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Jimako10 wrote:I can't wait for Eduardo to bump this thread when the bulls hit win #60.
KingCuban wrote:mcfly1204 wrote:He is a facilitator more than a creator. Maybe we are getting into semantics, but it was a problem years ago back when Rose was healthy, and Chicago has not done anything to address their lack of creators.
Chicago hasn't done much to address the on ball creators based on dribble penetration, though having Pau and Noah as cogs within the offense, which will be a system based offense that will rely heavily on execution, something which we are very good at, we won't be playing much isolation basketball.
We're going to get scores from ball movement and a motion offense, and not by watching someone take a man off the dribble and going to work.
I am not saying we don't have a hole in the role you're suggesting, but that isn't the sole focus of the offense we run.
hands11 wrote:But thats not Rose's game. There is going to be a lot of adjusting the do.
hands11 wrote:Fair reply.
You seem open to the kind of input I provided and are at least willing to acknowledge there are challenges.
hands11 wrote:I did consider Butler as a wing defender, but that doesn't fix the issue really because of what you mentioned. That put who at SG then.. Kirk ? And the other two SF are in line with how I described them... i.e. Spot up shooters and one is a rookie, be it a good one. I pointed this out in part because it was a challenge the Wizards had last year. Wall was relied on a ton to run the offense and was most of their dribbling skills. Actually that was the case for several years up until they added Miller and Beal later in the year last year. With that set up, its really showed what the Wizards were lacking and its why they spent so much regular season possessions on Beal developing his ball handing skills which paid off in the playoffs, but wasn't efficient during the season. Had the Wizards just focused on what was efficient, instead of developing Beal, they could have won more regular season games. Turtle and the Hair. They went with Turtle. CHI would be short sighted to go the rout of the Hair.
hands11 wrote:Its a legit question to wonder how Rose changes his game to make it work as a whole and how well he will adapt to that. Last time he was a big part of the team, he was ball dominate and relied on a lot to score and handle the ball. I just don't see it as likely he can pull that off again and I think there will be at least a 25 game adjustment period of him finding him right balance. Maybe more. Its not like he is going to just blend in, score 25 pts, dish 9 dimes and Gasol will get 23 and 9. And, if he can't hit the 3 at least at a .350 clip, he isn't going to stretch the D.
hands11 wrote:If I was a defensive coach, I would sag on Rose, focus on Gasol and let Rose try to do it on his own. That's how some team played the Wizards. They ran under picks not over them and focus Wall to decide if he would take the shot or keep running the offense. I fully expect the Wizards to play them this way.
hands11 wrote:And as of today, Wizards are the better team having beat them 4-1 in the playoffs with 3 wins on the road. That mental advantage is huge. Having a better reg season record doesn't mean as much as head to head playoffs.
hands11 wrote:Plus, adding Rose running the show is a huge change from the role Noah played last year. Its not all going to be a net gain. Some of it is just changing roles. Its not all going to add to the top line. And efficiency matters.
UncleDrew wrote: I get Buckets!
TheOUTLAW wrote:Why do people need to make these PSA's to hype the Bulls? This is not a useful analysis at all.
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
KingCuban wrote:hands11 wrote:But thats not Rose's game. There is going to be a lot of adjusting the do.
The Chicago Bulls will not win anything substantial come playoff time if their offense is predicated on Derrick Rose isolations.
It's not going to happen, and some form of system has to been in place to support the individual offensive talents Rose provides.
Yes, there will be an adjustment period, but luckily for us, our defense and rebounding, not to mention a weak conference, will allow us to stay in games whilst we work things out.
hands11 wrote:Jimako10 wrote:I can't wait for Eduardo to bump this thread when the bulls hit win #60.
Actually, I think you will be waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
Until maybe 2015/2016
And even then its going to be tough because CLE will be better. So will the Wizards and TOR.
And NY once they have another year with cap.
And DET if they figure out the right moves regarding Monroe, Smith and Drum
The East is getting better. I don't see 60 wins in their cards any time soon.
EArl wrote:looks like its time to make my own offseason preview.
EArl wrote:looks like its time to make my own offseason preview.
Zane wrote:hands11 wrote:Jimako10 wrote:I can't wait for Eduardo to bump this thread when the bulls hit win #60.
Actually, I think you will be waiting, and waiting, and waiting.
Until maybe 2015/2016
And even then its going to be tough because CLE will be better. So will the Wizards and TOR.
And NY once they have another year with cap.
And DET if they figure out the right moves regarding Monroe, Smith and Drum
The East is getting better. I don't see 60 wins in their cards any time soon.
Toronto will not break 50 wins over the next 5 years.
Cliff Levingston wrote:hands11 wrote:Fair reply.
You seem open to the kind of input I provided and are at least willing to acknowledge there are challenges.
