OT:Hawks Owner Levensen to sell team after 2012 racist email

[ATLTimekeeper]

Actually, they've been in the playoffs for seven years in a row.

And I know that. The previous 8 years out of the playoffs and economic downturn probably had more to do with a half-empty stadium than the crowd being "too black." Levensen's theories weren't based on any research, which makes this whole thing even more uncomfortable. He's basically given a lot of benefit of the doubt by a lot of people here and in the media for arguing on behalf of his "business sense," when he's clearly done NO work to back up his proposals.

[Kohanz]

Well, the stereotypes in which Levenson dabbled haven't been helped by today's revelation of the Ray Rice elevator video.

The Baltimore Ravens have just terminated Rice's contract.

The stereotypes that Levenson dabbled in revolved around economics (not spending enough at games). As far as I recall, violence did not enter what he said, otherwise it would have been on another level of offensiveness. I think it reveals a bit about you though that you would make this connection...

[Spacing]

Well, the stereotypes in which Levenson dabbled haven't been helped by today's revelation of the Ray Rice elevator video.

The Baltimore Ravens have just terminated Rice's contract.

The stereotypes that Levenson dabbled in revolved around economics (not spending enough at games). As far as I recall, violence did not enter what he said, otherwise it would have been on another level of offensiveness. I think it reveals a bit about you though that you would make this connection...

This.


Also what does the Ray Rice video have to do with Danny Ferry saying Luol Deng "has some african in him"

I don't see the correlation between a wife beating NFL player and Luol Deng being African.

Did I miss something somewhere?

[ontnut]

I have to say its refreshing to see the level of dialogue on these type of issues on this forum. Even 5 years ago I'm sure the opinions would have been much different.
Heck, if this was reported on cbc.ca, the majority of the comments even today would be appalling.

So kudos to you raptors board, it's great to see!

Oh, and is it racist that I would like to see more asian and indian cheerleaders? Just saying.

Bring back Ashley! lol...

[hst420]

I never rejected any historical context of African American history. I can cite numerous examples of hesitance by the legal system and media to describe black on white crime as racially motivated. Because not all of it is racially motivated, although some of it is and blatant yet under reported. The vast majority of African Americans protesting in Ferguson are law abiding and don't bear a resentment towards whites.

Good god. No clue.

You will respond that my attack is ad hominem blah blah blah because I don't present arguments. But the ignorance in this progression of ideas (literally every single thing in it is deeply confused and the whole is a mirror into a very fearful soul) indicates a degree of immaturity, insularity and egotism that no amount of arguing can hope to undo. Only age and the wisdom it may bring (if you actually risk your self and not just your ideas) can hope to do this. Good luck. You'll need it.

In actuality I have many black friends and I don't fear anyone, nor am I intimidated by just anyone. Regardless of skin color, I grew up in a less than affluent area and have met many people from all races, cultures and creeds. Unfortunately you're myopic, finger-pointing, bleeding heart liberalism is the very thing that has hurt the African American communities in various Democratically run cities across the United States. So you can spew your vitriol elsewhere, I'd ask you your stance on gentrification, but I can already guess it.

African Americans can't wait on the United States government to fix all of it's problems, it has to look inward and make strides. They'll be waiting a long time if they expect the government to fix all their problems. And the pervasive hair-trigger racist cards thrown by liberals isn't helping people understand that while the problems largely systemic or socio-economic, not entirely so.

You sir, have no clue.

[daswunderboy]

I never rejected any historical context of African American history. I can cite numerous examples of hesitance by the legal system and media to describe black on white crime as racially motivated. Because not all of it is racially motivated, although some of it is and blatant yet under reported. The vast majority of African Americans protesting in Ferguson are law abiding and don't bear a resentment towards whites.

Good god. No clue.

You will respond that my attack is ad hominem blah blah blah because I don't present arguments. But the ignorance in this progression of ideas (literally every single thing in it is deeply confused and the whole is a mirror into a very fearful soul) indicates a degree of immaturity, insularity and egotism that no amount of arguing can hope to undo. Only age and the wisdom it may bring (if you actually risk your self and not just your ideas) can hope to do this. Good luck. You'll need it.

In actuality I have many black friends and I don't fear anyone, nor am I intimidated by just anyone. Regardless of skin color, I grew up in a less than affluent area and have met many people from all races, cultures and creeds. Unfortunately you're myopic, finger-pointing, bleeding heart liberalism is the very thing that has hurt the African American communities in various Democratically run cities across the United States. So you can spew your vitriol elsewhere, I'd ask you your stance on gentrification, but I can already guess it.

