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Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#321 » by Sunsdeuce » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:54 am

JDLAW wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
JDLAW wrote:
I do not know why you and several others seem to be down on Gerald Green. I agree with Eddie johnson and others, Gerald Green has gotten it and fits perfectly within the Suns system. He is just entering his prime and he is one of the two players on this team that can create his own shot and how own offense. I believe he will have another big year and willhave seen Zoran play and can say that he has a long way to go before he replaces what Green can do. Don't forget, he was the 3rd leading scorer on this team at 16ppg and he is one of the most if not the most athletic player on the team.

I have to agree with you. I think everyone is getting excited about zoran because of his last name. He is an unknown at this point. Green is a proven player. Green has to have way more value.


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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#322 » by RunDogGun » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:54 am

Ha, I liked Zoran last offseason, and suggested we pick him up, based solely on what I saw of him in FIBA. We hadn't picked up Green at that point, so I had no idea, we would get him nor what he could do for us. I have yet to suggest we push Zoran ahead of GG, and really haven't seen a real push for it to happen, but I do have a few posters on ignore. :wink:

The way I was looking at it, was we might use either GG, or AG in a trade possibly including Bledsoe, to secure a stronger piece at the five or four.

As for Zoran, I really just like his effort, and think that the double dragon type of effort could easily rub off on the whole team. :D
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#323 » by drewsprocket » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:18 am

Green was a pleasant surprise this past year. But he's another solid sixth man who can torch other team's bench and serve as insurance in case injury. He's not starter quality talent and doesn't figure into long term plans unless he wants to work for on the cheap. We've got him for this next year and then he'll find someone willing to cough up mid level. I'm not sure he gets as much run as last year especially if Bledsoe re-signs.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#324 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:21 am

I seriously doubt Zoran comes to the Suns. He wants to make it on his own, we have depth, he would get more playing time elsewhere. Orlando makes the most sense, not only because of cap space but because they are a young team with two very young guards and Ben Gordon, a vet. He could grow with that team. Also, Goran could give him pointers on maximizing court time with Frye.

I also think Dallas might be a good spot for him because Carlisle is a great coach and seems to get the most out of his players.

Miami could use him because of Wade's injury prone status and they don't really have much for guards outside of him that are that good.

SA he would be buried behind people too, but I'm sure it would be a good system for him. Even though Dragic wasn't here between 2005 and 2007, hopefully he came to despise SA and that rubbed off on Zoran and he steers clear of them.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#325 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:22 am

drewsprocket wrote:Green was a pleasant surprise this past year. But he's another solid sixth man who can torch other team's bench and serve as insurance in case injury. He's not starter quality talent and doesn't figure into long term plans unless he wants to work for on the cheap. We've got him for this next year and then he'll find someone willing to cough up mid level. I'm not sure he gets as much run as last year especially if Bledsoe re-signs.


He's worth the mid level if he plays this well again, and he's better than Zoran. Better to keep him unless somehow we end up with an obvious better option since he loves it here.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#326 » by drewsprocket » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:25 am

I think he's worth it but am not sure we would be spending cap space wisely given all our youth and where we are in terms of playoffs.
IF we fail to make the playoffs or exit the first round, I think it unwise to re-sign him. We need more star talent.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#327 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:44 am

drewsprocket wrote:I think he's worth it but am not sure we would be spending cap space wisely given all our youth and where we are in terms of playoffs.
IF we fail to make the playoffs or exit the first round, I think it unwise to re-sign him. We need more star talent.


Sure if star talent is available and ready to join the Suns. To let him go for a 5% chance at a star is short sighted. More than likely we build through the draft and developing the players we have and maybe at the right free agent at the right time to make it all work.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#328 » by norcalsuns » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:02 am

Haven’t posted on here in a while but wanted to get in on the Bledsoe shenanigans. The team I’m surprised which isn’t being brought up more as a sign and trade destination is New York. They desperately NEED a PG and could use another scoring threat to take some of the load of Carmelo. I think there’s a deal to be made here so let me throw out an idea….

