RealGM Top 100 List #27

[tsherkin]

OK, just a little justification for my vote for Frazier above.

I can see a Pip vote; we're getting to the stage where I don't see huge separation between a lot of these players, but I like someone who shows up in the playoffs a little more, I'm not a huge fan of Pip's personality issues and I think that while Pip was likely the higher-impact defender, that Frazier was himself a 2-position defender, an excellent distributor and a better scoring threat. I think he was a more dynamic initiator, and that he backed it up with his ability to finish efficiently. His much more effective postseason offense is extremely attractive, and of course while Pip has a documented set of scoring failures and inadequacy overcome largely by Jordan's scoring dominance in the Finals, Frazier has a more significant level of high-end performance on that end.

I consider this one a lot tighter than many of the previous votes as I review, but I settled on Frazier for the above reasons.

[trex_8063]

Indiana Pacers ~'90-'92: Chuck Person was consistently taking more shots than a vastly more efficient Reggie Miller.
Chicago Bulls '95: Scottie Pippen took more shots than Kukoc and Armstrong, despite worse efficiency than both. (though Armstrong in particular obv not a shot creator, and neither Kukoc or Armstong a "star").
Baltimore/Washington Bullets '73, '75: Elvin Hayes averaged more shots than Phil Chenier, Archie Clark, and Mike Riordan, despite generally worse efficiency than all three.
New York Knicks '70-'71: Reed averaged more shots than Frazier despite worse efficiency (and I don't think it can be denied that this team at least seemed to have found an effective balance).

Not saying it made sense in all instances, but I don't know for sure that it didn't make sense either (and in the case of those Knicks teams, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt).

-Reed in '71. Right well, this one's clear cut. Reed's efficiency fell off a cliff that year, but the Knicks kept using him as if he shot like he'd shot before. Frankly it's a bit like the situation with Baylor, and the chronology to me makes it clear what happened: A guy gets established, and then he hangs on to the same role because of inertia.

So yeah, Reed shouldn't have been shooting so much at that time given what we know now. I'll say though I don't really blame the coach for this one because he was undoubtedly hoping Reed would round back into form. When he didn't, in subsequent seasons he wasn't used in such volume again. If only the Lakers had done the same with Baylor.

Fair enough about '71, but just to make it sure I'm not misunderstood, I wasn't referring to only the 1970-71 season (the writing could be construed that way); it was also true in '70 (as in the 1969-70 season, when Willis was MVP, before his efficiency "fell off a cliff"): Frazier's efficiency was better, but Reed shot more.

[lorak]

I vote for Frazier, because I see him as better overall player (I'm not even sure if Pippen has edge on defense), especially mentally and in the playoffs. Pippen was really great, but more like perfect role player, not no 1 option, while Frazier was the best player of Knicks dynasty.

[ceiling raiser]

For the time being, I'm casting my vote for Frazier. Quoted my post on the two below.

I'm open to changing my mind if someone can convince me that his brand of defense would be less effective in today's game.

Pretty interesting comparison IMO...

1) Both guys played elite defense in similar systems (Clyde under Holzman, Scottie under Phil who was inspired by Red) that relied a ton on pressure D
2) Both guys were the primary ball-handlers/leading playmakers on squads that played great team ball

The differences between them being:

1) Frazier seemingly seamlessly went from a member of the ensemble scoring the ball, to the key cog in that regard
2) Frazier put up what seem to be 10 quality years (68-69 through 77-78) with what seem to be not much else before or after, Scottie had 9 quality years in Chicago and 4 more years as a leader in Houston and Portland

I don't know if the longevity advantage is enough to offset the proven record succeeding as the number one option on a contender. Samurai noted in the other thread:

Reed hinself once said about that team: "it was Clyde's ball; he just let us play with it once in a while." In his prime, Frazier was a player that essentially did not have a weakness; offensively he could hit the midrange jumper, post up and drive to the basket. He was a very good distributor (4 top five finishes in assists/game in a 6 year period). He was an elite defender and an excellent rebounder for a guard.

Obviously Scottie (while he could do all three of those as well at a solid level, and was incredible in the break) played alongside perhaps the best ever perimeter scoring option (albeit a guy that Tex and Phil didn't want to chase scoring titles) during the majority of his prime, and throughout his career did pretty much everything at a very high level.

