RealGM Top 100 List #26

[penbeast0]

For his career, Gilmore averaged 3.1 turnovers (to a relatively low 2.4 assists). Zo is at 2.6 turnovers (but only 1.1 assists!), Dwight Howard is currently also at 3.1 turnovers (but only 1.5 assists), and Deke is by far the lowest turnover rate at 1.8 career but by far the lowest usage and only 1.0 assists.

I don't think you can slam Artis for his playmaking/passing if these are the alternatives. He has by far the HIGHEST assist rate and the best assist/turnover rate as well. We are not comparing Gilmore to Duncan or Shaq or Kareem or Wilt, we are comparing him to the second tier players named above. (P.S. Patrick Ewing averaged 3.1 turnovers to only 1.9 assists so he was statistically a worse passer than Gilmore too)

Note that this isn't a good measure of a player's hands, it's about what they do with the ball after they catch it. I always felt that the big difference for Artis (both offensively and defensively) between his Kentucky days and his Chicago days (for some reason I don't remember him much in San Antonio) was that in Kentucky, they had him set out higher both offensively and defensively and he seemed much more active on both ends. In Chicago, they set him up deep in the low post on both ends much more often and he seemed more passive (this works with his stats as his usage rates decreased and his fg% skyrocketed -- whether you think he was more effective in the ABA or NBA is up to you -- I don't think the tradeoff was worth it though it may have been forced by knee injuries or lessened mobility).

[Texas Chuck]

With the exception of those 3 assists, Artis Gilmore seems a lot like a better version of Erick Dampier. Massively strong, good defender, good rebounder particularly on the offensive end. Terrible hands that meant passes had to be delivered more precisely but once he got the ball was quite efficient at getting it in the basket.

Now obviously he's a much better player, but would you agree that Erick Dampier is a reasonable stylistic comparison to give some of the younger posters an idea of how he played?

[DQuinn1575]

[So altogether now:

Gilmore had the better peak by the estimation of most
And he had a longer duration as a big minute player, continuing to play in a way signaling likely impact
And overall he just played a lot more racking up a lot o' numbers.

So yeah, at least among these guys, Gilmore's definitely the next pick.

McAdoo - mvp
Cowens- mvp
Reed - mvp
Walton - mvp
Unseld - mvp
Lanier - 3rd in mvp voting - behind Jabbar and Cowens
Gilmore - 8th in mvp voting

Highest peak by most ??- not anyone watching at the time.

I just have a hard time taking a guy who was top 10 player in the league 3 times and considering him for Top 30 of all-time.

Played a long time - yes, 2nd to the Chief in guys that are left. If the goal is simply to reward guys who played a long time at a good level, the Artis and Parish are your guys.

Artis has these impressive numbers -
62% TS, 18% Reb, 3.6% Block %

So does Tyson Chandler -

http://bkref.com/tiny/fUTUl

[Jim Naismith]

I'm voting for Kevin Durant

Durant voters,

I'd like to hear about how he compares with two other small forwards: Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry.

[Quotatious]

Artis has these impressive numbers -
62% TS, 18% Reb, 3.6% Block %

So does Tyson Chandler -

http://bkref.com/tiny/fUTUl

What is that supposed to prove? Chandler's minutes played and scoring volume doesn't compare - Artis averaged more than twice as many points as Tyson, there's really no comparison, at all. Gilmore was someone who could be your #2 scoring option, I don't know why you disregard his scoring VOLUME+efficiency (as opposed to just efficiency for Chandler).

[Texas Chuck]

My biggest issue with regards to Artis is how much his performance seems to drop after the merger. Some of that I guess is to be expected, but its a factor for me currently. I'd listen to arguments for why I shouldn't be as bothered by it tho.

[Owly]

[So altogether now:

Gilmore had the better peak by the estimation of most
And he had a longer duration as a big minute player, continuing to play in a way signaling likely impact
And overall he just played a lot more racking up a lot o' numbers.

So yeah, at least among these guys, Gilmore's definitely the next pick.

