RealGM Top 100 List #20

[ShaqAttack3234]

Can't pick Wade over Barkley myself. Barkley is far more proven as the 1st option on not just a good, but elite offensive team. He had the talent around him in Phoenix, but was consistently elite, and even in '89 and '90, he had his teams top 2-3 offensively, right there with powerhouse LA and Phoenix teams with far more talent.

[90sAllDecade]

I also have Mikan over guys who played in his era like Dolph Schayes or Cousy, I don't know where they would fall in this list though.

Since people are interested in integration and how it changed the game, as well as folks interested in basketball history I'll share something I found from my notes on the topic: Mikan's Lakers vs the Globetrotters and the initial upsets, it's a short part of the history of the Globetrotter biography in the beginning.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E23MxqyjWLo[/youtube]

More notes on the upset ( a great article):

http://www.mmbolding.com/basketball/Globetrotters.htm

Now Mikan did always dominate back then, even the Globetrotters (box scores):

http://www.apbr.org/trotters-lakers.html

[penbeast0]

As I suspected, this one is a clear win for Charles Barkley. Frankly, if I hadn't watched so much of him and just was reading the excellent arguments here, I'd vote for Barkley too. The arguments for Ewing have been excellent too and I have to consider him more strongly than I had been (may move ahead of Frazier).

Barkley -- ShaqAttack3234, tsherkin, ardee, FJS, DoctorMJ, shutupandjam, basketballefan, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam, PCProductions, DQuinn1575, drza, SactoKingsFan
Pettit -- penbeast0, Jim Naismith, Warspite, Chuck Texas,
Wade -- HeartbreakKid, lukekarts,
Ewing -- ronnymac2, 90s AllDecade

[magicmerl]

As I suspected, this one is a clear win for Charles Barkley. Frankly, if I hadn't watched so much of him and just was reading the excellent arguments here, I'd vote for Barkley too. The arguments for Ewing have been excellent too and I have to consider him more strongly than I had been (may move ahead of Frazier).

Barkley -- ShaqAttack3234, tsherkin, ardee, FJS, DoctorMJ, shutupandjam, basketballefan, trex_8063, Clyde Frazier, Moonbeam, PCProductions, DQuinn1575, drza, SactoKingsFan
Pettit -- penbeast0, Jim Naismith, Warspite, Chuck Texas,
Wade -- HeartbreakKid, lukekarts,
Ewing -- ronnymac2, 90s AllDecade

Heh, I just did this too You got everyone but me (I voted for Barkley as well).

[tsherkin]

Alrighty then.

Through the top 20 and some really interesting debates coming up!

[Doctor MJ]

The issue with the typical "big" is that he must live by the basket because he can't handle the ball. Barkley is not one of those bigs. It's not hard to find highlights of a young Barkley going coast to coast doing a Magic impression with fancy dribbles and a behind the back pass, and he shot from range.

Frankly it's rather astonishing to consider the efficiency you mention on top of that: Barkley lacked that crippling aspect of being an offensive big, and yet he still destroyed all the other bigs when it came to efficiency. I voted Malone over Barkley because of the other issues involved, but it's rather amazing that despite the fact Malone had Stockton feeding him he couldn't touch Barkley's efficiency numbers.

Were we making a GOAT offesnive "big" list that included all 4s and 5s, it's hard for me to imagine picking anyone over Barkley.

How high do you rate Amare Stoudamire? Similar defensive rep, lesser rebounder, slightly higher scoring volume per 38 or per 100 possession for career, slightly lower efficiency but in the playoffs, Amare maintains his volume scoring edge and closes the efficiency to a virtual tie. Barkley passes better but turns it over a lot more as well. Barkley shoots more 3's but generally scores much closer to the basket. Offensively, I'd say their numbers were very close (Barkley owns him on the boards and seems to have a stronger team impact so higher overall).

Hmm. Well first I'll say it's a little weird getting asked about Amare given what I just said about Barkley. To be clear, these things I'm talking about with Barkley, I don't say the same thing about Amare. Barkley is a creator, both with his rebounds and playmaking, Amare's just a finisher. Amare's calling card of scoring + efficiency came to an end as soon as he stopped having Nash next to him.

Then there's the correlation issue. The Suns offense lived and died far more with Nash than with Amare. You might say "This isn't about Nash", and that's true, but for example, Amare's peak scaled PI offensive RAPM is +4.11. That ain't terrible - it's better for example than anything Pau Gasol ever did - but it doesn't put him anywhere near the top of the list of the best in the game. We have 3 such scores from Barkley in his final 3 years, all were huge compared to Amare.

So yeah, they just don't occupy similar places in my mind. I get that they are both offensive-oriented bigs, but I consider Barkley's offense to be far, far more impressive. And frankly defensively, if I have to use Amare as a 5, I consider that a considerably bigger liability than Barkley at the 4.

