RealGM Top 100 List #30

[penbeast0]

CENTERS
Artis Gilmore or Dwight Howard are the next greatest 2 way centers but Artis seemed to lose his competitive fire when he came to the NBA and Dwight has not been the same dominant player since Orlando. Alonzo Mourning and Mel Daniels are the other 2 candidates that came to mind, very similar players in many ways; plus probably Dikembe Mutombo is a candidate as the most impactful defender left (and not a complete disaster offensively). The numbers clearly say Artis, but I'm just not as high on him as I used to be.

FORWARDS
Baylor, McHale, Havlicek, Rodman, and new star Kevin Durant. Interested to see who starts getting support. Baylor seemed to have efficiency issues even for his day, McHale is super efficient but worked against single teams in the post more than any great post scorer in history and was a mediocre defensive rebounder (though the presence of Larry Bird that gave him so many single teams also stole some rebounds from him). Havlicek seems to have nerves (and lungs) of steel but was even more inefficient through the mid 70s than Baylor. Rodman is the GOAT rebounder, but also a disruptive force and barely above the Ben Wallace level offensively. Kevin Durant may have the highest peak but is 5 years with no rings enough? What about someone like Alex English who was very good for over a decade in many different lineups and taking on many different roles?

GUARDS
I am looking hard at Clyde Drexler and Chris Paul who, like Artis, has spectacular numbers but I'm just not sure that his numbers don't overstate his impact. I am open to Payton, Kidd, or Isiah but all three have efficiency issues v. Paul and Paul is the best of the bunch as a playmaker and not a bad defender. Longevity is the biggest issue for Paul like it is for Durant. I'd love to say I'm looking at Sidney Moncrief here too but he is a bit below the Chris Paul level for either peak or longevity.

Things I need to see . . .

Some great posts on Artis have left me a bit less skeptical of his NBA years, he was far less active and played closer to the basket on both ends which accounts for (a) his lesser defensive impact, (b) the rep of not having good hands which was not a problem in the ABA, and (c) the great increase in efficiency AFTER the move to the NBA.

Haven't seen any analysis on other top centers like Zo or Deke yet. How do they compare to Artis (and Dwight)?

Dwight Howard v. Kevin Durant v. Chris Paul . . . who has the greatest CAREER value of the active guys?

For Baylor fans, I'd like to see a convincing case made for him against Kevin McHale and Alex English as well as John Havlicek (who I'm not as big a fan of as some).

Warspite, if you advocate Cousy, can you show him making his team appreciably better in any realistic way? It seems they replaced him without missing a beat and his playoff numbers are awful during the championship years; Ramsey was picking up the slack that Cousy dropped it seems. Thus the case for Cousy should probably be like the case for Nash or Kidd, based on his unique playmaking skills making his teammates better.

[Texas Chuck]

Still Hondo, Kidd, and Deke for me. I haven't done much talking about Deke yet so if I get a chance I may start talking about why I prefer him to Howard, Zo, Cowens of the remaining centers.

I think I may be underrating Baylor a bit so I need to review him more as well.

[drza]

Kidd and Zeke top my list. I'm high on him too, though I'm not sure I had him on my vote list yet...but I'd love to hear what you have to say, Chuck, as outside of perception I can't really say WHY I wasn't looking at him that hard yet. Still open to Baylor. Hopefully we'll get some good talk in this thread...

[RebelWithACause]

Kidd and Zeke top my list. I'm high on him too, though I'm not sure I had him on my vote list yet...but I'd love to hear what you have to say, Chuck, as outside of perception I can't really say WHY I wasn't looking at him that hard yet. Still open to Baylor. Hopefully we'll get some good talk in this thread...

I would be very curious about your stance on Rasheed Wallace, since you like impact stats a lot as well.

Why is he not an option right now and will he be one for you?

[Basketballefan]

Kidd and Zeke top my list. I'm high on him too, though I'm not sure I had him on my vote list yet...but I'd love to hear what you have to say, Chuck, as outside of perception I can't really say WHY I wasn't looking at him that hard yet. Still open to Baylor. Hopefully we'll get some good talk in this thread...

I would be very curious about your stance on Rasheed Wallace, since you like impact stats a lot as well.

Why is he not an option right now and will he be one for you?

I'm not trying to speak for him, but Rasheed will probably not even make the hall of fame. He should not be sniffing any top 50 list.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Led the Pistons to back to back titles in an era that was tough as nails. Had to deal with peak Bird and Magic in the process. Also won finals mvp, lost only 1 series in his career with HCA. Took a franchise from the bottom to the top as well in the process.

