The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[Sunsdeuce]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[RunDogGun]

yeah. at this point we will have to budge a little on the stance of not overpaying guys. it's just gonna have to be the case. if the champion spurs are giving Parker around $15mill a year, who are we to say that we're above overpaying EB?

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

[LukasBMW]

A team of (down the road):

Bledsoe/Dragic/Warren/Amare/Plumlee
IT/Green/Tucker/Morris/Len
Ennis/Morris

That would be great. We are one good big draft pick away from having a great and fun team that can compete.

And that's a much deeper team then the Marion/Amare/Nash + garbage days. Or even Marion/Nash/Hill/Amare.

Assuming Warren comes along and we can get a Blake/Amare/Bosh prime kinda guy, we are a top 5 team.

The bench alone could go .500

[Saberestar]

yeah. at this point we will have to budge a little on the stance of not overpaying guys. it's just gonna have to be the case. if the champion spurs are giving Parker around $15mill a year, who are we to say that we're above overpaying EB?

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

[LukasBMW]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

New York finally has a huge expiring deal and they can't hang on to it. LOL.

[spanishninja]

yeah. at this point we will have to budge a little on the stance of not overpaying guys. it's just gonna have to be the case. if the champion spurs are giving Parker around $15mill a year, who are we to say that we're above overpaying EB?

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

especially since most NBA contracts are awarded based on potential returns and not prior accomplishments (Kobe and Wade being exceptions).

[Christine-In-AZ]

Honestly, I would give Bledsoe near max. And roll the dice on his knees. He and Dragic nearly got us to the playoffs. Were he there a full season he could have made an all NBA team. These are not Amare's knees. He is an elite defender. And he ain't **** turrible on offense either.

I think I would too. If Bledsoe was another team's free agent, I think we would have considered this in order to pry him away. There are the "principles" of negotiating, but then there is also the potential you lose in the end. While signing IT was a great move for the money, I think it has muddied this whole negotiation some.

I think the Suns were willing to go here too, but when he asked for 5/80, well.

I don't get either of your rationales.

"If Bledsoe was another team's free agent, I think we would have considered this in order to pry him away"

So a Suns team with PGs Dragic, Thomas and a 1st round pick Ennis in place would've been viewed by you as smart to offer Clipper's Bledsoe a max contract? My guess is this board would be questioning our FO sanity if we were targeting an "outside" additional PG for the max.

"Honestly, I would give Bledsoe near max. And roll the dice on his knees"

You give him near max and he is 100% yours, good, bad or broken for 5 years...well for at least 2.5. The idea to me is to get Bledsoe at a reasonable (Read:tradeable) number/years. Even at 4 years/12 per it's rolling the dice, but at least there is an immediate possibility (well, by mid-season) to explore tons of trade options that could lift this team to the next level, by improving the front court. Other teams are not going to consider trading anything good for a 5 year/near maxed out Bledsoe for a long time. And if he "breaks" in the next few years the Suns plans would be crippled.

Why again did we draft a 1st round PG and then signed another quality PG? To enhance the team to be sure, but more importantly for leverage in Bledsoe contract talks which should lead to greater trade flexibility/possibilities.

A Suns "giving in" would be crapping on their own "construction".

[jcsunsfan]

Honestly, I would give Bledsoe near max. And roll the dice on his knees. He and Dragic nearly got us to the playoffs. Were he there a full season he could have made an all NBA team. These are not Amare's knees. He is an elite defender. And he ain't **** turrible on offense either.

I think I would too. If Bledsoe was another team's free agent, I think we would have considered this in order to pry him away. There are the "principles" of negotiating, but then there is also the potential you lose in the end. While signing IT was a great move for the money, I think it has muddied this whole negotiation some.

I think the Suns were willing to go here too, but when he asked for 5/80, well.

I don't get either of your rationales.

"If Bledsoe was another team's free agent, I think we would have considered this in order to pry him away"

So a Suns team with PGs Dragic, Thomas and a 1st round pick Ennis in place would've been viewed by you as smart to offer Clipper's Bledsoe a max contract? My guess is this board would be questioning our FO sanity if we were targeting an "outside" additional PG for the max.

.

You never let present depth at a position discourage you from signing star talent at a position. Bledsoe's ability to play both ways, his clutch play, his chemistry with Goran, and his ability to make other players like Plumlee better put him on that level.

Dragic is a star, Thomas is a rotation player, Ennis is nothing yet at all, and might well be nothing ever. There is no way in the world that Ennis' presence on the roster should have anything to do whatsoever with the Suns signing Bledsoe. Thomas is going to be points off the bench. He has huge defensive limitations as an every day starter on a quality team. Goran can't play both guard positions at the same time.