[Moonbeam]

Lastly, I’ll cite the data I’d posted on the #18 thread, regarding the best 3-year/5-year/7-year/10-year/12-spans for best rs PER, WS/48, and ORtg-DRtg gap, positions of Barkley, Wade, Pettit, and Nash bolded:

Best 3-year stretch rs PER

Spoiler:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’64): 31.7
2. Michael Jordan (‘88-’90 or ‘89-’91): 31.3
3. Lebron James (‘08-’10): 30.6
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’01): 30.5
5. David Robinson (‘94’-’96): 29.8
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’73): 29.1
t7. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): 28.2
t7. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): 28.2
t9. George Mikan (‘52-’54): 27.9
t9. Chris Paul (‘08-’10): 27.9
t11. Karl Malone (‘96-’98): 27.6
t11. Charles Barkley (‘89-’91): 27.6
t13. Bob Pettit (‘57-’59): 27.5
t13. Dwyane Wade (‘07-’09): 27.5
t15. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): 27.2
t15. Elgin Baylor (‘61-’63): 27.2
17. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04 or ‘03-’05): 27.0
18. Tracy McGrady (‘02-’04): 26.9
19. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): 26.8 (all ABA years)
20. Larry Bird (‘86-’88): 26.6
21. Oscar Robertson (‘64-’66): 26.5
t22. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): 26.2
t22. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘93-’95): 26.2
24. Kobe Bryant (‘06-’08): 26.1
25. Moses Malone ('81-'83): 25.7
(Nash not in top 25)

Best 5-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’91): 31.1
2. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’66): 30.5
3. Lebron James (‘09-’13): 30.4
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): 30.1
5. David Robinson (‘94-’98): 29.4
t6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’75): 27.6
t6. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’10): 27.6
8. Karl Malone (‘96-’00): 27.2
9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): 27.1
10. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’07): 27.0
t11. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): 26.9
t11. Bob Pettit (‘55-’59): 26.9
13. Chris Paul (‘08-’12): 26.8
14. *Julius Erving (‘72-’76): 26.4 (all ABA years)
15. Tim Duncan (‘01-’05): 26.3
t16. Larry Bird (‘84-’88): 26.1
t16. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’63): 26.1
t18. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): 26.0
t18. Oscar Robertson (‘62-’66): 26.0
20. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): 25.8
21. Neil Johnston (‘53-’57): 25.7
t22. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘92-’96): 25.6
t22. Tracy McGrady (‘01-’05): 25.6
24. Kobe Bryant (‘05-’09): 25.3
25. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): 25.0
(Nash not in top 25)

Best 7-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): 30.4
2. Lebron James (‘08-’14): 30.1
3. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’66): 29.8
4. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): 29.6
5. David Robinson (‘92-’98): 28.2
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’77 or ‘72-’78): 27.6
7. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’12): 27.2
t8. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): 26.6
t8. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): 26.6
10. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): 26.5
11. Kevin Garnett (‘02-’08): 26.3
12. Bob Pettit (‘55-’61): 26.1
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’67): 25.9
14. Tim Duncan (‘01-’07): 25.8
15. Dirk Nowitzki (‘02-’08): 25.5
t16. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): 25.3
t16. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘90-’96): 25.3
t18. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): 25.2
t18. Kobe Bryant (‘03-’09): 25.2
20. *Julius Erving (‘72-’78): 25.1 (includes 5 ABA years)
21. Tracy McGrady (‘01-’07): 25.0
22. Neil Johnston (‘52-’58): 24.9
23. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’65): 24.5
24. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): 24.2
25. Amar'e Stoudemire ('05-'11): 24.0
(Nash not in top 25)

Best 10-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’96): 30.1
2. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): 29.1
3. Lebron James (‘05-’14): 28.8
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’69): 28.1
5. David Robinson (‘90-’99): 27.7
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’80): 27.3
t7. Karl Malone (‘90-’99 or ‘91-’00 or ‘92-’01): 26.0
t7. Charles Barkley (‘87-’96): 26.0
t7. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): 26.0
t10. Tim Duncan (‘00-’09 or ‘01’-’10): 25.5
t10. Kevin Garnett (‘99-’08): 25.5
t10. Bob Pettit (‘55-’64): 25.5
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’70): 25.0
t14. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘87-’96): 24.9
t14. *Julius Erving (‘73-’82): 24.9 (includes 4 ABA years)
16. Dirk Nowitzki (‘02-’11): 24.8
17. Kobe Bryant (‘01-’10): 24.6
18. Magic Johnson (‘81-’90 or ‘82-’91): 24.5
19. Larry Bird (‘82-’91): 24.4
t20. Tracy McGrady (‘99-’08): 23.7
t20. Jerry West (‘64-’73): 23.7
22. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): 23.6
23. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’68): 23.2
24. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘04-’13): 23.0
(Nash not in top 24; 21.8 10-year PER, fwiw)

Best 12-Year Stretch PER (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’97): 29.8
2. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 28.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): 27.4
4. David Robinson (‘90-’01): 27.1
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): 26.9
6. Karl Malone (‘90-’01): 26.0
7. Charles Barkley (‘86-’97): 25.5
8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 25.3
9. Kevin Garnett (‘98-’09): 24.8
t10. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’97): 24.7
t10. *Julius Erving (‘72-’83): 24.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
12. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 24.5
t13. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): 24.4
t13. Kobe Bryant (‘01-’12): 24.4
15. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): 24.2
16. Larry Bird (‘81-’92): 23.8
17. Jerry West (‘62-’73): 23.5
18. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 23.2
19. Tracy McGrady (‘98-’09): 23.1
20. Elgin Baylor (‘59-’70): 22.8
21. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): 22.7 (includes 5 ABA years)
22. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 22.6
(Nash not in top 22; 21.4 12-year PER, fwiw