Something that's a bit of a concern for me is the question of how effective defensively both guys are. Scottie was more versatile (ability to play some post defense), and I can't say how his game would translate in today's league. Scottie also developed some range throughout his career, after from my understanding coming into the league with a reputation as an inconsistent shooter. Frazier obviously didn't have a three during his career, and while he did have a great midrange j, I haven't heard anything to convince me he had that kind of range.

Leaning Frazier, but I don't know if I can vote for him until I hear more about (1) his shooting range and (2) how others think his defense would translate to the present NBA.

[ronnymac2]

Question regarding John Havlicek (I'll probably ask in the #28 thread, didn't want to forget now):

How was his defense against Dr. J in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals? Bob Ryan wrote:

"(Havlicek's) defensive job on a much younger and friskier Julius Erving in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals against Philadelphia was nothing short of spellbinding."

Is that Ryan just advocating for a Celtic legend, or did older Hondo slow down a Julius Erving one year removed from arguably the GOAT playoff performance in professional basketball history?

[DQuinn1575]

Vote for Frazier

In the end it gets down to leading a team to victory - Clyde led the way in Game 7, and played well in the clutch all the time.

Scottie goes to the migraine game and the 1.2 second Kukoc shot.

Maybe not a lot to go on, but the two are pretty close, and I think Clyde came through when it counted, and Scottie didn't.

[Quotatious]

Results since penbeast's last count (post #82):

Walt Frazier (13) - penbeast0, GC Pantalones, Moonbeam, Quotatious, batmana, JordansBulls, RSCD3_, tsherkin, RayBan-Sematra, Jim Naismith, lorak, fpliii, DQuinn1575

Scottie Pippen (13) - Chuck Texas, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, Basketballefan, Notanoob, colts18, ronnymac2, FJS, Jaivl, Ryoga Hibiki

Still dead-even, lol.

I guess drza would vote for Pippen, too, considering that he said: "All told, I'd have to say that I take Pippen in this particular comparison." to sum up his post (#21)? I won't count his vote yet though, not before he casts an official vote.

Also, Narigo and Owly, who posted in this thread, still haven't voted.

[Owly]

Question regarding John Havlicek (I'll probably ask in the #28 thread, didn't want to forget now):

How was his defense against Dr. J in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals? Bob Ryan wrote:

"(Havlicek's) defensive job on a much younger and friskier Julius Erving in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals against Philadelphia was nothing short of spellbinding."

Is that Ryan just advocating for a Celtic legend, or did older Hondo slow down a Julius Erving one year removed from arguably the GOAT playoff performance in professional basketball history?

I don't know about that but some contextual info (or assertions) from Bill Simmons, on Erving

lost five straight playoff series in his NBA prime in which he barely outplayed Bob Gross (1977), got outplayed by Bob Dandridge (’78), played Larry Kenon to a draw (’79), played Jamaal Wilkes to a draw (’80) and got severely outplayed by Larry Bird (’81)

Obviously there's an issue with the dating of NBA prime (perhaps it should have been his prime but ...

For instance the Gross in '77 per 36 production (obviously note that Gross is in foul trouble and couldn't play 36 minutes unless you don't care about him fouling out)

Gross points 22.55421687; rebounds 7.373493976; assists 4.554216867; steals 2.819277108; blocks 0.43373494; personal fouls 5.638554217; fg% 0.667; ts% 0.691857371

Erving points 26.41935484; rebounds 5.951612903; assists 4.35483871; steals 2.322580645; blocks 1.016129032; personal fouls 2.467741935, fg% 0.543; ts% 0.604410202.

The value of those two performances obviously depends what you're getting from your backup (166 minutes for Gross, 248 for Erving; or 27.7 mpg to 41.3.


Haven't got time to search out if there's full numbers for '79 Spurs versus 76ers (not that I'd necessarily know the best place to go anyhow), but Erving outscored Kenon and Kenon's TS% is awful for that playoffs (.468).

Anyway big picture point '77 Erving isn't the same as '76 Erving. But on the specifics of Erving's performances (somewhat moot unless anyone's putting big emphasis on versus Erving performance) it might be interesting to find out more if Erving was being outplayed (fuller numbers, at the time perceptions etc).

[Clyde Frazier]

Question regarding John Havlicek (I'll probably ask in the #28 thread, didn't want to forget now):

How was his defense against Dr. J in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals? Bob Ryan wrote:

"(Havlicek's) defensive job on a much younger and friskier Julius Erving in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals against Philadelphia was nothing short of spellbinding."

