RealGM Top 100 List #23

[Basketballefan]

Wade was a top 10 player from 05-2012. That's 8 quality seasons, yes he was inured in 07 08 but i think he was still good enough to be top 10. Arguably the league's best player in 06, 09, 2011(mind you i'm not saying he for sure was but there was no clear cut best players those years which is rare), clear top 2 player in 09 & 10. I'm not convinced Frazier was on Wade's level, the numbers indicate that Wade was handily a better player and i don't see the longevity to compensate. I think the Frazier over Wade is based on nostalgia more than anything else. Frazier doesn't have a season anywhere near 09 Wade, i hear how his defense makes him better but I'm skeptical of this, Wade was very good at defense and took over games with his defense and offense just like Frazier.

Like i said the revisionist history is already happening to Wade, he went 22nd in the last project, so since then he's made 3 all star games, won 2 championships and went to 3 finals and it somehow brings him down on the list? It doesn't make any sense at all. The disrespect for Wade needs to stop.

That's the thing though, the injuries are problematic. Can we reasonably credit him for those seasons? 05 probably, because the rib injury isn't a knock on his health. I think the shoulder injury in 07 derailed his season a bit, but it's still a quality year (though we can't project him as arguably the best player since he went down. He had the surgery on his left knee after the year, but I think that definitely prevents 08 from being considered IMO. So I'm willing to concede 7 quality seasons.

I didn't see Frazier live, so it's not nostalgia per se. I do think there is an issue since we don't know how well he'd play defensively today. Hand-checking has been curtailed three times (78-79, 94-95, 04-05) since his prime, so if that was a big part of how he played defense, he loses a good deal of value. Frazier gives you what appear to be 8 quality seasons (68-69 through 76-77, except for 75-76, derailed by a back injury), which is comparable. Wade was a very good defender, and the superior offensive anchor, so if we think Frazier wouldn't be the same offensive player today, I'd agree that Wade has a great case.

As for this being revisionist history, you have to consider a couple of things:

1) The voting pool isn't exactly the same. I for one didn't participate in 2011, and I'm not the only such poster. A bunch of participants from the last project aren't participating this time. Different voters value different things, so even if a guy has done nothing differently, it's entirely possible he might jump/fall compared to the last project.

2) I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't consider accolades when evaluating players, so the all-star games don't mean much to me. I do think 2012 was a quality season, probably the last one of his prime (he could've played at his 2011 level that year if LeBron wasn't on the team IMO), but the last couple of years he's had severe injury problems. Even with strategic resting, he hasn't been able to play at a high level by his standards by the time the Finals have rolled around.

So I will admit that if I consider Frazier I should be considering Wade here. But I don't think either guy is a lock here. It's wide open, but I do think Stockton has a case at this spot.

05 Wade is a little underrated. Yeah i hear you on the rib thing but he still avged 24 5 7 56 TS% in the regular season and 27 6 7 56 TS% in the playoffs, he raised his game in the playoffs 3 years in a row 04-06 as a very young player.

[PaulieWal]

To me Wade has always seemed like an injury prone player who got lucky by catching lightning in a bottle and the tail end of Shaq's prime to win a ring. And he was a very good 2nd fiddle for his latter two rings, but he was clearly the 2nd or 3rd best player on those championship runs. I actually think that bosh was more uniquely indispenable to the Heat than Wade was. I think he'll be in the same level as Pippen and Walton, but neither of them are being discussed at this slot either.

I am not sure I completely understand this post. Wade has one of the best peaks of all time: slightly better than KD and very comparable to LeBron and Kobe. Check my post on the first page of this thread. I understand the injury concerns and they should be counted against him on an all-time ranking list but you are making it seem like he was some player who was never really that good. In his prime, albeit short he was unarguable a top 5 player and is also a good playoff performer. Barring the last two years he has always been good in the playoffs. I don't see what you are seeing at all.

Edit: I am copying SideShowBob's numbers from the previous page, I don't want these numbers to get lost since it is the last post of the page. Wade's peak is comparable with the guys in top 15 easily.

