Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

[JTrain]

Why don't we just spend the rest of our $19m of cap space on Goran and Zoran Dragic? No point in taking any risks, or spending any money that would potentially hurt our valued position as 9th seed in the West. The marketing team and Sarver's dream: "Come see the Phoenix Suns, the team with the identical twin Morris bros, the 9 fingered high flyer Gerald Green, the shortest player in the NBA Isaiah Thomas and the Euro bros with the weirdly similar names Goran and Zoran compete for the 9th seed!"

I just don't think this notion (that Sarver's Suns are stuck at borderline playoff team with no movement and no further ambition) is historically accurate. Perhaps the frustration of Nash's final two years are sticking out more in your memory. It was only 2010 when we were in Game 6 of the WCF. When Nash left we started from scratch and last season we made far greater strides in the rebuild than 99% of people (including probably 95% of Suns fans) ever imagined.

[Zelaznyrules]

There's a couple more Plumlees we can get our hands on too!!!

All-Brother team

Goran
Zoran
Marcus
Kieff
Miles / Mason

I'd jump at the chance to add Mason to our team. I'd love it if we could find a trade (or trades) that sent Bledsoe out and added a couple of good picks plus Mason to our roster. Adding another guard like Zoran might make sense then.

[jredsaz]

http://dimemag.com/2014/07/nba-double-tv-rights-fees-net-15-billion/

Above article makes me wonder why we don't just sign Bledsoe for the max. He will be considered cheap after the new TV deal is signed.

I think the primary concern for the Suns is the total dollars a starting back court of Bledsoe and Dragic will command vis-a-vis the total cap number. If the reports cited in the article (particularly those of Zach Lowe) are true, allocating $30 million for that starting backcourt, against a total cap of +/-$85 million, is reasonable.

Secondarily, the increase in the cap number in the summer of 2016 will provide all teams with increased cap room/flexibility and most every team will be a player in FA to some extent; further depreciating the value of large amounts of cap space.

We have an asset in Bledsoe and I believe in a couple of years that asset will be worth more than the contract he commands this offseason (or next), even if it is a max extension, considering the inevitable change in the NBA's economy.

[Bogyo]

For what its worth:
I just watched the Simmons podcast with Jalen (and Jacoby). Jalen said that Bledsoe + pieces for Irving might be a scenario to look at which I d be happy about generaly - depending on the extra pieces. It might make some sense for Cleveland becouse they seem to have defensive issues at guard (on paper as we havent seen them play yet), and becouse Kyrie is a fairly ball dominant player - not too useful with LeBron and Love.

Although Jalen said look for this as the season evolves, so I don't think he thought about Bledsoes QO and the fact that this trade would be fairly impossible after that - or he thought that Bledsoe will take a deal here, and then we throw in guys to make salaries match, but they didnt specify.

Anyways I d be happy with something like: Bled+Green (or a cpl heavily protected picks) for Irving.

I really wouldn't want the Suns to be committed to Irving for $18 million a year for the next 5 years. I certainly wouldn't give anything more than Bledsoe for him. You could do worse, but he seems a little to Marbury-ish to me.

The main reason I might do it is if we thought he had trade value and then we could test him with Dragic.

I think u are severely underestimating Irving. Yes he might have some issues, but he is only 22, and already top 5 PG, starter on team USA (and allstar MVP), and locked up for good. As others have pointed out the raising salary numbers, etc... his 18M wouldnt even be that big of an issue in 2 years. If you can get him for Bledsoe - with all his gddmn issues you do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar that he (or dare I say Dragic?) has large trade value even if their next season goes south for whatever reason.

[lilfishi22]

For what its worth:
I just watched the Simmons podcast with Jalen (and Jacoby). Jalen said that Bledsoe + pieces for Irving might be a scenario to look at which I d be happy about generaly - depending on the extra pieces. It might make some sense for Cleveland becouse they seem to have defensive issues at guard (on paper as we havent seen them play yet), and becouse Kyrie is a fairly ball dominant player - not too useful with LeBron and Love.

Although Jalen said look for this as the season evolves, so I don't think he thought about Bledsoes QO and the fact that this trade would be fairly impossible after that - or he thought that Bledsoe will take a deal here, and then we throw in guys to make salaries match, but they didnt specify.