PHX IN: Stoudemire, Hardaway or Shumpert
NY IN: Bledsoe, Goodwin, possibly MIN protected 1st

I know people will roll their eyes at the thought of bringing back Amare but luckily he is a huge $20 million expiring contract. He might not be the explosive player he once was but STAT can still score the basketball at a very efficient rate and could provide solid veteran presence to our thinness at PF/C (if healthy). If he sucks then oh well, he comes off our books and creates a ton of cap space next summer

The main reason to do this deal though is to acquire a young player with upside like Hardaway or Shumpert. Personally I hope its Hardaway because I think he’d fit REALLY well in PHX. He’s already shown to be a solid outside shooter who can score in bunches and has prototypical 6’5 size and frame for SG. Our lineup would look like this:

PG: Dragic/Thomas/Ennis
SG: Green/Hardaway
SF: Tucker/Warren/Marcus Morris
PF: Markief Morris/Stoudemire
C: Plumlee/Len

Darn good rotation if you ask me.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#329 » by Kerrsed » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:14 am

norcalsuns wrote:Haven’t posted on here in a while but wanted to get in on the Bledsoe shenanigans. The team I’m surprised which isn’t being brought up more as a sign and trade destination is New York. They desperately NEED a PG and could use another scoring threat to take some of the load of Carmelo. I think there’s a deal to be made here so let me throw out an idea….

PHX IN: Stoudemire, Hardaway or Shumpert
NY IN: Bledsoe, Goodwin, possibly MIN protected 1st

I know people will roll their eyes at the thought of bringing back Amare but luckily he is a huge $20 million expiring contract. He might not be the explosive player he once was but STAT can still score the basketball at a very efficient rate and could provide solid veteran presence to our thinness at PF/C (if healthy). If he sucks then oh well, he comes off our books and creates a ton of cap space next summer

The main reason to do this deal though is to acquire a young player with upside like Hardaway or Shumpert. Personally I hope its Hardaway because I think he’d fit REALLY well in PHX. He’s already shown to be a solid outside shooter who can score in bunches and has prototypical 6’5 size and frame for SG. Our lineup would look like this:

PG: Dragic/Thomas/Ennis
SG: Green/Hardaway
SF: Tucker/Warren/Marcus Morris
PF: Markief Morris/Stoudemire
C: Plumlee/Len

Darn good rotation if you ask me.


NY is running the triangle offense, so they really dont need a great PG. Look at Phil Jacksons Bulls or Phil Jacksons Lakers. Both squads used what could be considered one of the worst starting PG's in the league at those times. Knicks already filled that role with Calderon. He will be playing that Derek Fisher role in Derek Fishers new Offense (aka Phil Jackson Triangle).
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#330 » by drewsprocket » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:40 am

Kerrsed wrote:
norcalsuns wrote:Haven’t posted on here in a while but wanted to get in on the Bledsoe shenanigans. The team I’m surprised which isn’t being brought up more as a sign and trade destination is New York. They desperately NEED a PG and could use another scoring threat to take some of the load of Carmelo. I think there’s a deal to be made here so let me throw out an idea….

PHX IN: Stoudemire, Hardaway or Shumpert
NY IN: Bledsoe, Goodwin, possibly MIN protected 1st

I know people will roll their eyes at the thought of bringing back Amare but luckily he is a huge $20 million expiring contract. He might not be the explosive player he once was but STAT can still score the basketball at a very efficient rate and could provide solid veteran presence to our thinness at PF/C (if healthy). If he sucks then oh well, he comes off our books and creates a ton of cap space next summer

The main reason to do this deal though is to acquire a young player with upside like Hardaway or Shumpert. Personally I hope its Hardaway because I think he’d fit REALLY well in PHX. He’s already shown to be a solid outside shooter who can score in bunches and has prototypical 6’5 size and frame for SG. Our lineup would look like this:

PG: Dragic/Thomas/Ennis
SG: Green/Hardaway
SF: Tucker/Warren/Marcus Morris
PF: Markief Morris/Stoudemire
C: Plumlee/Len

Darn good rotation if you ask me.


NY is running the triangle offense, so they really dont need a great PG. Look at Phil Jacksons Bulls or Phil Jacksons Lakers. Both squads used what could be considered one of the worst starting PG's in the league at those times. Knicks already filled that role with Calderon. He will be playing that Derek Fisher role in Derek Fishers new Offense (aka Phil Jackson Triangle).