Smaller ones than you think. Rose was pretty terrible to start the season and last year and the Bulls started off ok. About games 9 and 10 is when he started to look a lot better and 10 is when he tore the meniscus. He's got these FIBA games under his belt now for the conditioning and knocking some rust off so he'll be further along.hands11 wrote:I did consider Butler as a wing defender, but that doesn't fix the issue really because of what you mentioned. That put who at SG then.. Kirk ? And the other two SF are in line with how I described them... i.e. Spot up shooters and one is a rookie, be it a good one. I pointed this out in part because it was a challenge the Wizards had last year. Wall was relied on a ton to run the offense and was most of their dribbling skills. Actually that was the case for several years up until they added Miller and Beal later in the year last year. With that set up, its really showed what the Wizards were lacking and its why they spent so much regular season possessions on Beal developing his ball handing skills which paid off in the playoffs, but wasn't efficient during the season. Had the Wizards just focused on what was efficient, instead of developing Beal, they could have won more regular season games. Turtle and the Hair. They went with Turtle. CHI would be short sighted to go the rout of the Hair.
You seem to only be able to relate things to the Wizards for some reason. Just because the Bulls won't have an elite defender at the 3 doesn't mean they won't be able to be elite defensively again. They rely on system defense that funnels wing players to the big men and Dunleavy was ok defensively. McDermott will need to pick up the system before he gets a lot of run but he's a smart kid: he'll probably pick it up by midseason if not earlier. So we won't have two elite wing defenders on the floor at all times: guess we're like just about every other team in the league in that respect.hands11 wrote:Its a legit question to wonder how Rose changes his game to make it work as a whole and how well he will adapt to that. Last time he was a big part of the team, he was ball dominate and relied on a lot to score and handle the ball. I just don't see it as likely he can pull that off again and I think there will be at least a 25 game adjustment period of him finding him right balance. Maybe more. Its not like he is going to just blend in, score 25 pts, dish 9 dimes and Gasol will get 23 and 9. And, if he can't hit the 3 at least at a .350 clip, he isn't going to stretch the D.
The last year Rose was somewhat healthy, which was '11-'12, he was far less ball dominant than you probably remember, mostly because he had Rip Hamilton at the 2 and not Keith Bogans. He hasn't played in 2 years since then minus the 10 games last year when he was out to prove something and never knocked the rust off. In college, he deferred almost too much, and since being with the Bulls, they haven't put much offense around him, forcing him to carry too much of the load. If Rose can hang back and distribute more than try to score, he will, and the Bulls have finally put some more offensive options around him in McDermott, Gasol and Mirotic mainly with Gibson and Noah being considerably better offensive players than a couple years back. Rose isn't the best guy in the world at distributing but you're not going to see the offense revolve around Rose driving and kicking every time down the floor which i what you seem to be hinting at. If we did that, then we'd have no reason to have got Gasol and we'd be neglecting one of the major advantages Joakim Noah gives us as the best passing and ball handling center in the NBA.
hands11 wrote:If I was a defensive coach, I would sag on Rose, focus on Gasol and let Rose try to do it on his own. That's how some team played the Wizards. They ran under picks not over them and focus Wall to decide if he would take the shot or keep running the offense. I fully expect the Wizards to play them this way.
Lots of people tried that in 2011 and it didn't really work. Again, we made it to the ECF only to lose to the Heat who basically triple teamed Rose every time down the floor and could get away with it thanks to the lack of other options and their incredible perimeter speed and ability defensively. Most teams can't do that. Provided Rose is healthy and knocks the rust off, he's a major upgrade to the offense over a guy like D.J. Augustin.
hands11 wrote:And as of today, Wizards are the better team having beat them 4-1 in the playoffs with 3 wins on the road. That mental advantage is huge. Having a better reg season record doesn't mean as much as head to head playoffs.
That series means almost nothing, really. For one, the Bulls outscored the Wizards with both Noah and Gibson on the floor with Boozer being the big liability and an extreme lack of depth at just about every other position. Beyond that, it was D.J. Augustin who got shut down because he's a very limited player, unlike Rose. The Bulls got a whole lot better than they were last year obviously assuming health, and that's even if McDermott is nothing more than a spot-up shooter.hands11 wrote:Plus, adding Rose running the show is a huge change from the role Noah played last year. Its not all going to be a net gain. Some of it is just changing roles. Its not all going to add to the top line. And efficiency matters.
It doesn't make any sense to say simply that "ok Rose is back, let's completely ignore all the good things we did offensively when he was out." That's not going to happen. We'll still be able to run offense through Noah in the high post with Rose moving off the ball. With Rose back, Noah's passing ability, Gasol's high to low post ability and McDermott's offensive skills, Thibodeau's got so much more to work with now and can throw many more offensive looks at you than he was able to last year or pre-ACL Rose.
All in all, sure, the Bulls have some question marks, #1 being Rose's continued health. Cliff Levingston actually isn't really worried at all about him knocking the rust off. By 20 games in, he should be rolling pretty well, and by the end of the season, have it all working again going into the playoffs. He works too hard not to get back to where he was before provided he's healthy. It's avoiding that next big knee injury. It's possible that his body just can't hold up to the stress he puts on it. Hard to predict that: we can't assume he will or won't get injured at this point.
