ILB Position has been ignored for years

[HKPackFan]

I went back to look at how we have been drafting Linebackers. I went waaaay back, but the relevance I believe starts in 2009 when Capers comes to town, the Guru of the 3-4 defense.

I see we haven't invested in the ILB AT ALL, a couple 6th and 7th round picks, and street free agents...THAT'S IT!

Take a look:

2014 4th round Carl Bradford OLB (maybe switching to ILB after a complete FAIL at OLB).

2013 6th Round Nate Palmer OLB
2013 7th Round Sam Barrington ILB

2012 5th Terrell Manning ILB

2011 6th Round DJ Smith ILB

2010 - 0

2009 1st Round Clay Mathews OLB
2009 7th Round Brad F'**ng Jones ILB
(Beginning of the Capers era)

2008 -0

2007 6th Round Korey Hall
2007 6th Round Desmond Bishop

2006 1st Round AJ HAWK
2006 3rd Abdul Hodge

2005 4th Round Brady Poppinga
(Ted Thompson Era Begins)

2004 - 0

2003 1st Round Nick Barnett
2003 5th Round Hunter Hillenmeyer


From the 6 drafts with Capers and Thompson together in 2009, the result of that is Brad Jones a 7th rounder, Jamari Lattimore an undrafted player, Sam Barrington a 7th rounder. AJ Hawk who's been there since 2006 and Carl Bradford who's a rookie that looked awful.

How neglected can you get at this position?


in 5 drafts prior to this last one, not a single pick in the first 4 rounds.

[PkrsBcksGphsMqt]

This is the primary reason for our mediocre defense in my opinion.

[Godgers]

A 3-4 defense is only as strong as your NT and MLB's. I have been saying it for the last 4 years. Just takes people on these forums that long to realize it.

How can you play a 3-4 defense with no MLB's.

Packers should of fired Capers and ran of 4-3 for years. Or sign some MLBs, and draft some early.

[Newz]

Hawk not producing like you need a 5th overall pick to and Des Bishop getting crippled has crushed the ILB position. I think that a Hawk/Bishop pairing would be just fine if Bishop had never got hurt.

But I do agree it is time that TT find another reasonable player at ILB. I think his major weaknesses as a GM since he has been here have been DL and ILB. He seems to do a pretty good job at every other spot. OL was a weakness for a while, but I think he did a great job patching that up (until our most recent rash of injuries).

[Kerb Hohl]

My contention is, "what the hell are you guys looking at?"

We've had RB, S, OL, ILB, and DL issues over the past 3-4 years. They've gone and fixed the offensive line and RB via the draft (OL is now maybe screwed due to injury). They drafted a ton of guys at DL and mostfly failed as well as S...maybe HHCD has finally fixed the safety spot.

ILB they've just sat there and watched. I defended TT last year under the assumption that they'd finally do something at ILB this offseason. They didn't.

[Newz]

My contention is, "what the hell are you guys looking at?"

We've had RB, S, OL, ILB, and DL issues over the past 3-4 years. They've gone and fixed the offensive line and RB via the draft (OL is now maybe screwed due to injury). They drafted a ton of guys at DL and mostfly failed as well as S...maybe HHCD has finally fixed the safety spot.

ILB they've just sat there and watched. I defended TT last year under the assumption that they'd finally do something at ILB this offseason. They didn't.

I'm not sure what they see in Hawk. That is the one guy that has always puzzled me when it comes to the Packers. I mean he isn't awful or anything, but he is far from an impact player. He is a guy that I personally think we should be trying to upgrade if we can.

As far as the other linebacker spot goes, Bishop was a hell of a player at that spot. It is unfortunate he had his career cut short in his prime.

I think TT has been relying on late round guys at ILB because I think it's one of the positions that a lot of people assume you can get reasonable talent at without having to spend a lot of resources on it. Kind of like center or guard, where if you take one late it is kind of assumed that they can still play and be reasonable. Obviously that isn't the case, at least not with the guys that we have ended up with at ILB.

I agree we need an upgrade over at least Jones if we really want to turn the corner as a defense. We may need to upgrade both of them as Hawk is certainly nothing special either.

[Jollay]

This position simply should have been updated in FA or at least in the higher rounds of this last draft. Tom Silverstein says players like the Ravens' Darryl Smith "don't go on trees," but Smith was had two offseasons ago on a one-year deal at less than two million. He would have been a monster upgrade here, and TT has completely ignored this and other options in favor of the s####y status quo.

I can live with Hawk for durability and familiarity reasons (for now), but Jones is just cruel and unusual punishment at this stage.

[msiris]

My contention is, "what the hell are you guys looking at?"

We've had RB, S, OL, ILB, and DL issues over the past 3-4 years. They've gone and fixed the offensive line and RB via the draft (OL is now maybe screwed due to injury). They drafted a ton of guys at DL and mostfly failed as well as S...maybe HHCD has finally fixed the safety spot.

ILB they've just sat there and watched. I defended TT last year under the assumption that they'd finally do something at ILB this offseason. They didn't.