Good point. They'll want length and basketball IQ to run that offense. Given their current roster, the Triangle is a good fit once the players understand it. Shump, JR, Hardaway, Calderon, and Melo will be able to get good looks. Defense and rebounding are why they'll lose.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#331 » by norcalsuns » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:41 am

Kerrsed wrote:
norcalsuns wrote:Haven’t posted on here in a while but wanted to get in on the Bledsoe shenanigans. The team I’m surprised which isn’t being brought up more as a sign and trade destination is New York. They desperately NEED a PG and could use another scoring threat to take some of the load of Carmelo. I think there’s a deal to be made here so let me throw out an idea….

PHX IN: Stoudemire, Hardaway or Shumpert
NY IN: Bledsoe, Goodwin, possibly MIN protected 1st

I know people will roll their eyes at the thought of bringing back Amare but luckily he is a huge $20 million expiring contract. He might not be the explosive player he once was but STAT can still score the basketball at a very efficient rate and could provide solid veteran presence to our thinness at PF/C (if healthy). If he sucks then oh well, he comes off our books and creates a ton of cap space next summer

The main reason to do this deal though is to acquire a young player with upside like Hardaway or Shumpert. Personally I hope its Hardaway because I think he’d fit REALLY well in PHX. He’s already shown to be a solid outside shooter who can score in bunches and has prototypical 6’5 size and frame for SG. Our lineup would look like this:

PG: Dragic/Thomas/Ennis
SG: Green/Hardaway
SF: Tucker/Warren/Marcus Morris
PF: Markief Morris/Stoudemire
C: Plumlee/Len

Darn good rotation if you ask me.


NY is running the triangle offense, so they really dont need a great PG. Look at Phil Jacksons Bulls or Phil Jacksons Lakers. Both squads used what could be considered one of the worst starting PG's in the league at those times. Knicks already filled that role with Calderon. He will be playing that Derek Fisher role in Derek Fishers new Offense (aka Phil Jackson Triangle).


You are right that Phil Jacksons past teams won championships in the triangle offense with below average PG's. I also would agree that Calderon can fill the void of the triangle quite well as a good passer and spot shooter. I don't believe Calderon is a long term answer though at PG. I also don't think you will see a strict triangle offense like you saw with Kobe and Jordan led teams. The Knicks currently don't have the big man personnel to make a strict triangle offense work with Carmelo. From a pure basketball standpoint, I think it would be crazy to think Bledsoe and Carmelo can't mesh in the same offense, triangle or not. A lineup of Bledsoe/Shumpert/Early/Melo/Dalembert is super talented, and IMO would be foolish to deny because you're running a triangle offense.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#332 » by lazyboy62 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:42 am

I'd bet money that NY would do a trade like that. I think I'd want a first to two seconds for that tho. I'm greedy. I like the concept tho. Take the money from Amare and work toward next year. Who would you want from next season's free agent class in this deal? MKG? Not sure about anyone else.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#333 » by Kerrsed » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:59 am

lazyboy62 wrote:I'd bet money that NY would do a trade like that. I think I'd want a first to two seconds for that tho. I'm greedy. I like the concept tho. Take the money from Amare and work toward next year. Who would you want from next season's free agent class in this deal? MKG? Not sure about anyone else.


Oh without a doubt they would do it, its ripping us off!

Amare is done. DONE. There is a reason we didnt want to keep him (specially on a max deal). We didnt think he would last, and he hasnt, so why take him back when what we were afraid would happen has? At this point Markeiff is better than Amare. I would even go so far as to say that Tolliver, yes the guy that is known for being viciously posterized by a young Amare, is currently better than Amare. Cool, a $20M expiring. We are already under the cap and should be next year as well once this Bledsoe situation plays out. Too bad there are no real superstar players in FA that we could go after using the capspace Amare expiring would provide. This upcoming FA is trash.

Shumpert? You mean the guy that NY has been looking to dump? Another injury riddled player that has close to zero offense. I would have loved to have him a few years ago, but his game never came back once he himself came back from injury. Pass.

Hardaway is just meh..... in my book. I dont think he is that much better than what Goodwin is, provided Goodwin got the amount of minutes that Hardaway did. PER36, Goddwin outshines Hardaway in FG%, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Hardaway has a 2 point edge on him along with being a better FT and 3 point shooter. Also factor in that Hardaway is a full 2 years older than Archie. Yeah...... i'd totally pass on that as well.