Dwyane Wade had a stretch in 2009 like no other:

2/18/2009 - 3/14/2009 (11 G)
37.2 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 10.4 APG, 2.9SPG, 1.4 BPG, 55.3 FG%, 65.7% TS

Yeah this one is the hardest to top IMO.

Wade 2009, late February-March scoring streak (34.7 GameScore!?)

Code: Select all

G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
11   41.5  38.3   6.3   10.4    3.0    1.3   .654    130    34.7

That has to be the best stretch so far. That's just an unreal 11 game stretch. I've seen Jordan and James with the most extended streaks of a 28+ game score, but this is phenomenal.

There's an 8 game run in there that looks like this

Code: Select all

G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
8    42.5  39.9   6.9   10.4    3.6    1.5   .655    131    36.9

He shoots 50% from 3, puts up an AST% of 48.7%, a USG% of 37.1%, a STL% of 4.5%, and a BLK% of 3.1%, all while putting up 40/7/10/4/2 on 66% TS no less

Here's a more detailed look at that stretch. Includes Miami's performance shifts, 4Factors, and Wade's Box lines.

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2009 Miami Heat

Spoiler:

Full Season

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Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.3     108.5    108.3    0.26    0.24    0.49   +0.5     0.0    +0.6

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.2     107.3    107.0    0.29   -0.14   -0.25   -1.0    -1.0    +0.1

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
91.4     114.6    114.4    0.15    2.07    3.38   +7.5    +5.0    +2.5

Four Factors

Spoiler:

Full Season

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       50.0%      24.6%       11.6%      .212
Defense       50.1%      72.9%       14.0%      .251

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       49.6%      24.5%       11.7%      .212
Defense       49.5%      72.9%       14.2%      .249

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       52.0%      24.5%       11.0%      .234
Defense       53.8%      72.2%       14.4%      .267

Dwyane Wade

Spoiler:

Average and Per 75 possessions

Full Season

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MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.6  30.2  5.0   7.5   40.3%   3.4   11.6%   57.4% +3.0%   36.2%  115
N/A   31.6  5.3   7.8   N/A     3.6   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.0  28.8  4.9   6.9   37.8%   3.3   11.4%   55.6% +1.2%   36.5%  111.6
N/A   30.6  7.3   8.0   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

41.4  37.2  5.9  10.4   50.3%   3.9   12.2%   65.7% +11.3%  36.0%  131
N/A   35.3  5.6   9.9   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

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Miami was able to run a +7.5 offense with Wade playing out of his mind like that.

[ceiling raiser]

05 Wade is a little underrated. Yeah i hear you on the rib thing but he still avged 24 5 7 56 TS% in the regular season and 27 6 7 56 TS% in the playoffs, he raised his game in the playoffs 3 years in a row 04-06 as a very young player.

I agree 100% BTW, not blaming the rib injury on him...I was just pointing out that I'm not holding it against him in evaluation (I do have to hold the knee, and possibly the shoulder against him though, since those are real concerns about his durability). He was doing unspeakable things to the Pistons in the playoffs that year, I'd say he emerged as a superstar and surpassed Shaq during that postseason.

What do you think about Stockton here, compared to Wade?

[Basketballefan]

Wow.

What evidence suggests Bosh was arguably better or more important than Wade in the their title runs? Bosh missed half of the 2012 playoffs while Wade picked up his slack and took over the Indiana series. Wade clearly did more in that run and it's not one bit debatable. In 2013 they both were bad, but Wade was the best player in game 4 of the finals and had 23 10 in game 7 while Bosh went scoreless! Yeah he was so more valuable than Wade,why don't you get your facts before making uninformed statements?

06 was not Prime Shaq. Don't dismiss the fact that Wade decimated the Pistons' defense for 27 6 6 68 TS% and then we know what he did in the finals. So yes, let's act like Shaq carried Wade to a ring.

Lets see Frazier vs Wade peaks:

72 Frazier, 23 7 6 .576 TS% 22 PER
09 Wade 30 5 8 .574 TS% 30 PER while Wade was a top 5 defender in the league that season imo.