I'm not sure what they see in Hawk. That is the one guy that has always puzzled me when it comes to the Packers. I mean he isn't awful or anything, but he is far from an impact player. He is a guy that I personally think we should be trying to upgrade if we can.

As far as the other linebacker spot goes, Bishop was a hell of a player at that spot. It is unfortunate he had his career cut short in his prime.

I think TT has been relying on late round guys at ILB because I think it's one of the positions that a lot of people assume you can get reasonable talent at without having to spend a lot of resources on it. Kind of like center or guard, where if you take one late it is kind of assumed that they can still play and be reasonable. Obviously that isn't the case, at least not with the guys that we have ended up with at ILB.

I agree we need an upgrade over at least Jones if we really want to turn the corner as a defense. We may need to upgrade both of them as Hawk is certainly nothing special either.

Could it be that the Packers are just loyal to Hawk? Maybe they treat their players too much like family members rather than a business?

[MickeyDavis]

Even if Hawk wasn't a fifth overall pick, if he was a late first rounder, or even second or third rounder I'd think the same thing, he needs to go. I don't care that he's a "smart player" or a "tough player" or "is great at making the defensive calls". He's damn slow first off. There's nothing he can do about that. But what I really hate is how slow he is to react. He has no anticipation. He plays so damn cautious. He makes a lot of tackles but he rarely makes plays. Yes a better DL would make the LB's better. But better LB's would make our DB's better too. They all go together. We can and should do better.

And I won't even waste time on Jones. He's not worth it.

[Newz]

I personally don't think it's a "family" thing. TT has shown he can be plenty heartless when getting rid of guys.

What I think it is is just that TT has a lot of faith in his ability to scout. If he likes a guy, he thinks that guy is going to be good. Sometimes he sticks with a guy through rough times and he turns out to be great, other times maybe he sticks with a guy and it turns out to be a pretty big mistake.

But I think he loved Hawk when he picked him and thought he was going to be a superstar and that connection with him probably hasn't faded.

I haven't seen the Packers hang onto many guys too long or be attached to them when they shouldn't. Hawk is about the only one I've seen. Brad Jones is a guy who played well for a year, then got hurt and now looks like he just won't be very good. My guess is he is out the door next year if he keeps playing this bad.

[humanrefutation]

Brandt's profile of Thompson/Schneider for MMQB was really insightful, and it contained this nugget:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/04/seattle-s ... -thompson/

Ted is most content watching, analyzing and scouting football players. He finds comfort in the process, and the dark room where he studiously watches tape of prospects is his sanctuary. He spends most of the NFL season scouting college practices and games, and then meeting up with the team on weekends for games. He accepts and dutifully performs the necessary administrative and managerial responsibilities of being general manager, but in his heart he is and always will be a scout.

Ted’s cool demeanor can be frustrating, but I always sensed that it was 1) who he was, and 2) a demeanor he felt necessary for a job that requires constant separation from players.

If this is accurate, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be, it seems puzzling that TT would value scouting as much as he does, also feel a desire to remain emotionally separated from his players, and yet, continues to remain loyal to guys like Hawk and Jones.

He's been comfortable shifting around underperforming players at other positions. He's let guys go without a second thought at other positions, including our HOF QB, when he thought he could upgrade.

But he hasn't with Hawk and Jones. Why is that? The only answer that makes sense to me is that he somehow believes they're better than we think.

[Ron Swanson]

I still think that AJ is an adequate to above-average ILB if he has a big thumper playing next to him (like when we had a healthy Bishop). Just because he isn't an "impact player" and doesn't create a lot turnovers doesn't mean he's bad. The problem has been, going back to the 2012 season, and will continue to be, Brad Jones.

At this point, I don't see how there is any excuse for not starting Lattimore over him, or at the very least limiting his snaps immensely. Sure, Jamari is garbage in pass D, but Jones proved to be just as awful if not worse last night in that area. Brad Jones was a 7th round draft pick for a reason and more importantly, he isn't an ILB. TT whiffed on that multi-year deal he just handed him, partially because I think he felt he had no better options.

[PkrsBcksGphsMqt]

Brandt's profile of Thompson/Schneider for MMQB was really insightful, and it contained this nugget:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/09/04/seattle-s ... -thompson/

Ted is most content watching, analyzing and scouting football players. He finds comfort in the process, and the dark room where he studiously watches tape of prospects is his sanctuary. He spends most of the NFL season scouting college practices and games, and then meeting up with the team on weekends for games. He accepts and dutifully performs the necessary administrative and managerial responsibilities of being general manager, but in his heart he is and always will be a scout.

Ted’s cool demeanor can be frustrating, but I always sensed that it was 1) who he was, and 2) a demeanor he felt necessary for a job that requires constant separation from players.

If this is accurate, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be, it seems puzzling that TT would value scouting as much as he does, also feel a desire to remain emotionally separated from his players, and yet, continues to remain loyal to guys like Hawk and Jones.

