OT: Owner Bruce Levenson will sell the Atlanta Hawks

[musiqsoulchild]

Again, just to reiterate, I still dont get what that second comment means in a scouting context.

I can think of it as being for example, too stubborn and therefore not so coachable. Or not very sophisiticated and thus culturally maybe the NBA is a huge shock to a player from Africa.

But as we ALL know, those generalizations/insults dont apply to Deng. Dude is like aristocracy and shyt.

I can't think of anything good that would come after, "He's not perfect. He's got some African in him".

Plus, isn't the whole point of racism based on generalizations?

The comment about Deng is indefensible.

More importantly, I am not defending it.

From the outset - ever since I saw that post about Danny reading the scouting report verbatim - I am actually confused. Very, very , very confused.

I cannot see any reasonable insult/comment/joke/compliment/anything that begins with "He is not perfect" and then ends with "He has African in him"....and ends up in a scouting report.

My hope is that someone more experienced and wiser than me can explain WTF is going on.

[panthermark]

Yeah....that scouting report is far worse than the owners email.

That entire phrase is just....WTF....

Change "African" with a Mexican or Indian or Irish or Catholic or Jewish or pretty much anything...and you are going to piss someone off. That phrase makes no sense in a scouting report.

[musiqsoulchild]

Well, considering it comes right after "He's not perfect," that is a little insulting. In white America a phrase like that is, more often than not, viewed as derogatory. Even your "complimentary" description is stereotypical. "Them blacks sure can dance and jump!"

Overall, though, it is completely and totally unnecessary to even mention it. Let's put it this way... I guarantee no scouting report of Steve Nash ever said, "He's not perfect. He's got some Canadian in him."

That is completely unfair. You dont know the context at all.

My wife's family is from Ecuador....they are a musical and dancing culture to begin with. I am their Indian son-in-law....they call me Negrito, which is a term of endearment because I gel with me, I dance with them and share life with them to the fullest when we go to visit.

Thats like me saying Cuban music is so good because it draws heavily from African rhythms and movements. And you saying thats racist.

I was very careful with my wording, which is why I said "in white America," where terms like that, generally, aren't meant as compliments. If you are Indian and/or non-American, that wouldn't apply to you. I also didn't say what you said was racist, but it is a stereotypical comment if it was coming from a white American, as we have a history with minstrel shows which basically portrayed blacks as a mock-able race. Obviously, different words have different meaning in different cultures. Your wife's family probably speaks Spanish (or Kichwa) and there is a HUGE difference is what the word negro means here and in a Spanish-speaking country. Well, technically, it means the same thing (black), but the connotation is much, much different. If you were to call a black child negrito here, you just might have some trouble.

Anyway, I wasn't calling you out. I was just trying to explain why a bunch of rich white Americans on a professional conference call saying "He's not perfect. He has some African in him," might not be the smartest thing to do. That's all. Again, certain terms have certain connotations, so it's best to use your better judgement and not use those terms.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to explain.

I am aware of how racially charged the country is (especially right after Ferguson, Sterling and St. Louis).

I am not siding with any of the ATL owners or scouts here....honestly, I just dont understand what the scouting reports language/intent was...that's all.

[musiqsoulchild]

One more thing to add: Sterotypes by themselves are not racist.

Not seeing beyond the sterotype is most defintely racist.

You can't simply view this is in a vacuum, otherwise you (and I don't really mean you personally, Musiq, but people in general) are being disingenuous regarding the complexity of the matter. This is America and an issue of race in the heart of the South. Stereotypes cut much deeper under that context with the infamous shared history of black and white than a much more rarer and less frequent, far less volatile clash of cultures. The history of the Indian-Ecuadorian relationship can't possibly be reasonably compared to that of the black-white relationship in the American South.

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You are right.

Let me ask you this though...and I am not doing this as an academic excersise, I really want to learn. Wouldnt the South also have a thicker skin just because of what has transpired there over the centuries/decades?

Meaning, that first email is just par for the course in that context.....but the Deng comment is plain absurd. And racist (?).