On top of all that WE are the ones providing a draft pick? What for exactly? NY is getting the 2 best players in the trade. Is it because we feel sorry for them for letting them have Dantoni and the horrific years that followed?

So yes, NY does that trade. They stick a fat one in our buttox and the only lube they use are our own tears.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#334 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:23 am

norcalsuns wrote:PHX IN: Stoudemire, Hardaway or Shumpert
NY IN: Bledsoe, Goodwin, possibly MIN protected 1st

Stoudemire, at best, has neutral value. His giant expiring deal does nothing for us since we have cap space. So he's essentially a filler.

So it's essentially, Bledsoe, Goodwin + Min 1st for Hardway or Shump.

Even if Bledsoe doesn't fit the bill in their new offense, whenever they get a chance to dump Stoudemire for ANY assets it's a win for them.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#335 » by drewsprocket » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:01 am

The question on my mind is how will it play out if Bledsoe does continue to delude himself into max money and opts for the QO. Does he get traded by midseason? Does he end up starting anyway and playing the whole year --guaranteed that he'll leave anyway.

Really, I just want to be a playoff team again.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#336 » by norcalsuns » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:07 am

Kerrsed wrote:
lazyboy62 wrote:I'd bet money that NY would do a trade like that. I think I'd want a first to two seconds for that tho. I'm greedy. I like the concept tho. Take the money from Amare and work toward next year. Who would you want from next season's free agent class in this deal? MKG? Not sure about anyone else.


Oh without a doubt they would do it, its ripping us off!

Amare is done. DONE. There is a reason we didnt want to keep him (specially on a max deal). We didnt think he would last, and he hasnt, so why take him back when what we were afraid would happen has? At this point Markeiff is better than Amare. I would even go so far as to say that Tolliver, yes the guy that is known for being viciously posterized by a young Amare, is currently better than Amare. Cool, a $20M expiring. We are already under the cap and should be next year as well once this Bledsoe situation plays out. Too bad there are no real superstar players in FA that we could go after using the capspace Amare expiring would provide. This upcoming FA is trash.

Shumpert? You mean the guy that NY has been looking to dump? Another injury riddled player that has close to zero offense. I would have loved to have him a few years ago, but his game never came back once he himself came back from injury. Pass.

Hardaway is just meh..... in my book. I dont think he is that much better than what Goodwin is, provided Goodwin got the amount of minutes that Hardaway did. PER36, Goddwin outshines Hardaway in FG%, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Hardaway has a 2 point edge on him along with being a better FT and 3 point shooter. Also factor in that Hardaway is a full 2 years older than Archie. Yeah...... i'd totally pass on that as well.

On top of all that WE are the ones providing a draft pick? What for exactly? NY is getting the 2 best players in the trade. Is it because we feel sorry for them for letting them have Dantoni and the horrific years that followed?

So yes, NY does that trade. They stick a fat one in our buttox and the only lube they use are our own tears.


I’d like to know what makes Amare Stoudemire done? Is he averaging 20+ points per game and worth that ridiculous 5 year $100 million contract? No, absolutely not BUT to make an asinine claim that Anthony Tolliver is better than Amare Stoudemire is mind numbingly ignorant. In the last 2 months of the season when Mike Woodson finally started increasing his workload off of injury the guy averaged 15.9 PPG on 58.4% FG with 28 mpg in the last 21 games of the season. Now tell me how that is being “done” as a basketball player? I can’t see how having him even in a limited role hurts the basketball team. As I’ll repeat even if his knees completely give out (which I would doubt with our training staff) he’s off the books. So I have to ask you Kerrsed what would be the risk in acquiring him? It’s not like we’re a bottom 5 team in the league and acquiring him makes us worsen our draft pick. If your going to claim that we could lose our late lottery pick if he lives up to potential and Suns make the playoffs, what’s the negative in that? I’d rather make the playoffs.