Is that Ryan just advocating for a Celtic legend, or did older Hondo slow down a Julius Erving one year removed from arguably the GOAT playoff performance in professional basketball history?

I don't know about that but some contextual info (or assertions) from Bill Simmons, on Erving

lost five straight playoff series in his NBA prime in which he barely outplayed Bob Gross (1977), got outplayed by Bob Dandridge (’78), played Larry Kenon to a draw (’79), played Jamaal Wilkes to a draw (’80) and got severely outplayed by Larry Bird (’81)

Obviously there's an issue with the dating of NBA prime (perhaps it should have been his prime but ...

For instance the Gross in '77 per 36 production (obviously note that Gross is in foul trouble and couldn't play 36 minutes unless you don't care about him fouling out)

Gross points 22.55421687; rebounds 7.373493976; assists 4.554216867; steals 2.819277108; blocks 0.43373494; personal fouls 5.638554217; fg% 0.667; ts% 0.691857371

Erving points 26.41935484; rebounds 5.951612903; assists 4.35483871; steals 2.322580645; blocks 1.016129032; personal fouls 2.467741935, fg% 0.543; ts% 0.604410202.

The value of those two performances obviously depends what you're getting from your backup (166 minutes for Gross, 248 for Erving; or 27.7 mpg to 41.3.


Haven't got time to search out if there's full numbers for '79 Spurs versus 76ers (not that I'd necessarily know the best place to go anyhow), but Erving outscored Kenon and Kenon's TS% is awful for that playoffs (.468).

Anyway big picture point '77 Erving isn't the same as '76 Erving. But on the specifics of Erving's performances (somewhat moot unless anyone's putting big emphasis on versus Erving performance) it might be interesting to find out more if Erving was being outplayed (fuller numbers, at the time perceptions etc).

...I can't take anything Ryan or Simmons say celtics-related that seriously. It can be truly grating at times.

[colts18]

Gross points 22.55421687; rebounds 7.373493976; assists 4.554216867; steals 2.819277108; blocks 0.43373494; personal fouls 5.638554217; fg% 0.667; ts% 0.691857371

Erving points 26.41935484; rebounds 5.951612903; assists 4.35483871; steals 2.322580645; blocks 1.016129032; personal fouls 2.467741935, fg% 0.543; ts% 0.604410202.

Helpful tip: You should round your numbers up to only 1 decimal place. 10 is excessive

[drza]

I'll vote Scottie Pippen. My reasoning was laid out in post 21 of this thread, which I repost in spoilers below. Bear with me on my access...I'm in the Detroit area that got hit by storm going into the weekend so my internet access has been spotty. I know someone replied to my initial post, pointing out (among other things) that Frazier played under 100 possessions/game, which is a good thing to point out. But that doesn't materially change my conclusions.

Essentially, I think Pippen's size and versatility makes him the more valuable contributor.

Spoiler:

Pippen vs Frazier

I've got four players I'm seriously considering for this slot at the moment: Frazier, Isiah Thomas, Pippen and Kidd. I've spent my last few posts talking about individuals, so I wanted to do a comparison here. Ideally it'd be all 4 of them in a battle royal, but there is a such thing as too much of a good thing. I'm feeling like I wouldn't be able to do such a diverse comp any justice if I split it four ways here. So instead I'll start off with Pippen vs Frazier, and hopefully I can come back and work Kidd and Zeke in later.

I thought Frazier and Pippen would make an interesting comp because, in a strange way, they actually have some similarities to their general games. Both played a lot of point for their teams, but neither was a traditional full-on distributing point guard. Both were ridiculous on defense, and used their size/athletic ability to give them added versatility at that end of the court. So without further ado, let's take a look at how Clyde and Pip match up.

Box score comp
Regular season, 10 year primes (raw for Walt, per100 possessions for Pippen)
Walt Frazier 1969 - 1978: 20.1 pts (54.5% TS), 6.1 reb, 6.4 ast (TO not kept for most of career)
Scottie Pippen 1990 - 1999: 26.2 pts (54.4% TS), 9.8 reb, 8.0 ast (4.1 TO)

Playoffs, 10 year primes (raw for Walt, per100 possessions for Pippen)
Walt Frazier 1969 - 1975: 21.2 pts ( 55.9% TS), 7.2 reb, 6.4 ast (TO not kept)
Scottie Pippen 1990 - 1999: 25.9 pts (52.3% TS), 10.7 reb, 7.4 ast (4.1 TO)