Anyways I d be happy with something like: Bled+Green (or a cpl heavily protected picks) for Irving.

I really wouldn't want the Suns to be committed to Irving for $18 million a year for the next 5 years. I certainly wouldn't give anything more than Bledsoe for him. You could do worse, but he seems a little to Marbury-ish to me.

The main reason I might do it is if we thought he had trade value and then we could test him with Dragic.

I think u are severely underestimating Irving. Yes he might have some issues, but he is only 22, and already top 5 PG, starter on team USA (and allstar MVP), and locked up for good. As others have pointed out the raising salary numbers, etc... his 18M wouldnt even be that big of an issue in 2 years. If you can get him for Bledsoe - with all his gddmn issues you do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar that he (or dare I say Dragic?) has large trade value even if their next season goes south for whatever reason.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Irving's game. Individually, he puts up great stats but they have thus far been empty stats. His per48 +/- on offense is a +1.7 but his defense is also a -5.7. When he's on, he's giving up more on defense than he is able to produce on offense. Now that isn't all him since there's 4 other guys on the court but the team also average +5% more assist when he's off than he's on.

He's still 22 and has room to grow but I just can't stomach an $18m over 5 years commitment. Fact is this, he's averaged around 21/6 the last two seasons and he certainly could put up even better stats but he'll also have to change the way he plays and the way he affects his team if he truly wants to be a star because I think he's overpaid now and until he can show he's more than just a great one on one player.

Also let's keep in mind, we have 2 of the 6 PG's last season that averaged 20/6. Do we need a 3rd? At $18m a year?

[BurningHeart]

Why don't we just spend the rest of our $19m of cap space on Goran and Zoran Dragic? No point in taking any risks, or spending any money that would potentially hurt our valued position as 9th seed in the West. The marketing team and Sarver's dream: "Come see the Phoenix Suns, the team with the identical twin Morris bros, the 9 fingered high flyer Gerald Green, the shortest player in the NBA Isaiah Thomas and the Euro bros with the weirdly similar names Goran and Zoran compete for the 9th seed!"

I just don't think this notion (that Sarver's Suns are stuck at borderline playoff team with no movement and no further ambition) is historically accurate. Perhaps the frustration of Nash's final two years are sticking out more in your memory. It was only 2010 when we were in Game 6 of the WCF. When Nash left we started from scratch and last season we made far greater strides in the rebuild than 99% of people (including probably 95% of Suns fans) every imagined.

It's just a trite, bull thing that fans say nowadays. Pay no mind to that nonsense.

[NaturalBuns]

If Bledsoe is not traded takes QO.

Bledsoe/Thomas/Ennis/Zoran
Dragic/Green/Goodwin/Zoran
Tucker/Warren/Morris

1-3 I don't see any PT time for zoran but he
Can play the role of Christmas this year.
Even if he jumped Ennis or Goodwin in rotation he won't play.

[Blackification]

Maybe Goran would be more likely to resign with us on a less lucrative contract so he can play with his brother.

How much is less lucrative and would the savings be offset by the contract we'll have to offer Zoran to lure him away from his Euro team? Lots of questions

I don't see the front office offering him a max contract. I expect them to give him a similar offer they gave bledsoe. I could see them giving him a two or three year front loaded deal similar to what they gave tolliver.

I don't know if it would necessarily be cheaper to pay zoran just to keep goran on a cheaper contract but the positive would be that their contracts would be more trade able if a trade comes along.

And who knows they both might actually play better with eachother like the morris twins

[jolbin]

If Bledsoe is not traded takes QO.

Bledsoe/Thomas/Ennis/Zoran
Dragic/Green/Goodwin/Zoran
Tucker/Warren/Morris

1-3 I don't see any PT time for zoran but he
Can play the role of Christmas this year.
Even if he jumped Ennis or Goodwin in rotation he won't play.

Zoran cant play at PG

[Saberestar]

I am all for signing Zoran. Something around $8M for 3 years would be a great contract and with Goran on the team he will adapt to the NBA faster than other european players.

[Sunsdeuce]

@GoranDragicNews: Report: Suns targeting Goran Dragic's brother Zoran http://t.co/4ocvFJEiHy


"Sources here in Spain told ESPN.com this weekend that the Phoenix Suns are indeed among the three NBA teams expressing the most serious interest in signing Goran Dragic’s younger brother Zoran….
European media reports have pegged the Indiana Pacers as another suitor for Zoran Dragic."


