RealGM Top 100 List #25

[magicmerl]

I can't really think of any PG besides Magic that I would attempt to build my team around and make them a contender. Basketball is a game of height and a PG isn't going to help the team enough on offense to make them serious contenders.

It's pretty clear that this is entirely false.

I disagree, because of the short supply of tall people, there's much greater variance among tall players than short ones.

Worldwide there are something in the range of 2-3000 7ft tall people. If we restrict that to the age of an NBA player (20-40) that probably halves. Last season there were 47 7ft tall players in the NBA. So roughly 0.03% of all men that tall are good enough to play in the NBA. If you look at 6ft tall players, there's so many more of them in the world, that a much smaller percentage of players that tall can actually make it into the NBA, making for much less variance between individual players. Put another way, the 'average' point guard in the NBA is much much closer to the top point guard in terms of skill variance than the 'average' center in the NBA is from the best center.

I'd much rather have the best center in the league and a league average point guard, than the best point guard in the NBA and a league average center.

[tsherkin]

I disagree, because of the short supply of tall people, there's much greater variance among tall players than short ones.

Worldwide there are something in the range of 2-3000 7ft tall people. If we restrict that to the age of an NBA player (20-40) that probably halves. Last season there were 47 7ft tall players in the NBA. So roughly 0.03% of all men that tall are good enough to play in the NBA. If you look at 6ft tall players, there's so many more of them in the world, that a much smaller percentage of players that tall can actually make it into the NBA, making for much less variance between individual players. Put another way, the 'average' point guard in the NBA is much much closer to the top point guard in terms of skill variance than the 'average' center in the NBA is from the best center.

I'd much rather have the best center in the league and a league average point guard, than the best point guard in the NBA and a league average center.

I'm not saying anything about PGs in general. I'm saying G35 is specifically wrong to make that comment when Nash has directly proven him incorrect, as an individual. Not as a rule to extend to other PGs. I dont' care about the average PG when we're talking specifically about a given player, yes?

[Basketballefan]

Through #239

12 Steve Nash - RSCD3_, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, tsherkin, colts18, DQuinn1575, PCProductions, Jim Naismith, Ryoga Hibiki, Quotatious, GC Pantalones, john248
11 John Stockton - trex_8063, FJS, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, magicmer1, Ray-Ban Sematra, penbeast0, JordansBulls, batmana, Chuck Texas, Owly

i voted stockton

[penbeast0]

12 Steve Nash - RSCD3_, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, tsherkin, colts18, DQuinn1575, PCProductions, Jim Naismith, Ryoga Hibiki, Quotatious, GC Pantalones, john248
12 John Stockton - trex_8063, FJS, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, magicmer1, Ray-Ban Sematra, penbeast0, JordansBulls, batmana, Chuck Texas, Owly, Basketballefan

OUR FIRST SUDDEN DEATH . . . NEXT AUTHORIZED VOTE WINS (even if I don't come in and see it right away).

[Doctor MJ]

Who are we missing from last thread?

[Texas Chuck]

12 Steve Nash - RSCD3_, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, tsherkin, colts18, DQuinn1575, PCProductions, Jim Naismith, Ryoga Hibiki, Quotatious, GC Pantalones, john248
12 John Stockton - trex_8063, FJS, SactoKingsFan, Clyde Frazier, magicmer1, Ray-Ban Sematra, penbeast0, JordansBulls, batmana, Chuck Texas, Owly, Basketballefan

OUR FIRST SUDDEN DEATH . . . NEXT AUTHORIZED VOTE WINS (even if I don't come in and see it right away).

This is quite fitting that it's this close between these two great PGs.

[SactoKingsFan]

Who are we missing from last thread?

Moonbeam and Lorak

[magicmerl]

I'm not saying anything about PGs in general. I'm saying G35 is specifically wrong to make that comment when Nash has directly proven him incorrect, as an individual. Not as a rule to extend to other PGs. I dont' care about the average PG when we're talking specifically about a given player, yes?

