Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

[King4Day]

Anyone know what kind of defender Zoran is? Good, bad, average?

[Fo-Real]

No one is being given up on, I think its about competing for and winning a job for some of these dudes.

[bwgood77]

Drew (Orlando)

What sort of player do you expect Zoran Dragic to be in the NBA? A replacement level guard? Do you have enough numbers on him to project his level of play?
Kevin Pelton (1:56 PM)

With two seasons in the ACB and three in the Euroleague, ample past numbers. He rates about NBA replacement level overall, and SCHOENE offers up some odd comps: Lucious Harris, Jeff Grayer, Todd Lichti and Mitchell Butler. Big thing that works against the other Dragic is he has not been a great outside shooter in the ACB.

Jason (St. Louis, MO)

Are there are any NBA players whose future you are higher or lower on than you were previously based on their World Cup performance?
Kevin Pelton (2:40 PM)

Not a current NBA player, but the guy who might have surprised me the most is Joffrey Lauvergne, who's started at center for France. Both Bogdan and Bojan Bogdanovic have been more impressive than their translated club stats would suggest.

[phrazbit]

Not crazy about this one. He barely cracks 30% from the euro 3... with euro defenders on him.

[TASTIC]

Zoran is a sg who can play some sf.... If he comes in and beats out Archie... so be it. I can see a rotation of Goran, Green starting with Thomas, zoran off the bench. We can see who developers out of Archie and Zoran, I think Zoran is slightly ahead overall right now. The Suns wanted to develope Archie as a pg anyway.... right?

Not that I know but something tells me that Archie will be gone (whether trade or free agency) before we all see his maturation. I think Archie is going to be very good but I also think he is about 3 years away from that.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Agreed. Goodwin is arguably the hardest worker on the Suns. I expect for him to explode when he leaves PHX and actually gets playing time.

Even his stats last year when he actually got 25 mins+ of playing time.

Had to check that on bball reference. Only two games, but he was solid.

Also this is kinda cool and extremely angled towards Archie. He is the youngest player in the HISTORY OF THE NBA to score 29 points on 80%FG and 80%FT. True story. 19 years old.

Archie is a Goodin'

[WTFsunsFTW]

Brooklyn Out
Mason Plumlee, Bojan Bogdanovic, Brook Lopez
Brooklyn In
ReSigned Bledsoe, Alex Len, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st

Portland Out
Robin Lopez
Portland In
Gerald Green/Archie Goodwin/Shavlik Randolph

Suns Out
Goodwin, Len, Bledsoe, Green, Randolph, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st
Suns In
Mason Plumlee, Robin Lopez, Brook Lopez, Bojan Bogdanovic

#DragicDragicBogdanBogdanMorrisMorrisPlumleePlumleeLopezLopez
Goran Dragic/Isaiah Thomas/Tyler Ennis
Zoran Dragic/Bogdan Bogdanovic
PJ Tucker/Marcus Morris/Bojan Bogdanovic/TJ Warren
Brook Lopez /Markieff Morris/Mason Plumlee/Anthony Tolliver
Robin Lopez/Miles Plumlee

[Miklo]

Brooklyn Out
Mason Plumlee, Bojan Bogdanovic, Brook Lopez
Brooklyn In
ReSigned Bledsoe, Alex Len, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st

Portland Out
Robin Lopez
Portland In
Gerald Green/Archie Goodwin/Shavlik Randolph

Suns Out
Goodwin, Len, Bledsoe, Green, Randolph, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st
Suns In
Mason Plumlee, Robin Lopez, Brook Lopez, Bojan Bogdanovic

#DragicDragicBogdanBogdanMorrisMorrisPlumleePlumleeLopezLopez
Goran Dragic/Isaiah Thomas/Tyler Ennis
Zoran Dragic/Bogdan Bogdanovic
PJ Tucker/Marcus Morris/Bojan Bogdanovic/TJ Warren
Brook Lopez /Markieff Morris/Mason Plumlee/Anthony Tolliver
Robin Lopez/Miles Plumlee

This is probably more representative of Suns FO's actual strategy than any trade idea I've ever seen proposed on RealGM.