I put a (?) in there, because I dont see what the implied racism is there....is the comment code for Deng is "uppiity", "ignorant", "uncivilized", "dumb", un-cultured"?

Thats all I am trying to get at...I wish the article gave more context so I can SQUARELY put Bruce Levenson in the "Racist" camp and not the ignorant +dumb camp.

[Polynice4Pippen]

One more thing to add: Sterotypes by themselves are not racist.

Not seeing beyond the sterotype is most defintely racist.

You can't simply view this is in a vacuum, otherwise you (and I don't really mean you personally, Musiq, but people in general) are being disingenuous regarding the complexity of the matter. This is America and an issue of race in the heart of the South. Stereotypes cut much deeper under that context with the infamous shared history of black and white than a much more rarer and less frequent, far less volatile clash of cultures. The history of the Indian-Ecuadorian relationship can't possibly be reasonably compared to that of the black-white relationship in the American South.

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using RealGM Forums mobile app

You are right.

Let me ask you this though...and I am not doing this as an academic excersise, I really want to learn. Wouldnt the South also have a thicker skin just because of what has transpired there over the centuries/decades?

Meaning, that first email is just par for the course in that context.....but the Deng comment is plain absurd. And racist (?).

I put a (?) in there, because I dont see what the implied racism is there....is the comment code for Deng is "uppiity", "ignorant", "uncivilized", "dumb", un-cultured"?

Thats all I am trying to get at...I wish the article gave more context so I can SQUARELY put Bruce Levenson in the "Racist" camp and not the ignorant +dumb camp.

The South has come a long ways, but scars remain. The history of the South in regards to race relations is so shameful that there's a rightful desire by the majority of white people to no longer be linked to that dubious reputation and a fatigue on the part of many black people as well as great suspicion about having to still deal with racism and the same tired stereotypes in 2014.

I think the implied racism regarding a "he's got African in him" comment could refer to his amazing stamina and the great long distance African runners (a source of pride, but I hate to break the news, not all Africans can run for days ), it could refer to the stereotype of Africans being more disciplined and humble and low maintenance than African-Americans (maybe Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Derrick Rose, Anthony Davis and even Kevin Love are African as well ), or a more sinister take, maybe Africans "know their place" and are much more ready to submit and take orders from whites/Europeans/colonizers. Honestly though, it's hard to tell what in the world "he's got African in him" even means.

[LordBaldric]

The Deng has a little African in him is so absurd, the only thing that came to mind was this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWdfDsLvm9I[/youtube]

[dougthonus]

The Ferry thing is beyond strange. Like others, I can't even begin to figure out what the hell that even means.

It seems like from one report that he read it, and to me this is far worse. If so, it implies that this parlance was used enough by scouts that it actually makes sense to someone and is a valid way to judge the recruits. That said, if there was a formal probe created by this incident, and it didn't uncover anything else, then the implication is that it wasn't a wide spread issue.

Either way, the Deng thing doesn't seem to relate to Levenson at all. I agree his comments were insensitive. I think it's certainly possible he's racist or possible he's not. I think he could have discussed race in a more sensitive way at a minimum, but I'd say the bar for political correctness is pretty low when the email is going out to three people (I think?).

[Mech Engineer]

Maybe the "African" means having more endurance associated with many long distance runners in Africa. Maybe Ferry wanted his coach to know he can put Deng out on the court for 48 min a game with no breaks.

[th4d]

African stereotypes are very common. poverty, violence, disease, refugees and the lion king are the first things that come to mind. I dont know anything about african culture ...

[musiqsoulchild]

African stereotypes are very common. poverty, violence, disease, refugees and the lion king are the first things that come to mind. I dont know anything about african culture ...

Now connect those to Deng's basketball scouting report.

See my point?

[th4d]

African stereotypes are very common. poverty, violence, disease, refugees and the lion king are the first things that come to mind. I dont know anything about african culture ...

Now connect those to Deng's basketball scouting report.

See my point?

If we're just speculating on this ...

I think, if I'd say something like that, id mean that mabye because he comes from Africa he understands the decadence of the NBA and american/western culture? And that might be a character trait ?
I dont know ...

