer review by looking at the series data) that would help shed some light on his defense. I haven't found any in searches yet, if I find it I'll present it here as well.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... tit-at.htm

This mentions that in Pettit's greatest game, Game 6 of the 1958 Finals, he had 50 points, 19 rebounds, and . . . "blocked a dozen Celtics shots."

Alright, thanks. I can't fully confirm this but I'll try, here's a radio broadcast of the 4th quarter of the NBA finals:

(part 1, link has all 7 parts to listen)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAPfJviJGHM[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNO0-E ... G6JoDewM2A

(I haven't heard him say Pettit blocked any shots yet, or commented on his defense, but I'm early in the playlist.)

[lorak]

Spoiler:

Re: Mikan. The thing I keep pointing to is that the only time when Mikan was clear cut way ahead of all contemporaries was through '51. Afterwards while he was still good, he's in the same tier with the other best players of his day...none of which do I take very seriously when talking about the #20 player of all-time.

First of all, no one from '52 to '54 produced at the level of Mikan. His WS/48 over that period is 0.264. Second best player (minimum 100 games played), Macauley averaged 0.247 (remember, the bigger the number, the more importance of even small gap) and Johnston with Schayes were 3rd/4th with 0.238 each.

But WS/48 is just one angle to look at production and in the case of 50s even more limited than in current era (unfortunately, because of lack of data from the 50s we have to use everything we have, even limited tools). In Mikan's case we also know that what separates him from his peers is his defensive dominance (one of his Lakers teams was GOAT level on defense, others very good) and that he led Minneapolis to three straight titles in his last three seasons pre shot clock. Really no one from that era comes even close to such overall impact.

Well first off, my whole allegation is simply that he's on the same tier with other players in those years, not that he's worse than them. Even if you can argue that he's still a bit better than them, the fact that none of them are worth talking about right now anyway means it's not really worth talking about MIkan.

He wasn't a bit better, he was clearly better and way ahead of others. WS/48 doesn't even capture his whole dominance as it's a measure flawed even in current era, when we have full box score. From mid 50s we have very limited data, so WS/48 is even more flawed. When we talk about his impact you can't ignore his defensive dominance AND three peat (it's not winning bias as Lakers were winning because of Mikan, he was driving force behind their titles) - no one from that time matched that or even came close. What you are saying is the same as saying that MJ doesn't deserve to be no 1, because he wasn't clearly ahead of others in WS/48 from '96 to '98 and no one from his peers was discussed as no 1 candidate. That's flawed logic.

And to be clear - I'm not arguing Mikan, because I want him to be voted now (or soon). According to my criteria he doesn't belong here. But some people look only at era impact, so they should consider him now, especially if they were voting for Russell, because as I showed pre shot clock players weren't much worse post shock clock, especially if we consider age.

[ThaRegul8r]

Now if you have some newspaper clippings or other reports of him being good defensively, or even a good series or match-up where he made an impact ( I would later try to confirm the peer review by looking at the series data) that would help shed some light on his defense. I haven't found any in searches yet, if I find it I'll present it here as well.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... tit-at.htm

This mentions that in Pettit's greatest game, Game 6 of the 1958 Finals, he had 50 points, 19 rebounds, and . . . "blocked a dozen Celtics shots."

I'm going to have to object to this. I remember nothing about Pettit having 12 blocks (not that that necessarily means anything in and of itself), there's nothing about it in my notes, and none of the game recaps I've seen of the game say anything about this.

When using a source as evidence, the first thing one must first do is determine whether it's valid, not just go with the first thing that seems to confirm what one is looking for. What "one newspaper report" says this? If it could be found, that would be confirmation, but it conveniently fails to cite the newspaper. I always make it a point to cite the paper as evidence. And considering how misinformation can be spread on the internet, I'm skeptical until I see an original source. An internet source was just disproven earlier today, and that was talking about a game a lot more recent.

[90sAllDecade]

Well, the commentator did say Pettit had a great game offensively and defensively towards the end, but there was nothing about him blocking shots and I couldn't find the newspaper report in question. It's only one game, but at least their is something saying he was capable of defense. I'll post some Barkley stuff to try and keep it even handed.

But Ewing is someone I may advocate for here, since his dominance as an all time great defensive anchor at center, the most impactful position for defense, worse team support than Barkley, Wade and others and offensive ability make him a strong competitor with Barkley imo. I also don't think Barkely or Wade would beat Jordan's Bulls or Hakeem's Rockets on those Knick teams switched out with Ewing.


I found this game in searches and apparently it's a classic with Ewing going off for 43 pts & 14 rebs and Dominique having 52 in double overtime:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtQ4Me6JrjU&list=UUtodEbFwCX8D27ywlRfYqQQ[/youtube]

Game Box Score: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199112070ATL.html