With the chasm in pace from the early 70s to the 90s, I had to do some sort of pace adjustment. Here I used Frazier's raw numbers and Pippen's per 100 numbers. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it gets them on somewhat more similar pace scales. A few interesting things show up to me in these boxes

*It's interesting that, if the pace adjustment has any validity at all, Pippen was counted on to score at least as heavily (by volume) as Frazier if not more. Frazier is known more as a scorer, while Pippen is thought of more as a jack-of-all-trades. As Penbeast and others have pointed out, pace adjusting might be more beneficial for counting/hustle categories like rebounds than scoring...but still, it appears that Pippen (by scoring volume) was relied on at least as heavily as Frazier on his team/era.

*Frazier is clearly the more efficient scorer, especially in the playoffs. Their efficiencies matched in the regular season without era adjustment, but (depending on how you do it) Frazier was doing his scoring in a more inefficient era which could give him even more "extra credit" in this category. And he doesn't even need extra credit in the postseason, as Frazier's scoring efficiency went up in the postseaosn while Pippen's went down and thus Frazier opens up some space even without era adjustment.

*It makes sense that Pippen (as the small forward) was hitting the boards harder than Frazier (as a point guard). However, you'd expect the reverse in the assists, and you don't get it. I realize that Frazier played in a different era where maybe assists were harder to come by (outside of the phantom 19 assist game) and that the Knicks were more of an ensemble cast that didn't require a ball-dominant PG distributor, but still. Pippen having a two-assist advantage in pace-adjusted assists over Frazier is still counterintuitive, and emphasizes to me that Pippen was acting just as much as a floor general as Frazier was.

The stylistics

Frazier is known as one of the best defensive point guards in history, who was also an excellent scorer and a big-time postseason performer. Pippen is known as arguably the best defensive small forward in history, who was also an excellent point forward that showed that he could be a number one option in MJ's retirement absence. But let's see if we can go a bit further than that.

Frazier was a big point guard who had an excellent mid-range scoring game. Last thread someone used Andre' Miller as a scoring comp for him, with his ability to score efficiently from 17-feet and in. The 3-point line wasn't in the NBA in Frazier's time, and his game was not about stretching the D from long range. He wasn't generating a lot of free throws (career average 5.1 FTA, max 7.2 FTA), and as mentioned he was playing in an ensemble offense where he didn't have to do all of the heavy lifting as a general/distributor for his offenses to work. The Knicks' offense was generally good-not-great during Frazier's prime (3rd, 5th, 8th, 7th, 3rd, 10th from 69 - 74 in a 17-team league) before fading into the double-digits from 75 on. On defense, the Knicks made more of their money with rankings of 4th, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 4th, 5th from 69 - 74 before similarly falling off the cliff in 75. Interestingly at least according to the box scores, Frazier seemed to still be on his game in '75 (78 games played, 21.5 points, 6.1 asts, 4.8 boards, 19.9 PER...those numbers aren't far off of what he produced at his peak, but the team results plummeted as his teammates changed around him.

Pippen is one of the most versatile wings that I've ever seen. At a long 6-7, he had the quickness to defend a lot of PGs but the length to hold his own with power forwards. Pippen was also a high riser, with leaping ability as another area where he was overshadowed by Jordan. Pippen wasn't a natural shooter, but he developed a pretty timely jumper out to 3-point range as his career progressed. He was an excellent ball-handler, capable of handling the ball full-court for entire games at a time without issue. The Bulls tended to flirt often with the #1 offense and/or #1 defense in the league, but it's hard to isolate that to Pippen considering who his teammate was.

Non-boxscore impact

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of numbers to work with here. Frazier missed the databall era completely by 25 years and rarely missed enough games for good In/Out numbers. Pippen overlapped with the databall era at the end of his career, but we don't have a lot to work with in his prime. Often in these cases, I'll look for trends with players of similar style/caliber.

In 1998 Pippen missed a bunch of games, but Dennis Rodman almost doubled his minutes from '97. Essentially, Rodman and Pippen flip-flopped minutes (and possibly role/defensive importance) in those two seasons. As a result, the Bulls's defense in '98 was able to survive with him out so much. But I think that has less to do with Pippen, and more to do with Rodman. But the flip side of the defense not falling off much without him, is that Pip DID score very well on offense. His normalized PI offensive RAPM for '98 was +7.0, good for a tie for 10th in the NBA that year just ahead of Gary Payton (+6.2). It's interesting that he's next to Payton, because stylistically Payton also plays a bit like Frazier (e.g. good size, good midrange game, good finisher, not a mega distributor). The match isn't exact, but I could see their ORTGs being similar.