McAdoo - mvp
Cowens- mvp
Reed - mvp
Walton - mvp
Unseld - mvp
Lanier - 3rd in mvp voting - behind Jabbar and Cowens
Gilmore - 8th in mvp voting

Highest peak by most ??- not anyone watching at the time.

I just have a hard time taking a guy who was top 10 player in the league 3 times and considering him for Top 30 of all-time.

Played a long time - yes, 2nd to the Chief in guys that are left. If the goal is simply to reward guys who played a long time at a good level, the Artis and Parish are your guys.

Artis has these impressive numbers -
62% TS, 18% Reb, 3.6% Block %

So does Tyson Chandler -

http://bkref.com/tiny/fUTUl

Assuming that ABA counts for absolutely nothing sure. But he does have an MVP over (rookie) Erving and Rick Barry (at 27; also Zelmo Beatty and Mel Daniels at the C position). He was percieved (by some) as disappointing in part based on that first year in the NBA where for the start of the seaons he was apparently played away from the low post and wasn't getting shots; and I guess in part because he was so good in his first ABA year that it was hard to see him seemingly didn't improve. Nonetheless there's not a like there isn't anecdotal stuff for him (from the '75 Hollander Pro Basketball Yearbook, Dick McGuire (then a scout with the Knicks) called him the (pro) game's best defensive center (these books have a continuing motif of "he's underrated") and Moses said he played him best
Thought I'd look into that
from '83, the first year we have single game fga, Gilmore aged 33, through to '87 Gilmore's penultimate year, his last year he was very washed up and wasn't playing enough minutes for the matchup to mean anything, Gilmore got 14.7 ppg on 55.3398058 fg%, 0.602605863 TS%, 9rpg in 31.8mpg; Moses got 23.7 on 45.5497382 fg%, 0.51882662 12.8rpg in 37.4mpg. Gilmore 2.2bpg, Malone 1.1bpg.

How you call those matchups would depend on non-boxscore D, and how you value efficiency, it's a small sample, etc etc. Still with GIlmore significantly above average, and Moses below and Artis blocking more shots if you call it even that's not bad to say where they were in their careers.

And still those some of MVPs listed of those centers are pretty dubious (Cowens over Jabbar, Unseld over West to a lesser degree Reed over West and Frazier just to name the top candidates).

In any case though, it was in response to a post, by you about ...

Ewing 28.0/55.3
Mourning 25.6/58.3
Howard 23.4/57.9
Gilmore 19.7/64.3

so might not the "these guys" in question refer to the contenders left on the board that you're refering to, (rather than guys you introduced now, most of whom didn't exactly maintain that MVP contention level for too long).

Then there's your Chandler comparison which is fine until you note Gilmore scores nearly twices as often per 100 possessions and has nearly twice the career minutes. If Chandler nearly doubled his points production rate and played a nearly 50000 minute career at his present rates (plus the new scoring rate) he'd be pretty darned good (perhaps better than Gilmore what with less turnovers, though the lack of assists maybe balances that out). That he hasn't done these things show in the vast difference in their advanced boxscore metrics.

This is higher than Artis has traditionally ranked but I think there's a fair argument he's been quite badly underrated. I think he warrents consideration here. I could perhaps see arguments against that, but I'm not persuaded by this one.

[DQuinn1575]

. Gilmore was someone who could be your #2 scoring option, I don't know why you disregard his scoring VOLUME+efficiency (as opposed to just efficiency for Chandler).

My point is that he is a #2 scoring option, and a good defensive player/rebounder.

That puts him well out of my Top 30.

[penbeast0]

My biggest issue with regards to Artis is how much his performance seems to drop after the merger. Some of that I guess is to be expected, but its a factor for me currently. I'd listen to arguments for why I shouldn't be as bothered by it tho.

Of course it's an, probably THE, issue with Artis. If he'd continued to play like his ABA form, while he wouldn't have nearly the efficiency numbers, he'd have gone in ahead of Ewing and be up there competing with David Robinson and Moses Malone for their spots.