African Americans can't wait on the United States government to fix all of it's problems, it has to look inward and make strides. They'll be waiting a long time if they expect the government to fix all their problems. And the pervasive hair-trigger racist cards thrown by liberals isn't helping people understand that while the problems largely systemic or socio-economic, not entirely so.

You sir, have no clue.

Yeah...you're kind of the one with no clue. Look up redlining, blockbusting. Tell me how much they could do to fix that by "bucking up!" There are lots of institutional barriers. To try to blame it on "liberals" shows you know nothing and are not worth talking to.

[Fairview4Life]

http://deadspin.com/yes-bruce-levensons ... 631670611/

[hankscorpioLA]

Well, the stereotypes in which Levenson dabbled haven't been helped by today's revelation of the Ray Rice elevator video.

The Baltimore Ravens have just terminated Rice's contract.

The stereotypes that Levenson dabbled in revolved around economics (not spending enough at games). As far as I recall, violence did not enter what he said, otherwise it would have been on another level of offensiveness. I think it reveals a bit about you though that you would make this connection...

"My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites"

I don't think he is suggesting that the whites were scared away by the lack of purchasing power of black fans.

Now...it is true that he goes on to reject that claim, but he's still dealing in the stereotype that if there are black people around, white people will feel unsafe.

[hankscorpioLA]

Do young African Americans get hounded by the cops? Yes, is it fair? No, should it go any further than being inconvenienced? Not if that person doesn't have anything to hide or cop to, which isn't justifying the critical brow beating by the cops, but it is true.

This seems to me to be somewhat more than an "inconvenience".

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/walki ... ls-arrests

On Friday afternoon, August 22nd around 5:20pm, while innocently walking by myself from a restaurant on Wilshire Blvd, to my car up LaCienega Blvd my freedom was taken from me by the Beverly Hills Police Department.

Within seconds, I was detained and told to sit on the curb of the very busy street, during rush hour traffic.

Within minutes, I was surrounded by 6 police cars, handcuffed very tightly, fully searched for weapons, and placed back on the curb.

Within an hour, I was transported to the Beverly Hills Police Headquarters, photographed, finger printed and put under a $100,000 bail and accused of armed bank robbery and accessory to robbery of a Citibank.

Within an evening, I was wrongly arrested, locked up, denied a phone call, denied explanation of charges against me, denied ever being read my rights, denied being able to speak to my lawyer for a lengthy time, and denied being told that my car had been impounded…..All because I was mis-indentified as the wrong “tall, bald head, black male,” ... "fitting the description."

[hankscorpioLA]

And I know that. The previous 8 years out of the playoffs and economic downturn probably had more to do with a half-empty stadium than the crowd being "too black." Levensen's theories weren't based on any research, which makes this whole thing even more uncomfortable. He's basically given a lot of benefit of the doubt by a lot of people here and in the media for arguing on behalf of his "business sense," when he's clearly done NO work to back up his proposals.

I agree 100% and this is a big part of the issue.

Had his email simply asked the question and suggested that the organization look into whether the racial makeup of the crowd was an issue, then he might have a leg to stand on.

The fact that he went ahead and started making unsubstantiated claims is why its a problem.

[Kohanz]

Well, the stereotypes in which Levenson dabbled haven't been helped by today's revelation of the Ray Rice elevator video.

The Baltimore Ravens have just terminated Rice's contract.

The stereotypes that Levenson dabbled in revolved around economics (not spending enough at games). As far as I recall, violence did not enter what he said, otherwise it would have been on another level of offensiveness. I think it reveals a bit about you though that you would make this connection...

"My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites"

I don't think he is suggesting that the whites were scared away by the lack of purchasing power of black fans.

Now...it is true that he goes on to reject that claim, but he's still dealing in the stereotype that if there are black people around, white people will feel unsafe.

Sure, but I don't interpret what he says in a "I'm afraid they will beat my wife type of way". It's more of just a "don't want to intermingle/mix". I think "afraid" is a poor choice of words on his part, but I don't sense that he means "afraid for their physical well-being" - that's a bit of a leap.

[hankscorpioLA]

The stereotypes that Levenson dabbled in revolved around economics (not spending enough at games). As far as I recall, violence did not enter what he said, otherwise it would have been on another level of offensiveness. I think it reveals a bit about you though that you would make this connection...

"My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites"

I don't think he is suggesting that the whites were scared away by the lack of purchasing power of black fans.

Now...it is true that he goes on to reject that claim, but he's still dealing in the stereotype that if there are black people around, white people will feel unsafe.