Best 3-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’73): .330
2. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): .299
3. Lebron James (‘12-’14): .294
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’64): .291
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): .286
6. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): .278
7. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): .275
8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): .267
t9. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): .264
t9. George Mikan (‘52-’54): .264
11. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): .263
12. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): .261
t13. Charles Barkley (‘89-’91): .259
t13. Neil Johnston (‘54-’56): .259
15. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): .254
16. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): .252
t17. Oscar Robertson (‘64-’66): .250
t17. Jerry West (‘64-’66): .250
t19. Ed Macauley (‘52-’54): .247
t19. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): .247 (all 3 ABA years)
t21. Larry Bird (‘86-’88): .243
t21. Chauncey Billups (‘06-’08): .243
t23. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): .240
t23. Larry Foust (‘54-’56): .240
25. John Stockton (‘88-’90): .237
t26. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): .231
t26. *Rick Barry (‘67, ‘69-’70): .231 (includes 2 ABA years)
28. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’74): .229 (all 3 ABA years)
29. Bob Pettit (‘57-’59): .228
30. *Connie Hawkins (‘68-’70): .227 (includes 2 ABA years)
t31. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’11): .225
t31. Pau Gasol ('09-'11): .225
t31. Walt Frazier (‘70-’72): .225
34. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): .222
t35. Harry Gallatin (‘52-’54): .221
t35. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .221
37. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): .220
38. Bill Russell (‘63-’65): .219
39. Bob McAdoo (‘74-’76): .217
40. Vern Mikkelsen (‘52-’54): .216
41. Steve Nash (‘05-’07): .214

Best 5-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): .296
t1. Lebron James (‘09-’13): .296
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’75): .295
4. David Robinson (‘94-’98): .282
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’66): .275
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’12): .263
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): .260
8. Neil Johnston (‘53-’57): .254
9. Karl Malone (‘96-’00): .252
10. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): .251
11. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): .250
12. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): .249
13. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): .248
14. Oscar Robertson (‘63-’67): .244
15. Jerry West (‘64-’68): .241
t16. Tim Duncan (‘01-’05): .239
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): .239
18. Larry Bird (‘84-’88): .237
19. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’09): .234
20. John Stockton (‘88-’92): .229
21. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’76): .226 (all 5 ABA years)
t22. Chauncey Billups (‘04-’08): .225
t22. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): .225 (includes 3 ABA years)
24. Bob Pettit (‘57-’61): .222
25. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’13): .219
26. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07): .218
t27. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): .216
t27. Walt Frazier (‘69-’73): .216
29. Ed Macauley (‘52-’56): .214
t30. Bill Russell (‘61-’65): .211
t30. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): .211
t32. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): .209
t32. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’00): .209
34. Yao Ming (‘04-’08): .207
35. Larry Foust (‘54-’58): .206
36. Pau Gasol (‘08-’12): .205
t37. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’95): .202
t37. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): .202
t37. Reggie Miller (‘94-’98): .202

Best 7-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

t1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): .285
t1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’77): .285
3. Lebron James (‘08-’14): .283
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘62-’68): .274
5. David Robinson (‘94-’00): .273
6. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): .267
7. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): .248
8. Neil Johnston (‘52-’58): .245
9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): .243
t10. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): .241
t10. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): .241
t10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): .241
13. Jerry West (‘64-’70): .237
14. Oscar Robertson (‘62-’68): .236
15. Tim Duncan (‘99-’05): .233
16. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): .231
17. Kevin Garnett (‘02-’08): .230
18. Manu Ginobili (‘06-’12): .224
t19. Bob Pettit (‘55-’61): .220
t19. John Stockton (‘95-’01): .220
21. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’78): .217 (includes 5 ABA years)
22. Chauncey Billups (‘03-’09): .215
23. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): .212 (includes 3 ABA years)
24. Bill Russell (‘59-’65): .211
25. Kevin Durant (‘08-’14): .205
t26. Dwyane Wade (‘07-’13): .203
t26. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): .203
28. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): .202
29. Kobe Bryant (‘03-’09): .201
t30. Arvydas Sabonis (‘96-’01, ‘03): .200
t30. Yao Ming (‘03-’09): .200
(Steve Nash not in top 31)

Best 10-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93, ‘95-97): .286
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’80): .271
3. David Robinson (‘91-’00): .261
4. Lebron James (‘05-’14): .260
5. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’69): .259
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): .241
7. Karl Malone (‘91-’00): .235
8. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): .231
9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’96): .230
10. Jerry West (‘64-’73): .229
11. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): .227
12. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): .225
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’70): .224
14. John Stockton (‘88-’97): .221
15. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’13): .217
t16. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): .216
t16. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’09): .216
t16. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): .216 (includes 3 ABA years)
19. Bob Pettit (‘55-’64): .214
20. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’81): .211 (includes 5 ABA years)
t21. Bill Russell (‘58-’67): .202
t21. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’11): .202
23. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’09): .201
24. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): .200
25. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): .194
26. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): .193
t27. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): .192
t27. Reggie Miller (‘90-’99): .192
(Steve Nash not in top 28)

Best 12-Year WS/48 (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): .279
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘71-’82): .262
3. David Robinson (‘90-’01): .258
4. Wilt Chamberlain (‘60-’71): .251
5. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): .236
6. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): .234
7. Magic Johnson (‘81-’91, ‘96): .229
8. Charles Barkley (‘88-’99): .227
9. Jerry West (‘62-’73): .224
10. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): .223
11. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): .222
12. John Stockton (‘88-’99): .220
13. Oscar Robertson (‘61-’72): .217
14. Kevin Garnett (‘00-’11): .211
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): .209
t15. *Artis Gilmore (‘72-’83): .209 (includes 5 ABA years)
17. *Julius Erving (‘73-’84): .208 (includes 4 ABA years)
18. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): .205
19. Chauncey Billups (‘02-’13): .200
t20. Bill Russell (‘57-’68): .196
t20. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’11): .196
t22. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): .189
t22. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): .189
t24. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): .186
t24. Reggie Miller (‘90-’01): .186
(Steve Nash not in top 25)