I do think that the Suns signed IT and drafted Ennis because of trade potential. They can be traded, but they also gave the Suns options to do a S&T with Bledsoe without going thin at pg. They could have picked up a star level player at another position. It is very possible that the Suns FO was suprised by the lack of interest in Bledsoe, and maybe a little discouraged by it.

[King4Day]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

If we have the room, I'd absorb him and a cheap asset for something minor if they want to dump him. No reason to restrict it to just Philly being involved.

[phrazbit]

For me I would do 5/66 ish. Team option 5th year. Front Loaded as much as humany possible.

I think with Dragic/Bledsoe locked down on similar deals we then focus on the draft. We have our sixth man (IT). We just need a good big to compete.

If Bledsoe played the full year and we had talent equating to what we have drafted before (Amare, Marion, etc). Trade some our young talent for future picks to keep reloading.

We got both Marion and Amara with the 9th pick respectively.

A team of (down the road):

Bledsoe/Dragic/Warren/Amare/Plumlee
IT/Green/Tucker/Morris/Len
Ennis/Morris

That would be great. We are one good big draft pick away from having a great and fun team that can compete.

Let's face it we are not going to get a superstar. The only way you gets prime stars longterm through free agency are if you have Lebron or if you are in NY, Cali, Chicago, and maybe Texas.

The best way to keep a star is to build a reationship afer you DRAFT them: (Dirk, Duncan, etc.) Sometimes you get lucky and a non-star does a career turnaround (Dragic) and you can snag them in trades but that is the exception.

Might as well lock our stars down and not let them go. We are not bring them in.

Amare? Is that a typo? Please tell me its a typo.

And teams trade for superstars plenty. You need to build up the assets but drafting is not the "only" way for a non-NY/LA team to land a superstar.

[thamadkant]

Parker getting 15 million a year is justified because he took less than his market value in the past and technically he is the most if not among the efficiency leaders at the PG position in the last 3-4 seasons.

Plus he is so valuable for the Spurs system.


Bledsoe ... If it was me offering contracts I would offer 4 years 54-56 million and call it a day. Team option 4th.
Dragic ... 5 year 65 million.

The suns need other spots to be reinforced so I'd rather spend real max on a PF or a SF star sometime in 2015-2016 seasons.

[bwgood77]

yeah. at this point we will have to budge a little on the stance of not overpaying guys. it's just gonna have to be the case. if the champion spurs are giving Parker around $15mill a year, who are we to say that we're above overpaying EB?

Parker has earned it by playing at a high level for them, being a six time all star and staying with them for 11 years before getting that deal. That's a little different than a guy who played a half season at a very high level and has had two knee surgeries.

[thamadkant]

1. Jennings on a PG/SG friendly system could be a much more efficient player, he has the offensive arsenal, but lacks efficiency. But in a "free reign" system, who knows.

2. Defensively, anyone replacing Bledsoe outside of the elite defensive PGs is a downgrade...
In any case, if any trade (Bledsoe out), I rather get a "big" SG/SF who can defend, hence that Taj/Butler trade was pretty good in the trade forum, but it doesnt make sense for Bulls, since then they'll have 2 PGs with questionable knees... assuming Bulls rather get Bledsoe than trade him to a 3rd team. In any case, they'll likely request another big back... Randolph lol.

He really does not have the offensive arsenal. He merely shoots a lot.



Thats the shot chart from his career. His shot chart from last year is no better.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=201943

There is no where on the court that he is above average as a scorer and a TON of places where he is dreadful... but cranks up an avalanche of bad shots despite that fact. This is why I dont think its a system problem. This is not a guy who is merely playing outside his strengths and needs to be reigned in, he has no strengths as a shooter, and shooting/scoring is where his supposed value comes from.

He is a league replacement level player who got lucky when the Pistons... a team with a history of paying out the nose for replacement level talent, decided to pursue him when no one else really had an interest.

-Many players who showed good production on the Suns but dropped off a lot on other teams. I seriously think free reign on PG/SG system can help. Recent examples: Dudley, Gerald Green.

- Jennings is on a "cheap" contract, aka like Thomas's contract.

- I'm a stats guy and I understand the shot graph you've posted, but it shows results and not process/methodology. Jennings under coach that uses him correctly will likely improve his process/methods hence improving his results. This is just my speculation mainly because he has displayed he can score and has skills.m
In any case it doesn't matter what we think... It's what Hornacek and McD thinks.