So unless you can explain how Walt somehow has enough longevity to make up for the large gap in peaks then i won't be convinced.

Thankyou, you have helped me make up my mind regarding how I will be voting regarding Wade.

I couldn't care less who you vote for.

I'm simply saying it's ignorant to say Wade was arguable a 3rd option on any of his rings and he got "lucky" for having a past prime Shaq. He wasn't lucky, he dominated the playoffs and earned his ring.

[Clyde Frazier]

Like i said the revisionist history is already happening to Wade, he went 22nd in the last project, so since then he's made 3 all star games, won 2 championships and went to 3 finals and it somehow brings him down on the list? It doesn't make any sense at all. The disrespect for Wade needs to stop.

My first vote in this project was for magic at #3. He didn't get voted in til #8. Instead of judging the majority of the voting pool for not voting for magic, I built on my case for him each thread until he got in. I suggest you do the same with wade.

[Basketballefan]

05 Wade is a little underrated. Yeah i hear you on the rib thing but he still avged 24 5 7 56 TS% in the regular season and 27 6 7 56 TS% in the playoffs, he raised his game in the playoffs 3 years in a row 04-06 as a very young player.

I agree 100% BTW, not blaming the rib injury on him...I was just pointing out that I'm not holding it against him in evaluation (I do have to hold the knee, and possibly the shoulder against him though, since those are real concerns about his durability). He was doing unspeakable things to the Pistons in the playoffs that year, I'd say he emerged as a superstar and surpassed Shaq during that postseason.

What do you think about Stockton here, compared to Wade?

Stockton has the much better longevity but i think when comparing their best seasons it's a sizable gap. I value Peak and impactful prime seasons over extended longevity if that makes sense. In other Words Prime wade was so much better than Prime Stockton that the longevity doesn't matter to me. For example, Malone has much better longevity than someone like Bird Or Magic but they were too much better in their Prime/Peak.

After Wade, i would have Barry, Hondo, Baylor, Stockton Nash in no order..then Drexler and Pippen at the lower end of my top 30.

[Basketballefan]

Like i said the revisionist history is already happening to Wade, he went 22nd in the last project, so since then he's made 3 all star games, won 2 championships and went to 3 finals and it somehow brings him down on the list? It doesn't make any sense at all. The disrespect for Wade needs to stop.

My first vote in this project was for magic at #3. He didn't get voted in til #8. Instead of judging the majority of the voting pool for not voting for magic, I built on my case for him each thread until he got in. I suggest you do the same with wade.

I'm trying to but it's like people don't want to hear it.

I keep hearing how injury prone he was which was true but he still had 7-8 elite seasons. He contributed mightily to 3 championships, he was a top 2-5 player for 4 seasons, he has a top 15 peak of all time.

I don't know what else to say.

[PaulieWal]

Like i said the revisionist history is already happening to Wade, he went 22nd in the last project, so since then he's made 3 all star games, won 2 championships and went to 3 finals and it somehow brings him down on the list? It doesn't make any sense at all. The disrespect for Wade needs to stop.

My first vote in this project was for magic at #3. He didn't get voted in til #8. Instead of judging the majority of the voting pool for not voting for magic, I built on my case for him each thread until he got in. I suggest you do the same with wade.

I'm trying to but it's like people don't want to hear it.

I keep hearing how injury prone he was which was true but he still had 7-8 elite seasons. He contributed mightily to 3 championships, he was a top 2-5 player for 4 seasons, he has a top 15 peak of all time.

I don't know what else to say.

I have posted some numbers from SideShowBob to show how dominant his peak was. He wasn't some second fiddle his entire career. His peak is comparable to and arguably better than guys like KD, LBJ, Kobe. His peak was wasted on a pure garbage team. I am not following this project for the rankings and I don't want Wade to become like Kobe once he got out of the Top 10 but the way he is being portrayed by some is inaccurate to say the least.

[90sAllDecade]

I'm not sleeping on Wade, and he's one of my favorites here. I do want to give others a fair shake and hear people out/research the others during this thread.