[Basketballefan]

VOTE: HAVLICEK

I've been waiting for Hondo to start getting serious traction and it still hasn't happened. But i think he should easily be this high on the list, he contributed to 8 championships and played at a high level for a long time. He had a peak of 29 9 8 with elite defense. For me other canidates for this spot would be Baylor and Clyde Drexler, but i think Hondo's all around game and defensive impact give him the edge over those 2.

[Colbinii]

Still Hondo, Kidd, and Deke for me.

I feel like at this point, these three players plus Elgin Baylor are my next four, but I would love to see reason's why I should take a Chris Paul or Dwight Howard over them.

[colts18]

How does Havlicek compare to Pierce, Drexler, and Carter? I'm not sure that Havlicek is better than Pierce. I would love to see Celtics compare the 2.

[RSCD3_]

I think pierce should be gaining some steam. He has better longevity and peak than Havlicek in my opinion


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[drza]

Kidd and Zeke top my list. I'm high on him too, though I'm not sure I had him on my vote list yet...but I'd love to hear what you have to say, Chuck, as outside of perception I can't really say WHY I wasn't looking at him that hard yet. Still open to Baylor. Hopefully we'll get some good talk in this thread...

I would be very curious about your stance on Rasheed Wallace, since you like impact stats a lot as well.

Why is he not an option right now and will he be one for you?

That's a very intriguing question, and one I'm kind of curious about myself. Sheed is (for those that haven't looked/don't care) one of the players that shows up most impressively in the 1998 - 2012 normalized RAPM database of Doc MJ's. The narrative on Sheed for so long was that he was a talented headcase that should have been so much better than he turned out to be. Only, the RAPM data seems to suggest that he actually WAS having an impact on games that was worthy of that talent. Sheed shows up right alongside Ben Wallace as one of the super elite defenders of his era, which combines with a positive offensive impact for a very strong, very positive influence on his teams' scoring margins through the years.

You know how the common truism is that a true championship contender should have a true front-end superstar on it? But Sheed just happened to keep ending up on very legit champsionship contenders that were ensemble casts? Well, if one interprets the RAPM data as truly being indicative of Sheed's impact, then in fact the 2004 Pistons and 2000 Blazers DID have a front-end superstar on them.

But the other side has to be considered as well, obviously. Sheed WAS an explosive headcase that seemingly hurt his team with his technicals and (to put it mildly) wasn't a leader.

So I don't know. I'm much more open to being drawn into a good Sheed case, or even making one myself at some point. But I can't say that I know when it will be. Yet.

[Doctor MJ]

I think pierce should be gaining some steam. He has better longevity and peak than Havlicek in my opinion


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Great point. This was one of the things we talked about a good amount in the last list that had slipped my mind. I'm not super super high on Pierce, but when you look at his career next to Hondo's, it's not crystal clear who should be ranked higher. Hence if you've got them in entirely separate tiers, it best be something you've thought seriously over.

[Basketballefan]

I think pierce should be gaining some steam. He has better longevity and peak than Havlicek in my opinion


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Longevity, no. Explain why his peak is better.

[Basketballefan]

How does Havlicek compare to Pierce, Drexler, and Carter? I'm not sure that Havlicek is better than Pierce. I would love to see Celtics compare the 2.

Hondo is a more complete player than all of them. And if nothing else his defense should give him the edge. We don't consider Pierce better than Pippen so why should he be better than Hondo?

As for Vince Carter he maybe only scores better than Hondo, Hondo is better at everything else. Plus, Vince's longevity as a star isn't long at all.

[Texas Chuck]

I think pierce should be gaining some steam. He has better longevity and peak than Havlicek in my opinion


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I think they are an interesting comparison. I would have given the edge to Hondo in both categories just off the top of my head without really comparing them. I am a pretty big fan of The Truth's game tho. So I think I will try and take some time today to compare the 2, but I sure hope some of you smarter guys post some on this as well.

I guess for me I tend to think of Paul Pierce as long one of the 15-20 best players in the league, but never more than a borderline top 10 player and thus just not tend to think of him as being a top 30 all-time guy. But I am high on guys who are really good for a long time and he was certainly that.

So a guy who was off my radar who maybe shouldn't have been?

[lukekarts]

I think it would be inappropriate for Pierce to gain any traction at this point. Whilst I like his game a lot, as Chuck said, he's barely been more than a top 10 player during his peak, and whilst he has a lot of years in him, would it really be fair to vote him in now?

I mean, there's clearly some guys who have better peaks, but also guys who are somewhat his equal in the longevity stakes too.

You have the peaks of guys like Durant, Paul, McHale, Gilmore to consider.

You have peaks - some more successful than others - from guys like Thomas and Kidd to consider; and these are players with long careers.

Plus, there's a lot of very good defensive players such as Rodman, Payton, Mutombo that may be more deserving.

To me, Pierce may compete with some of this bunch, but he's also in there with the Alex English's and George Gervin's of this world.