Best 3-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. Tyson Chandler (‘11-’13): 29
2. Dikembe Mutombo (‘06-’08): 27
3. Chris Andersen (‘12-’14): 26
4. Chris Paul (‘12-’14): 23
5. David Robinson (‘94-’96): 22
t6. Michael Jordan (‘89-’91): 21
t6. John Stockton (‘88-’90): 21
t6. Horace Grant (‘91-’93): 21
t6. Dennis Rodman (‘90-’92): 21
t10. Lebron James (‘12-’14): 20
t10. Magic Johnson (‘89-’91): 20
t10. Pau Gasol ('09-'11): 20
t10. Charles Barkley (‘88-’90): 20
t14. Tim Duncan (‘02-’04): 19
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’06): 19
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’83): 19
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘05-’07): 19
t14. Cedric Maxwell (‘79-’81): 19
t20. Dwight Howard (‘09-’11): 18
t20. Kevin McHale (‘86-’88): 18
t20. Kevin Durant (‘12-’14): 18
t20. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’77): 18 (includes 2 ABA years)
t24. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’80): 17
t24. Shaquille O’Neal (‘00-’02): 17
t24. Ben Wallace (‘02-’04): 17
t24. Larry Bird (‘85-’87): 17
t24. Karl Malone (‘97-’99): 17
t24. Shawn Marion (‘05-’07): 17
t24. Joakim Noah ('11-'13): 17
t24. *Julius Erving (‘74-’76): 17 (all 3 ABA seasons)
32. Brad Daugherty (‘92-’94): 16
t33. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘91-’93): 15
t33. Robert Parish (‘81-’83): 15
t33. Reggie Miller (‘93-’95): 15
t33. Hersey Hawkins (‘96-’98): 15
t33. Larry Nance (‘91-’93): 15
t33. Shawn Kemp (‘94-’96): 15
t33. Detlef Schrempf (‘95-’97): 15
t33. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’83): 15
t33. Marcus Camby (‘99-’01): 15
t33. Jeff Hornacek ('95-'97): 15
t43. Moses Malone (‘81-’83): 14
t43. Scottie Pippen (‘96-’98): 14
t43. Alonzo Mourning (‘98-’00): 14
t43. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’07 or ‘07-’09): 14
t43. Sam Perkins (‘95-’97): 14
t48. Steve Nash (‘05-’07): 13
t48. Patrick Ewing (‘92-’94): 13
t48. Adrian Dantley (‘86-’88): 13
t48. James Harden (‘12-’14): 13
t48. Marc Gasol (‘11-’13): 13
t53. Kevin Love (‘12-’14): 12
t53. Mark Price (‘92-’94): 12
t55. Dwyane Wade (‘10-’12): 11
t55. Blake Griffin (‘12-’14): 11
t55. Ray Allen (‘08-’10): 11
t55. Lamar Odom (‘09-’11): 11

Best 5-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘10-’14): 25
2. Tyson Chandler (‘10-’14): 24
3. Chris Paul (‘10-’14): 22
4. David Robinson (‘97-’01): 21
t5. Michael Jordan (‘88-’92): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘09-’13): 20
t7. Charles Barkley (‘87-’91): 19
t7. John Stockton (‘88-’92): 19
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’95): 19
t7. Dikembe Mutombo (‘04-’08): 19
t11. Tim Duncan (‘02-’06): 18
t11. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’08): 18
t11. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’82): 18
t14. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’93): 17
t14. Magic Johnson (‘87-’91): 17
t14. Kevin McHale (‘84-’88): 17
t14. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’82): 17
t14. Kevin Garnett (‘04-’08): 17
t14. Larry Bird (‘83-’87): 17
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘03-’07): 17
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘81-’85): 17
t14. *Julius Erving (‘74-’78): 17 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t23. Shaquille O’Neal (‘99-’03): 16
t23. Dwight Howard (‘08-’12): 16
t23. Kevin Durant (‘10-’14): 16
t23. Bobby Jones (‘80-’84): 16
t23. Pau Gasol ('08-'12): 16
t28. Karl Malone (‘96-’00 or ‘89-’93): 15
t28. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’09): 15
t28. Larry Nance (‘89-’93): 15
t28. Ben Wallace (‘02-’06): 15
t28. Marcus Camby (‘99-’03): 15
t28. Joakim Noah ('09-'13 or '10-'14): 15
t28. Jeff Hornacek ('95-'99): 15
t35. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘90-’94): 14
t35. Robert Parish (‘81-’85): 14
t35. Reggie Miller (‘91-’95): 14
t35. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’85): 14
t39. Moses Malone (‘79-’83): 13
t39. Scottie Pippen (‘94-’98): 13
t39. Shawn Marion (‘04-’08): 13
t39. Adrian Dantley (‘84-’88): 13
t39. Shawn Kemp (‘92-’96): 13
t39. Detlef Schrempf (‘94-’98): 13
t45. Steve Nash (‘03-’07): 12
t45. James Harden (‘10-’14): 12
t45. Alonzo Mourning (‘96-’00): 12
t45. Hersey Hawkins (‘94-’98): 12
t45. Brad Daugherty (‘90-’94): 12
t45. Ray Allen (‘08-’12): 12
t45. Sam Perkins (‘93-’97): 12
t45. Marc Gasol (‘10-’14): 12
t53. Kevin Love (‘10-’14): 11
t53. Patrick Ewing (‘90-’94): 11
t55. Kobe Bryant (‘00-’04): 10
t55. Dwyane Wade (‘09-’13): 10

Best 7-Year Stretch (rs)

Spoiler:

1. Chris Andersen (‘08-’14): 23
2. David Robinson (‘95-’01): 22
3. Tyson Chandler (‘08-’14): 21
4. Chris Paul (‘08-’14): 20
t5. Lebron James (‘08-’14): 19
t5. John Stockton (‘95-’01): 19
t7. Michael Jordan (‘87-’93): 18
t7. Horace Grant (‘91-’97): 18
t9. Dennis Rodman (‘89-’95): 17
t9. Tim Duncan (‘02-’08): 17
t9. Magic Johnson (‘85-’91): 17
t9. Larry Bird (‘82-’88): 17
t9. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’09): 17
t9. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’07): 17
t9. Charles Barkley (‘87-’93): 17
t9. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’81): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t17. Artis Gilmore (‘79-’85): 16
t17. Manu Ginobili (‘04-’10 or ‘06-’12): 16
t19. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’84): 15
t19. Shaquille O’Neal (‘97-’03): 15
t19. Karl Malone (‘95-’01): 15
t19. Kevin McHale (‘84-’90): 15
t19. Dikembe Mutombo (‘02-’08): 15
t24. Reggie Miller (‘91-’97): 14
t24. Dwight Howard (‘08-’14): 14
t24. Larry Nance (‘87-’93): 14
t24. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’84): 14
t24. Joakim Noah ('08-'14): 14
t24. Pau Gasol ('05-'11): 14
t24. *Julius Erving (‘74-’80): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t31. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘88-’94): 13
t31. Shawn Marion (‘01-’07): 13
t31. Ben Wallace (‘00-’06): 13
t31. Detlef Schrempf (‘92-’98): 13
t31. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’87): 13
t36. Moses Malone (‘79-’85): 12
t36. Robert Parish (‘81-’87): 12
t36. Scottie Pippen (‘92-’98): 12
t36. Adrian Dantley (‘82-’88): 12
t36. Marcus Camby (‘99-’05): 12
t36. Jeff Hornacek ('94-'00): 12
t42. Steve Nash (‘02-’08): 11
t42. Alonzo Mourning (‘95-’01): 11
t42. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’95): 11
t42. Shawn Kemp (‘91-’97): 11
t42. Sam Perkins (‘91-’97): 11
t42. Ray Allen (‘08-’14): 11
t48. Kevin Durant (‘08-’14): 10
t48. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’11): 10
t48. Dwyane Wade (‘06-’12): 10
t48. Hersey Hawkins (‘92-’98): 10

Best 10-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (‘91-’00): 21
t2. Michael Jordan (‘88-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
t2. Chris Andersen (‘04-’06, ‘08-’14): 19
t4. John Stockton (‘88-’97): 18
t4. Tyson Chandler (‘05-’14): 18
t6. Magic Johnson (‘82-’91): 17
t6. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’84): 17 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Lebron James (‘05-’14): 16
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’08): 16
t8. Kevin Garnett (‘03-’12): 16
t8. Charles Barkley (‘86-’95): 16
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘88-’97): 16
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘99-’08): 16
t14. Larry Bird (‘80-’89): 15
t14. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’10): 15
t14. Karl Malone (‘90-’99 or ‘89-’98): 15
t14. Horace Grant (‘90-’99): 15
t14. Artis Gilmore (‘77-’86): 15
t14. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’12): 15
t20. Kevin McHale (‘82-’91): 14
t20. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’87): 14
t20. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’03): 14
t20. Reggie Miller (‘91-’00): 14
t20. Ben Wallace (‘98-’07): 14
t20. *Julius Erving (‘74-’83): 14 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t26. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘86-’95): 13
t26. Larry Nance (‘84-’93): 13
t28. Shawn Marion (‘00-’09): 12
t28. Robert Parish (‘82-’91): 12
t28. Cedric Maxwell (‘78-’87): 12
t28. Detlef Schrempf (‘90-’99 or ‘91-’00): 12
t28. Maurice Cheeks (‘81-’90): 12
t33. Moses Malone (‘79-’88): 11
t33. Dwight Howard (‘05-’14): 11
t33. Marcus Camby (‘99-’08): 11
t33. Jeff Hornacek ('90-'99): 11
t33. Pau Gasol ('03-'12): 11
t38. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’00): 10
t38. Sam Perkins (‘90-’99): 10
t38. Patrick Ewing (‘89-’98): 10
t38. Adrian Dantley (‘79-’88): 10
t38. Alonzo Mourning (‘94-’02, ‘04): 10
t38. Amar’e Stoudemire (‘05-’14): 10
t44. Steve Nash (‘01-’10): 9
t44. Dwyane Wade (‘05-’14): 9
t44. Hersey Hawkins (‘90-’99): 9
t44. Shawn Kemp (‘90-’99): 9

Best 12-Year ORtg/DRtg Gap

Spoiler:

1. David Robinson (90-’01): 21
2. Michael Jordan (‘86-’93, ‘95-’98): 19
3. John Stockton (‘88-’99): 18
4. Magic Johnson (‘80-’91): 17
t5. Charles Barkley (‘87-’98): 16
t5. Tyson Chandler (‘03-’14): 16
t5. *Bobby Jones (‘75-’86): 16 (includes 2 ABA years)
t8. Tim Duncan (‘99-’10): 15
t8. Dirk Nowitzki (‘01-’12): 15
t8. Karl Malone (‘89-’00): 15
t8. Dennis Rodman (‘87-’98): 15
t8. Dikembe Mutombo (‘97-’08): 15
t8. Chris Andersen (‘02-’’06, ‘08-14): 15
t8. *Artis Gilmore (‘74-’85): 15 (includes 3 ABA years)
t15. Shaquille O’Neal (‘94-’05): 14
t15. Larry Bird (‘80-’91): 14
t15. Kevin Garnett (‘01-’12): 14
t15. Horace Grant (‘91-’02): 14
t15. Reggie Miller (‘93-’04): 14
t15. Manu Ginobili (‘03-’14): 14
t21. Kevin McHale (‘81-’92): 13
t21. Larry Nance (‘83-’94): 13
t21. *Julius Erving (‘74-’85): 13 (includes 3 ABA seasons)
t24. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (‘78-’89): 12
t24. Hakeem Olajuwon (‘85-’96): 12
t24. Robert Parish (‘81-’92): 12
t24. Ben Wallace (‘98-’09 or ‘99-’10): 12
t28. Adrian Dantley (‘78-’89): 11
t28. Detlef Schrempf (‘89-’00): 11
t28. Maurice Cheeks (‘80-’91): 11
t28. Marcus Camby (‘99-’10): 11
t28. Jeff Hornacek ('89-'00): 11
t33. Moses Malone (‘78-’89): 10
t33. Shawn Marion (‘00-’11): 10
t33. Pau Gasol ('02-'13): 10
t36. Scottie Pippen (‘91-’02): 9
t36. Steve Nash (‘01-’12): 9
t36. Patrick Ewing (‘88-’99): 9
t36. Alonzo Mourning (‘93-’02, ‘04-’05): 9
t36. Sam Perkins (‘88-’99): 9