For one, I'd like to hear anyone's case about Frazier's defensive impact in comparison to Wade. I think offense is more important at the PG or SG position, but there have been very rare exceptions of a PG or wing defensive anchors; like Payton which some are saying Frazier had defense that was comparable (or better?).

I also have been leaning to Nash over Stockton after reading some posts of others here and researching. I have to measure Frazier against them.

I also want to give Havlicek (who I don't know much about) and Baylor a fair analysis, I'll be measuring them against Pippen.

I'll be trying to share info about Mikan and others, but listening to cases.

[DQuinn1575]

They doubled the width of the lane
Mikan then led his team to a 3 peat and didn't whine about rule change.

Seems like he did okay

He dominated the best black players of his time

Best player on 4 nba champs plus baa and nbl -

He's actually penalized by the selection rules

Pre nba leagues don't count - he dominated leagues that would merge into nba

His games against the black globetrotters and any other teams he faced don't count.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Vote for George Mikan

[SactoKingsFan]

I initially had Wade and Pippen as my candidates for this spot, but I added Stockton for his consistent two-way play and impressive longevity/durability. While making my preliminary Top-50 list I downgraded Wade’s career due to significant longevity/durability concerns. However, I’ve recently started to view Wade’s great peak and prime playoff performances as strong enough to make up for his oft cited durability issues. Pippen hasn’t gained any real traction, but I see him as a legit top 25 candidate since he was an extremely versatile defender (arguably GOAT perimeter defender) and had an underrated offensive game/ skill set.

PEAK

Top 5 ASPM Seasons
Stockton: 6.8 (89), 6.4 (90), 6.3 (88), 6.3 (91), 6.2 (92)
Pippen: 6.4 (94), 6.0 (95), 4.7 (97), 4.6 (92), 4.6 (96)
Wade: 9.9 (09), 8.8 (07), 8.3 (10), 7.3 (06), 5.9 (12)

Extended Peak Estimated Impact
Stockton 88-92: 4.2, 4.6, 4.9, 4.3, 4.7
Pippen 92, 94-97: 4.9, 4.8, 4.8, 4.8, 4.6
Wade 06, 09-12: 5.1, 5.9, 5.3, 4.3, 3.8

Extended Peak VORP
Stockton 88-92: 6.3, 7.4, 6.5, 6.8, 6.4
Pippen 92, 94-97: 5.5, 6.1, 6.3, 5.0, 5.6
Wade 06, 09-12: 7.1, 9.3, 7.5, 5.6, 4.2

Best Peak (ASPM, EI, VORP) = Wade
-----

10 Year Prime

10 Year Prime ASPM
88-97 Stockton: 6.3, 6.8, 6.4, 6.3, 6.2, 4.4, 5.6, 4.7, 4.8
91-00 Pippen: 4.2, 4.6, 2.7, 6.4, 6.0, 4.6, 4.7, 4.3, 1.9, 2.4
05-14 Wade: 4.7, 7.3, 8.8, 3.9, 9.9, 8.3, 5.5, 5.9, 4.7, 2.9

10 Year Prime Estimated Impact
88-97 Stockton: 4.2, 4.6, 4.9, 4.3, 4.7, 3.2, 3.9, 4.8, 4.0, 4.1
91-00 Pippen: 4.2, 4.9, 3.2, 4.8, 4.8, 4.8, 4.6, 4.1, 2.1, 2.7
05-14 Wade: 3.9, 5.1, 5.0, 1.3, 5.9, 5.3, 4.3, 3.8, 3.6, 2.1

10 Year Prime VORP
88-97 Stockton: 6.3, 7.4, 6.5, 6.8, 6.4, 4.9, 6.0, 6.0, 5.2, 5.2
91-00 Pippen: 5.0, 5.5, 4.0, 6.1, 6.3, 5.0, 5.6, 2.8, 3.6, 3.3
05-14 Wade: 5.3, 7.1, 5.4, 3.1, 9.3, 7.5, 5.6, 4.2, 4.2, 2.3