On the flip side of the ball, the best 5-year normalized DRAPM score a non-big-man from 1998 -2012 belonged to Shane Battier (+4.3) and Ron Artest (+4.1). Meanwhile, the best 5-year normalized DRAPM scores for full-time point guards over that stretch were Jaosn Kidd (+3.3) and old John Stockton (+3.2). The numbers aren't so important here, more-so this is meant as a mild evidence point that great small forwards on defense can generally have a higher impact on team defense than great defensive point guards. I recognize that some believe Frazier to be the defensive GOAT at PG, but likewise many believe the same of Pip at SF. Estimating similar best-case-scenario situations for their projected defensive impact, I'd have to say that I believe Pippen would have a larger defensive impact than Frazier if we had the numbers for it.

Conclusions

As I've looked at this comp, outside of scoring efficiency I would say that Pippen has looked a bit better across the board. A bigger presence on the glass, similar/greater assist numbers, and (I believe) a larger defensive impact. Frazier looks good, but at pretty much every turn I believe Pippen looked better.

All told, I'd have to say that I take Pippen in this particular comparison.

[ChiTown6rings]

Vote for Frazier

In the end it gets down to leading a team to victory - Clyde led the way in Game 7, and played well in the clutch all the time.

Scottie goes to the migraine game and the 1.2 second Kukoc shot.

Maybe not a lot to go on, but the two are pretty close, and I think Clyde came through when it counted, and Scottie didn't.

I've always bashed Scottie Pippen for quitting in that game 3 of the 1994 ECF but he actually played a pretty good game up until 1.2 left in regulation.

Code: Select all

<PRE>                                                                                             
                  Basi                                                                       
Starters            MP FG FGA  FG% 3P 3PA  3P% FT FTA   FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Scottie Pippen   40:00 10  20 .500  2   4 .500  3   3 1.000   0   7   7   4   2   1   2  3  25
</PRE>

[Owly]

Question regarding John Havlicek (I'll probably ask in the #28 thread, didn't want to forget now):

How was his defense against Dr. J in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals? Bob Ryan wrote:

"(Havlicek's) defensive job on a much younger and friskier Julius Erving in the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals against Philadelphia was nothing short of spellbinding."

Is that Ryan just advocating for a Celtic legend, or did older Hondo slow down a Julius Erving one year removed from arguably the GOAT playoff performance in professional basketball history?

I don't know about that but some contextual info (or assertions) from Bill Simmons, on Erving

lost five straight playoff series in his NBA prime in which he barely outplayed Bob Gross (1977), got outplayed by Bob Dandridge (’78), played Larry Kenon to a draw (’79), played Jamaal Wilkes to a draw (’80) and got severely outplayed by Larry Bird (’81)

Obviously there's an issue with the dating of NBA prime (perhaps it should have been his prime but ...

For instance the Gross in '77 per 36 production (obviously note that Gross is in foul trouble and couldn't play 36 minutes unless you don't care about him fouling out)

Gross points 22.55421687; rebounds 7.373493976; assists 4.554216867; steals 2.819277108; blocks 0.43373494; personal fouls 5.638554217; fg% 0.667; ts% 0.691857371

Erving points 26.41935484; rebounds 5.951612903; assists 4.35483871; steals 2.322580645; blocks 1.016129032; personal fouls 2.467741935, fg% 0.543; ts% 0.604410202.

The value of those two performances obviously depends what you're getting from your backup (166 minutes for Gross, 248 for Erving; or 27.7 mpg to 41.3.


Haven't got time to search out if there's full numbers for '79 Spurs versus 76ers (not that I'd necessarily know the best place to go anyhow), but Erving outscored Kenon and Kenon's TS% is awful for that playoffs (.468).

Anyway big picture point '77 Erving isn't the same as '76 Erving. But on the specifics of Erving's performances (somewhat moot unless anyone's putting big emphasis on versus Erving performance) it might be interesting to find out more if Erving was being outplayed (fuller numbers, at the time perceptions etc).

...I can't take anything Ryan or Simmons say celtics-related that seriously. It can be truly grating at times.