[RSCD3_]

I think pierce should be gaining some steam. He has better longevity and peak than Havlicek in my opinion


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Great point. This was one of the things we talked about a good amount in the last list that had slipped my mind. I'm not super super high on Pierce, but when you look at his career next to Hondo's, it's not crystal clear who should be ranked higher. Hence if you've got them in entirely separate tiers, it best be something you've thought seriously over.

Maybe I'm exaggerating his longevity because of the volume of years he's been in the league. I'll have to go back and look at him more closely.

Regarding his peak id say he is a lot better of a scorer and his defensive impact is good enough that Havlicek's edge their doesn't put him over the top.

Also I never meant they were in different tiers rather that pierce was just ahead of him At a first glance.

I also as a poster put more value in peak/prime than longevity and tend to think people underrate a prime pierces defense

The guy beat you to the spot you wanted to go and with his 7'3 wingspan he could defend against wings that tried to go last him or shoot over him


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[Texas Chuck]

My quick take on longevity only between Hondo and Truth

Total Minutes:

Hondo -- 46k
Truth -- 42k

PS minutes:

Hondo -- 6800
Truth -- 5800

Obviously this next part is subjective, but I have each guy with 14-15 really high quality seasons. I discounted Truth in 06-07 because he missed nearly half the season and last season in Brooklyn. Hondo I discounted his rookie year. But they were still quite useful players even in those seasons I'm not labeling quality. Obviously note I am not labeling seasons based on peak or prime because I think from a longevity standpoint its more important to give guys credit for being high-level NBA players rather than judging them against themselves at their best.*

Hondo played an average of 79.5 games per year
Truth played an average of 76.5 games per year (adjusted for 2 labor-shortened seasons)

Hondo 36.6 mpg RS
Truth 36.1 mpg RS

Hondo 39.9 mpg PS
Truth 39.0 mpg PS


IMO Hondo does get a small edge for longevity but considering how strong Truth is in this category as well, I feel confident in stating it to be of no real significance for me personally in determining which to rank higher unless I couldn't find a way to separate them based on their play and I would give the edge then to Hondo based on getting more quality minutes out of him.


*If I was labeling primes I would have Truth 01-11 and Hondo 64-75

[lukekarts]

There's a significant difference in Pierce and Hondo in terms of success and recognition, though (particularly relevant when taken in context)

- 13 All Star appearances.
- Finals MVP
- 4 x All NBA 1st
- 7 x All NBA 2nd
- 5 x All Defensive 1st team
- 3 x All Defensive 2nd team
- 8 championship rings (and you can argue both 1969 and 1974 he was the best player on those winning teams)
- 8 years of 20/5/5 (from 66-74 he averaged 26-8-6 with above average efficiency)
- Peak of 29/9/7.5

Havlicek is, admittedly, a tough one to rank. He spanned two Celtics eras, the dominant Bill Russell era, before being part of the early Dave Cowens/Jo Jo White team that enjoyed success in the 70s.

He was rightly the Finals MVP in 1974, when the Celtics beat the Bucks (Kareem, Dandridge, old Oscar). Havlicek was 3rd in PPG that post-season, 4th in assists, 2nd in offensive win shares (behind Kareem), 3rd in defensive win shares (behind Kareem and Cowens).

He finished top 10 in MVP voting 5 times, peaking at 4th in 1972, generally only finishing behind players already featuring on this list. Much like Pippen in this list before him, due to his role on teams he was never likely to be an MVP winner - he was very much the all-rounder. As Bill Russell said in'74, he was the 'best all-round player'.

[Quotatious]

*If I was labeling primes I would have Truth 01-11 and Hondo 64-75

IMO Hondo definitely wasn't in his prime in '64, yet. He was a very inefficient scorer, actually even below league average in TS% between 1964 and 66. I'd say 1967 (66-67 season) to 1975 (1974-75) was his prime, so 9 seasons.
For Pierce, I agree that it's 2001-11, so 10.5 seasons (because like you noted, he missed almost a half of the 2006-07 season).


Anyway, I'd lean towards Havlicek, and that really says a lot, considering that I'm a big Truth fan. I agree with RSCD that Pierce's defense is generally underrated (clearly above average, career-wise), but Havlicek was one of the really elite wing defenders ever (even if he's a bit worse than Pippen, and I'm not even sure about that, he's still IMO top 3 or top 5). Offensively, Havlicek's peak seasons are IMO pretty underrated (especially 1971 and '72, but also 1970 and '73), especially considering how good he usually was in the playoffs. To be honest, I don't think there is any substantial difference between Havlicek and 70s NBA version of Rick Barry, as an overall offensive player (Barry was a little bit better, but I'd say that Hondo's defensive edge is bigger than Barry's offensive edge).