Best 10 Year Prime (ASPM, EI, VORP) = Wade/Stockton
-----

Durability
Stockton 10 Year Prime (88-97): 816 GP, 29543 MP
Pippen 10 Year Prime (91-00): 731 GP, 27406 MP
Wade 10 Year Prime (05-14): 658 GP, 24204 MP

Prime Regular Season

Spoiler:

Stockton Prime RS (88-97) per 100: 21.8 PTS, 4.1 TRB, 17.9 AST, 3.9 STL+BLK, 4.7 TOV
Stockton Prime RS (88-97): 22.7 PER, .619 TS%, .418 Ftr, 122 ORtg, 104 DRtg, .221 WS/48

Pippen Extended Prime (91-98) RS Per 100: 27.5 PTS, 10.0 TRB, 8.2 AST, 4.4 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
Pippen Extended Prime (91-98) RS: 21.2 PER, .546 TS%, .286 FTr, 112 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .185 WS/48

Wade Extended Prime (05-13) RS per 100: 36.5 PTS, 7.4 TRB, 8.9 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 5.0 TOV
Wade Extended Prime (05-13) RS: 26.3 PER, .569 TS%, .484 FTr, 112 ORtg, 103 DRtg, .204 WS/48

Best Prime RS = Wade/Stockton

Prime Postseason

Spoiler:

Stockton Prime (88-97) PS Per 100: 21.4 PTS, 4.8 TRB, 16.2 AST, 3.3 STL+BLK, 4.5 TOV
Stockton Prime (88-97) PS: 20.4 PER, .574 TS%, .403 FTr, 117 ORtg, 108 DRtg, .163 WS/48

Pippen Extended Prime (91-98) PS per 100: 26.1 PTS, 10.8 TRB, 7.5 AST, 4.1 STL+BLK, 4.1 TOV
Pippen Extended Prime (91-98) PS: 19.5 PER, .521 TS%, .370 FTr, 109 ORtg, 101 DRtg, .157 WS/48

Wade Prime PS (05-12) Per 100: 35.2 PTS, 7.8 TRB, 7.1 AST, 4.0 STL+BLK, 5.0 TOV
Wade Prime PS (05-12): 24.9 PER, .565 TS%, .463 FTr, 110 ORtg, 102 DRtg, .193 WS/48

Best Prime PS = Wade

-----

Conclusion
Pippen clearly ends up looking like the least impressive candidate. His rebounding edge, GOAT level perimeter defense and defensive versatility just aren’t enough to overcome Wade and Stockton’s superior peaks and primes. I still consider Pippen a Top 25 candidate, but I’ll probably end up supporting Stockton before I vote for Pippen.

Stockton’s consistent two-way play, efficient scoring, great longevity/durability and passing makes him more comparable to Wade than I had initially expected. However, I think Wade’s clear edge as a playoff performer and top 10-15 peak are enough to take the overall edge over Stockton.

Vote #23: Dwyane Wade

[SactoKingsFan]

Wade Highlights from 06 Finals:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEyo2P5dgec[/youtube]

Per Game: 43.5 MP, 34.7 PTS, 7.8 TRB, 3.8 AST, 3.7 STL+BLK

.572 TS%, 36.9 USG%, 113 ORtg, 97 DRtg

[Joao Saraiva]

Looking at the arguments right now I'd say Mikan, Wade and Nash are all good options.

Between Nash and Wade I'd go with Wade. I think his peak was really impressive, much more than Nash, and that's something I really value. 2006 was amazing and ended up with historic ECF performances and the better finals performance ever (33.8 PER, for example Michael Jordan, the GOAT, never came close to that!).

Wade has no MVP award unlike Nash, but I would argue Wade's 09 regular season was better than any Nash regular season, He just happened to be competing against one of the greatest runs in LeBron's career.

Also Wade is one of the best defensive guards ever, his steals and blocks are at great numbers and they really speak for Wade's defense. Do people really think Nash's impact is on offense is that much better than Wade's to make him go ahead in an all time list? Because I can see an argument for Nash being more impactful (I wouldn't really agree but ok) but even with that I don't see such great margin between them.