Sure, but I don't interpret what he says in a "I'm afraid they will beat my wife type of way". It's more of just a "don't want to intermingle/mix". I think "afraid" is a poor choice of words on his part, but I don't sense that he means "afraid for their physical well-being" - that's a bit of a leap.

If you read on he talks about how people were always claiming that the area was unsafe and that the arena should be moved and his assessment that this is probably just because there were a lot of black people around.

So I think he IS talking about people feeling unsafe being around so many black people.

[Kohanz]

"My theory is that the black crowd scared away the whites"

I don't think he is suggesting that the whites were scared away by the lack of purchasing power of black fans.

Now...it is true that he goes on to reject that claim, but he's still dealing in the stereotype that if there are black people around, white people will feel unsafe.

Sure, but I don't interpret what he says in a "I'm afraid they will beat my wife type of way". It's more of just a "don't want to intermingle/mix". I think "afraid" is a poor choice of words on his part, but I don't sense that he means "afraid for their physical well-being" - that's a bit of a leap.

If you read on he talks about how people were always claiming that the area was unsafe and that the arena should be moved and his assessment that this is probably just because there were a lot of black people around.

So I think he IS talking about people feeling unsafe being around so many black people.

How is that anything more than an extremely tenuous connection to domestic violence (e.g. Ray Rice)? Or is the a "Ray Rice beat his fiance = black people are violent" thing?!

[hankscorpioLA]

Sure, but I don't interpret what he says in a "I'm afraid they will beat my wife type of way". It's more of just a "don't want to intermingle/mix". I think "afraid" is a poor choice of words on his part, but I don't sense that he means "afraid for their physical well-being" - that's a bit of a leap.

If you read on he talks about how people were always claiming that the area was unsafe and that the arena should be moved and his assessment that this is probably just because there were a lot of black people around.

So I think he IS talking about people feeling unsafe being around so many black people.

How is that anything more than an extremely tenuous connection to domestic violence (e.g. Ray Rice)? Or is the a "Ray Rice beat his fiance = black people are violent" thing?!

Its interesting...the more I think about the email, the more I start to see both sides of the issue.

After all, most of what he is talking about is not reality, but perceptions of reality. That's the biggest difference between Levenson and Sterling. Sterling personally did not want his girlfriend bringing black men to the games. Levenson was not suggesting that he has a problem with black fans, but that white fans have a problem with black fans. The problem is that the way he expressed his views and recommendations and his insistence on including his "theories" most was most definitely inappropriate and offensive.

In a way, I see this email as being a good yardstick by which to judge future incidents of this nature. Levenson crossed the line...but only by a little bit. If he had expressed his ideas more professionally or suggested they consider doing some real research on the subject rather than just firing off theories, he probably would not have been in this position. In fact, had he approached it from the perspective of inclusion rather than exclusion, he might be getting praise right now for being willing to address the issue.

To that point...lets consider what is NOT in the email. Levenson seems very concerned about the fact that white people don't want to be around all these black people, but not at all concerned about potentially alienating the fans that DO show up and DO support their team. For black fans of the Atlanta Hawks, Levenson is basically saying "sorry...but you are just not good enough for us."

[Fairview4Life]

Levenson was willing to cater his business to racists because he thinks he could make more money doing it. **** him.

[LLJ]

Levenson was willing to cater his business to racists because he thinks he could make more money doing it. **** him.

But a lot of people do this. Hollywood executives are still always trying to find ways to not ostracize their core audience (white, lower to middle class) all the time. Ask any established marketing exec and they'll tell you that they're not here to change the world, merely cater to whatever's popular.

The reason why so many businesses are willing to cater to "racists" is that they believe, rightly or wrongly, that race factors unconsciously into many people's actions. When a film with an all-black cast comes out, for example, chances are at least 75% of white mainstream audiences won't go to see it. Most of these people are your friends, family, people who post on this site. Oh, they'll say something like "Oh, Tyler Perry movies always suck" but then at the same time they'll still flock to a bad Adam Sandler movie. That's race unconsciously informing a person's decision. A bad Adam Sandler movie is preferable to a bad Tyler Perry why exactly? The answer is probably right in front of us.

[Fairview4Life]

Levenson was willing to cater his business to racists because he thinks he could make more money doing it. **** him.

But a lot of people do this. Hollywood executives are still always trying to find ways to not ostracize their core audience (white, lower to middle class) all the time. Ask any established marketing exec and they'll tell you that they're not here to change the world, merely cater to whatever's popular.