He's been comfortable shifting around underperforming players at other positions. He's let guys go without a second thought at other positions, including our HOF QB, when he thought he could upgrade.

But he hasn't with Hawk and Jones. Why is that? The only answer that makes sense to me is that he somehow believes they're better than we think.

He also has a penchant to fall in love with players and stick to that feeling. This was discussed in that article or King's from the previous day. I think they cited Charles Woodson as an example of it. Peppers may fall into the same category. There are certain players that TT really falls in love with when he scouts and can never shake that feeling. Sometimes it pays off (Woodson-when he was thought to be done) and other times it hurts us (Hawk etc.).

[bigkurty]

That third down play last night where Hawk could have went for a tackle of Harvin in the backfield to stop the drive but ended up retreating slightly so he wouldn't miss the tackle was exactly why I cant stand him. He always chooses the safe play and concedes yards and thus first downs.

[Buckrageous]

That third down play last night where Hawk could have went for a tackle of Harvin in the backfield to stop the drive but ended up retreating slightly so he wouldn't miss the tackle was exactly why I cant stand him. He always chooses the safe play and concedes yards and thus first downs.

Exactly, which is why tackle stats can be misleading. Tackling someone 4 yrds past the line of scrimmage on 3rd and 3 doesnt do anything for me.

[Buckrageous]

Even if Hawk wasn't a fifth overall pick, if he was a late first rounder, or even second or third rounder I'd think the same thing, he needs to go. I don't care that he's a "smart player" or a "tough player" or "is great at making the defensive calls". He's damn slow first off. There's nothing he can do about that. But what I really hate is how slow he is to react. He has no anticipation. He plays so damn cautious. He makes a lot of tackles but he rarely makes plays. Yes a better DL would make the LB's better. But better LB's would make our DB's better too. They all go together. We can and should do better.

And I won't even waste time on Jones. He's not worth it.

I never got the "great at making defensive calls" argument for Hawk. The D hasnt been good in years. If Hawk is making such great calls, why arent they working? Isthe talent level even worse than it appears? How bad would this D be if he wasnt making the right calls? Or is hes just crappy and they throw out this non tangible attribute as an excuse?

[humanrefutation]

Even if Hawk wasn't a fifth overall pick, if he was a late first rounder, or even second or third rounder I'd think the same thing, he needs to go. I don't care that he's a "smart player" or a "tough player" or "is great at making the defensive calls". He's damn slow first off. There's nothing he can do about that. But what I really hate is how slow he is to react. He has no anticipation. He plays so damn cautious. He makes a lot of tackles but he rarely makes plays. Yes a better DL would make the LB's better. But better LB's would make our DB's better too. They all go together. We can and should do better.

And I won't even waste time on Jones. He's not worth it.

I never got the "great at making defensive calls" argument for Hawk. The D hasnt been good in years. If Hawk is making such great calls, why arent they working? Isthe talent level even worse than it appears? How bad would this D be if he wasnt making the right calls? Or is hes just crappy and they throw out this non tangible attribute as an excuse?

I don't have much to say about whether Hawk is good at his job, but you can't judge his performance "at making calls" solely on the performance of the defense. Maybe Capers and company are sending in crappy schemes? Maybe players aren't executing?

[Buckrageous]

The ILBs are slow. The talk about the physicality os Seattle but that has a lot to do with speed. Its much easier to hit someone hard (be physical) against someone you are faster than and conversely much more difficult when you are slower. Jones and Hawk wait back instead of attacking as not to get burned. When you are faster you can attack.

[Buckrageous]

Even if Hawk wasn't a fifth overall pick, if he was a late first rounder, or even second or third rounder I'd think the same thing, he needs to go. I don't care that he's a "smart player" or a "tough player" or "is great at making the defensive calls". He's damn slow first off. There's nothing he can do about that. But what I really hate is how slow he is to react. He has no anticipation. He plays so damn cautious. He makes a lot of tackles but he rarely makes plays. Yes a better DL would make the LB's better. But better LB's would make our DB's better too. They all go together. We can and should do better.

And I won't even waste time on Jones. He's not worth it.

I never got the "great at making defensive calls" argument for Hawk. The D hasnt been good in years. If Hawk is making such great calls, why arent they working? Isthe talent level even worse than it appears? How bad would this D be if he wasnt making the right calls? Or is hes just crappy and they throw out this non tangible attribute as an excuse?

I don't have much to say about whether Hawk is good at his job, but you can't judge his performance "at making calls" solely on the performance of the defense. Maybe Capers and company are sending in crappy schemes? Maybe players aren't executing?

Thats kind of my point. What is the evidence hes making these great calls? If hes just repeating what Capers called then why cant anyone do that?

[Buckrageous]

Also I think the D line is getting something of a pass today (perhaps the wrong thread). I guess its because we've seen this from Hawk and Jones for years and the frustration is boiling over. Datone Jones was invisible, Guion was getting pushed around, Daniels was move pretty easily a few times to in addition to a stupid penalty that was equivalent to a turnover that cost them 3 points.