[Sunsdeuce]

Brooklyn Out
Mason Plumlee, Bojan Bogdanovic, Brook Lopez
Brooklyn In
ReSigned Bledsoe, Alex Len, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st

Portland Out
Robin Lopez
Portland In
Gerald Green/Archie Goodwin/Shavlik Randolph

Suns Out
Goodwin, Len, Bledsoe, Green, Randolph, Lakers 2015 1st, Suns 2015 1st, Wolves 2015 1st
Suns In
Mason Plumlee, Robin Lopez, Brook Lopez, Bojan Bogdanovic

#DragicDragicBogdanBogdanMorrisMorrisPlumleePlumleeLopezLopez
Goran Dragic/Isaiah Thomas/Tyler Ennis
Zoran Dragic/Bogdan Bogdanovic
PJ Tucker/Marcus Morris/Bojan Bogdanovic/TJ Warren
Brook Lopez /Markieff Morris/Mason Plumlee/Anthony Tolliver
Robin Lopez/Miles Plumlee

That would never happen but that trade would be awesome.


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[Scutt]

And of course the suns are concerned about making the playoffs, but they have done nothing to indicate that they would sacrifice developing their youth to get there. Sure they signed Thomas, but that's about it. He's an insurance policy for Bledsoe (which appears to have been a great "just in case" signing). IF the suns were truly all or nothing to the playoffs, then they would have maxed out Bledsoe the first day of FA.

McD is in it for the longhaul. We are among the youngest teams in the west, just waiting for the powerhouses to age and drop off.

I disagree, I think signing a half broke Leandro Barbosa last season showed just that. Had the Suns not been so concerned with being an 8th seed, those minutes could have gone to Goodwin, who played well when given the minutes.

[jcsunsfan]

Goodwin played well in trash time, or in games that were meaningless at the end of the year. Zoran hasn't proven anything either. Whichever of the two learns to shoot first will get the minutes.

Archie will never be an nba starter without a reliable jumper. Also, indications are that while Archie is a gym rat and a hard worker, he is not very coachable--not sure if this is because he is a knucklehead or just not very bright.

[phrazbit]

Goodwin did not play well when given minutes. He would have had more 25 minute games had he not played so poorly so frequently. Its the same dopey reason people would look at Beasley's stats and say "when he got over 32 minutes he was great! We just need to give him more minutes!".

The correlation is being reversed in a way that defies any semblance of logic. More minutes does not cause better play... rather, better play leads to more minutes.

Goodwin had his best games in games where he played big minutes because he happened to be playing well in those games. Had he been playing at the rate he was in the vast majority of his games he would have seen less minutes. I have hope for Archie, athletically he has it all, and he has a will to drive to the hoop that most guys lack. But he is a poor shooter and has terrible decision making. He is still very young so there is every reason to hope for improvement, but that improvement is not a given. There is an endless list of dudes who had great athletic talent but did nothing in the NBA because they could not grasp the game mentally.

Now, don't go and accuse me of being an Archie hater based on this... I love the pick, I hope to see huge improvement this year, but the idea that he is a potential stud is still a looooooong way from being realized, and he was a flat out bad player last year, which is to be expected from a kid his age, but it does not change the fact that he was lousy.

[jcsunsfan]

Goodwin did not play well when given minutes. He would have had more 25 minute games had he not played so poorly so frequently. Its the same dopey reason people would look at Beasley's stats and say "when he got over 32 minutes he was great! We just need to give him more minutes!".

The correlation is being reversed in a way that defies any semblance of logic. More minutes does not cause better play... rather, better play leads to more minutes.

Goodwin had his best games in games where he played big minutes because he happened to be playing well in those games. Had he been playing at the rate he was in the vast majority of his games he would have seen less minutes. I have hope for Archie, athletically he has it all, and he has a will to drive to the hoop that most guys lack. But he is a poor shooter and has terrible decision making. He is still very young so there is every reason to hope for improvement, but that improvement is not a given. There is an endless list of dudes who had great athletic talent but did nothing in the NBA because they could not grasp the game mentally.

Now, don't go and accuse me of being an Archie hater based on this... I love the pick, I hope to see huge improvement this year, but the idea that he is a potential stud is still a looooooong way from being realized, and he was a flat out bad player last year, which is to be expected from a kid his age, but it does not change the fact that he was lousy.