[penbeast0]

With the exception of those 3 assists, Artis Gilmore seems a lot like a better version of Erick Dampier. Massively strong, good defender, good rebounder particularly on the offensive end. Terrible hands that meant passes had to be delivered more precisely but once he got the ball was quite efficient at getting it in the basket.

Now obviously he's a much better player, but would you agree that Erick Dampier is a reasonable stylistic comparison to give some of the younger posters an idea of how he played?

I don't think so, that's like comparing Jordan to Harold Miner; I'd say Dwight Howard plays the most like Artis that I've seen . . . Artis has a few inches of height, Dwight is quicker, but stylistically similar with rudimentary post skills that work because of their strength and athleticism. They never needed to learn the finesse moves because no one has yet stopped their power moves -- both dominated fairly weak eras for centers too. The Tyson Chandler comparison is interesting too but there just isn't the emphasis on getting post position and getting the ball offensively with either of them; they both mainly are looking for putbacks and garbage shots. Dampier also has the undersized big man moves; Gilmore shot over people.

[Laimbeer]

With the exception of those 3 assists, Artis Gilmore seems a lot like a better version of Erick Dampier. Massively strong, good defender, good rebounder particularly on the offensive end. Terrible hands that meant passes had to be delivered more precisely but once he got the ball was quite efficient at getting it in the basket.

Now obviously he's a much better player, but would you agree that Erick Dampier is a reasonable stylistic comparison to give some of the younger posters an idea of how he played?

I don't think so; I'd say Dwight Howard plays the most like Artis that I've seen . . . Artis has a few inches of height, Dwight is quicker, but stylistically similar with rudimentary post skills that work because of their strength and athleticism. The Tyson Chandler comparison is interesting too but (to a lesser extent than Dampier), there just isn't the emphasis on getting post position and getting the ball offensively with either of them; they both mainly are looking for putbacks and garbage shots. Dampier also has the undersized big man moves; Gilmore shot over people.

No, I think Gilmore was significantly stronger than Dwight, one of the strongest players ever. He also had a bit more touch around the basket and his low post game was not quite as crude. He wasn't nearly as athletic as Dwight.

[DQuinn1575]

Assuming that ABA counts for absolutely nothing sure. But he does have an MVP over (rookie) Erving and Rick Barry (at 27; also Zelmo Beatty and Mel Daniels at the C position)

Artis was a real good player in the ABA in 1972 - but the league wasn't anywhere near as strong as the NBA, ESPECIALLY the center position.

32 year old Zelmo Beaty, a good NBA player was the 2nd best center in the league.

Doctor J was a rookie, 2nd team all-league - did no lead his team in scoring. - Charlie Scott did.

A NBA reject - Donnie Freeman, and sub - Bill Melchionni were 1st team all-league.
The league was getting great young talent - Charlie Scott, Willie Wise, Issel, Gilmore -

Jim McDaniels, was the 4th all-star center - he was a rookie who never was a starter again. A stretch-4 before his time.

Artis was good, but you have to deflate the stats a fair amount here.

He was percieved (by some) as disappointing in part based on that first year in the NBA where for the start of the seaons he was apparently played away from the low post and wasn't getting shots; and I guess in part because he was so good in his first ABA year that it was hard to see him seemingly didn't improve. Nonetheless there's not a like there isn't anecdotal stuff for him (from the '75 Hollander Pro Basketball Yearbook, Dick McGuire (then a scout with the Knicks) called him the (pro) game's best defensive center (these books have a continuing motif of "he's underrated") and Moses said he played him best

Artis played well in 1977 - the Bulls won 20 of their last 24, and played the Blazers well in the playoffs - Artis did well.

And still those some of MVPs listed of those centers are pretty dubious (Cowens over Jabbar, Unseld over West to a lesser degree Reed over West and Frazier just to name the top candidates).