Very awesome job putting these together. I've noticed a few players missing from the WS/48 runs, and just thought I'd let you know:

Dolph Schayes
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief

[Texas Chuck]

Amare's calling card of scoring + efficiency came to an end as soon as he stopped having Nash next to him.

Let me preface this by saying obviously Amare benefited from playing with Nash.

However, when we examine Amare we also have to take into account the injuries and how they have robbed him of much of what made him such a dangerous and effective scorer.

And in his first year in NYK he still put up 25 ppg on really good efficiency and when we do per 100 as is in vogue in this project his production is every bit as it was when playing with Nash. And the last couple years while his raw totals are down, we again see him being nearly as productive per 100 possessions and still on really strong efficiency.

This narrative that Amare is nearly exclusively a product of Nash doesn't really hold up when we give it even a cursory examination. Obviously he had his best years with Nash, but some of that is due to him having come into the league out of high school and the natural evolution that coincided with Nash's arrival and of course post-Nash is also post knee and serious eye injury.

[trex_8063]

Very awesome job putting these together. I've noticed a few players missing from the WS/48 runs, and just thought I'd let you know:

Dolph Schayes
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief

Thanks for catching them; Sid's actually a big presence in the ORtg-DRtg gap category, too. Embarrassed to have missed him (and the others).

[tsherkin]

Let me preface this by saying obviously Amare benefited from playing with Nash.

However, when we examine Amare we also have to take into account the injuries and how they have robbed him of much of what made him such a dangerous and effective scorer.

And in his first year in NYK he still put up 25 ppg on really good efficiency and when we do per 100 as is in vogue in this project his production is every bit as it was when playing with Nash. And the last couple years while his raw totals are down, we again see him being nearly as productive per 100 possessions and still on really strong efficiency.

His last couple of years are irrelevant due to low minutes and lower volume. Different role, smaller sample, different defensive attention, and generally still not getting the level of production and efficiency he saw with Nash.

It IS relevant to say that Amare wasn't ENTIRELY a product of Nash; as I'd noted earlier, he had his off-ball movement, his jumper (which improved DRAMATICALLY after 03-04, but was already showing improvement in his second season anyway) and earlier on, his relentless athleticism.

He would have been very good without Nash; he was legendary WITH Nash (at least on offense). That's kind of the difference there. His best usage is within the scope of the role he fulfilled while playing alongside Nash. Using him as a focal offensive player from an isolation standpoint took away from his strengths. 2011, as I'd mentioned, was actually a pretty strong statement about his ability to still be good without Nash... just clearly not AS good. And in context of a comparison with Barkley, he drops off of the map entirely.

[trex_8063]

Very awesome job putting these together. I've noticed a few players missing from the WS/48 runs, and just thought I'd let you know:

Dolph Schayes
Adrian Dantley
Sidney Moncrief

Thanks for catching them; Sid's actually a big presence in the ORtg-DRtg gap category, too. Embarrassed to have missed him (and the others).

Viola. All necessary corrections have been made.

[Clyde Frazier]

The issue with the typical "big" is that he must live by the basket because he can't handle the ball. Barkley is not one of those bigs. It's not hard to find highlights of a young Barkley going coast to coast doing a Magic impression with fancy dribbles and a behind the back pass, and he shot from range.

Frankly it's rather astonishing to consider the efficiency you mention on top of that: Barkley lacked that crippling aspect of being an offensive big, and yet he still destroyed all the other bigs when it came to efficiency. I voted Malone over Barkley because of the other issues involved, but it's rather amazing that despite the fact Malone had Stockton feeding him he couldn't touch Barkley's efficiency numbers.

Were we making a GOAT offesnive "big" list that included all 4s and 5s, it's hard for me to imagine picking anyone over Barkley.

How high do you rate Amare Stoudamire? Similar defensive rep, lesser rebounder, slightly higher scoring volume per 38 or per 100 possession for career, slightly lower efficiency but in the playoffs, Amare maintains his volume scoring edge and closes the efficiency to a virtual tie. Barkley passes better but turns it over a lot more as well. Barkley shoots more 3's but generally scores much closer to the basket. Offensively, I'd say their numbers were very close (Barkley owns him on the boards and seems to have a stronger team impact so higher overall).

Hmm. Well first I'll say it's a little weird getting asked about Amare given what I just said about Barkley. To be clear, these things I'm talking about with Barkley, I don't say the same thing about Amare. Barkley is a creator, both with his rebounds and playmaking, Amare's just a finisher. Amare's calling card of scoring + efficiency came to an end as soon as he stopped having Nash next to him.