I agree with this. In fact, Archie looks alot like Gerald Green did early in his career. It took a long time for him to mature mentally enough to make a real impact, and it did not really happen until last year.

[lazyboy62]

Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican St

Just saw how this was laid out and it cracked me up. Being Mexican/Indian I'm not sure how to take it but it made me laugh my a** off.

[bwgood77]

Re: Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican St

Just saw how this was laid out and it cracked me up. Being Mexican/Indian I'm not sure how to take it but it made me laugh my a** off.

Did you watch Silicon Valley? If not, there was a pretty funny episode regarding Indians and Mexicans and whether confusing one with the other is racist.

[LukasBMW]

Archie was streaky. There were times last year when he played well in his limited minutes and times when he looked terrible.

He did light up Sacramento, but it was pure garbage time. It may as well have been a D league game at that point.

I think if we threw Archie into the fire, he would perform similar to Waiters. Archie's outside shot isn't there yet, but with time I think Archie would be on the same level as Waiters. Both could be the next Dwayne Wade. Both could be the next Shannon Brown.

Either way, I'd like to give Goodwin minutes so we can find out.

But he must earn those minutes by beating out Zoran in practice.

[thamadkant]

McD has stated multiple times he is not going to compromise the long term Suns plan for a short playoff stint.

Whomever he has drafted... he has plans for.

[JDLAW]

Courtesy of the Houston Rockets Fans at Clutchcity

MarioKissoDeath
Member
MarioKissoDeath is Terrence Jones -- on a good road but it's early
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 89

We cannot waste another year of Howard and Harden. Trade whatever combo of future picks, exceptions, Beverley, Terry, Jones, Montejunas, Johnson and our trash for any of these guys:

PGs:
Target 1: Dragic (not likely, but would be awesome)
Target 2: Rondo
Target 3: Bledsoe

PFs:
Target 1: Millsap (not likely, but would be awesome)
Target 2: Ryan Anderson Pelicans
Target 3: Illyasova


finsraider
Member
finsraider is Chandler Parsons -- lookin' mighty finefinsraider is Chandler Parsons -- lookin' mighty finefinsraider is Chandler Parsons -- lookin' mighty fine
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,281

HOU IN: Bledsoe (SnT), Okafor (SnT into our TPE)
HOU Out: Nick Johnson, Clint Capela, TJones, Powell, Covington, Gee, Hopson

PHX In: Johnson, Capela, TJones, 2 SAC 2nds, Powell, Covington
PHX Out: Bledsoe

SAC Out: Terry, 2 2nds
SAC In: Gee, Hopson

The HOU/SAC trade is already agreed to.

At this point, I don't think PHX can demand much more than what I've listed here. Johnson is kind of a Bledsoe light....great athleticism and defensive potential. Capela is a front court project with big time upside. TJones is a proven quality player.

[SunsFanSSOL]

Hate this move. We're sacrificing the playing time of 2 players who are actually part of our future (Warren and Goodwin) just to make Goran happy. Sad to see the Suns are still committed to gimmicks.

[jcsunsfan]

How about Bledsoe for Harden and call it a day? They don't seem to be happy with him anyway.

[JDLAW]

Goodwin played well in trash time, or in games that were meaningless at the end of the year. Zoran hasn't proven anything either. Whichever of the two learns to shoot first will get the minutes.

Archie will never be an nba starter without a reliable jumper. Also, indications are that while Archie is a gym rat and a hard worker, he is not very coachable--not sure if this is because he is a knucklehead or just not very bright.

JC - Never heard anything to indicate Goodwin is not coachable, what I have heard is just the opposite. Whether he is able to translate coaching into execution remains to be seen. I do not think he lacks intelligence or sense - nothing I have heard suggests this either. Right now he is one of the youngest players in the league and some of his skills need work. Some are disappointed in Goodwin's summer league play, what I saw was better shot mechanics. That needs to translate to better FG%.

To all those worried about playing time at the guard position between Goodwin and Z Dragic. It is needless to worry about this as it is unlikely either will get much playing time. Barring injury, e.g Dragic [ankle], Bledsoe [knee], or selfish play/petulance (Bledsoe), I would count on about 95% of the minutes at guard to go to G. Dragic, Bledsoe, Thomas and Green.