Maybe none of the four were best player - Kareem was better but

Cowens has 4 seasons in Top 4 for MVP
Willis Reed - 3 seasons in Top 4
McAdoo - 3 seasons
Labier 2

Artis, best is 8 - players voting, so they underrated him??


In any case though, it was in response to a post, by you about ...

Ewing 28.0/55.3
Mourning 25.6/58.3
Howard 23.4/57.9
Gilmore 19.7/64.3 so might not the "these guys" in question refer to the contenders left on the board that you're refering to, (rather than guys you introduced now, most of whom didn't exactly maintain that MVP contention level for too long).

I was showing the centers whose TO% were close to Gilmore's, not advocating them, but... Zo has 2 years in Top 5 of MVP, Howard has 4. Ewing is already in.

This is higher than Artis has traditionally ranked but I think there's a fair argument he's been quite badly underrated. I think he warrents consideration here. I could perhaps see arguments against that, but I'm not persuaded by this one.

I feel people look at longevity, TS%, and dominance over center-less league and think guy was underrated.

He lasted a long time, and that puts him at Chief level - he was probably peakwise better.
Artis was big and strong, and gave lots of guys trouble - Heck he is one of the Top players of all-time.


TS% is negated by fact he was awful handling ball and couldn't be top scoring option.

The players voted for MVP, and overall they didn't think that peak Artis was on a level with a lot of other guys.

[Warspite]

I know I'm likely really alone here(tho drza stepped up on Kidd as well so maybe not) but Deke for me is the best big man on the board. I think we are still a couple spots too early with guys like Stockton, Pippen, Hondo, Kidd for sure deserving to be higher, but if we are talking about dominant defensive centers than Deke needs mention.

Elite shot-blocker.
Elite rebounder.
Elite defensive anchor

Was never a great scorer, but played well within his limits and 57% TS for his career. Came in and had huge impact as a rookie, led the Nuggets to one of the biggest upsets in playoff history over the Sonics, and was a huge part of that Finals teams in Philadelphia where he proved to be the missing piece and had a tremendous playoffs. And yeah peak Shaq put up big numbers in the Finals against him, but Deke was no slouch himself.

Willis Reed says hi.

[Texas Chuck]

He can feel free to say Hi, but I won't be considering him for a long long time

[DQuinn1575]

With the exception of those 3 assists, Artis Gilmore seems a lot like a better version of Erick Dampier. Massively strong, good defender, good rebounder particularly on the offensive end. Terrible hands that meant passes had to be delivered more precisely but once he got the ball was quite efficient at getting it in the basket.

Now obviously he's a much better player, but would you agree that Erick Dampier is a reasonable stylistic comparison to give some of the younger posters an idea of how he played?

I don't think so; I'd say Dwight Howard plays the most like Artis that I've seen . . . Artis has a few inches of height, Dwight is quicker, but stylistically similar with rudimentary post skills that work because of their strength and athleticism. The Tyson Chandler comparison is interesting too but (to a lesser extent than Dampier), there just isn't the emphasis on getting post position and getting the ball offensively with either of them; they both mainly are looking for putbacks and garbage shots. Dampier also has the undersized big man moves; Gilmore shot over people.

No, I think Gilmore was significantly stronger than Dwight, one of the strongest players ever. He also had a bit more touch around the basket and his low post game was not quite as crude. He wasn't nearly as athletic as Dwight.

Agreed, Artis was not as quick or mobile as Dwight - Stronger and he could jump fairly well for a big guy, but Dwight is Superman.

[DQuinn1575]

I'm voting for Kevin Durant

Durant voters,

I'd like to hear about how he compares with two other small forwards: Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry.

The tie breaker for me was efficiency. Baylor started out well but took a dive, playing in a less competitive era.
Barry has some pretty good highs, but faded quick so doesn't get much longevity in Durant.
Both Barry and Baylor passed well, but Barry gets a okay at best on defense.

I think Durant as #2 player in league behind lbj is much better peak than Baylor.
Barry versus Durant is tough call; Barry missed year to aba switch, had injuries and didn't get much extra time in with longevity.