[Ben]

The Ferry thing is beyond strange. Like others, I can't even begin to figure out what the hell that even means.

It seems like from one report that he read it, and to me this is far worse. If so, it implies that this parlance was used enough by scouts that it actually makes sense to someone and is a valid way to judge the recruits. That said, if there was a formal probe created by this incident, and it didn't uncover anything else, then the implication is that it wasn't a wide spread issue.

Either way, the Deng thing doesn't seem to relate to Levenson at all. I agree his comments were insensitive. I think it's certainly possible he's racist or possible he's not. I think he could have discussed race in a more sensitive way at a minimum, but I'd say the bar for political correctness is pretty low when the email is going out to three people (I think?).

I agree with everything that you wrote, and I want to emphasize the last sentence. To me, the word "insensitive" really doesn't apply when you're having a private conversation with a few people, none of whom will be offended by what you write. One might claim that his analysis was in poor taste, although as others have pointed out, he was very clearly trying to maximize profit, and the world is FULL of people who utilize poor taste in order to do that-- who in fact DO profit by utilizing poor taste. One might claim that his analysis was fallacious-- that white customers were not staying away for the reasons that he guessed, or that African American customers had more money to spend than what he indicated. But that would be an empirical matter, not a normative one.

The owner's email wasn't racist. It wasn't offensive to the people to whom it was addressed. However, I can completely see why, once it's leaked (as was probably threatened), people of color might be ticked off by the insinuation that their money isn't good enough or that people of their race don't represent enough capital to comprise a sufficient fanbase. And I can see why, if enough people get mad about it, Levenson would become a less desirable owner for the NBA. (I also suspect that he wants to sell the team, as others have intimated.)

That said, it's hard for me to understand why anyone who's ticked at Levenson isn't equally ticked off at David Stern for trying to make players dress in more of a corporate fashion, and thus trying to make the players and the game appeal more to white, corporate sensibilities. How is that any different? Levenson apparently wanted the music and the staff to appeal in those kinds of ways. Yet Stern is lauded for having gained the NBA much more popular traction at home and abroad. If Stern isn't considered offensive, should Levenson be?

[Polynice4Pippen]

The Ferry thing is beyond strange. Like others, I can't even begin to figure out what the hell that even means.

It seems like from one report that he read it, and to me this is far worse. If so, it implies that this parlance was used enough by scouts that it actually makes sense to someone and is a valid way to judge the recruits. That said, if there was a formal probe created by this incident, and it didn't uncover anything else, then the implication is that it wasn't a wide spread issue.

Either way, the Deng thing doesn't seem to relate to Levenson at all. I agree his comments were insensitive. I think it's certainly possible he's racist or possible he's not. I think he could have discussed race in a more sensitive way at a minimum, but I'd say the bar for political correctness is pretty low when the email is going out to three people (I think?).

I agree with everything that you wrote, and I want to emphasize the last sentence. To me, the word "insensitive" really doesn't apply when you're having a private conversation with a few people, none of whom will be offended by what you write. One might claim that his analysis was in poor taste, although as others have pointed out, he was very clearly trying to maximize profit, and the world is FULL of people who utilize poor taste in order to do that-- who in fact DO profit by utilizing poor taste. One might claim that his analysis was fallacious-- that white customers were not staying away for the reasons that he guessed, or that African American customers had more money to spend than what he indicated. But that would be an empirical matter, not a normative one.

The owner's email wasn't racist. It wasn't offensive to the people to whom it was addressed. However, I can completely see why, once it's leaked (as was probably threatened), people of color might be ticked off by the insinuation that their money isn't good enough or that people of their race don't represent enough capital to comprise a sufficient fanbase. And I can see why, if enough people get mad about it, Levenson would become a less desirable owner for the NBA. (I also suspect that he wants to sell the team, as others have intimated.)

That said, it's hard for me to understand why anyone who's ticked at Levenson isn't equally ticked off at David Stern for trying to make players dress in more of a corporate fashion, and thus trying to make the players and the game appeal more to white, corporate sensibilities. How is that any different? Levenson apparently wanted the music and the staff to appeal in those kinds of ways. Yet Stern is lauded for having gained the NBA much more popular traction at home and abroad. If Stern isn't considered offensive, should Levenson be?