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[bwgood77]

The salary cap will be MUCH higher in 2 years. If we don't keep him, we don't compete for a while. He may not be as good as last year without Frye, but you have to keep him, especially if we lose Bledsoe, but even if we keep him, you don't let him go. And it's more like 1/4 of the salary cap, especially next year.

Yes, it's going to increase but we don't know how much yet. What we do know is that it's not going to balloon up all at once. The league has said as much. It'll will be a gradual increase. These teams already splurging on salaries like the new Tv deal is here are idiots and will pay a heavy price for it.

Before I realized the tv deal would kick in and that it would go up quite a bit, I would have agreed with you on salaries. But it is so difficult to get premier players unless you draft them that if you let them go over a couple of million you are only shooting yourself in the foot, especially if it doesn't open up cap space to sign someone else anyway. It won't go up drastically in one year, but estimates for next year are about a 68 million cap, and it will probably be at least around 75 the year after that. 17 isn't ideal, but it's still less than a bunch of others who likely will make even more in their subsequent contract, as will most of the point guards who are on the 8-12 million dollars now.

[bwgood77]

For what its worth:
I just watched the Simmons podcast with Jalen (and Jacoby). Jalen said that Bledsoe + pieces for Irving might be a scenario to look at which I d be happy about generaly - depending on the extra pieces. It might make some sense for Cleveland becouse they seem to have defensive issues at guard (on paper as we havent seen them play yet), and becouse Kyrie is a fairly ball dominant player - not too useful with LeBron and Love.

Although Jalen said look for this as the season evolves, so I don't think he thought about Bledsoes QO and the fact that this trade would be fairly impossible after that - or he thought that Bledsoe will take a deal here, and then we throw in guys to make salaries match, but they didnt specify.

Anyways I d be happy with something like: Bled+Green (or a cpl heavily protected picks) for Irving.

I really wouldn't want the Suns to be committed to Irving for $18 million a year for the next 5 years. I certainly wouldn't give anything more than Bledsoe for him. You could do worse, but he seems a little to Marbury-ish to me.

The main reason I might do it is if we thought he had trade value and then we could test him with Dragic.

I think u are severely underestimating Irving. Yes he might have some issues, but he is only 22, and already top 5 PG, starter on team USA (and allstar MVP), and locked up for good. As others have pointed out the raising salary numbers, etc... his 18M wouldnt even be that big of an issue in 2 years. If you can get him for Bledsoe - with all his gddmn issues you do it. And you can bet your bottom dollar that he (or dare I say Dragic?) has large trade value even if their next season goes south for whatever reason.

Like I said, I might do it because you don't want to lose Bledsoe for nothing, but I think he is a little overrated. Marbury also played in the olympics or world championships and was once considered a top 5 pg. I think he might be really good, but I'm just not sure. IT has similar numbers. He is a good 3 pt shooter and decent spot up shooter though, which I do like. But then if Dragic did get 17 and we wanted to keep him, that's a 35 million dollar backcourt. Would you want Irving enough to let Dragic walk? I'm sure some would. I'm not so sure.

[bwgood77]

@GoranDragicNews: Report: Suns targeting Goran Dragic's brother Zoran http://t.co/4ocvFJEiHy


"Sources here in Spain told ESPN.com this weekend that the Phoenix Suns are indeed among the three NBA teams expressing the most serious interest in signing Goran Dragic’s younger brother Zoran….
European media reports have pegged the Indiana Pacers as another suitor for Zoran Dragic."


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Zoran would rather play for the Pacers. Obviously him and Goran haven't done everything together every minute of their lives, like the Morris twins had done (prior to them playing their rookie years). They have been living apart for at least 5 years in different countries; he has expressed he wants to get to the nba on his own merit, and would probably get a ton more playing time playing for the Pacers.