[DQuinn1575]

Anybody got a vote count?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[SactoKingsFan]

Only 9 votes so far.

Stockton: 5 (FJS, trex_8063, Owly, Clyde Frazier, SactoKingsFan)
Frazier: 2 (penbeast, batmana)
Durant: 1 (DQuinn1575)
Isiah: 1 (JordansBulls)

[Owly]

Assuming that ABA counts for absolutely nothing sure. But he does have an MVP over (rookie) Erving and Rick Barry (at 27; also Zelmo Beatty and Mel Daniels at the C position)

Artis was a real good player in the ABA in 1972 - but the league wasn't anywhere near as strong as the NBA, ESPECIALLY the center position.

32 year old Zelmo Beaty, a good NBA player was the 2nd best center in the league.

Doctor J was a rookie, 2nd team all-league - did no lead his team in scoring. - Charlie Scott did.

A NBA reject - Donnie Freeman, and sub - Bill Melchionni were 1st team all-league.
The league was getting great young talent - Charlie Scott, Willie Wise, Issel, Gilmore -

Jim McDaniels, was the 4th all-star center - he was a rookie who never was a starter again. A stretch-4 before his time.

Artis was good, but you have to deflate the stats a fair amount here.

He was percieved (by some) as disappointing in part based on that first year in the NBA where for the start of the seaons he was apparently played away from the low post and wasn't getting shots; and I guess in part because he was so good in his first ABA year that it was hard to see him seemingly didn't improve. Nonetheless there's not a like there isn't anecdotal stuff for him (from the '75 Hollander Pro Basketball Yearbook, Dick McGuire (then a scout with the Knicks) called him the (pro) game's best defensive center (these books have a continuing motif of "he's underrated") and Moses said he played him best

Artis played well in 1977 - the Bulls won 20 of their last 24, and played the Blazers well in the playoffs - Artis did well.

And still those some of MVPs listed of those centers are pretty dubious (Cowens over Jabbar, Unseld over West to a lesser degree Reed over West and Frazier just to name the top candidates).

Maybe none of the four were best player - Kareem was better but

Cowens has 4 seasons in Top 4 for MVP
Willis Reed - 3 seasons in Top 4
McAdoo - 3 seasons
Labier 2

Artis, best is 8 - players voting, so they underrated him??


In any case though, it was in response to a post, by you about ...

Ewing 28.0/55.3
Mourning 25.6/58.3
Howard 23.4/57.9
Gilmore 19.7/64.3 so might not the "these guys" in question refer to the contenders left on the board that you're refering to, (rather than guys you introduced now, most of whom didn't exactly maintain that MVP contention level for too long).

I was showing the centers whose TO% were close to Gilmore's, not advocating them, but... Zo has 2 years in Top 5 of MVP, Howard has 4. Ewing is already in.

This is higher than Artis has traditionally ranked but I think there's a fair argument he's been quite badly underrated. I think he warrents consideration here. I could perhaps see arguments against that, but I'm not persuaded by this one.

I feel people look at longevity, TS%, and dominance over center-less league and think guy was underrated.

He lasted a long time, and that puts him at Chief level - he was probably peakwise better.
Artis was big and strong, and gave lots of guys trouble - Heck he is one of the Top players of all-time.


TS% is negated by fact he was awful handling ball and couldn't be top scoring option.

The players voted for MVP, and overall they didn't think that peak Artis was on a level with a lot of other guys.

I don't think anyone's advocating reading his stats as absolutely equal to what he'd do in the NBA. That said there were a few guys who would go on to do okay in the NBA by that time (and these guys weren't destroying the ABA) Billy Paultz, Tom Owens and Dave Robisch. This is on top of Gilmore, Daniels and Beatty). It's not a huge league. So whilst it certainly doesn't have the top end talent that the 70s NBA did, how far are you going to reduce those numbers that they aren't comparable with Reed, Unseld or Cowens'. He was having way more impact on that league than a prime Rick Barry (who people have been mentioning). I don't think you can ignore it and imply his peak is way behind Wes Unseld's because Unseld got the old-time best player on the "best" (most wins) team, plus I guess turnaround exceeding expectations narrative helped. Best player on the best team seems very much the player voters M.O..