Just had this small bone to pick with your post. I know plenty of white people who would be offended by that type of stereotyping even as the "insults" don't apply to them personally. I'm not Native American but the name Redskins offends me, makes me uncomfortable. I'm not gay but homophobic slurs and the constant Michael Sam and Jason Collins jokes make me cringe and I do find them insensitive even as they don't apply to me. But otherwise I'm in agreement with your post, Ben.

[kyrv]

African stereotypes are very common. poverty, violence, disease, refugees and the lion king are the first things that come to mind. I dont know anything about african culture ...

Now connect those to Deng's basketball scouting report.

See my point?

If we're just speculating on this ...

I think, if I'd say something like that, id mean that mabye because he comes from Africa he understands the decadence of the NBA and american/western culture? And that might be a character trait ?
I dont know ...

I just don't see how those relate to a basketball scouting report though, like msq said.

Of course, I have no better guesses. If Deng was a hip-hop culture dude I would have guessed that.

My guess is that to include something like this in a basketball scouting report, he's a flaming racist. But just a guess.

[HomoSapien]

I used to live in Atlanta, and went to plenty of Hawks games. I had actually been on the kiss cam myself, and I'm not Black.

In all honestly, Levenson could have probably said exactly the same thing and gotten away with it if he had just used the word "diversity" instead of naming races specifically. This is an instance where some sort of racial sensitivity training may have gone a long way.

Though I don't think that Levenson is a racist, I do find his email to be extremely cringe worthy. I'm not losing any sleep over someone like him losing their team.

[bledredwine]

Finally actually read the letter. Dear lord how politically correct do we have to be? Selling a franchise because of that is way over the top IMO and he wouldn't have put it out there if he meant it in such a supremacist way.

[treis]

By the way, shouldn't the offended people here be the white Atlantans? Levenson basically said that his white fan base is a bunch of southern racists that don't want to be around black people. That's fairly insulting.

[dougthonus]

Just had this small bone to pick with your post. I know plenty of white people who would be offended by that type of stereotyping even as the "insults" don't apply to them personally. I'm not Native American but the name Redskins offends me, makes me uncomfortable. I'm not gay but homophobic slurs and the constant Michael Sam and Jason Collins jokes make me cringe and I do find them insensitive even as they don't apply to me. But otherwise I'm in agreement with your post, Ben.

I agree with those things you find offensive, and if Levenson used a slur, I'd have found it offensive too [as would everyone else I think]. Those situations are different. He didn't say anything directly insulting towards blacks except that they don't cheer as hard in his perspective.

Again, the guy could be a huge racist, but the other thing I'd add is that since the email went out to three people, the fact that he denounces the views he believes are racist by fans on the forums, would indicate not. Normally you could dismiss that, but since the email is sent to two or three people, I think it holds a lot more weight, you might not be prone to hedge your bets amongst a select group.

[kingkirk]

That said, it's hard for me to understand why anyone who's ticked at Levenson isn't equally ticked off at David Stern for trying to make players dress in more of a corporate fashion, and thus trying to make the players and the game appeal more to white, corporate sensibilities. How is that any different? Levenson apparently wanted the music and the staff to appeal in those kinds of ways. Yet Stern is lauded for having gained the NBA much more popular traction at home and abroad. If Stern isn't considered offensive, should Levenson be?

Great post.

That said, i liked what Stern did in cleaning up the image of the league, but now i feel racist in saying that.

You've confused me now.

[kingkirk]

Though I don't think that Levenson is a racist, I do find his email to be extremely cringe worthy. I'm not losing any sleep over someone like him losing their team.

I won't lose any sleep over it either, but i do think its wrong for him to lose a massive investment like this based on some leaked email.

In that regard, i agree with Mark Cuban.

I have no issue with some form of punishment coming down for terrible comments, and i think Sterling's action against him was just given the history, but if this one singular event leads to the Hawks owner losing his franchise, well, that's absurd imo.