Beyond that, adding Gasol is a bigger move for this team than most people think. Look at the myriad of things Gasol went through in L.A. the last few years. He was essentially traded for Chris Paul which reportedly damaged his confidence in the team, and call him soft if you will but we saw the same thing happen with Luol Deng when the rumors were swirling about him possibly getting traded for Gasol back in the day. Those kinds of things can put guys in a funk. After that, he had to play out of position to accomodate Dwight Howard in the post so his game was minimized and that Laker team in general was all messed up, especially with the worst NBA coach in recent memory at the helm: D'antoni. Last year, he battled injuries on a bad team without Kobe playing for that terrible coach who'd rather have Gasol taking corner threes than actually being the great finesse post player you can run offense through on the low block. And through that, he still managed to put up some big numbers. We saw how Gasol looked far less than he was capable in Memphis, then was traded to L.A. surrounded by other good players and was a key part to two championship teams. We're not expecting that level of play from him and he won't have to play big minutes with the strength of our front court, but he's going to be a considerable improvement over Boozer for his versatility offensively, ability to key an offense, length and better defense.
Some others notes:
- McDermott is an exciting player for the Bulls. There's no team in the NBA he fits better. He's the most NBA ready guy coming out. He's not perfect, but he's exactly what the Bulls need: a lights-out shooter who can score in a variety of different ways. He's a coaches' son so he'll fit Thibs' culture perfectly. And Thibs was aching for the guy in the draft after watching him play for the USA select team, and Thibs is a guy who eats, sleeps and **** basketball.
- Jimmy Butler was run into the ground last year while battling an early turf toe injury that probably lingered for much of the season. He was still an elite wing defender but his shooting fell off a cliff. With the improved depth on the wing mostly via McDermott and possibly Snell spelling him off the bench along with Rose being able to get his guys better looks, Cliff Levingston thinks Jimmy's shot will get back to that respectable level it was the year prior.
- A lot of Bulls fans are over hyping Mirotic too much. Maybe not the player he is or can be, but what his impact will be. He'll probably only get 12-14 minutes a game, if that, which is a limited time to make an impact. Nonetheless, he's an exciting prospect to bring along and gives the Bulls the potential to put some dynamic lineups out there offensively with his shooting, driving and passing ability.. something we might be able to roll out more effectively toward the end of the season entering the playoffs.
At the end of the day though, it's all about Rose. If things go well and Rose stays healthy, the Bulls will be in the title picture. If Rose goes down or a considerable amount of other important players go down, then they won't and they'll fall back to under 50 wins easy. All that said, the Cliff Levingston is looking for between 55 and 58 wins. The defense and rebounding will continue to be elite which always keeps teams in games during the regular season and allows them to pull a lot of them out. Combine that with how the Bulls can roll at least 3 deep with very high quality big men, none of which are a significant liability on either end of the floor, and most teams are going to have a tough time hanging with the Bulls night in and night out. The playoffs are more of a worry against Cleveland who'll have so many ways to beat you offensively and Cliff Levingston would still put Cleveland as the favorite to come out of the East.
hands11 wrote:Well then. Everything I wrote was wrong and everything you wrote was right.
You are brilliant.
CHI wins 60 and makes it to the title game.
As for McDermott. I am well aware of who McDermott is.
hands11 wrote:KingCuban wrote:hands11 wrote:But thats not Rose's game. There is going to be a lot of adjusting the do.
The Chicago Bulls will not win anything substantial come playoff time if their offense is predicated on Derrick Rose isolations.
It's not going to happen, and some form of system has to been in place to support the individual offensive talents Rose provides.
Yes, there will be an adjustment period, but luckily for us, our defense and rebounding, not to mention a weak conference, will allow us to stay in games whilst we work things out.
Thats more in line with what I see.
Question is, how slow of a start will they have ?
CLE, WAS, TOR I expect to get off the quick starts and CHI will be facing West teams as well. I also think BRK could get off to the quick start.
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/schedule/_/ ... cago-bulls
Lucky for CHI, they have some easier games to start the year.
They have a nice 5 game stretch of MIN, ORL, MIL, PHI, BOS that should all be wins. Its going to come down to how do they do against CLE, NY and DET but their schedule to start the year is pretty easy so they should actually be ok.
They should be able to stick around .500 through NOV and they will need a buffer better then that because DEC is a lot tougher.
Kobe System wrote:I won't touch Drummond's contract. I'd rather have Deng and Mozgov's contract tbh.
Collymore wrote:Jay Tatum is a better prospect than Lebron James was at his age.
Most analysts agree Bulls will be contenders. Also, most Bulls fans in this thread give CLE the edge in a series, including myself. I don't see much dreaming.Catalysm wrote:Keep dreaming Bulls fans...
Sounds like you should do a Wizards preview. No green. Put the work in instead of being snarky. I thought you guys had a good back and forth until you got all upset.hands11 wrote:Dude, you should do a
Cliff's Offseason Preview - Chicago Bulls
I'm sure it would be stellar.