'77 Artis did do well. But less well than he would he in the future in the NBA, alas he arrived as the great Bulls teams of the 70s were crumbling and he and (gunner faux-pg) Reggie Theus wasn't enough to turn it around and so Artis was judged harshly.

Nobody said you were advocating Zo, Howard, but when somebody quotes your post in which you reference a pack of centers, the person responds about how ""these guys" compare, and then you spring an entirely different pack of centres as though that disproves where Gilmore's peak is relative to the people in the conversation ... that's just an odd non-sequitur.

Anyhow NBA didn't vote on peak Artis and it seems like he was shunted about with roles and the Bulls didn't know how best to use him. But it's entirely plausible that he could have an NBA MVP like Cowens did through Kareem voter fatigue plus good team performance. And as for his actual NBA MVP performances as noted, in the player era especially but in general there has been a tendency towards best player on best (or at least near-best) team picks and he landed on team that was headed in the wrong direction and he kept them too competent to add any real pieces.

I think he just suffers from goliath stuff. Whenever we see physically imposing guys (Wilt and Robinson might suffer here too, or in a different way and a much lesser player Shawn Bradley) we feel like they should be like adults playing in a childrens game and if they aren't that and they aren't visibly, flashily and team results-wise dominant we say they're lazy, soft, uncommitted etc.

It's fair comment that he turned it over too much (but then as you've already alluded to, so did Ewing, he's in) and isn't ideally a first option (ditto) but these things don't necessarily preclude you from getting in. Everybody now will have clear flaws.
for instance from penbeasts opening post some possible contenders and here's the totally negative slant (often unreasonable or dubious) on them

Howard- Not serious. Dwightmare. Post game is limited.

Mel Daniels - 3 Titles, 0 FMVPs. Unclutch. Played in weak era ABA. Haywood and Hawkins far more dominant for their MVPs. Inaccurate from the field and the line. Zelmo Beatty posted better stats. Lucky to play on good teams.

Baylor - Inefficient gunner. Hurt his team much of his career by failing to cede primacy after injuries. Short peak. Team won when he left.

McHale - Short peak. 400 career starts. Never the best player on his team. Black hole. Bird said he didn't care enough, and whilst playing in college wasn't aware he'd have an NBA career. Career minutes, PER and WS/48 indistinguishable from Larry Nance.

Pippen - Migraine, bullied by McDaniel, stayed on the bench, couldn't fit in Houston, allowed 4th quarter collapse. Some dubious finals performances.

Havlicek - Rotten %s, advanced stats say never had a significant peak, never got serious MVP consideration. Garbage time stat padder. Never the best player on a good team.

Rodman - Distraction. Cancerous locker room presence. Stat-whore. Passes up easy shots. Defensive focus waxes and wanes.

etc

I wish accolades went to the best player but they don't and MVP voting shouldn't be a centrepiece of an argument over how good a player is.

[Jim Naismith]

I'm voting for Kevin Durant

Durant voters,

I'd like to hear about how he compares with two other small forwards: Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry.

The tie breaker for me was efficiency. Baylor started out well but took a dive, playing in a less competitive era.
Barry has some pretty good highs, but faded quick so doesn't get much longevity in Durant.
Both Barry and Baylor passed well, but Barry gets a okay at best on defense.

I think Durant as #2 player in league behind lbj is much better peak than Baylor.
Barry versus Durant is tough call; Barry missed year to aba switch, had injuries and didn't get much extra time in with longevity.

I know about the decreased efficiency, but still peak Baylor is 38.3 ppg / 18.6 rpg . He was only #3 in the league because of Wilt and Russell.

Baylor was elite for 4 years (1960-63), plus 7 other all-star seasons.

Durant was elite for 5 years, plus 2 other non-all-star seasons.

The gap in longevity is considerable.