Then there's the correlation issue. The Suns offense lived and died far more with Nash than with Amare. You might say "This isn't about Nash", and that's true, but for example, Amare's peak scaled PI offensive RAPM is +4.11. That ain't terrible - it's better for example than anything Pau Gasol ever did - but it doesn't put him anywhere near the top of the list of the best in the game. We have 3 such scores from Barkley in his final 3 years, all were huge compared to Amare.

So yeah, they just don't occupy similar places in my mind. I get that they are both offensive-oriented bigs, but I consider Barkley's offense to be far, far more impressive. And frankly defensively, if I have to use Amare as a 5, I consider that a considerably bigger liability than Barkley at the 4.

I have to echo what Chuck Texas said about Amare's ability as a scorer not being directly related to Nash. They made one of the best P&R combos over the last decade because he was an incredible finisher as much as nash was a lethal threat in the mid range.

In amare's first season in NY, it didn't take him long to develop chemistry with a VERY average starting PG in felton in the P&R. And just to clarify, felton at his best was a serviceable PG, so i'm not trying to make him out to be the felton of last season or something. Amare still put up 25 PPG on a TS% of ~57%, made all NBA 2nd team, and finished 10th in MVP voting. Those are pretty substantial accomplishments 1 season removed from nash, so I don't think the bolded statement above is accurate. It was really injuries that derailed him over the last few seasons.

Outside of that, I would've had a similar response to penbeast as you did. In his prime, amare wasn't much of a shot creator or playmaker beyond having a quick first step against slower defenders, and becoming an adept mid range shooter. He thrived on finishing off the catch, and his game just didn't really resemble barkley's offensively. Barkley was a far more versatile player who didn't need a PG to help him score with high efficiency. They aren't on the same level offensively, and barkley being an elite rebounder further separates the 2.

[tsherkin]

If you took away the passing element, Amare reminded me of a hyper athletic Karl Malone offensively, to be honest. EXCELLENT off-ball, great catch-and-shoot jumper, simplistic but effective face-post game. Not as strong, but a lot of the basic elements of Malone's game were the foundations of Amare's. He had far more athleticism to rely on than did Malone, but he was like Old Malone with a stupid-fast first step, great bounce and way weaker passing.

[ronnymac2]

In 2010, PHX ran the best offense in the league, a +7.7 offense that hit the vaunted 115 points per possession territory. Then they put up a 117.8 ORTG through the WCFs. Historic stuff here.

In 2011, PHX dropped to a +2.2 offense at 109.5, good for 9th in the league.

In 2011, Amar'e Stoudemire's NYK team was a +3.6 offense, good for 7th in the league.

Total minute leaders for PHX in 2010:

Amar'e
Nash
J-Rich
Hill
Frye
Dudley
Dragic
Amundson
Lopez
Barbosa

Total minute leaders for PHX in 2011:

Frye
Nash
Hill
Dudley
Gortat
Warrick
Carter
Lopez
Childress
Dragic
J-Rich
Pietrus
Turkoglu

1. The Carter/Gortat trade in December is important to note, as Richardson and Nash had great chemistry, and Gortat was only getting his first chance at being a major minutes player.

2. Nash played 163 more minutes in 2010 than in 2011.

3. Amar'e's team was shook up midseason as well, as NY gutted the roster to acquire Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups. Amar'e and Melo aren't a natural fit. Both Amar'e and Nash had to adjust mid-season in their first year apart for reasons other than being apart.

[Doctor MJ]

Amare's calling card of scoring + efficiency came to an end as soon as he stopped having Nash next to him.

Let me preface this by saying obviously Amare benefited from playing with Nash.

However, when we examine Amare we also have to take into account the injuries and how they have robbed him of much of what made him such a dangerous and effective scorer.

And in his first year in NYK he still put up 25 ppg on really good efficiency and when we do per 100 as is in vogue in this project his production is every bit as it was when playing with Nash. And the last couple years while his raw totals are down, we again see him being nearly as productive per 100 possessions and still on really strong efficiency.

This narrative that Amare is nearly exclusively a product of Nash doesn't really hold up when we give it even a cursory examination. Obviously he had his best years with Nash, but some of that is due to him having come into the league out of high school and the natural evolution that coincided with Nash's arrival and of course post-Nash is also post knee and serious eye injury.

Really good efficiency? Peak Amare shot 65% TS. 2010 Suns Amare shot 61%. Knicks Amare shot 56%. The bulk of what made Amare so insanely impressive as a scorer left with that efficiency drop. Afterwards he was impressive sure, but being a volume scorer who can do it at slightly above league average efficiency isn't the same outlier kind of thing.

Look I'm not saying Amare was nothing. It really hurt the Sun offense when he went out because while Nash was good, he couldn't get any other teammate to be anywhere near as good as Amare. I think Amare being on All-NBA teams made tons of sense. But Amare's being brought up next to Barkley in part because they both had extreme efficiency, and the fact that one guys efficiency was dependent on an all-time point guard while the other created it for himself is the big reason why one deserves discussion here while the other doesn't in my book.

Also, regarding the injuries. Those are worth discussing when talking about Amare's longevity, but I don't know if they really affect what we know about his potential. He basically recovered from his 2005 injury/surgery, and he didn't start having the serious injuries in New York until after we'd seen him play a while.

[Doctor MJ]

If you took away the passing element, Amare reminded me of a hyper athletic Karl Malone offensively, to be honest. EXCELLENT off-ball, great catch-and-shoot jumper, simplistic but effective face-post game. Not as strong, but a lot of the basic elements of Malone's game were the foundations of Amare's. He had far more athleticism to rely on than did Malone, but he was like Old Malone with a stupid-fast first step, great bounce and way weaker passing.