[bwgood77]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

If we have the room, I'd absorb him and a cheap asset for something minor if they want to dump him. No reason to restrict it to just Philly being involved.

I just looked at NY's cap situation and it makes zero sense for them to get rid of him at the deadline because it doesn't put them under the cap. The only reason to trade him would be to get far enough under the cap to be able to take back more salary in a trade before the deadline. It makes no sense for them to give up assets to get rid of him mid season unless they can also trade a few other salaries away.

That article was based on the thoughts and comments of Steve Kyler who is pretty much an idiot.

[Sunsdeuce]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

If we have the room, I'd absorb him and a cheap asset for something minor if they want to dump him. No reason to restrict it to just Philly being involved.

I just looked at NY's cap situation and it makes zero sense for them to get rid of him at the deadline because it doesn't put them under the cap. The only reason to trade him would be to get far enough under the cap to be able to take back more salary in a trade before the deadline. It makes no sense for them to give up assets to get rid of him mid season unless they can also trade a few other salaries away.
That article was based on the thoughts and comments of Steve Kyler who is pretty muchan idiot.

Didn't see that kyler was the writer. Oh well, nevermind than.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[JDLAW]

Parker getting 15 million a year is justified because he took less than his market value in the past and technically he is the most if not among the efficiency leaders at the PG position in the last 3-4 seasons.

Plus he is so valuable for the Spurs system.


Bledsoe ... If it was me offering contracts I would offer 4 years 54-56 million and call it a day. Team option 4th.
Dragic ... 5 year 65 million.

The suns need other spots to be reinforced so I'd rather spend real max on a PF or a SF star sometime in 2015-2016 seasons.

Don't think you'd give Bledsoe more $$ on avg than Dragic. Maybe you have the numbers mixed up.

[JTrain]

Goran can't play both guard positions at the same time.

You don't know this.

[Frank Lee]

Suppose we worked out a deal with the Bucks..... And it involved Dudley. Would it be the first time players have been traded for each other twice???

[JDLAW]

How many chips did Parker help bring to SA? I think Parker has earned his money, and that example doesn't support budging on our stance. To me, it supports the opposite.

Who do you prefer on your team for the next 3 or 4 years?Bledsoe or Parker?I think Bledsoe has the same value than Parker at least.

especially since most NBA contracts are awarded based on potential returns and not prior accomplishments (Kobe and Wade being exceptions).

You're correct in stating that most contracts are awarded on potential returns as opposed to past accomplishments. The problem for young players like Bledsoe is that the team does not know just what the potential return, they lack the crystal ball to see the future. Therefore the team has to use past data, player comparisons, past accomplishments, etc… to predict the potential return. The team also has to consider the market, its other needs, available substitutes (alternate ways to use resources), potential for injury, in determining what to offer a player. Unfortunately, many of these factors are not amenable to objective measurement. Even the advances stats some like to throw out can be misleading.

This is why an agent like Paul can interpret these factors one way and come up with a very different value than a team like the Suns who can use the same information and come up with a markedly different value. If there is to be a compromise, each side has to acknowledge the merits of the other side's position and be willing to adjust its own position accordingly.

[SideSwipe]

@ericsports: Sixers likely to acquire Stoudemire before trade deadline http://t.co/t5Q07593vG


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

If we have the room, I'd absorb him and a cheap asset for something minor if they want to dump him. No reason to restrict it to just Philly being involved.

I just looked at NY's cap situation and it makes zero sense for them to get rid of him at the deadline because it doesn't put them under the cap. The only reason to trade him would be to get far enough under the cap to be able to take back more salary in a trade before the deadline. It makes no sense for them to give up assets to get rid of him mid season unless they can also trade a few other salaries away.

That article was based on the thoughts and comments of Steve Kyler who is pretty much an idiot.

Someone out there correct me if I am wrong, but CAP is only for signing new contracts, all other metrics are based on actual salary. So, while Kyler doesn't seemt o fully get it, I think the reasoning behind such a trade would be to reduce the tax load on NYK. BY eliminating that last 7 million of Stats salary they could be saving themselves as much as $21 million I think as a multi-year tax payer. That's a lot of reasons to trade him.

On the flip side, however, simply acquiring Stat at that point in the season will not eliminate Philly's need to get to the salary floor. I believe (again, correct me if I'm wrong) the salary floor is based on actual salary, not cap, so taking Stat back would only get Philly 1/3rd of the way to the floor. In that case the rest of the team would pocket the extra $14-$15 million that would be left over.

That's how I understand it works. Not sure if I have it all straight though.