The reason why so many businesses are willing to cater to "racists" is that they believe, rightly or wrongly, that race factors unconsciously into many people's actions. When a film with an all-black cast comes out, for example, chances are at least 75% of white mainstream audiences won't go to see it. Most of these people are your friends, family, people who post on this site. Oh, they'll say something like "Oh, Tyler Perry movies always suck" but then at the same time they'll still flock to a bad Adam Sandler movie. That's race unconsciously informing a person's decision. A bad Adam Sandler movie is preferable to a bad Tyler Perry why exactly? The answer is probably right in front of us.

So what? **** those people too.

[LLJ]

So what? **** those people too.

Well, I agree with the sentiment, but I'm sure you've also watched and enjoyed a lot of those movies that were "whitewashed" to appeal to a certain racial demographic as well. A lot of these movies have even been critically acclaimed too. I'm not saying it's right, and I get bothered by it a lot, but it's so prevalent that if we were to really take a stand against it, we'd have to ignore 70% of what's out there.

[hankscorpioLA]

Levenson was willing to cater his business to racists because he thinks he could make more money doing it. **** him.

But a lot of people do this. Hollywood executives are still always trying to find ways to not ostracize their core audience (white, lower to middle class) all the time. Ask any established marketing exec and they'll tell you that they're not here to change the world, merely cater to whatever's popular.

The reason why so many businesses are willing to cater to "racists" is that they believe, rightly or wrongly, that race factors unconsciously into many people's actions. When a film with an all-black cast comes out, for example, chances are at least 75% of white mainstream audiences won't go to see it. Most of these people are your friends, family, people who post on this site. Oh, they'll say something like "Oh, Tyler Perry movies always suck" but then at the same time they'll still flock to a bad Adam Sandler movie. That's race unconsciously informing a person's decision. A bad Adam Sandler movie is preferable to a bad Tyler Perry why exactly? The answer is probably right in front of us.

I dunno...yes its race that is informing a consumer decision, but I don't know if it rises to the level of racism. Tyler Perry's movies are targeted at black audiences and feature characters that are more relatable to that audience. When black actors are cast into more mainstream movies, I don't think that trend holds true.

A better example of the issue would be the backlash against the casting of black actors in certain roles in The Hunger Games. Some fans of the book protested saying that they did not see the characters as black when they read the book. That, to me, is clearly a racist sentiment.

On the whole, I don't think white audiences are less willing to see a movie starring Will Smith or Denzel Washington than they are to see one with Tom Cruise or Tom Hanks. That is not to say that Hollywood is not guilty of a lack of diversity in its product. But I think that has a lot more to do with the people making the decisions than the patrons.

[LLJ]

I dunno...yes its race that is informing a consumer decision, but I don't know if it rises to the level of racism. Tyler Perry's movies are targeted at black audiences and feature characters that are more relatable to that audience. When black actors are cast into more mainstream movies, I don't think that trend holds true.

A better example of the issue would be the backlash against the casting of black actors in certain roles in The Hunger Games. Some fans of the book protested saying that they did not see the characters as black when they read the book. That, to me, is clearly a racist sentiment.

On the whole, I don't think white audiences are less willing to see a movie starring Will Smith or Denzel Washington than they are to see one with Tom Cruise or Tom Hanks. That is not to say that Hollywood is not guilty of a lack of diversity in its product. But I think that has a lot more to do with the people making the decisions than the patrons.

That's very true, and I don't think avoiding certain ethnic movies is necessarily racist either, but it's definitely not a very inclusive attitude to have. I said race informs many people's decisions, but I stopped short of saying that's racist. What Levenson was concerned about was how to get white audiences to come watch what is generally considered a product catered more towards "black culture." Relatability, as you said.

People will deny it, but most Will Smith and Denzel Washington are in movies that generally appeal to "white" audiences. Many of their films don't have hip-hop soundtracks or dialogue steeped in some of the culture or slang that the more black-centric movies have. When people see a Tyler Perry movie come out, they think in their back of their minds "It's for black people". They automatically know "this is not for me" as a white viewer. Probably true of other races as well. I'm Asian and I've almost NEVER seen an Asian when I go to watch a Tyler Perry movie (which I will admit I've only done for 3 of his movies, and I sometimes do wonder if my excuse of "His movies usually suck" isn't just an easy cover as well).

Yes, people say Will Smith or Denzel Washington avoids these trappings, but they are usually involved in movies that feature them interacting with what is generally considered a non-racially specific or white-friendly setting.

I think this is what Levenson's thought process was going.