[Jaivl]

Not decided yet on my vote. Lots of great candidates. My top 3 are maybe Wade, Nash and Stockton. Still gonna wait a bit to vote.

2006 was amazing and ended up with historic ECF performances and the better finals performance ever (33.8 PER, for example Michael Jordan, the GOAT, never came close to that!).

Well...

Wade '06: 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 2.7 steals, 3.7 turnovers on 57.2 TS%
Jordan '93: 41.0 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.7 assists, 1.7 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 55.8 TS%

[FJS]

John Stockton
Wicked prime; from '88 thru '97 (10 seasons in which he missed FOUR GAMES TOTAL).......
Per 100 rs: 21.8 pts, 4.1 reb, 17.9 ast, 3.6 stl, 4.7 tov on .619 TS%
22.7 PER, .221 WS/48, 122 ORtg/104 DRtg in 36.2 mpg
Per 100 ps: 21.4 pts, 4.8 reb, 16.2 ast, 2.8 stl, 4.5 tov on .574 TS%
20.4 PER, .163 WS/48, 117 ORtg/108 DRtg in 39.0 mpg

And fwiw, the only reason I'm declaring '97 the end to his prime is because '97 was the final season in which he was playing "star level" minutes. His level of play otherwise didn't really decline significantly: from '88 on (the last SIXTEEN seasons of his career, right down to the bitter end), he NEVER had a season with a PER <21; he had only 2 seasons out of 16 with a WS/48 <.200; he had TWO seasons in his post-prime with the league's best ORtg (while also only having TWO seasons of his final six which I am calling his "post-prime" in which his DRtg was worse than league average). For impact stats, we only have data for these years that I am classifying as his post-prime, and yet the results could be construed as "eye-opening" to say the least. Here is his league rank in combined PI RAPM for each year:
'98--->7th
'99--->8th
'00--->8th
*'01--->3rd (*NPI)
'02--->12th
'03--->13th

Dude has left a massive statistical footprint on the game......
#1 all-time in career rs assists and steals, and has such a sizable lead in both that these are records none of us are likely to see broken in our lifetimes: has 3,715 more assists than the 2nd-place guy, 581 more steals than the 2nd-place guy. Is #5 all-time in career rs win shares.
Is #2 all-time in career playoff assists and #4 in career playoff steals, too; #16 all-time in career playoff WS. He's also inside the top 50 all-time in career rs points, inside top 40 in career playoff points.

Anyway, he's got a more than credible resume for the spot, and really should be gaining a lot of traction now that we're out of the top 20, imo.

As Trex said, plus:
All-NBA First Team (1994, '95);
All-NBA Second Team (1988, '89, '90, '92, '93, '96);
All-NBA Third Team (1991, '97, '99);
All-Defensive Second Team (1989, '91, '92, '95, '97);
10-time NBA All-Star;
Olympic gold medalist (1992, '96);
One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96)

Lead the league in total assists and apg in 9 years in a row. (87-88 to 95-96)
- Only 3 players have assisted 1000 assits in a single season = Isiah Thomas, Kevin Porter did it once each other. John Stockton did it 7 times.

- Led the league in steals in 89 and 92.

5th of all time in Win Shares
5th of all time in Offensive win shares
4th in Offensive ratings
9th in true shooting pct.

Led the league in total assists 15806, 3700 more than the second (J.Kidd) and 5500 more than Steve Nash... you can't argue about longetivy, Kidd played as well 19 seasons and Nash 18.
This is right now an unbreakable record

Led the league in total steals 3265, being Kidd second, with 600 less. The next players in active are Kobe, KG, Marion, Artest or Pierce... all near to retire and even have not arrived to 1900...

This is how really difficult and unmatchable Stockton carreer is.

My vote goes to John Stockton

My vote to 23 spot is John Stockton

[DannyNoonan1221]

The dismissal of wade is unjustifiable. If you dont think he deserves the spot fine but to say hes not even worthy of mention is ridiculous. Wade is getting criminally underrated in this project.