Do you really think that having Nash made the Suns (or any team) suddenly a contender or even favourites to win a championship? There was no year when I thought that they were favoured to win the finals or even make them.

I put those suns teams as needing a whole lot of talent from a whole lot of different pieces in order to contend. Which makes their team much more fragile to maintain, as indeed Joe Johnson forced his way out.

I might be an extreme minority, but I'd rather have had Jason Kidd or Tony Parker on my championship contending team than Nash.

[Narigo]

vote: Steve Nash


Stockton is a great player who plays well both sides of the court but I dont think he was a better player than guys like Scottie Pippen and Clyde Drexler.

I think Nash is a bit easier to build around because he was more assertive in scoring than Stockton was. Even though Stockton has more longevity as a star player than Nash, I think Nash peak and prime was higher than Stockton because of his offensive impact.

[penbeast0]

There it is!

(I guess this means the Mikan pick was legit and not just an anti-Nash referendum like suggested . . . he goes in the next slot)

[Warspite]

Nash

I believe Nash did more in his career 2 time MVP and great regular season player. I wouldnt want either to be my PG as they both lack intangibles to be winners but with Nash you have more flexibility.

What? "Lack the intangibles to be winners?"

What does that even mean? There's nothing lacking in Stockton from an intangibles perspective; his weaknesses are all fairly clearly defined, as are Nash's. Meantime, how many games per season did the Jazz win during his prime? How many playoff victories do they have from his playing career? Yeah, he didn't title and yeah, he's not a top 10 player of all-time, but that's a little bit harsh given his career achievements, IMO.

Please stop arguing that the sky is red just to try to bait others. Its beneath you.

[lorak]

Who are we missing from last thread?

Moonbeam and Lorak

I didn't vote here, because I'm not anymore sure that Nash>Stockton, but I'm also not convinced yet, that John was better.

[tsherkin]

Please stop arguing that the sky is red just to try to bait others. Its beneath you.

Warspite, stop and think for a second. You made a statement without evidence and I called you on it, and was not the only one to do so. I don't want to bait you; I in no way want an emotional, unreasoned response from you.

Rather, I would like an explanation besides "he didn't make the Finals/win a ring" which elaborates on your statement that both of those players "lacked the intangibles to win."

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Career scoring numbers:

One guy is 13 ppg on 61% TS for his career
One guy is 14 ppg on 61% TS for his career

Is this one point a game really that huge of an advantage?

after all this discussion you really want to bring up this?

[Texas Chuck]

Career scoring numbers:

One guy is 13 ppg on 61% TS for his career
One guy is 14 ppg on 61% TS for his career

Is this one point a game really that huge of an advantage?

after all this discussion you really want to bring up this?

Sometimes I think we get lost in the details. Im hardly trying to make this the crux of a case, but again just trying to show that Stockton wasn't really a tier below Nash as a scorer especially not when you combine the career averages with all the other evidence posted in this regard.

But congrats to Nash here. A great player and the panel has spoken that he deserves this spot. It's good enough for me.

[G35]

I disagree, because of the short supply of tall people, there's much greater variance among tall players than short ones.

Worldwide there are something in the range of 2-3000 7ft tall people. If we restrict that to the age of an NBA player (20-40) that probably halves. Last season there were 47 7ft tall players in the NBA. So roughly 0.03% of all men that tall are good enough to play in the NBA. If you look at 6ft tall players, there's so many more of them in the world, that a much smaller percentage of players that tall can actually make it into the NBA, making for much less variance between individual players. Put another way, the 'average' point guard in the NBA is much much closer to the top point guard in terms of skill variance than the 'average' center in the NBA is from the best center.

I'd much rather have the best center in the league and a league average point guard, than the best point guard in the NBA and a league average center.

I'm not saying anything about PGs in general. I'm saying G35 is specifically wrong to make that comment when Nash has directly proven him incorrect, as an individual. Not as a rule to extend to other PGs. I dont' care about the average PG when we're talking specifically about a given player, yes?

Nash has proven me right in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010......