Are you seriously saying though you think Amare was a better independent scorer than Malone? I doubt you mean that.

Amare was an excellent scorer by any normal standards, but the fact remains that if we had a stat that measured "scoring profit" by multiplying a volume factor by an efficiency factor, Amare would have lost the bulk of his profit when he left Phoenix. That should be considered a big deal.

If one agrees with me there and simply things I'm giving Amare no credit, well, then I should be nicer to Amare. I don't think he's a nothing player, but truly I don't know if he'll make my Top 100 (and he didn't make the group Top 100 last time).

[Doctor MJ]

In 2010, PHX ran the best offense in the league, a +7.7 offense that hit the vaunted 115 points per possession territory. Then they put up a 117.8 ORTG through the WCFs. Historic stuff here.

In 2011, PHX dropped to a +2.2 offense at 109.5, good for 9th in the league.

In 2011, Amar'e Stoudemire's NYK team was a +3.6 offense, good for 7th in the league.

Total minute leaders for PHX in 2010:

Amar'e
Nash
J-Rich
Hill
Frye
Dudley
Dragic
Amundson
Lopez
Barbosa

Total minute leaders for PHX in 2011:

Frye
Nash
Hill
Dudley
Gortat
Warrick
Carter
Lopez
Childress
Dragic
J-Rich
Pietrus
Turkoglu

1. The Carter/Gortat trade in December is important to note, as Richardson and Nash had great chemistry, and Gortat was only getting his first chance at being a major minutes player.

2. Nash played 163 more minutes in 2010 than in 2011.

3. Amar'e's team was shook up midseason as well, as NY gutted the roster to acquire Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups. Amar'e and Melo aren't a natural fit. Both Amar'e and Nash had to adjust mid-season in their first year apart for reasons other than being apart.

Great stuff to bring up for Amare no doubt. I think I'll leave it at that for now. I'm tempted to come in and defend Nash, but that wasn't really what we were talking about. We were talking about Amare, and yes Amare was a valuable part of a great offense that took a major hit without him.

[Texas Chuck]

Doc,

Im not asking you to think higher of Amare as a player. I don't think of him in the same terms as Barkley either.

I just take issue with the idea that Amare(and Marion if he gets traction at the bottom of this list) are dependent on Nash. Nash's stats blew up playing with them too. Now part of that is Nash getting himself into good physical condition and cutting way back on the night life, and wanting to prove Cuban wrong. But part of it is the guys like Amare, Marion, and the various shooters were much more symbiotic with Nash than Dirk and Finley, etc were.

It needs to go both ways. Absolutely Amare and Co benefit from playing with one of the 3 best offensive PG's of all time. But he benefited from having elite finishers and being surrounded by shooters too. To think otherwise is to suggest that Nash radically became a different and superior player at age 30 which I don't believe to be the case.

[tsherkin]

If you took away the passing element, Amare reminded me of a hyper athletic Karl Malone offensively, to be honest. EXCELLENT off-ball, great catch-and-shoot jumper, simplistic but effective face-post game. Not as strong, but a lot of the basic elements of Malone's game were the foundations of Amare's. He had far more athleticism to rely on than did Malone, but he was like Old Malone with a stupid-fast first step, great bounce and way weaker passing.

Are you seriously saying though you think Amare was a better independent scorer than Malone? I doubt you mean that.

No, I was making a stylistic comparison.

Amare was an excellent scorer by any normal standards, but the fact remains that if we had a stat that measured "scoring profit" by multiplying a volume factor by an efficiency factor, Amare would have lost the bulk of his profit when he left Phoenix. That should be considered a big deal.

I debate that point; especially pre-trade, he was still performing at what we consider an elite level in New York before his knees fell apart. That's an issue of its own and while true that he wasn't AS good in ny as pho, it's inaccurate to suggest that there was not stron offensive profit from his offense as a knick. I think you're underselling his ability because we saw so little of healthyAmare post Phoenix and it's hard to recall, personally.

[Doctor MJ]

Amare was an excellent scorer by any normal standards, but the fact remains that if we had a stat that measured "scoring profit" by multiplying a volume factor by an efficiency factor, Amare would have lost the bulk of his profit when he left Phoenix. That should be considered a big deal.

I debate that point; especially pre-trade, he was still performing at what we consider an elite level in New York before his knees fell apart. That's an issue of its own and while true that he wasn't AS good in ny as pho, it's inaccurate to suggest that there was not stron offensive profit from his offense as a knick. I think you're underselling his ability because we saw so little of healthyAmare post Phoenix and it's hard to recall, personally.

His efficient the prior year in Phoenix 61.5% T.
His efficiency for the season in NY was 56.5% TS.
His efficiency pre-all-star break in NY was 57.0% TS.

As you can see, the efficiency of Amare for the season was still basically in line with what it was pre-Melo. Both were much below his Sun norms, and hence my statement on profit stands.

People actually overrate how big of an immediate impact Melo's presence had on Amare. Primarily they do so because it just makes sense that the two would have problems together, and they clearly did even before Amare got hurt, I think it's also because of how bizarre the perception was early on in the season. Halfway through the year New York was basically a .500 ballclub yet he was considered the league MVP to that point by the press. I wrote a blog post at the time because of how insane it was.

There was a lot to went into that, including New York staring and its collective Gothamite navel, but the big thing was that Amare had a hot stretch early on which helped generate a narrative of "Woot! Amare's doing it! We finally have a superstar in NY!", and that narrative took a while to dissipate. This can lead to people not remembering that there was months between Amare's hot stretch and Melo's arrival during which the Knicks were sliding down the gutter which was what truly led the franchise to think "holy crap, we're nowhere close to a contender, we have to get Melo now" despite the fact Amare was still healthy.