Wade is very difficult to evaluate. He was a monster in his prime (probably my favorite player to watch after Shaq started to decline), but longevity is a real concern here. I used to have him above a few guys who already have been selected, but I don't know if that's reasonable anymore.

Let me ask you this...how many quality seasons are we crediting him with here?

04 - rookie season
05 - solid year, got hurt in the playoffs after looking amazing
06 - great year
07 - looked great before going down (not a big box score stats guy, but he was at 28.8/4.8/7.9 on 58.9 TS% pre-injury)
08 - injuries
09 - great year
10 - great year
11 - great year
12 - solid year
13 - solid year, hurt in playoffs
14 - injuries, had nothing left in the Finals

It's a tough call IMO.

Not questioning your reasoning, just trying to sort this out. Who did you have him over that has already been selected? Did it change because of what the other player did or because Wade started getting hurt?

[DannyNoonan1221]

Also, I believe Wade's peak is very high.

But a few people are focusing on an eleven game stretch. 11 games?! to me that is ridiculous. Yes it is impressive, but even as wade supporters you are doing him a disservice by shrinking his peak to 11 games. 11 games aren't going to have much pull here when trying to get traction for him. Talk about his peak in a single season, or 3 to 4 year stretch like the other players have been analyzed.

While impressive, 11 games is EXTREMELY small.

[Jim Naismith]

Also, I believe Wade's peak is very high.

But a few people are focusing on an eleven game stretch. 11 games?! to me that is ridiculous. Yes it is impressive, but even as wade supporters you are doing him a disservice by shrinking his peak to 11 games. 11 games aren't going to have much pull here when trying to get traction for him. Talk about his peak in a single season, or 3 to 4 year stretch like the other players have been analyzed.

While impressive, 11 games is EXTREMELY small.

Baylor seems to be out of the conversation suddenly. It seems he's comparable to Wade, except Baylor has a longevity edge of 127 more games. (Perhaps it's because his peak coincided with the primes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, and Pettit.)

Baylor 1960-63
RS: 33.8 ppg, 17.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, 26.7 PER
PS: 35.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 4.1 apg, 26.7 PER

My perception is that Baylor and Wade are in the same tier as scorers, with Baylor being a much better rebounder.

[Basketballefan]

Also, I believe Wade's peak is very high.

But a few people are focusing on an eleven game stretch. 11 games?! to me that is ridiculous. Yes it is impressive, but even as wade supporters you are doing him a disservice by shrinking his peak to 11 games. 11 games aren't going to have much pull here when trying to get traction for him. Talk about his peak in a single season, or 3 to 4 year stretch like the other players have been analyzed.

While impressive, 11 games is EXTREMELY small.

Baylor seems to be out of the conversation suddenly. It seems he's comparable to Wade, except Baylor has a longevity edge of 127 more games. (Perhaps it's because his peak coincided with the primes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, and Pettit.)

Baylor 1960-63
RS: 33.8 ppg, 17.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, 26.7 PER
PS: 35.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 4.1 apg, 26.7 PER

My perception is that Baylor and Wade are in the same tier as scorers, with Baylor being a much better rebounder.

He should be conisdering he's a small forward and Wade is a guard. Wade is a far better playmaker and evidence suggets he's a better defender too.

[Jim Naismith]

Baylor seems to be out of the conversation suddenly. It seems he's comparable to Wade, except Baylor has a longevity edge of 127 more games. (Perhaps it's because his peak coincided with the primes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, and Pettit.)

Baylor 1960-63
RS: 33.8 ppg, 17.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, 26.7 PER
PS: 35.8 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 4.1 apg, 26.7 PER

My perception is that Baylor and Wade are in the same tier as scorers, with Baylor being a much better rebounder.

He should be conisdering he's a small forward and Wade is a guard. Wade is a far better playmaker and evidence suggets he's a better defender too.

Height
Baylor 6' 5" (1.95 m)
Wade 6' 4" (1.93 m)