And comparing Hardaway to Goodwin, their games are different but you have to think about what fits best on the team. I know he’s still only 20 but Archie has not demonstrated an ability to make an outside jump shot. It’s really hard to be successful in today’s NBA as a SG if you can’t shoot. If you think about the future of this team, you can’t trot out a lineup with say Dragic/Goodwin/ Warren at the 1/2/3 and expect it to be efficient. There’s not enough spacing, defenses will not respect Goodwin or Warrens ability to make a 3. Hardaway Jr. on the other hand has demonstrated an ability to consistently make an outside shot. Not to mention coming off an impressive summer league where he averaged 22.7 ppg on 44% FG. He has the potential to be a solid SG in this league. Until Archie can improve his outside shot, I can’t see him succeeding as an off ball player in the NBA.
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Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues 

Post#337 » by Nando88 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:21 am

I see no reason as to why we would be sending a 1st rounder in addition to bledsoe and archie to ny when we are taking back, for the lack of a better term, crap


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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#338 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:50 am

norcalsuns wrote:I’d like to know what makes Amare Stoudemire done? Is he averaging 20+ points per game and worth that ridiculous 5 year $100 million contract? No, absolutely not BUT to make an asinine claim that Anthony Tolliver is better than Amare Stoudemire is mind numbingly ignorant. In the last 2 months of the season when Mike Woodson finally started increasing his workload off of injury the guy averaged 15.9 PPG on 58.4% FG with 28 mpg in the last 21 games of the season. Now tell me how that is being “done” as a basketball player? I can’t see how having him even in a limited role hurts the basketball team. As I’ll repeat even if his knees completely give out (which I would doubt with our training staff) he’s off the books. So I have to ask you Kerrsed what would be the risk in acquiring him? It’s not like we’re a bottom 5 team in the league and acquiring him makes us worsen our draft pick. If your going to claim that we could lose our late lottery pick if he lives up to potential and Suns make the playoffs, what’s the negative in that? I’d rather make the playoffs.

hmm Amare is dead last in Real Plus-Minus stats amongst PF's (87 of 87), meaning he is among the least effective PF's on offense AND defense. Tolliver is 25th out of 87.

And comparing Hardaway to Goodwin, their games are different but you have to think about what fits best on the team. I know he’s still only 20 but Archie has not demonstrated an ability to make an outside jump shot. It’s really hard to be successful in today’s NBA as a SG if you can’t shoot. If you think about the future of this team, you can’t trot out a lineup with say Dragic/Goodwin/ Warren at the 1/2/3 and expect it to be efficient. There’s not enough spacing, defenses will not respect Goodwin or Warrens ability to make a 3. Hardaway Jr. on the other hand has demonstrated an ability to consistently make an outside shot. Not to mention coming off an impressive summer league where he averaged 22.7 ppg on 44% FG. He has the potential to be a solid SG in this league. Until Archie can improve his outside shot, I can’t see him succeeding as an off ball player in the NBA.

At this stage Hardaway>Goodwin but it isn't like trading a scrub for a starter and if Hardaway is the main piece we take away from this trade than I'd rather keep Goodwin and the 1st.
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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#339 » by norcalsuns » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:58 am

Nando88 wrote:I see no reason as to why we would be sending a 1st rounder in addition to bledsoe and archie to ny when we are taking back, for the lack of a better term, crap


First off, I said "possibly" the MIN protected first rounder. But even if they did trade it, how valuable is that pick? It's only effective if Minnesota makes the playoffs anytime soon otherwise it rolls into a second rounder, so it's not like any team is getting a star player out of it.

The big picture that I think some are missing in this whole Bledsoe situation is we are in great danger of losing him for NOTHING if he accepts this qualifying offer. No team is going to want to give anything valuable and trade for him at that point if they know he is available next summer in the open market. In that case it is imperative to move Bledsoe NOW to a team that would give him the contract he wants. I think the Knicks would do it if they could offload the Amare expiring and would be willing to give us an asset like Hardaway or Shumpert with it. You may classify it as "crap" but it's better than nothing, and I wouldn't classify a player who averaged nearly 11 ppg his rookie season and 22.7 ppg in the summer league as "crap". I also wouldn't classify a player who averaged 15.9 ppg on 58.4% FG in 28 mpg in his last 21 games (Amare Stoudemire) as "crap" if he can be reasonably healthy even for one season.

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Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continu 

Post#340 » by Ryu » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:18 am

I am not sure I would give Goodwin and a first rounder for Hardaway. In fact, I like Archie more as a prospect in a long run. So this deal is Bledsoe for Amare`s 23 mil next season.

In other words - terrible deal for the Suns.

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