[Years90Suns]

"I want a max deal".
"We offer you 48/4".
"I want a max deal".
"We believe 48/4 is fais, as you have some concernign health issues and, in addition, we do not believe you put up such good numbers to get that".
"I want no less than a max deal".
"We are open to negotiate and possibly improve that offer slightly".
"-"
Suns FO staff: We are signing IT just in case.
"-"
If he wants a max deal, and we are offering 48/4 and probably a little more, shouldn't he be coming at us with something, being it a max deal offer from another team, or a desire to be open to negotiations?
"-"
Suns FO staff: ¿¿??

I do not know whether I am missing something of the main points, but it is as simple (and as complicated) as that.

From a team point of view, Bledose and his agent needs the Suns much more than we need him. We have Isiah Thomas and we could probably sign a 3er guard, os use our rookie there. Also Goodwin will play more this year.

Probably LBJ has a lot to do with all this. Paul was sured he would be getting an interesting portion of that max deal of Bledsoe. If he doesn't, as he also let some money scape from LBJ's contracts with the Heat, he would be receiving much less money than expected from those two contracts.
I am sure LBJ has been all summer long trying to influence some teams transactions in order to get his friends EB and Paul good money.
I am ready to get 50 from LBJ when we play them. It does not matter at all. We have a plan and a team style that probably will be better with no Bledsoe on board.

[RaisingArizona]

Let's just be the Phoenix SONS

[bigfoot]

http://dimemag.com/2014/07/nba-double-tv-rights-fees-net-15-billion/

Above article makes me wonder why we don't just sign Bledsoe for the max. He will be considered cheap after the new TV deal is signed.

I think the primary concern for the Suns is the total dollars a starting back court of Bledsoe and Dragic will command vis-a-vis the total cap number. If the reports cited in the article (particularly those of Zach Lowe) are true, allocating $30 million for that starting backcourt, against a total cap of +/-$85 million, is reasonable.

Secondarily, the increase in the cap number in the summer of 2016 will provide all teams with increased cap room/flexibility and most every team will be a player in FA to some extent; further depreciating the value of large amounts of cap space.

We have an asset in Bledsoe and I believe in a couple of years that asset will be worth more than the contract he commands this offseason (or next), even if it is a max extension, considering the inevitable change in the NBA's economy.

That's 35% of your salary cap for 40% of the starting 5. Absolutely seems reasonable for two near all-star level players. Your point about Bledsoe's salary being below his value in two years is also very accurate. He would certainly be a valuable trade asset. Finally, making the max offer to Bledsoe would absolutely answer the question if he wants to be in Phoenix.

[bwgood77]

That's 35% of your salary cap for 40% of the starting 5. Absolutely seems reasonable for two near all-star level players. Your point about Bledsoe's salary being below his value in two years is also very accurate. He would certainly be a valuable trade asset. Finally, making the max offer to Bledsoe would absolutely answer the question if he wants to be in Phoenix.

I agree, but still no reason to just give in to max. Offer him 4/52, then see if he comes down a little bit, then go up to 4/56 or 5/70. If he gets those last two deals I don't think there is ANY WAY he can make as much money the next 4/5 years if he takes the QO, even if he gets a max elsewhere next summer (which is far from a given). So if his agent (and more likely his agent's advisor) can do simple math, it's a no brainer. That's $14 million a year, which is more than all but a handful of pgs.

[bigfoot]

That's 35% of your salary cap for 40% of the starting 5. Absolutely seems reasonable for two near all-star level players. Your point about Bledsoe's salary being below his value in two years is also very accurate. He would certainly be a valuable trade asset. Finally, making the max offer to Bledsoe would absolutely answer the question if he wants to be in Phoenix.

I agree, but still no reason to just give in to max. Offer him 4/52, then see if he comes down a little bit, then go up to 4/56 or 5/70. If he gets those last two deals I don't think there is ANY WAY he can make as much money the next 4/5 years if he takes the QO, even if he gets a max elsewhere next summer (which is far from a given). So if his agent (and more likely his agent's advisor) can do simple math, it's a no brainer. That's $14 million a year, which is more than all but a handful of pgs.

True. Someone has got to blink first.

[Frank Lee]

This offf season can't be over with can it ??? .... even adding Credlow I don't see us much better than an 8 or 9 seed. I'd put us on the same par as NO, and if they gel, sheesh they can be sneaky good.


Will be interesting to see the NBA/Vegas total win lines when they come out next month. I see us at 39... the West is going to be a three-four team struggle for 7-8-9-10