Fair enough, I'm certainly not advocating taking Simmons as gospel (indeed see the phrasing above - assertions). Or saying that Simmons' emphasis here on performance in elimination series, is particularly helpful generally. But I recalled he had something relevent to the idea of Havlicek outplaying Erving and whether it's true and if it means anything. FWIW here Simmons isn't talking about Boston, though he is talking about a big rival.

Gross points 22.55421687; rebounds 7.373493976; assists 4.554216867; steals 2.819277108; blocks 0.43373494; personal fouls 5.638554217; fg% 0.667; ts% 0.691857371

Erving points 26.41935484; rebounds 5.951612903; assists 4.35483871; steals 2.322580645; blocks 1.016129032; personal fouls 2.467741935, fg% 0.543; ts% 0.604410202.

Helpful tip: You should round your numbers up to only 1 decimal place. 10 is excessive

To be clear I'm not rounding for 3 reasons, 2 general and a third context specific:

1) I want numbers to be reusable. If someone wants to do other calculations with numbers it makes them less accurate if they've already been rounded.
e.g. I don't like rounding on things like Bkb-Ref where it (don't know if this is still the case, and whether it happened in many categories) doesn't even round it just shows you the digits as if you could see all the following digit (e.g. 6.99 could be shown as 6.9).

2) It's accurate and not open to agenda. Some people on message boards round very dubiously. Here you get the full number, and if there's a screwup it's because I did the maths wrong, rather than trying to screw around with it.
e.g. Someone told me that Tim Duncan and Shareef Abdur Rahim were both the same by the boxscore. The reasoning given "both are 20-10 guys".

3) It's quicker and I have increasingly less time available for this project. If you think it is useful and would be helpful in gleaning info quicker, feel free to repost the numbers rounded.


My leaning would be Frazier because (to oversimplify) I think he's more capable of being the best player on a champ albeit both probably need at least an ensemble cast to have a fairly good chance. Both have some mixed bag reviews on intangiables (Pip has been covered, Frazier took some heat for resigning as captain and for his last two years in New York, though this probably isn't as big as the possible Pippen issues). But I'm not sure I'm confident enough to vote it. Plus the tie being broken I don't particularly want to re-tie it at this point. I'd go Frazier if it were still tied.

[Narigo]

Vote: Walt Frazier

On defense, they are extremely close, but on offense, Frazier is a better scorer than Pippen was. He was able to lead the Knicks to a title as no.1 option when Reed was no longer capable of being a scoring threat. I also believe that Frazier had a better peak and prime than Pippen

[Jim Naismith]

My leaning would be Frazier because (to oversimplify) I think he's more capable of being the best player on a champ albeit both probably need at least an ensemble cast to have a fairly good chance. Both have some mixed bag reviews on intangiables (Pip has been covered, Frazier took some heat for resigning as captain and for his last two years in New York, though this probably isn't as big as the possible Pippen issues). But I'm not sure I'm confident enough to vote it. Plus the tie being broken I don't particularly want to re-tie it at this point. I'd go Frazier if it were still tied.

That seems to be the case right now.

[Clyde Frazier]

...I can't take anything Ryan or Simmons say celtics-related that seriously. It can be truly grating at times.

Fair enough, I'm certainly not advocating taking Simmons as gospel (indeed see the phrasing above - assertions). Or saying that Simmons' emphasis here on performance in elimination series, is particularly helpful generally. But I recalled he had something relevent to the idea of Havlicek outplaying Erving and whether it's true and if it means anything. FWIW here Simmons isn't talking about Boston, though he is talking about a big rival.

Got it. Meant to add a thanks for exploring his claims with the #s.

[PCProductions]

Vote: Scottie Pippen

I like his longevity a lot better and he just looks better at everything besides scoring efficiency. Scottie also was the de facto 2nd option for a 6 title run and was an MVP candidate when Jordan was away; it is clear that he was capable of leading a team when throughout most of his career was not asked to. His skillset is as versatile as anybody who has every played and is among the GOAT perimeter defenders. Frazier doesn't have enough "stuff" nor quality years compared to Pippen, if you ask me.

[penbeast0]

THERE IT IS

[ceiling raiser]

I don't mind the result either way, but did Owly vote? If so, we're still in a sudden death (since he and PCP cancel out), otherwise PCP's vote gives it to Scottie.

[penbeast0]

I didn't count Owly as a vote or Frazier would have won since I had "SUDDEN DEATH" posted and was checking in every 20 minutes or so.